EPTLR Thread Recommended Game Polls Discussion Thread - Page 4
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KristofferAG
Norway25712 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) ★★★ - Good game (8) ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars? On August 06 2013 05:55 vult wrote: Hey how does one make a 5 star poll? Just copy and paste the stars from a pre-made poll. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:23 juicyjames wrote: + Show Spoiler + If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example: Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) ★★★ - Good game (8) ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars? Just copy and paste the stars from a pre-made poll. Thanks, someone told me a numpad code but i have a 10-keyless so i cant do those XD | ||
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ibo422
Belgium2844 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:23 juicyjames wrote: If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example: Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) ★★★ - Good game (8) ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars? Just count 4 and 5 stars together? 4 and 5 stars both are recommending the game. In the example above, it would be 89%. | ||
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:26 Entirety wrote: Well that was an average rating of 4.43. Why not say that the average rating has to be 4 or greater? Unless I'm missing an automatic way of calculating the average star rating without doing it manually, I have no desire to do the math for every single poll I come across. On August 06 2013 06:37 ibo422 wrote: Just count 4 and 5 stars together? 4 and 5 stars both are recommending the game. In the example above, it would be 89%. This is actually quite a reasonable solution that I didn't think of. Thanks! | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
Thing is, most people don't vote on every poll. There has to be something very interesting to push the lurkers into actually voting, even if it's only a 1-star or No vote. Those games are interesting to me. And usually, high rated games have higher numbers of voters. In fact, I wouldn't mind if there were Recommend type polls with only one option: Yes. The people that don't like the game simply won't vote. No one actually votes 'No' except for the very few honest voters and the odd hater. Look at every single LR thread. Shitty or average games have 30% of the votes as the good ones. My preferred polls would be a criteria based poll, and a single option 'Yes' poll. The criteria based one for actual information for what type of game it was; "Long Game with Few Battles" is a lot more useful than "If you have time". I'd also like to see the polls as a link put into one of those headers that appear at the top of the page, instead of hidden within the thread. When threads are moving fast, it's hard to find the poll to vote on it, no matter how many times you guys spam it. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:22 Yello wrote: Poll: Recommend Naniwa vs Tefel Game 1? ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (33) ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (25) ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (20) ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (10) ★★★ - Good game (6) 94 total votes Your vote: Recommend Naniwa vs Tefel Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season EDITED TO ADD MORE: This system is TERRIBLE (IMHO), because people have good incentive to vote for higher star numbers for different reason to them being good games (me included). The previous system did not hint at the quality of the games as much and simply recommended watching them, avoiding them or watching them so long as you don't have limited time. 5 star rating systems aren't needed here and I think they detract. What's more, what is "5 star" is entirely subjective. I don't just mean taste in games, but how good they must be. THis applies to movies, music, gymnastics (who am I kidding, it's always rigged to be too generous to Russia + whoever the host nation is :"() etc. Some people only use 5 stars for the very best 1-5 movies/whatever. Others use the 5 star scale as a real scale of basically how good it is from 1 to 5, where 5 has to be great, enjoyable to rewatch and a favourite, but nt necessarily one of the absolute best movies/songs/albums ever made (my approach). The numbers are too subjective anyway, in that you might be inclined to just pay attention to the most popular vote, but end up voting (after seeing it) very differently to the most popular choice. You can see polls with 2 and 5 as the most popular results and wonder what it's supposed to mean. Is it bad but some people found it amusing? If so, will I find it amusing enough to feel glad I watched it? You can't know. It's not very useful, it's just adding complexity that can't necessarily be interpreted usefully. If the most popular poll option was "Recommended" but the players were Proleague B-teamers, it can hint that they really played very well, or otherwise a lot of people found it really worth watching for some unusually amusing/creative reason, in which case, you too will probably want to watch it, unless you only care about watching the very best, but then, if it IS an amazingly high-level game, you'll probably find out about it later, so you can choose not to watch it now, seeing as someone is then BOUND to show it to you later anyway if it's so good. I find it easier to get those sorts of gists about whether to watch something without the star ratings that can mean so many different things. Good old Recommended/Don't Watch/Watch if you have time has worked well for a while and I've been glad it's been that way in the LR threads for Proleague, WCS and GSTL. It made it simple to decide wether you want ed to watch something if you missed the live show. You would pay attention to the polls, unless you already knew you wanted to watch all games. You would watch whichever specific games you knew you wanted to watch regardless of the polls. The polls were useful for anything you were unsure about and willing to let be decided by polls. Please don't do a Microsoft/Google/Hotmail and force certain bad changes on us with no options because you happen to see them as good (I'm thinking of the TL interface changes in the top left too now though). :"( | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:41 juicyjames wrote: Unless I'm missing an automatic way of calculating the average star rating without doing it manually, I have no desire to do the math for every single poll I come across. This is actually quite a reasonable solution that I didn't think of. Thanks! Yeah we really need a way for polls to tally the results automatically. If we don't tally the results it defeats the purpose of using 5-star polls. I will ask waxy to ask R1CH if it is possible. If it isn't then 5-star is pointless to use. The game in question is easy to recommend because most of the votes were in 5 and 4 stars, but more even results require more calculation. That game can be gauged by just looking at 4 and 5 stars, and 89% comes out close to the 89.1% that it actually is. But it won't cut it for games with a lot of 3s. If it turns out we can't find a way to auto-tally, I believe the advantages of 5-star become moot. On August 06 2013 07:29 Fishgle wrote: I haven't seen anyone mention this, but I often look not at the actual rating, but the number of people that voted in the poll. Thing is, most people don't vote on every poll. There has to be something very interesting to push the lurkers into actually voting, even if it's only a 1-star or No vote. Those games are interesting to me. And usually, high rated games have higher numbers of voters. In fact, I wouldn't mind if there were Recommend type polls with only one option: Yes. The people that don't like the game simply won't vote. No one actually votes 'No' except for the very few honest voters and the odd hater. Look at every single LR thread. Shitty or average games have 30% of the votes as the good ones. My preferred polls would be a criteria based poll, and a single option 'Yes' poll. The criteria based one for actual information for what type of game it was; "Long Game with Few Battles" is a lot more useful than "If you have time". I'd also like to see the polls as a link put into one of those headers that appear at the top of the page, instead of hidden within the thread. When threads are moving fast, it's hard to find the poll to vote on it, no matter how many times you guys spam it. Yeah we've noticed that voter turnout is just as indicative of game quality as the actual votes. The problem is it's difficult to tell between 'uninteresting games therefore no one voted' and 'games weren't seen by a lot of people therefore few votes'. WCS AM LR thread polls usually have this problem, as well as Up & Down matches. The games are actually of good quality but not a lot of people vote on these polls. Seeing a match with 8 Yeses and nothing else doesn't really reveal the game's quality, since you don't know why the other people didn't vote. It could have been an amazing game that few people just bothered to see or vote on. Seeing a game with 8 5-stars is more informative than a Y/N/I with 8 yeses. Again, both styles have pros and cons, but I don't believe Y/N/I solves the problem of low voter turnouts. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:48 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: EDITED TO ADD MORE: This system is TERRIBLE (IMHO), because people have good incentive to vote for higher star numbers for different reason to them being good games (me included). The previous system did not hint at the quality of the games as much and simply recommended watching them, avoiding them or watching them so long as you don't have limited time. 5 star rating systems aren't needed here and I think they detract. What's more, what is "5 star" is entirely subjective. I don't just mean taste in games, but how good they must be. THis applies to movies, music, gymnastics (who am I kidding, it's always rigged to be too generous to Russia + whoever the host nation is :"() etc. Some people only use 5 stars for the very best 1-5 movies/whatever. Others use the 5 star scale as a real scale of basically how good it is from 1 to 5, where 5 has to be great, enjoyable to rewatch and a favourite, but nt necessarily one of the absolute best movies/songs/albums ever made (my approach). The numbers are too subjective anyway, in that you might be inclined to just pay attention to the most popular vote, but end up voting (after seeing it) very differently to the most popular choice. You can see polls with 2 and 5 as the most popular results and wonder what it's supposed to mean. Is it bad but some people found it amusing? If so, will I find it amusing enough to feel glad I watched it? You can't know. It's not very useful, it's just adding complexity that can't necessarily be interpreted usefully. If the most popular poll option was "Recommended" but the players were Proleague B-teamers, it can hint that they really played very well, or otherwise a lot of people found it really worth watching for some unusually amusing/creative reason, in which case, you too will probably want to watch it, unless you only care about watching the very best, but then, if it IS an amazingly high-level game, you'll probably find out about it later, so you can choose not to watch it now, seeing as someone is then BOUND to show it to you later anyway if it's so good. I find it easier to get those sorts of gists about whether to watch something without the star ratings that can mean so many different things. Good old Recommended/Don't Watch/Watch if you have time has worked well for a while and I've been glad it's been that way in the LR threads for Proleague, WCS and GSTL. It made it simple to decide wether you want ed to watch something if you missed the live show. You would pay attention to the polls, unless you already knew you wanted to watch all games. You would watch whichever specific games you knew you wanted to watch regardless of the polls. The polls were useful for anything you were unsure about and willing to let be decided by polls. Please don't do a Microsoft/Google/Hotmail and force certain bad changes on us with no options because you happen to see them as good (I'm thinking of the TL interface changes in the top left too now though). :"( You need to read the thread before you post your opinion because a lot of what you have said has already been discussed or explained either in the OP or by succeeding posts. The gist is, the reason 5-star is having a trial period is that it is more informative, and should result in more accurate polls. There is just as much subjectivity in 5-star as Y/N/I. The difference is that while people who disliked a game because of bias may vote a straight "NO" in Y/N/I, 5-star allows them some leeway to give partial points with a 2 or 3. It's a far more forgiving recommendation system. Again, it also has its disadvantages, and that's why we are giving it a trial to see if the hypothetical weaknesses really manifest. So far, the 5-star plus description polls have received more positive reactions, and the results for most games look promising. The problem is in the games you are looking at: 2 love/hate players against each other. No matter the poll type, the results will not look very 'logical'. That's the nature of subjective polls. Players that have great positive or negative bias effects will always get weird results. Had it been Y/N/I, it would have been split near 50/50. That's not as informative as the current poll. The other problems that you state occur with 5-star also occur in Y/N/I. We've done these polls enough to know that. Neither recommendation system is perfect, and that's why we are trying them out and asking the forums which they prefer. Your preference is noted. And no we are not dictatorially enacting this change. It's a test to see if it's any good and so far people have liked it. That's why we have this thread to discuss it. If we wanted to "do a Microsoft/Google/Hotmail and force certain bad changes" we wouldn't have allowed discussion. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On August 02 2013 17:14 tl2212 wrote: I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not. + Show Spoiler + Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? High level of play (1) High entertainment value (1) None, not recommended (1) Awesome build orders (0) Sick sick micro (0) 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes. However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could  its awesome how much you guys care about the community here  when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1? BISOUUUU (1) GAWWWDD (0) Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either :( (0) 1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU pretty sure everyone will watch it | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 15:53 Arceus wrote: when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1? BISOUUUU (1) GAWWWDD (0) Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either  (0)1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU pretty sure everyone will watch it When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On August 08 2013 15:56 lichter wrote: When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me I got warned when trying "exciting" polls too xD | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
The issue I see with that is that a lot of games are good. Within that group for example I liked HasuObs' series against Mvp as well but I'd say him vs Grubby was better. I'd still vote "yes" for both though and that's where the distinction between a good game and an amazing game is lost. I don't want to be told why exactly they're good however as that just takes away a lot of the excitement when watching a game for the first time. 5 stars is a good middle ground I feel as long as people don't get caught up in the moment of "OMG that was amazing!" and take a second to evaluate how good it actually was. As for builds/level of play/slugfest options, etc. that could be implemented as an additional poll for those who want to but I don't think it should be the main one. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 16:08 Arceus wrote: I got warned when trying "exciting" polls too xD I think by now people know I'd prefer personalized polls and OPs, but monk will just warn me again x( Also juicyjames will kill me | ||
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Yello
Germany7411 Posts
Poll: Recommended Games Polls? new 5-star with explanation polls (83) Old Yes/No/Ifyouhavetime polls (53) 136 total votes Your vote: Recommended Games Polls? (Vote): Old Yes/No/Ifyouhavetime polls examples: + Show Spoiler [5-star] + Poll: Recommend Mvp vs Ret Game 1? ★★★ - Good game (47) ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (11) ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (8) ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (5) ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3) 74 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mvp vs Ret Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] + I'll just keep posting this in the next few LRs. I personally prefer the 5-star polls for exactly the reasons Olli just posted | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50749 Posts
On August 08 2013 15:56 lichter wrote: When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me never use personalized polls in the OP, outside of that its acceptable. on topic: I have not read the entire thread so if someone already made this point I apologize. honestly people forget that recommendation polls are not for the live viewers and hope that they do let go of their bias towards their favorite player/race, its for the people who can't watch live. the stars format caters better to live viewers and how they deem the game to be, while the people who don't have time to watch live are like "so is it worth watching?do I have to take the average and see if its really worth watching?", unless of course the game is really fucking good or really fucking bad. the reason why yes/no/if you have time works is that its simple and more clear, one look at the poll and you know if its worth the little time that you have to watch. I don't care if stars become normal, I'm not going to make it hard for those who can't watch, so when I'm LRing I'll do what I want like I always have. | ||
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