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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
The LR Crew and I are currently in the process reevaluating our current recommended games polling system while also finding ways to improve it. We have been debating it for a while, whether to keep the traditional Yes/No/If you have time polls or shift towards a 5-star style of polls (some people use different methods already), and I think it is time to get some community feedback about it. After all, the LR thread is a community resource and venue for discussion, and many people use recommended game polls to determine which VODs to watch when they can't see the games live. The recommendation system is a unique service that LR Threads and the LR thread community provide so it is always in our best interest to find ways to improve it. Hopefully you can help us determine how.
TL;DR: Trying to find the best ways to improve recommended game polls
Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
+ Show Spoiler + Right now, the recommendation system is... ok. It's kinda useful and people support it. However, I think it has shortcomings in accuracy, and I think we can make improvements in that regard.
The current method is the simplest and most direct, and only asks whether the game is recommended or not. However, this style of polling does not determine just how good a game is, only if it is good or not. This means that many games of varying quality get close to the same 'rating' (which is, right now, the percentage of people recommending the game). Many good, enjoyable games get close to 90%-100% recommended. Amazing, exciting, enjoyable games also score in that range.
An example of this is Solar vs Rain on Newkirk and Flash vs Fantasy on Neo Planet S. The former game was an excellent build order counter but a straight forward stomp, while the latter game was exciting, back and forth, had excellent build orders and a revelatory use of widow mines. No argument necessary; Flash vs Fantasy was the superior game. But both games scored similarly based on the Yes/No/If you have time recommendation system. It's a minor gripe, but you can see the inaccuracy from that extreme example. There is little distinction between good and great games.
This does not mean, however, that the Y/N/I style needs to be changed; it also has its advantages which will be discussed below. However as there are alternative methods of polling available, we should consider if any of them are improvements, or if we can draw clues on how to fashion a better system based on a discussion of each system and our own preferences.
There is also an accessory goal of standardizing all the polls. Right now, there are people who use different methods, which isn't a problem since we've yet to determine the polling style that's 'best' or most preferred. However, it is preferred that all LR threads use a standardized style of polling so that
1.) we can create some form of "Recommended Games" thread or liquipedia page, that can list down the most highly rated games by category, matchup, map, tournament, etc. and having a standardized poll will make comparing games easier;
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended;
and 3.) anyone else interested in using the recommended games in some way (to analyze patterns or games, to create some service, etc) will have an easier time comparing the games.
Another problem that we would like to try and solve (possibly through improving the polls) is the low voter turnout compared to the number of people watching or posting in the thread. The fewer the votes the more inaccurate the poll. Trying to come up with some super cool super accurate poll will be useless if we don't get better voter turnouts, especially for tournaments like WCS AM which bizarrely don't get many votes. Remember, this is a community resource created by the community; you are the resource, and if you don't vote, we have nothing. So if you aren't voting already, please start voting more on recommended game polls. You can also discuss your ideas to improve voter turnout in this thread.
TL;DR: Recommended games polls can be improved. We need to improve voter turnout. Maybe we can bug TL to make recommended game ratings more useful.
Before we get on to discussion, we need to talk about the different polling systems and their known pros and cons.
The Different Polling Systems
There are 4 current polling systems and 1 hypothetical polling system that may be implemented if we bug R1CH or the admins enough. Each system has their advantages and disadvantages, and we are aware of most of them. Unfortunately there is no 'perfect' system that we can find. That's why we are presenting you with the available options so that you can understand them better, and you can explain your preferences better knowing them. Perhaps, some of you may be able to find some form of compromise we haven't thought of or some new hybrid polling method. Also note that if you have ideas on a completely different type of poll that currently can't be implemented on TL, please tell us about it because we might be able to get it to work somehow, or perhaps use it to improve what we have. Now on to the polling systems.
+ Show Spoiler [Yes/No/If you have time] +1. Yes/No/If you have time+ Show Spoiler [Example of Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend Fionn vs Polt Game 1?Yes (5) 45% No (4) 36% If you have time (2) 18% 11 total votes Your vote: Recommend Fionn vs Polt Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
: The Y/N/I poll asks whether a game is recommended or not. Yes if the voter thinks the game should be recommended, no if not. If you have time is an option available for games that were of acceptable quality or entertainment value but not necessary viewing. Raison d'être: This is the simplest and most direct possible poll. Pros: - Simplest and easiest to vote on; requires the least thought
- Encourages voting because it is easy to vote on
- Fewer choices = data less spread out, making it less affected by low vote counts or small sample size
- The question is less affected by personal bias
- Allows poll maker some level of creativity since "If you have time" can be replaced with more insightful options
Cons: - The rating for Good games and Great games is relatively small
- The question only asks if the game is good, not how good it is
- Many games can be recommended for different reasons; poll does not reveal much
- The ratings are inaccurate
- The choices are too polarized, while the middle ground can be ambiguous
Personal Opinion: This style is the standard for a reason: it's the simplest and people have gotten used to it. It's the status quo, and so far it's been doing alright. A lot of people prefer it, and we've tried implementing change before, but a lot of people are resistant to change. This is the 'safe' choice despite its deficiencies as an accurate method.
+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +2. 5-star+ Show Spoiler [Example of 5-star] +Poll: Recommend Wintex vs Bomber Game 1?★★★★★ (4) 40% ★★ (3) 30% ★★★★ (1) 10% ★★★ (1) 10% ★ (1) 10% 10 total votes Your vote: Recommend Wintex vs Bomber Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
: The 5-star system asks voters to 'rate' the game's quality (averaged out through all the different aspects of 'game quality') out of 5 stars. 5 stars for amazing games, 1 star for worst game of all time. Raison d'être: This style aims to provide more accuracy compared to Y/N/I, as the options can be averaged out to provide a more accurate rating. Pros: - More choices should mean voter opinions are more accurately presented
- Games can be distinguished better due to more distinct scores and are easier to rank and arrange
- Votes already present can influence the way we vote (for example, we may try to 'even it out' if we disagree with the results, or just vote with the majority)
- Still a relatively simple system that requires only a little more thought than Y/N/I
- Vote distribution can be insightful. For example, a lot of 5's and 1's could mean the game was brilliant but painful to watch, or it was some well executed cheese. However this advantage only reveals itself when the data is studied in detail, and gets lost (and even gets problematic) when scores are merely averaged.
Cons: - Games can be recommended for various reasons, and people often vote 5 even when only 1 criteria deserves it, instead of averaging out scores based on criteria
- The question is inherently more subjective
- People tend to vote in extremes, 5 or 1, and don't often think about choosing a more precise rating, defeating the purpose of this type of poll
- Problematic when there is a lack of votes, as the greater number of options in a small sample size increases variance and randomness
- The question can still be vague; Does it ask about Game quality? Entertainment value? Level of play? People might answer the poll in different ways, leading to an inaccurate poll
Personal Opinion: 5-star is generally an improvement over Y/N/I, if only we could remove the variance from small sample sizes (vote more!!) and have people think about their ratings more. We are currently trying to use this more to see if the results are really more accurate and informative than Y/N/I.
+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +3. Criteria-based+ Show Spoiler [Example of Criteria-based] +Poll: What would you recommend in lichter vs YugiOh Game 1?Level of Play and Entertainment Value (2) 40% Sick Micro (1) 20% Entertainment Value and Build Order (1) 20% None (1) 20% Level of Play (0) 0% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in lichter vs YugiOh Game 1? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
: Voters choose the reason/s the game can be recommended or if it isn't recommended at all. Raison d'être: This type of poll can show us why a game is good or why it should be seen, information that may be relevant to many. Pros: - People can know why the game is good, and why they should see it
- People looking for particular types of games will have an easier time looking for what they want
- People who would otherwise rate a game badly can compliment the game for one aspect which it excels at (for example, people who would rate cheeses badly can still approve of the build order)
- It becomes possible to rank and compare games based on the different criteria
- Far more informative than any other poll type
Cons: - The most complicated type of poll that requires the most thinking, which could dissuade people from thinking about their votes or voting at all, it's confusing as fuck
- Difficult to collate the data (since there are overlaps) for use
- It's an unfamiliar form of polling that people may not be comfortable with
- Results and their implications can be difficult to understand at first glance (due to overlapping options)
- Has some of the drawbacks of Y/N/I polls, such as lack of distinction between good and great games (if the games are good/great at all criteria), polarized options, and lack of a 'score'
- This type of poll can act as a spoiler. For example, games with low level of play but high entertainment and micro indicate it is likely a cheesey game. Polls should not contain spoilers as much as possible.
Personal Opinion: I believe this is the most informative type of poll, but it is far too complicated for casual viewers. Understanding the results are also difficult with the way polls are made on TL. It's super confusing. Unless checkbox polls become available, this type of poll is unlikely to be practical. This is what it would look like if we could use hybrid radio/checkbox polls: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1uLBGwx.png) So you'd get info such as 85% Yes 80% Level of Play 80% Entertainment value 50% Build Orders 60% Sick Micro 15 % No You'd know that 85% of people recommend the game, and a lot of people do so because of the level of play and the game's entertainment value. It's also possible to no click any checkboxes, so it is just as simple as Y/N/I with the added option of recommending something in particular.
+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +4. Dual Poll+ Show Spoiler [Example of Dual Poll] +Poll: Level of Play of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1?★★★★★ (3) 60% ★★★ (1) 20% ★ (1) 20% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1?★★★★★ (2) 50% ★★★ (1) 25% ★ (1) 25% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
: There are two polls, one for Level of Play and one for Entertainment Value. These are the most important criteria when recommending games. Voters rate each criterion out of 5. Raison d'être: A compromise between 5-star and Criteria-based polls. The two most important criteria are chosen to be rated for greater accuracy. Pros: - Informative yet simple enough to understand; a good compromise
- The two most important criteria are given priority making the poll more accurate
- 2 scores are given per game, allowing us to differentiate each game more when ranking and rating
- People can use each criteria when determining whether they want to see it or not
- Vote distribution can be insightful with the aforementioned caveats
Cons: - 2 polls take more effort to do and more effort to vote on; may dissuade voters from thinking or voting
- Still omits some important criteria
- Takes up a lot of space on pages and in the OP
- Requires a lot of thinking because 5-star ratings need to be given to each criterion
- Problematic when there is a lack of votes
Personal Opinion: This type of poll is a good compromise between the accuracy and simplicity of 5-star polls, and the insightfulness and useability of criteria-based polls. It's difficult to make and vote on, but could be worth it if everyone likes it.
+ Show Spoiler [Blog-star] +5. Blog-star+ Show Spoiler [Example of Blog-star] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p6wk5xK.jpg) Like this. But Nicer?: Basically like 5-star polls, but similar to the one we have in the Blogs section. The distribution of votes is invisible. Raison d'être: Our votes can be affected by the votes already present. This type of poll hides that influence and allows us to form our own opinion. Pros: - Basically the same list of pros as 5-star
- Votes are less influenced by vote distribution
- Results are instantly averaged, instantly useful
- Clicking on a star is more fun and easier than clicking on "Vote" beside a bunch of stars
- Looks more attractive
Cons: - Basically the same list of cons as 5-star, with a smaller influence from vote distribution
- Stars are tiny, might be difficult to see
- The exact score cannot be seen, and anyone hoping to use exact scores for whatever purpose may have difficult trying to figure out the number (can be solved with an alt of the score)
- Currently unavailable, so we don't know how well it would work in practice
Personal Opinion: This is the best looking type of poll, and it has its advantages. Unfortunately we can't do this right now. If we could, and we know it is possible since blogs have it, maybe we can look into it further and apply it to the above types of polls.
Other possible polling systems that I did not consider
1. Must See / Worth Seeing / If you have time / Not Recommended
2. Highly Recommended / Recommended / No opinion / Not Recommended
3. Sheeps ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SjCYG1Z.png)
Those are the 5 possibilities that we can come up with. They have their advantages and disadvantages, and hopefully it was an insightful read for you that will help you formulate your opinion. If you have additional pros or cons, please explain them and if they are good and distinct enough I will edit them into this list.
Study on Voting Rationale
People vote for different options for different reasons. Some prioritize gameplay. Some prioritize entertainment value. Others recommend games where their favorite player, race, or team wins. It's important we understand what people consider the most important factors in their decisions. Recommending games is a subjective matter, but we often have polls with results of extreme polarity. We would like to remove the useless biases (ex. favorite player vs hated player) from the polls, if at all possible since that is useless information. The following are polls that will ask you to rate the importance of several factors. It will help us identify how to remove undesirable bias and voting anomalies.
Importance of _____ in your voting decisions (5 for greatly positive effect, 1 for greatly negative effect, 3 for no effect):
1. Great Gameplay
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Great Gameplay?★★★★★ (20) 67% ★★★★ (9) 30% ★★★ (1) 3% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 30 total votes Your vote: Effect of Great Gameplay? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
2. High Entertainment Value
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of High Entertainment Value?★★★★★ (26) 84% ★★★★ (3) 10% ★★★ (1) 3% ★★ (1) 3% ★ (0) 0% 31 total votes Your vote: Effect of High Entertainment Value? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
3. Closeness of Game
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Closeness of Game?★★★★ (11) 38% ★★★ (9) 31% ★★★★★ (8) 28% ★★ (1) 3% ★ (0) 0% 29 total votes Your vote: Effect of Closeness of Game? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
4. Interesting Build Orders
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Interesting Build Orders?★★★ (12) 43% ★★★★ (8) 29% ★★★★★ (3) 11% ★★ (3) 11% ★ (2) 7% 28 total votes Your vote: Effect of Interesting Build Orders? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
5. Great Multitasking and Micro
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Great Multitasking and Micro?★★★★★ (16) 59% ★★★★ (8) 30% ★★★ (3) 11% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 27 total votes Your vote: Effect of Great Multitasking and Micro? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
6. Favorite Player/Team/Race Loses
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Favorite Player/Team/Race Losing?★ (11) 41% ★★ (7) 26% ★★★ (6) 22% ★★★★ (3) 11% ★★★★★ (0) 0% 27 total votes Your vote: Effect of Favorite Player/Team/Race Losing? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
7. Hated Player/Team/Race Loses
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Hated Player/Team/Race Losing?★ (10) 38% ★★★ (7) 27% ★★ (6) 23% ★★★★★ (2) 8% ★★★★ (1) 4% 26 total votes Your vote: Effect of Hated Player/Team/Race Losing? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
8. Presence of Cheese
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Presence of Cheese?★ (10) 36% ★★ (9) 32% ★★★ (4) 14% ★★★★ (4) 14% ★★★★★ (1) 4% 28 total votes Your vote: Effect of Presence of Cheese? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
9. Presence of All-in
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Presence of All-in?★★★ (10) 38% ★★ (7) 27% ★ (7) 27% ★★★★ (2) 8% ★★★★★ (0) 0% 26 total votes Your vote: Effect of Presence of All-in? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
10. Presence of Base Trade
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Effect of Presence of Base Trade?★ (9) 35% ★★★ (8) 31% ★★★★ (4) 15% ★★ (4) 15% ★★★★★ (1) 4% 26 total votes Your vote: Effect of Presence of Base Trade? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Study on Voting Patterns for Different Types of Game in Different Systems
Now that we know about the different poll styles and understand how people vote, I think it is important that we see how their results look when compared side by side. This can help us see how the community votes on different types of games given different types of polls. We'll be able to see if some polls are more accurate or more informative than others. Unfortunately we can't retroactively change poll types and we have no historical data to look at. So, you have to vote on 45 polls (5x9). :D
Obviously, I won't ask about games that are universally good nor universally bad. We will look at games that often give the strangest or most disparate poll results.
1. High Level, Boring Macro Game
+ Show Spoiler +Description: Both players play amazing, both players do well, but the games goes long and nothing much happens. Sample Game: Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind, SPL + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?Yes (5) 56% If you have time (3) 33% No (1) 11% 9 total votes Your vote: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?★★★★ (4) 57% ★★★ (2) 29% ★★★★★ (1) 14% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 7 total votes Your vote: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?Level of Play (3) 50% Level of Play and Build Order (2) 33% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (1) 17% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% None (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?★★★★★ (3) 50% ★★★★ (3) 50% ★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?★★★ (2) 33% ★★ (2) 33% ★★★★★ (1) 17% ★★★★ (1) 17% ★ (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
2. Horribad but Entertaining Game
+ Show Spoiler +Description: Terribly played game by both players, with horrible strats, execution, and game sense. However the game ends up being hilarious and exciting. Sample Game: MKP vs Bbyong on Anaconda, Code A Ro24 No free VOD Basically it's similar to the legendary TheBest vs Min game on Crossfire + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?Yes (3) 60% No (1) 20% If you have time (1) 20% 5 total votes Your vote: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?★★★★★ (2) 40% ★★★ (2) 40% ★★★★ (1) 20% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?Entertainment Value (2) 50% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (1) 25% None (1) 25% Level of Play (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?★★ (3) 75% ★ (1) 25% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?★★★★★ (3) 75% ★★★★ (1) 25% ★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
3. Excellent Safe Play, Deathball into GG
+ Show Spoiler +Description: Both players play great, all harassment fails, and then both players move out. Armies clash, gg. Sample Game: I don't think you need a sample for this lol or if you can help me think of a good one that's loved/hated + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG?If you have time (4) 80% No (1) 20% Yes (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG★★★ (4) 57% ★★ (2) 29% ★★★★ (1) 14% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 7 total votes Your vote: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in High Level Deathball Into GG?Level of Play (2) 40% None (2) 40% Level of Play and Build Order (1) 20% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in High Level Deathball Into GG? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of High Level Deathball Into GG?★★★ (2) 50% ★★★★ (2) 50% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of High Level Deathball Into GG? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of High Level Deathball Into GG?★ (3) 60% ★★ (2) 40% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★ (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of High Level Deathball Into GG? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
4. Clever Build Order Stomp
+ Show Spoiler +Description: One player does a quirky, unconventional build to intentionally snipe the other player. The game is a stomp and hardly contested, and it's essentially a build order win, but the build order is interesting. Sample Game: Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, SPL + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct?Yes (5) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct★★★★ (5) 83% ★★★ (1) 17% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Pr?Build Order and Micro (3) 60% Level of Play and Build Order (2) 40% Level of Play (0) 0% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% None (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Pr? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct?★★★★ (5) 100% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinc?★★★★ (3) 60% ★★★ (2) 40% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 5 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinc? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
5. Exquisite Cheese
+ Show Spoiler +Description: Exquisite cheese of the finest quality. Unconventional, well executed... but we all hate cheese right? Sample Game: HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes, SPL + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?Yes (3) 100% No (0) 0% If you have time (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes★★★★ (2) 50% ★★★★★ (1) 25% ★ (1) 25% ★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?Build Order (1) 33% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (1) 33% All Four Criterion (1) 33% Level of Play (0) 0% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% None (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?★★★ (2) 67% ★★★★ (1) 33% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?★★★★ (2) 67% ★★★ (1) 33% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
6. High Level Play by One Player into Stomp
+ Show Spoiler +Description: One player plays extremely well and just stomps his opponent, who plays bad or okay. Sample Game: JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda, Code A Ro24 + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?Yes (2) 67% If you have time (1) 33% No (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda★★★ (3) 75% ★★★★ (1) 25% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?Level of Play (2) 67% All Four Criterion (1) 33% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% None (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?★★★★ (2) 67% ★★★★★ (1) 33% ★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?★★★ (3) 100% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
7. Exciting Game of Throws
+ Show Spoiler +Description: One or more player tries to throw the game as hard and as far as he can. The other player plays ok, but ends up winning because of the throw. Sample Game: Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S, WCS EU Premier League Ro32 + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?If you have time (2) 50% Yes (1) 25% No (1) 25% 4 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S★★★ (2) 50% ★★★★★ (1) 25% ★★★★ (1) 25% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?Entertainment Value and Micro (1) 33% Entertainment Value (1) 33% None (1) 33% Level of Play (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?★★ (2) 67% ★★★ (1) 33% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?★★★★★ (1) 33% ★★★★ (1) 33% ★★★ (1) 33% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
8. Injustice Leaguer beats Fan Favorite in a Great Game
+ Show Spoiler +Description: Sometimes the players you hate beat the players you love, and yet they actually deserved to win. Sample Game: hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind, OSL Ro32 + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?Yes (1) 50% No (1) 50% If you have time (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind★★★★★ (1) 33% ★★★★ (1) 33% ★★ (1) 33% ★★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?Level of Play and Micro (1) 50% None (1) 50% Level of Play (0) 0% Entertainment Value (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?★★★★ (1) 50% ★ (1) 50% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?★★★★ (1) 50% ★★ (1) 50% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
9. When Cheese Goes Sour
+ Show Spoiler +Description: Sometimes a sure-win cheese still fails, and it is glorious. But also kinda bad. Sample Game: Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct, OSL Ro16 + Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +Poll: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?If you have time (2) 100% Yes (0) 0% No (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct★★ (2) 67% ★★★★ (1) 33% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: What would you recommend in Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?Entertainment Value (2) 100% Level of Play (0) 0% Build Order (0) 0% Sick Micro (0) 0% Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0) 0% Level of Play and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Build Order (0) 0% Entertainment Value and Micro (0) 0% Build Order and Micro (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0) 0% Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0) 0% Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0) 0% All Four Criterion (0) 0% None (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: What would you recommend in Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct? (Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None
Poll: Level of Play of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?★★★ (1) 50% ★ (1) 50% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Level of Play of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll: Entertainment Value of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?★★★ (1) 50% ★★★★ (1) 50% ★★★★★ (0) 0% ★★ (0) 0% ★ (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Entertainment Value of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct? (Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★
Poll About Polls
Now that we understand the different polls better and now that you've voted on a few polls comparing results, perhaps you are now ready to form an opinion on which poll style you think is best, or which you prefer. Ideally all of you who are at this point voted in that ridiculous poll marathon so that we can understand their differences, advantages, and disadvantages better. Of course this is the internet so you probably skipped to this part. Fine. Time for the crunch votes.
+ Show Spoiler [Most Effective] +Poll: Which poll is the most effective?Yes/No/If you have time (21) 68% 5-Star (8) 26% Criteria-based (2) 6% Dual Poll (0) 0% 31 total votes Your vote: Which poll is the most effective? (Vote): Yes/No/If you have time
(Vote): 5-Star
(Vote): Criteria-based
(Vote): Dual Poll
+ Show Spoiler [Most Informative] +Poll: Which poll is the most informative?Criteria-based (11) 42% Yes/No/If you have time (9) 35% Dual Poll (4) 15% 5-Star (2) 8% 26 total votes Your vote: Which poll is the most informative? (Vote): Yes/No/If you have time
(Vote): 5-Star
(Vote): Criteria-based
(Vote): Dual Poll
+ Show Spoiler [Most Preferred] +Poll: Which poll do you prefer the most?Yes/No/If you have time (19) 54% 5-Star (13) 37% Dual Poll (2) 6% Criteria-based (1) 3% 35 total votes Your vote: Which poll do you prefer the most? (Vote): Yes/No/If you have time
(Vote): 5-Star
(Vote): Criteria-based
(Vote): Dual Poll
Other Possible Improvements
Now this is a very important section. There are other possible improvements that can be made to the recommendation system aside from just changing the type of polls we use. We can change their appearance, where they are placed, or how the information is gathered. We might even be able to get TL to allow us to use some tools currently not available. The following are the ideas I've gathered so far:
1. Checkboxes for different types of polls, especially criteria polls + Show Spoiler +
2. Liquipedia or database for recommended games once everything is standardized
3. Nicer voting and polling appearance similar to Blog-stars
4. Personal Profile Stats for Recommendations to encourage more voting
5. Incorporate recommended games to tlpd, as a new form of information for games
As mentioned earlier, there is also the problem of low voter turnouts. It's also a problem that concerns us so I may as well try to get you to give me some info and ideas on it.
So yeah, polls again sheesh
+ Show Spoiler [Questions for those who don't vote] +Poll: I don't vote on polls because...I find it difficult to vote objectively on the games (3) 50% I don't have an opinion about the games (2) 33% I don't see the polls all the time, or forget to vote on them (1) 17% I don't care for nor use recommended game polls (0) 0% I do not look at or participate in the LR thread (0) 0% The polls are too ugly to use (0) 0% I don't like the style of the poll questions (0) 0% I didn't know there were polls (0) 0% No particular reason (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: I don't vote on polls because... (Vote): I don't care for nor use recommended game polls
(Vote): I find it difficult to vote objectively on the games
(Vote): I don't have an opinion about the games
(Vote): I don't see the polls all the time, or forget to vote on them
(Vote): I do not look at or participate in the LR thread
(Vote): The polls are too ugly to use
(Vote): I don't like the style of the poll questions
(Vote): I didn't know there were polls
(Vote): No particular reason
Poll: I would vote on recommended game polls more if...I had more use for the polls (2) 50% The poll appearance is improved (1) 25% The poll is made more prominent on the stream page (1) 25% The poll questions are changed (0) 0% The poll is made more prominent on the LR thread (0) 0% We could keep track of our voting stats (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: I would vote on recommended game polls more if... (Vote): The poll questions are changed
(Vote): The poll appearance is improved
(Vote): The poll is made more prominent on the LR thread
(Vote): The poll is made more prominent on the stream page
(Vote): I had more use for the polls
(Vote): We could keep track of our voting stats
And for those who watch the games through TL's livestream pages but do not participate in the LR, would having the recommended game polls embedded below the stream encourage you to vote more?
+ Show Spoiler [Really crummy MS Paint img] +
+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Would this idea encourage you to vote?Yes (15) 100% No (0) 0% 15 total votes Your vote: Would this idea encourage you to vote? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Do you have any other ideas to improve voter turnout?
That's all I got so far. Interesting ideas from you guys go below:
Your Opinions
Your opinions go here.
Discussion
Now it's time for discussion. After reading this long ass thread, what do you think? Have I missed anything? Are there other possible poll styles? Did I miss a pro/con/point/idea? Let us discuss this, since the recommended games polls are for you. I will edit good ideas/opinions/etc to the OP.
I am particularly interested in the opinion of people who use the polls often, such as This Week in SC2. Have you noticed any problems, quirks, or interesting anomalies? Do you feel that the polls accurately represent the games?
I also want to hear from people who want to use recommended game polls for whatever reason, such as creating recommended game databases or something. You guys can give us ideas on how to make the information more useable.
Staff input is welcome too, so that we know what we can work with.
That's it. Discuss.
Yours truly,
LR Thread Standardization Committee Chairperson+ Show Spoiler +I didn't expect this to be this long x_x
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United States97276 Posts
I think the whole 5 star poll can be pretty subjective and I've heard people say things like what would you call a 5 star, 4 star, etc.. game? A lot of people take it as 5 is yes, 1 is no, and 3 is kind of like the if you have time/meh option. However, another way you could look at it is like 3/5 seems like a pretty average game. Yeah, I'd recommend that if you wanted to. Then 4 star would be like an above average game while 5 star is great. Or maybe 4 is a great game and 5 is an amazing game! Then another problem is the subjective view of recommending a game. Do you only recommend amazing games? Do you recommend average games? It would vary from person to person. What if you did a kind of hybrid poll where you were like
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Amazing game (1) 100% ★★★★ - Good game (0) 0% ★★★ - Average game (0) 0% ★★ - Below average (0) 0% ★ - Bad game (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game
or what if someone else wanted it like
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Yes (0) 0% ★★★★ - Good Game (0) 0% ★★★ - meh (0) 0% ★★ - not that good (0) 0% ★ - No (0) 0% 0 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No
Or you could use some other combination of words. That's just something I threw together. I don't think you're ever going to come up with a perfect polling system because the idea of a recommended game and what each poll means differs from person to person, and it's not like there's some standard that is enforced. I also don't think you're ever going to be able to remove bias from the polls because everyone watches for something different.
Another point you brought up was the number of people voting in polls. I think it's pretty obvious and touched on that the less number of options (aka the less we all have to really thing about it), the more people will actually take the time to click a vote. I think the vote appearing under the stream could be a possible area of exploration, but at the same time, it could annoy people that really don't care.
I'm personally a fan of keeping it a simple as possible and I probably wouldn't desire anything above maybe that 5 star poll with guiding words that I mentioned above. Personally, I think that dual poll would be nice splitting it up by entertainment and level of play because then you can kind of just average it in your head and see if you want to tune in, but even that would probably just be too much to receive an appropriate amount of votes to make a real judgment.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 12:15 Shellshock1122 wrote:I think the whole 5 star poll can be pretty subjective and I've heard people say things like what would you call a 5 star, 4 star, etc.. game? A lot of people take it as 5 is yes, 1 is no, and 3 is kind of like the if you have time/meh option. However, another way you could look at it is like 3/5 seems like a pretty average game. Yeah, I'd recommend that if you wanted to. Then 4 star would be like an above average game while 5 star is great. Or maybe 4 is a great game and 5 is an amazing game! Then another problem is the subjective view of recommending a game. Do you only recommend amazing games? Do you recommend average games? It would vary from person to person. What if you did a kind of hybrid poll where you were like + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Amazing game (1) 100% ★★★★ - Good game (0) 0% ★★★ - Average game (0) 0% ★★ - Below average (0) 0% ★ - Bad game (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game
or what if someone else wanted it like + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Yes (0) 0% ★★★★ - Good Game (0) 0% ★★★ - meh (0) 0% ★★ - not that good (0) 0% ★ - No (0) 0% 0 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No
I actually assumed that this was more or less obvious, thar 5 is a great game, 3 is an average game, and 1 is a horrible game with 4 being good and 2 being only kinda bad. I guess spelling it out for people could be beneficial for 5-star polls, but would it really encourage more people to think about votes rather than just choosing 5 or 1?
Or you could use some other combination of words. That's just something I threw together. I don't think you're ever going to come up with a perfect polling system because the idea of a recommended game and what each poll means differs from person to person, and it's not like there's some standard that is enforced. I also don't think you're ever going to be able to remove bias from the polls because everyone watches for something different.
Another point you brought up was the number of people voting in polls. I think it's pretty obvious and touched on that the less number of options (aka the less we all have to really thing about it), the more people will actually take the time to click a vote. I think the vote appearing under the stream could be a possible area of exploration, but at the same time, it could annoy people that really don't care.
I don't see how the poll beneath the stream page could be viewed as annoying. It's an empty space. People who don't care about the poll don't need to vote, and it isn't much of an eyesore. I suppose that section could be 'spoilered' or minimized somehow to hide it, but open by default.
I'm personally a fan of keeping it a simple as possible and I probably wouldn't desire anything above maybe that 5 star poll with guiding words that I mentioned above. Personally, I think that dual poll would be nice splitting it up by entertainment and level of play because then you can kind of just average it in your head and see if you want to tune in, but even that would probably just be too much to receive an appropriate amount of votes to make a real judgment.
I did defend Y/N/I originally, but I still think improvements can be made, even if it isn't a change in poll style. Improvements to get people to vote alone could make a big difference.
I do doubt this thread will help much since it's too long and complicated. I suppose if we don't get much feedback then it will prove that recommended game polls aren't important and we can focus on other LR things to improve.
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
Poll: Do you recommend this thread?If you have time (35) 61% Yes (14) 25% No (8) 14% 57 total votes Your vote: Do you recommend this thread? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Wow that OP is amazing. I feel like while other options are great, but LR-ing does take time even with the help of OP makers. There for I feel the poll format above is the best one. However if we want to raise the standards of OP makers that's fine. But I'm definitely eager to hear counter arguments from everyone.
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If it's possible, a combination of the 5 star and blog style voting systems is best. For example, you vote with the five star system, and the results are shown as the blog style averaging. But, you already knew that :p
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United States97276 Posts
On July 29 2013 12:27 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 12:15 Shellshock1122 wrote:I think the whole 5 star poll can be pretty subjective and I've heard people say things like what would you call a 5 star, 4 star, etc.. game? A lot of people take it as 5 is yes, 1 is no, and 3 is kind of like the if you have time/meh option. However, another way you could look at it is like 3/5 seems like a pretty average game. Yeah, I'd recommend that if you wanted to. Then 4 star would be like an above average game while 5 star is great. Or maybe 4 is a great game and 5 is an amazing game! Then another problem is the subjective view of recommending a game. Do you only recommend amazing games? Do you recommend average games? It would vary from person to person. What if you did a kind of hybrid poll where you were like + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Amazing game (1) 100% ★★★★ - Good game (0) 0% ★★★ - Average game (0) 0% ★★ - Below average (0) 0% ★ - Bad game (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game
or what if someone else wanted it like + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Yes (0) 0% ★★★★ - Good Game (0) 0% ★★★ - meh (0) 0% ★★ - not that good (0) 0% ★ - No (0) 0% 0 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No
I actually assumed that this was more or less obvious, thar 5 is a great game, 3 is an average game, and 1 is a horrible game with 4 being good and 2 being only kinda bad. I guess spelling it out for people could be beneficial for 5-star polls, but would it really encourage more people to think about votes rather than just choosing 5 or 1?
Yeah I thought it was a pretty standard way to look at it, but apparently not. I did a day of WCS America with the star polling system instead of the yes/no/iyht style and some people were questioning about what each level of the stars really meant
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 12:33 BisuDagger wrote:
Wow that OP is amazing. I feel like while other options are great, but LR-ing does take time even with the help of OP makers. There for I feel the poll format above is the best one. However if we want to raise the standards of OP makers that's fine. But I'm definitely eager to hear counter arguments from everyone.
It's actually not hard to make polls because you can just press back and change the question for each game. That's what I do. You don't need to make each poll from scratch.
On July 29 2013 12:37 bo1b wrote:
If it's possible, a combination of the 5 star and blog style voting systems is best. For example, you vote with the five star system, and the results are shown as the blog style averaging. But, you already knew that :p
I think this is an attractive option, yes, but it does not solve how people seem to vote in 5-star polls. As Shellbot mentioned, a lot of people just vote in extremes and don't really think about what their votes mean as it's far more subjective a question. It's a good poll system assuming everyone thinks about their votes and we receive a good number of votes, but taking into consideration that people just vote whatevs and not a lot of people vote, is it the [i]most effective type of poll?
On July 29 2013 12:41 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 12:27 lichter wrote:On July 29 2013 12:15 Shellshock1122 wrote:I think the whole 5 star poll can be pretty subjective and I've heard people say things like what would you call a 5 star, 4 star, etc.. game? A lot of people take it as 5 is yes, 1 is no, and 3 is kind of like the if you have time/meh option. However, another way you could look at it is like 3/5 seems like a pretty average game. Yeah, I'd recommend that if you wanted to. Then 4 star would be like an above average game while 5 star is great. Or maybe 4 is a great game and 5 is an amazing game! Then another problem is the subjective view of recommending a game. Do you only recommend amazing games? Do you recommend average games? It would vary from person to person. What if you did a kind of hybrid poll where you were like + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Amazing game (1) 100% ★★★★ - Good game (0) 0% ★★★ - Average game (0) 0% ★★ - Below average (0) 0% ★ - Bad game (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game
or what if someone else wanted it like + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?★★★★★ - Yes (0) 0% ★★★★ - Good Game (0) 0% ★★★ - meh (0) 0% ★★ - not that good (0) 0% ★ - No (0) 0% 0 total votes Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No
I actually assumed that this was more or less obvious, thar 5 is a great game, 3 is an average game, and 1 is a horrible game with 4 being good and 2 being only kinda bad. I guess spelling it out for people could be beneficial for 5-star polls, but would it really encourage more people to think about votes rather than just choosing 5 or 1? Yeah I thought it was a pretty standard way to look at it, but apparently not. I did a day of WCS America with the star polling system instead of the yes/no/iyht style and some people were questioning about what each level of the stars really meant
At first I thought people would like the change too, but the preferences seem to be split. Some people like Y/N/I and some people like 5-star. I'd like to hear their opinions here if they can get past that long ass OP T_T[/s]
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Star-system: the same as YNI with 5* = Yes, 1/2*= No, 2/3/4= If you have time, albeit way more vague and random
Dual-Poll: too long. I dont want to be confused with 2 kinds of polls, people dont wanna click that many
Blog star: the average form of star-system with the same interpretation, even more vague with decimals
Personally, when seeking recommendations, I dont want to read 15 lines or try to figure how good is a 4* game really is
My opinion: OP better watches the games and conduct a poll of what he/people might think about the game. However, it's not needed to be as complex/tldr as the suggested criteria-based, 4 options top. Something like this will do:
Poll: OP?lots of blah, stick with YNI (6) 50% Great study & initiatives. Read it! (4) 33% tldr (2) 17% Cool ideas. will check later (0) 0% 12 total votes Your vote: OP? (Vote): Great study & initiatives. Read it!
(Vote): Cool ideas. will check later
(Vote): lots of blah, stick with YNI
(Vote): tldr
Other examples with a tbsp of excitement/bias
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Game 1?GAWD YES! (107) 81% If you have time -_- (14) 11% No, I dun like comeback (11) 8% 132 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 1? (Vote): GAWD YES!
(Vote): No, I dun like comeback
(Vote): If you have time -_-
Poll: Recommend Game 5?Me like allin (12) 55% ArNo (9) 41% If you have time (1) 5% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 5? (Vote): Me like allin
(Vote): ArNo
(Vote): If you have time
Conclusion: Aside from the clearest choice of YNI, I dont want everything to be so uniformly done. Topic-maker should put effort and attention to their OP and the games.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 13:44 Arceus wrote:Star-system: the same as YNI with 5* = Yes, 1/2*= No, 2/3/4= If you have time, albeit way more vague and random Dual-Poll: too long. I dont want to be confused with 2 kinds of polls, people dont wanna click that many Blog star: the average form of star-system with the same interpretation, even more vague with decimals Personally, when seeking recommendations, I dont want to read 15 lines or try to figure how good is a 4* game really is My opinion: OP better watches the games and conduct a poll of what he/people might think about the game. However, it's not needed to be as complex/tldr as the suggested criteria-based, 4 options top. Something like this will do: Poll: OP?lots of blah, stick with YNI (6) 50% Great study & initiatives. Read it! (4) 33% tldr (2) 17% Cool ideas. will check later (0) 0% 12 total votes Your vote: OP? (Vote): Great study & initiatives. Read it!
(Vote): Cool ideas. will check later
(Vote): lots of blah, stick with YNI
(Vote): tldr
Other examples with a tbsp of excitement/bias + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Game 1?GAWD YES! (107) 81% If you have time -_- (14) 11% No, I dun like comeback (11) 8% 132 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 1? (Vote): GAWD YES!
(Vote): No, I dun like comeback
(Vote): If you have time -_-
Poll: Recommend Game 5?Me like allin (12) 55% ArNo (9) 41% If you have time (1) 5% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 5? (Vote): Me like allin
(Vote): ArNo
(Vote): If you have time
Conclusion: Aside from the clearest choice of YNI, I dont want everything to be so uniformly done. Topic-maker should put effort and attention to their OP and the games.
The criteria based poll only looks ridiculous since we don't have checkbox polls. Assuming we could have checkbox polls, it's not any more complicated than Y/N/I, and much more informative. That's why I still presented it even though it looks crazy with TL's poll.
The big problem with excitement/bias polls is that they are spoilers. Yes it is fun to vote on them and fun to make them, but the people who will use the recommended game poll may find spoilers in them. I have tried them on occasion and I did receive such complaints. They are a fun way to do the polls but they defeat their purpose. An OP must be mindful of how he makes such polls to ensure there are no spoilers.
The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On July 29 2013 11:48 lichter wrote:
Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended; On July 29 2013 14:17 lichter wrote:
The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one.
As the person who does This Week in Starcraft 2, I appreciate your mentioning of my thread(s) when doing this. I rely almost exclusively on recommended game polls to determine which matches get listed. With the old Y/N/I system I had two requirements:
1) 80%+ Recommended
2) 10+ People Voted Yes
See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422910
I reasoned that any match worth watching would be able to surpass both requirements. If polls are not available I will either post in the thread asking if anyone recommended any games, or see if anyone made Reddit threads about any specific.
Now, I have no problems with changing the recommended games polls. All I ask is that if something new gets decided upon, everyone also decides on what threshold needs to be broken in order to be included in This Week in Starcraft 2.
For example, in a criteria-based poll, what exactly will determine if its a good enough game to be recommended? This is not a criticism of this particular poll, just something for everyone to consider once you decide which poll to use.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 14:37 juicyjames wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 11:48 lichter wrote:
Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended; Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 14:17 lichter wrote:
The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one. As the person who does This Week in Starcraft 2, I appreciate your mentioning of my thread(s) when doing this. I rely almost exclusively on recommended game polls to determine which matches get listed. With the old Y/N/I system I had two requirements: 1) 80%+ Recommended 2) 10+ People Voted Yes See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422910I reasoned that any match worth watching would be able to surpass both requirements. If polls are not available I will either post in the thread asking if anyone recommended any games, or see if anyone made Reddit threads about any specific. Now, I have no problems with changing the recommended games polls. All I ask is that if something new gets decided upon, everyone also decides on what threshold needs to be broken in order to be included in This Week in Starcraft 2. For example, in a criteria-based poll, what exactly will determine if its a good enough game to be recommended? This is not a criticism of this particular poll, just something for everyone to consider once you decide which poll to use.
I was going to name you specifically but wasn't sure since some of the threads were being made by shiroiusagi :D
I have a few more questions for you: do you think that the results you get from looking at recommended game polls are accurate? Do the best games get the best ratings? Are the best games and merely good games graded differently? Do duds get into the list because of their ratings? Do some good, should be recommended games miss out because their rating isn't high enough?
The reason I started questioning the accuracy of the poll was really because of Solar vs Rain compared to Flash vs Fantasy. I love both games but don't believe they are equal. I'm also pretty anal about ratings being accurate lol
In the criteria based poll, ideally we need to get R1CH to give us checkbox polls. A radio button for Yes/No, then a checkbox to recommend something in particular.
So you'd get info such as
85% Yes
80% Level of Play
80% Entertainment value
50% Build Orders
60% Sick Micro
15 % No
So the game is 85% recommended, with 80% recommending it because of level of play and entertainment value.
Of course this is dependent on being able to make hybrid radio/checkbox polls T_T
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I like the 5star option. but Im not sure it would really be informative with a lot of hype after the game.
the recommended poll is probably quite Ok as well.
criteria is weird imo.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 15:33 Big J wrote:
I like the 5star option. but Im not sure it would really be informative with a lot of hype after the game.
the recommended poll is probably quite Ok as well.
criteria is weird imo.
Criteria feels weird because we don't have checkboxes. I have edited its description so that it has a picture of the proposed poll with checkboxes, as well as the outputted information.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 29 2013 13:44 Arceus wrote:Other examples with a tbsp of excitement/bias + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Game 1?GAWD YES! (107) 81% If you have time -_- (14) 11% No, I dun like comeback (11) 8% 132 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 1? (Vote): GAWD YES!
(Vote): No, I dun like comeback
(Vote): If you have time -_-
Poll: Recommend Game 5?Me like allin (12) 55% ArNo (9) 41% If you have time (1) 5% 22 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 5? (Vote): Me like allin
(Vote): ArNo
(Vote): If you have time
i really dislike these things that also spoil the games
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I have to say I wouldn't mind a 5 star system for sets of matches(aka, should you watch this whole series) and just keep the current polling system for specific games in a spoilers section. It provides the most information possible and lets the read choose how deep they want to go before they watch the series.
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Wasn't the MKP vs Bbyong (one of the example games) the first game of their Code A series? In which case there is a free vod on GOMTV. Sorry if I got this wrong.
I like a simple system of how much people recommend a game without the additional information. The problem for me is when I expect a game to be of super high quality then it kind of takes away from the enjoyment. Likewise if I know the game is hilariously bad beforehand, or will be super close. I much prefer not knowing what makes a game good before going in. But this is clearly a personal preference.
I do think hiding the results would help prevent votes being influenced by how other's have already voted. But this would require having a way to vote in a poll and a separate way to view the results of the poll because people who are looking for recommended games can't vote in a poll for a game they haven't seen (so the results can't just be hidden until a vote is cast).
The blog style might help there but I like to see the distribution of votes and not just the average, particularly if I know who is playing. A high number of 1s and 5s may mean a lot of influence by fanboys and anti-fans, but it would give the same average as a mediocre game.
(This is coming from someone who more often looks at the results of polls than votes in polls, but this is because I rarely have time to watch the games live (eg Code S is during work time for me)).
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
Good old fashioned;
(When i did the LRs i used this)
Poll: Recommended Set 1Bad Game (2) 100% Good Game (0) 0% Meh Game (0) 0% 2 total votes Your vote: Recommended Set 1 (Vote): Good Game
(Vote): Meh Game
(Vote): Bad Game
Though this was what was needed.
EDIT: Yeah like Jakethesnake says, you have got to be careful with how the polls are worded due to the fact of spoilers for people. Pretty much you know and see when you watch the games live and see people voting that (for example) if Flash is playing and he wins the game is pretty much going to be 70% + Yes/Absolutely/Great/Perfect whatever title. So if there is away to keep the wording to a minimum and more based on gameplay voting it would be better.
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One of the reasons I dislike a 5-star voting system is that it can become biased which is why gomtv put a spoiler on their website. Basically it was easy to tell from the voting if a big fan favourite won or lost. A score of 6/10 with mvp playing? He must have lost (and the score doesn't really reflect how great the games are). Now, I'm sure that TL would be better than the general gomtv audience - I mean, just look at the gomtv forums! That said, the Y/N/I system can have the same bias so that probably isn't a new problem. Just something to think about and why I would probably be biased to an overall score (ala blogs 5-star system) over a distribution. It doesn't solve that problem but it would hide the fact that a game with a fan favourite might have a pile of 1-stars and a pile of 5 stars. At the same time, if you are deciding based on a poll whether or not you are going to watch a game, having it spoiled isn't the biggest deal (which wasn't the case for the GOM system since the voting appeared on the VOD page). So I think the reasons I dislike the 5-point system are pretty irrelevant.
I do dislike the criteria based voting. I know it gives more information, but I like to watch games with as little info as possible. The Y/N/I does spoil a little bit about the game, but it doesn't bias my watching all that much. Knowing that a game was recommended because of build order and sick micro but not level of play can let me know that I'm in for a cheesy type game, where just knowing that it is recommended only lets me know that it is good. So I don't particularly like the criteria based system and if it was implemented I probably would use the recommended polls less.
The dual poll system I think just lacks the simplicity to use (both for the voter and the person deciding to use the info), so for that reason I think it is my least favourite.
I think the best (from my perspective) would be the hidden-distribution 5-star system. I know that that is the most difficult to do, so I'll put a vote in for second as probably the 5-point voting system. Basically that just bumps us from a 3-point scale to a 5-point. It has its drawbacks which I am aware of and its biases but should be a slight improvement over the current system. With the amount of content coming out from WCS alone, having a good recommendation system is important. I do use the current polls a lot and would love for them to be improved. I just want them to be easy to use and provide a quick-and-dirty way to judge what extra content I am going to watch.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 22:54 Melliflue wrote:
Wasn't the MKP vs Bbyong (one of the example games) the first game of their Code A series? In which case there is a free vod on GOMTV. Sorry if I got this wrong.
I like a simple system of how much people recommend a game without the additional information. The problem for me is when I expect a game to be of super high quality then it kind of takes away from the enjoyment. Likewise if I know the game is hilariously bad beforehand, or will be super close. I much prefer not knowing what makes a game good before going in. But this is clearly a personal preference.
I do think hiding the results would help prevent votes being influenced by how other's have already voted. But this would require having a way to vote in a poll and a separate way to view the results of the poll because people who are looking for recommended games can't vote in a poll for a game they haven't seen (so the results can't just be hidden until a vote is cast).
The blog style might help there but I like to see the distribution of votes and not just the average, particularly if I know who is playing. A high number of 1s and 5s may mean a lot of influence by fanboys and anti-fans, but it would give the same average as a mediocre game.
(This is coming from someone who more often looks at the results of polls than votes in polls, but this is because I rarely have time to watch the games live (eg Code S is during work time for me)).
The first game of MKP vs Bbyong was on Whirlwind, and that was the terrible game where + Show Spoiler +MKP proxies everything at the Xel'naga, Bbyong scouts it immediately, yet somehow loses came down to a base trade, single digit supplies, and tiny margins of error which made it exciting
Thanks for the input. We are most interested in the input of those who use the recommended game polls the most. I agree that we should remove the possibility of spoilers, so I see your point about more 'informative' polls also acting as spoilers. I will add that to their cons.
On July 29 2013 23:12 jakethesnake wrote:
One of the reasons I dislike a 5-star voting system is that it can become biased which is why gomtv put a spoiler on their website. Basically it was easy to tell from the voting if a big fan favourite won or lost. A score of 6/10 with mvp playing? He must have lost (and the score doesn't really reflect how great the games are). Now, I'm sure that TL would be better than the general gomtv audience - I mean, just look at the gomtv forums! That said, the Y/N/I system can have the same bias so that probably isn't a new problem. Just something to think about and why I would probably be biased to an overall score (ala blogs 5-star system) over a distribution. It doesn't solve that problem but it would hide the fact that a game with a fan favourite might have a pile of 1-stars and a pile of 5 stars. At the same time, if you are deciding based on a poll whether or not you are going to watch a game, having it spoiled isn't the biggest deal (which wasn't the case for the GOM system since the voting appeared on the VOD page). So I think the reasons I dislike the 5-point system are pretty irrelevant.
I do dislike the criteria based voting. I know it gives more information, but I like to watch games with as little info as possible. The Y/N/I does spoil a little bit about the game, but it doesn't bias my watching all that much. Knowing that a game was recommended because of build order and sick micro but not level of play can let me know that I'm in for a cheesy type game, where just knowing that it is recommended only lets me know that it is good. So I don't particularly like the criteria based system and if it was implemented I probably would use the recommended polls less.
The dual poll system I think just lacks the simplicity to use (both for the voter and the person deciding to use the info), so for that reason I think it is my least favourite.
I think the best (from my perspective) would be the hidden-distribution 5-star system. I know that that is the most difficult to do, so I'll put a vote in for second as probably the 5-point voting system. Basically that just bumps us from a 3-point scale to a 5-point. It has its drawbacks which I am aware of and its biases but should be a slight improvement over the current system. With the amount of content coming out from WCS alone, having a good recommendation system is important. I do use the current polls a lot and would love for them to be improved. I just want them to be easy to use and provide a quick-and-dirty way to judge what extra content I am going to watch.
Thanks for the input. I think everyone agrees that a hidden distribution poll similar to the blog-stars poll is an improvement over a basic 5-star poll. I guess if everyone rallies behind it we can pester R1CH to make it a possibility :D
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On July 29 2013 14:51 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 14:37 juicyjames wrote:On July 29 2013 11:48 lichter wrote:
Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended; On July 29 2013 14:17 lichter wrote:
The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one. As the person who does This Week in Starcraft 2, I appreciate your mentioning of my thread(s) when doing this. I rely almost exclusively on recommended game polls to determine which matches get listed. With the old Y/N/I system I had two requirements: 1) 80%+ Recommended 2) 10+ People Voted Yes See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422910I reasoned that any match worth watching would be able to surpass both requirements. If polls are not available I will either post in the thread asking if anyone recommended any games, or see if anyone made Reddit threads about any specific. Now, I have no problems with changing the recommended games polls. All I ask is that if something new gets decided upon, everyone also decides on what threshold needs to be broken in order to be included in This Week in Starcraft 2. For example, in a criteria-based poll, what exactly will determine if its a good enough game to be recommended? This is not a criticism of this particular poll, just something for everyone to consider once you decide which poll to use. I was going to name you specifically but wasn't sure since some of the threads were being made by shiroiusagi :D I have a few more questions for you: do you think that the results you get from looking at recommended game polls are accurate? Do the best games get the best ratings? Are the best games and merely good games graded differently? Do duds get into the list because of their ratings? Do some good, should be recommended games miss out because their rating isn't high enough? The reason I started questioning the accuracy of the poll was really because of Solar vs Rain compared to Flash vs Fantasy. I love both games but don't believe they are equal. I'm also pretty anal about ratings being accurate lol In the criteria based poll, ideally we need to get R1CH to give us checkbox polls. A radio button for Yes/No, then a checkbox to recommend something in particular. So you'd get info such as 85% Yes 80% Level of Play 80% Entertainment value 50% Build Orders 60% Sick Micro 15 % No So the game is 85% recommended, with 80% recommending it because of level of play and entertainment value. Of course this is dependent on being able to make hybrid radio/checkbox polls T_T
They are accurate enough for most people to use as an at a glance tool to see whether or not they should go back to watch VODs, but they are not without their flaws.
The greatest indicator of a "must see" game for me is probably when it has 100+ people voting Yes, but the problem is any match that has that many votes will almost never be 100% recommended. The 100% recommended games are often matches with barely 10 votes.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422034
So in an absolute sense, no, the best games do not get the best ratings. The fewer people that vote, the more inaccurate the ratings will be. 1-3 people voting No or If you have time can dramatically drag down a low-voted game, or, conversely, give you 100% recommended games that really are not better than games where 98% of like 120+ people voted yes.
This is why I include both percents and absolute numbers. I agree, it is hard to separate "the best" vs "good" games. If I had to separate them currently I would go back to what I said and say anything with 100+ people voting Yes would be "the best."
Do good games not make the list? Yes. If a tournament is on at a bad time (Code A), has a lot of unknowns in it (Code A), or has a dead LR (WCS AM, which can have anywhere from 15k-25k viewers but a largely inactive LR) there will be a lot of games that may not even have 10 votes total.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420595
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=421947
However, most of the time good games will cause people to vote on the polls (I hope?). Polt vs TaeJa is a good example of this.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422354
Do duds make it no the list? Sure, but I would wager anyone actually looking at recommended game polls probably are only going to watch certain matchups or certain pros to begin with. There are way too many choices for people to simply watch random games recommended games.
Honestly, WCS created so much SC2 content I actually made my requirements for being listed as a recommended game slightly more strict. I used to list 75%+, 10+ recommended, but now bumped it up to 80%+, 10+ recommended. I still toy with the idea of even going up to 80%+, 15+, but it would probably destroy WCS AM.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422034
So, in the end, yes it would be nice if there were a better system of recommended games to clearly separate "must watch" games from merely "good" games. At the very least maybe somehow differentiate between games recommended as a spectator and games recommended as a player of X or Y race.
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I think the yes/no/if you have time options are not too good. Same with the star system - imo people (including me) are too influenced by players playing.
Example:
Let's take the game between JangBi and Leenock in the OP. JangBi is playing. JangBi wins. Do I recommend the game? Fuck yeah cause JangBi. But do I think it was a great game? Not really. It was average. That's why I think the the polls need to have words that indicate we are talking about the game itself, not players not anything else.
So, if polls with checkboxes would be possible, I think that is the best way how to do it. If not, I would say something like this is better:
Poll: Was JangBi vs Leenock game one good?Average. (1) 100% Amazing! (0) 0% Good game. (0) 0% Pretty bad. (0) 0% Don't even try to watch. (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Was JangBi vs Leenock game one good? (Vote): Amazing!
(Vote): Good game.
(Vote): Average.
(Vote): Pretty bad.
(Vote): Don't even try to watch.
It is basically the same as star system, but using words that are kinda 'forcing' people to think about the quality of the game and not the circumstances surrounding it is imo better in order to get better/more fair results.
EDIT:
Also, one more thing. If we take into account that these polls are aimed mostly towards people who want to watch VoDs and only want to watch the best games, the poll may take that into account and ask it directly, like this:
Poll: Would you recommend watching JangBi vs Leenock G1 VoD?No, just don't bother, it was bad. (1) 100% Amazing game, must watch! (0) 0% Pretty good game, should watch. (0) 0% Watch if you really like one of the players. (0) 0% Meh, no point in watching really. (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Would you recommend watching JangBi vs Leenock G1 VoD? (Vote): Amazing game, must watch!
(Vote): Pretty good game, should watch.
(Vote): Watch if you really like one of the players.
(Vote): Meh, no point in watching really.
(Vote): No, just don't bother, it was bad.
tl;dr = I think 5 star system is best to determine the quality of the games, but needs to have some words in it to indicate to people we are talking about the game quality and not circumstances surrounding it at all.
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I think the 5 star system is fine, with context. Everyone should know what a 5 star game looks like. A lot of voting is done immediately after a game, so a lot of hype is involved. But a game should stand on its own merit. If it's a good enough game, people will vote it higher no matter what.
That said, I think there needs to be a system of tags for the criteria based part. Even something as 5 universal tags to add on if necessary (close, one sided, weird, cheese, new meta) based on the game for the sale of description
Regardless, simplicity is the best. Bonus for being able to deal with the inmediate postgame hype (y/n/if time is too rigid, I think).
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I think it would be very helpful if the options in the recommended game where something along the lines of
No
Good
Great game
You can't miss this to save your life
This way it makes it easier to know which games you should actually spend time on watching the VOD, No one cares about the difference between a meh and a good game.
Also for me, the gameplay recommendation option is to much of a spoiler.
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I think that the 5-Star Poll is the best system.
The yes/no/if you have time system is not only inaccurate, but also more influenced by personal preference (favorite player lost => Vote no). Also, the "if you have time" option is pretty useless in my opinion. If you have enough time, you could also watch 100 hours of nyan cat, but that doesnt mean that i would recommend you to do it.
The 5 Star Poll however, is probably the best way to measure the quality of games, allows to include personal preference without distorting the result to much and is also easy to use and to understand.
All other options are to clumsy and complex and would probably discourage people to vote in the poll. Also, it would probably mean extra work for you LR people, and you already do enough stuff.
also, great thread. ty lichter
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On July 29 2013 23:46 Ammanas wrote:Poll: Would you recommend watching JangBi vs Leenock G1 VoD?No, just don't bother, it was bad. (1) 100% Amazing game, must watch! (0) 0% Pretty good game, should watch. (0) 0% Watch if you really like one of the players. (0) 0% Meh, no point in watching really. (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Would you recommend watching JangBi vs Leenock G1 VoD? (Vote): Amazing game, must watch!
(Vote): Pretty good game, should watch.
(Vote): Watch if you really like one of the players.
(Vote): Meh, no point in watching really.
(Vote): No, just don't bother, it was bad.
I really like this concept, I'd prefer this over the 5-star system.
Problems could be, that it could get really awkward when having only a few people voting on it and everyone chooses a different option.
I'm also not sure how JuicyJames could implement this into his weekly roundup, finding out which amount of votes on which options would make it a game worth recommending would need some time to figure out.
It depends a lot on how people react to this kind of poll but I think this idea is worth giving it a try.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 30 2013 01:19 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 23:46 Ammanas wrote:Poll: Would you recommend watching JangBi vs Leenock G1 VoD?No, just don't bother, it was bad. (1) 100% Amazing game, must watch! (0) 0% Pretty good game, should watch. (0) 0% Watch if you really like one of the players. (0) 0% Meh, no point in watching really. (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Would you recommend watching JangBi vs Leenock G1 VoD? (Vote): Amazing game, must watch!
(Vote): Pretty good game, should watch.
(Vote): Watch if you really like one of the players.
(Vote): Meh, no point in watching really.
(Vote): No, just don't bother, it was bad.
I really like this concept, I'd prefer this over the 5-star system. Problems could be, that it could get really awkward when having only a few people voting on it and everyone chooses a different option. I'm also not sure how JuicyJames could implement this into his weekly roundup, finding out which amount of votes on which options would make it a game worth recommending would need some time to figure out. It depends a lot on how people react to this kind of poll but I think this idea is worth giving it a try.
Purely descriptive polls are difficult to turn into a score, yes. Especially when they have many options. That's why I want to avoid it. It's also a slippery slope to assign each option with a number value (5,4,3,2,1, essentially the same as 5-star) since the 'description' might not follow that kind of distribution of 'recommendedness'.
I will reply to the other comments in the morning.
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I think the whole OP, while obviously a lot of effort was put into it, was written with a faulty presumption, i.e. a poll can be accurate. A poll with fixed answers will always be imprecise, that is the nature of fixed answers.
Recommended game polls are intended as a quick reference to decide whether or not to watch a game, the current system does just that and any added level of distinction will only increase the time needed to make this decision, while still falling short in accuracy.
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On July 30 2013 01:36 nimbim wrote:
I think the whole OP, while obviously a lot of effort was put into it, was written with a faulty presumption, i.e. a poll can be accurate. A poll with fixed answers will always be imprecise, that is the nature of fixed answers.
Recommended game polls are intended as a quick reference to decide whether or not to watch a game, the current system does just that and any added level of distinction will only increase the time needed to make this decision, while still falling short in accuracy.
I think a poll can be accurate enough. It doesn't need to be perfect, but it needs to provide enough differentiation to distinguish a decent game from a great game. I think the current system is good at weeding good from bad, but not great at weeding decent games from great games. Of course the tension is between providing enough differentiation while maintaining enough accuracy. I think expanding the system from a three point system to a five point system of some kind could help make the recommendations more useful (for the most part - it will likely make things worse for fairly inactive LR threads with low votes).
I actually like Ammanas' suggestion of having a descriptor based 5-point system rather than just a star system. I realize that it doesn't translate nicely into numeric values, but I personally have no problem ham-fisting the results from the ordinal scale into a numeric scale. Yeah, we all know it isn't perfect, but it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be able to accomplish it's goal which I think it can do. I don't think a 5-point scale is more difficult to read than a 3-point. I think the biggest thing is that you can't have a balanced 5-point scale where 1 and 2 are negative, 3 is neutral, and 4, 5 are positive. I would bet that people would see very little differentiation between 1 and 2 and so it would essentially be a 4 point system. I mean, does anyone really care about if the game is 'pretty bad' vs 'really bad'? Again, it makes translating to a numeric score less accurate, but I do think that it should be good enough for most purposes while maintaining an easy to use system for both the voter and the person deciding if they should watch a game.
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I personally prefer the yes/no/if you have time option. It's clear, and while it doesn't tell you why a game is worth watching, it does tell enough. If its due to casting, gameplay, closeness of the game, or whatever, doesn't really matter to me. Another benefit of the yes/no/if you have time system that its pretty easy to judge whether a large percentage of votes on one side or the other is biased in favor of one or the other player. .
The star system on the other hand is already way too complicated. I have no idea what it means when a game has 10% one star, 20% two star, 30% three star 30% four star and 20% five star. What I end up doing is adding up the 4 star and 5 star bar and count it as 'yes' in the old poll.
Keep in mind also that the more complicated you make the poll and the more complicated you make the questions, you generally get an even lower turnout and your entire poll becomes less accurate because more people have more questions to misinterpret.
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On July 30 2013 02:17 jakethesnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 01:36 nimbim wrote:
I think the whole OP, while obviously a lot of effort was put into it, was written with a faulty presumption, i.e. a poll can be accurate. A poll with fixed answers will always be imprecise, that is the nature of fixed answers.
Recommended game polls are intended as a quick reference to decide whether or not to watch a game, the current system does just that and any added level of distinction will only increase the time needed to make this decision, while still falling short in accuracy. I think a poll can be accurate enough. It doesn't need to be perfect, but it needs to provide enough differentiation to distinguish a decent game from a great game. I think the current system is good at weeding good from bad, but not great at weeding decent games from great games. Of course the tension is between providing enough differentiation while maintaining enough accuracy. I think expanding the system from a three point system to a five point system of some kind could help make the recommendations more useful (for the most part - it will likely make things worse for fairly inactive LR threads with low votes). I actually like Ammanas' suggestion of having a descriptor based 5-point system rather than just a star system. I realize that it doesn't translate nicely into numeric values, but I personally have no problem ham-fisting the results from the ordinal scale into a numeric scale. Yeah, we all know it isn't perfect, but it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be able to accomplish it's goal which I think it can do. I don't think a 5-point scale is more difficult to read than a 3-point. I think the biggest thing is that you can't have a balanced 5-point scale where 1 and 2 are negative, 3 is neutral, and 4, 5 are positive. I would bet that people would see very little differentiation between 1 and 2 and so it would essentially be a 4 point system. I mean, does anyone really care about if the game is 'pretty bad' vs 'really bad'? Again, it makes translating to a numeric score less accurate, but I do think that it should be good enough for most purposes while maintaining an easy to use system for both the voter and the person deciding if they should watch a game.
^ I actually think 4 point system would work much better then 3 or 5 point one. Just wanted to stick to the '5 stars' example. Reason being precisely what you said - for this specific issue, there is almost no difference between 'pretty bad' and 'very bad'.
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Norway25712 Posts
I like the yes/no/if you have time polls.
It's simple and an easy way to know if something's worth watching or not. The only issue is that people tend to auto-vote "if you have time" when the games are somewhat long.
Any point-based system gets too complicated imo. It hink people will use 5 stars for yes, 1 for no and 3 for meh. I don't see 2 stars being used a whole lot, but 4 might get used a lot for decent games. The problem is that some people will think of 5 as an AMAZING game, while others will thik of it as a "you should watch this"-game, which could mean a lot of games will have a pretty even split between 5-star and 4-star votes. Yes/No/Maybe is nice because with a poll that has sufficient amounts of votes it's easy to tell if a game is worth watching or not instantly.
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I prefer the simple yes/no/if you have the time with variations on the wordings. It is simple, quick, and informative. The latter, because it gets differentiated by the percentage. A 95% Yes is obviously a recommendation (5 stars), while a 60% Yes is rather average (3 stars). More options/complexity does not add more information for me, really, but tends to discourage voting.
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United States97276 Posts
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United States33390 Posts
popular polls will always be flawed and limited as a measure of a game's real quality
just take them for what they are and keep them simple
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I believe that the ideal solution is a combination of Y/N/I and star rating polls. Having an initial Y/N/I poll at the top, then maybe put the star rating poll underneath, in spoilers. That way, one could simply vote and be done with it, or if they desire, they could go into greater detail in the star rating poll. Furthermore, since both polls gather different information, you could combine them into one rating.
For example:
90% recommend game 1 [★★★★★]
60% recommend game 2 [★★★]
10% recommend game 3 [★]
Additionally, a system such as this would help eliminate bias in poll results. One common observation is that when the more popular player loses, less people recommend the game.
Say that Jaedong is facing Sniper at the finals of a major tournament in the last game of a BO7. Sniper decides to 10 pool, and after a long and exciting back-and-forth micro battle, Sniper barely wins. Chances are, most of the people in the LR thread won't be happy, so they don't recommend that game. However, the micro battle made for a great game.
Such a result could look like this:
20% recommend Sniper vs Jaedong [★★★★]
Even though less people would recommend the game, it was still a good game. Hopefully, this would help eliminate some of the fans' bias, and would encourage more thought after such a simple poll. Especially if the star rating poll were in spoilers, since then most people wouldn't vote for it.
Of course such a system has it's faults. If the star rating poll is in spoilers, then perhaps too few would vote in it to make a decision. Additionally, people could still vote down the rating due to the outcome. Finally, making the polls would be twice as much work for the LR thread.
Even with those faults, I believe that this would be the most adequate way to quickly judge a game.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
some of the polls here are rather complex :s
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 29 2013 23:22 juicyjames wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2013 14:51 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 14:37 juicyjames wrote:On July 29 2013 11:48 lichter wrote:
Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended; On July 29 2013 14:17 lichter wrote:
The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one. As the person who does This Week in Starcraft 2, I appreciate your mentioning of my thread(s) when doing this. I rely almost exclusively on recommended game polls to determine which matches get listed. With the old Y/N/I system I had two requirements: 1) 80%+ Recommended 2) 10+ People Voted Yes See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422910I reasoned that any match worth watching would be able to surpass both requirements. If polls are not available I will either post in the thread asking if anyone recommended any games, or see if anyone made Reddit threads about any specific. Now, I have no problems with changing the recommended games polls. All I ask is that if something new gets decided upon, everyone also decides on what threshold needs to be broken in order to be included in This Week in Starcraft 2. For example, in a criteria-based poll, what exactly will determine if its a good enough game to be recommended? This is not a criticism of this particular poll, just something for everyone to consider once you decide which poll to use. I was going to name you specifically but wasn't sure since some of the threads were being made by shiroiusagi :D I have a few more questions for you: do you think that the results you get from looking at recommended game polls are accurate? Do the best games get the best ratings? Are the best games and merely good games graded differently? Do duds get into the list because of their ratings? Do some good, should be recommended games miss out because their rating isn't high enough? The reason I started questioning the accuracy of the poll was really because of Solar vs Rain compared to Flash vs Fantasy. I love both games but don't believe they are equal. I'm also pretty anal about ratings being accurate lol In the criteria based poll, ideally we need to get R1CH to give us checkbox polls. A radio button for Yes/No, then a checkbox to recommend something in particular. So you'd get info such as 85% Yes 80% Level of Play 80% Entertainment value 50% Build Orders 60% Sick Micro 15 % No So the game is 85% recommended, with 80% recommending it because of level of play and entertainment value. Of course this is dependent on being able to make hybrid radio/checkbox polls T_T They are accurate enough for most people to use as an at a glance tool to see whether or not they should go back to watch VODs, but they are not without their flaws. The greatest indicator of a "must see" game for me is probably when it has 100+ people voting Yes, but the problem is any match that has that many votes will almost never be 100% recommended. The 100% recommended games are often matches with barely 10 votes. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422034So in an absolute sense, no, the best games do not get the best ratings. The fewer people that vote, the more inaccurate the ratings will be. 1-3 people voting No or If you have time can dramatically drag down a low-voted game, or, conversely, give you 100% recommended games that really are not better than games where 98% of like 120+ people voted yes. This is why I include both percents and absolute numbers. I agree, it is hard to separate "the best" vs "good" games. If I had to separate them currently I would go back to what I said and say anything with 100+ people voting Yes would be "the best." Do good games not make the list? Yes. If a tournament is on at a bad time (Code A), has a lot of unknowns in it (Code A), or has a dead LR (WCS AM, which can have anywhere from 15k-25k viewers but a largely inactive LR) there will be a lot of games that may not even have 10 votes total. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420595http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=421947However, most of the time good games will cause people to vote on the polls (I hope?). Polt vs TaeJa is a good example of this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422354Do duds make it no the list? Sure, but I would wager anyone actually looking at recommended game polls probably are only going to watch certain matchups or certain pros to begin with. There are way too many choices for people to simply watch random games recommended games. Honestly, WCS created so much SC2 content I actually made my requirements for being listed as a recommended game slightly more strict. I used to list 75%+, 10+ recommended, but now bumped it up to 80%+, 10+ recommended. I still toy with the idea of even going up to 80%+, 15+, but it would probably destroy WCS AM. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422034So, in the end, yes it would be nice if there were a better system of recommended games to clearly separate "must watch" games from merely "good" games. At the very least maybe somehow differentiate between games recommended as a spectator and games recommended as a player of X or Y race .
I think that what we can gather definitively is that the number of votes makes a big, big impact on how games are recommended. On the one hand, more votes means the game will have a rating that averages out better; on the other, more votes also means more idiots screwing up results. However as you mentioned, by combining the score and number of votes you are able to tell good from great. If only there were a way to combine it somehow. Perhaps if the effect of the number of votes on the score were exponential instead of linear (more votes leads to a quicker rise in rating), we could remove both problems? I just woke up from my morning nap so I will think about this further later.
On July 29 2013 23:46 Ammanas wrote:
On July 29 2013 23:47 Juliette wrote:
On July 30 2013 00:32 Paljas wrote:
I think a lot of people agree with you guys that 5-star is nice, if only we could remove that added level of bias and subjectivity. I guess I will try to use 5-star+description in my future polls and see how people like it.
On July 30 2013 01:36 nimbim wrote:
Polls can never be perfectly accurate, especially when there is nothing great at stake forcing people to really educate themselves about their votes. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve what we already have. I am not advocating for great change--because perhaps it is not necessary--but if we can find small improvements, such as making polls more visible or attractive, then they should be implemented if possible. While I do mention accuracy, the polls about polls asks about effectiveness, which takes into consideration all the flaws and circumstances surrounding the poll. You make the faulty assumption that accuracy is all we want. If we did then we'd have a 100 item 5-star poll that all TL users must answer after each game or get banned. Accurate, but ineffective. :p
On July 30 2013 02:22 Derez wrote:
The star system on the other hand is already way too complicated. I have no idea what it means when a game has 10% one star, 20% two star, 30% three star 30% four star and 20% five star. What I end up doing is adding up the 4 star and 5 star bar and count it as 'yes' in the old poll.
What if the results are shown not as a distribution but as an average? In your example it will show 3.6 stars out of 5. Would that help?
On July 30 2013 02:24 KristofferAG wrote:
Any point-based system gets too complicated imo. It hink people will use 5 stars for yes, 1 for no and 3 for meh. I don't see 2 stars being used a whole lot, but 4 might get used a lot for decent games. The problem is that some people will think of 5 as an AMAZING game, while others will thik of it as a "you should watch this"-game, which could mean a lot of games will have a pretty even split between 5-star and 4-star votes. Yes/No/Maybe is nice because with a poll that has sufficient amounts of votes it's easy to tell if a game is worth watching or not instantly.
Would this problem be solved by adding descriptors beside each star?
On July 30 2013 07:53 Monochromatic wrote:
I believe that the ideal solution is a combination of Y/N/I and star rating polls. Having an initial Y/N/I poll at the top, then maybe put the star rating poll underneath, in spoilers. That way, one could simply vote and be done with it, or if they desire, they could go into greater detail in the star rating poll. Furthermore, since both polls gather different information, you could combine them into one rating.
For example:
90% recommend game 1 [★★★★★]
60% recommend game 2 [★★★]
10% recommend game 3 [★]
Additionally, a system such as this would help eliminate bias in poll results. One common observation is that when the more popular player loses, less people recommend the game.
Say that Jaedong is facing Sniper at the finals of a major tournament in the last game of a BO7. Sniper decides to 10 pool, and after a long and exciting back-and-forth micro battle, Sniper barely wins. Chances are, most of the people in the LR thread won't be happy, so they don't recommend that game. However, the micro battle made for a great game.
Such a result could look like this:
20% recommend Sniper vs Jaedong [★★★★]
Even though less people would recommend the game, it was still a good game. Hopefully, this would help eliminate some of the fans' bias, and would encourage more thought after such a simple poll. Especially if the star rating poll were in spoilers, since then most people wouldn't vote for it.
Of course such a system has it's faults. If the star rating poll is in spoilers, then perhaps too few would vote in it to make a decision. Additionally, people could still vote down the rating due to the outcome. Finally, making the polls would be twice as much work for the LR thread.
Even with those faults, I believe that this would be the most adequate way to quickly judge a game.
That's an interesting idea but I'm not sure how it removes bias. Angry anti-fans fueled by their rage can easily ruin the results of the spoilered 5-star poll. And as you said, fewer people are likely to vote on it because it is hidden and just an 'added layer' of voting. Less votes; more variance. Anti-fans have greater motivation in ruining game recs (it happens often  ) so their votes might end up skewing results even more in such a poll. It is an idea though and maybe it can be explored further.
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I think you are fighting against the way people use the polls, YouTube used 5 star ratings but dropped it because people overwhelmingly just voted 5s and 1s. Also I think making the polls more complicated is going to lower participation too.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 30 2013 13:34 BathTubNZ wrote:
I think you are fighting against the way people use the polls, YouTube used 5 star ratings but dropped it because people overwhelmingly just voted 5s and 1s. Also I think making the polls more complicated is going to lower participation too.
That's what this thread is for: to determine if people overwhelmingly prefer Y/N/I, or if there is some way to improve other poll formats to make them acceptable. I am not prescribing we use one method or another. I present all that is available as well as possibilities and ask you to decide what you think it best. If that means we stick with Y/N/I then sure, I'm fine with that. But discussion can lead to improvements so I hope people continue to talk about it and not just assume Y/N/I is best. 
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China6329 Posts
I think the current Y/N/I system is just fine, which gives people enough information about a game's quality without being a mess, also it makes compiling good game list like what juicyjames do much much easier, have you considered if you move on to a system like stars, will there be potential problem for him doing it in TWinSC2?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 30 2013 14:52 digmouse wrote:
I think the current Y/N/I system is just fine, which gives people enough information about a game's quality without being a mess, also it makes compiling good game list like what juicyjames do much much easier, have you considered if you move on to a system like stars, will there be potential problem for him doing it in TWinSC2?
juicyjames has commented on it, and basically the conclusion is similar to what I posted in the OP:
Y/N/I is fine, but it doesn't separate good from great games. It is also difficult to get an accurate score.
5-star should be ideal but people don't think about their votes. It's also problematic when vote counts are low.
So basically he thinks the most important thing is to get more people voting on the polls, which I think everyone agrees with. If you have suggestions to make them more popular to use please tell us.
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Just want to say, that today's OSL Ro4 is nice example, why Y/N/Time polls are not working as intended (imo). Every single game of those series was god-awful and every single one is recommended. Now, it was not awful because it was cheesy, it was awful because that was unscouted cheese with close to no defense, basically no fight back from the loser. The winner also didn't have to show excellent micro or anything. Yet people recommended those games, because it was an underdog (and kinda fan-favorite also) winning against huge favorite. So yeah, that's why I think the current system doesn't work properly - it doesn't provide any useful info about the quality of games to the people it is aimed at - the people who want to watch VoDs.
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On July 30 2013 22:09 Ammanas wrote:
Just want to say, that today's OSL Ro4 is nice example, why Y/N/Time polls are not working as intended (imo). Every single game of those series was god-awful and every single one is recommended. Now, it was not awful because it was cheesy, it was awful because that was unscouted cheese with close to no defense, basically no fight back from the loser. The winner also didn't have to show excellent micro or anything. Yet people recommended those games, because it was an underdog (and kinda fan-favorite also) winning against huge favorite. So yeah, that's why I think the current system doesn't work properly - it doesn't provide any useful info about the quality of games to the people it is aimed at - the people who want to watch VoDs.
+ Show Spoiler [Possible OSL Ro4 Spoilers] +I'm not sure about that. The one thing I noticed reading the polls was how ineffective the anti-spoiler polls are. The polls for those games had maybe 1/5 the number of votes of the others. This is a very good hint that those games weren't played. But this may be a different problem entirely.
On July 29 2013 23:22 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 22:54 Melliflue wrote:
Wasn't the MKP vs Bbyong (one of the example games) the first game of their Code A series? In which case there is a free vod on GOMTV. Sorry if I got this wrong.
I like a simple system of how much people recommend a game without the additional information. The problem for me is when I expect a game to be of super high quality then it kind of takes away from the enjoyment. Likewise if I know the game is hilariously bad beforehand, or will be super close. I much prefer not knowing what makes a game good before going in. But this is clearly a personal preference.
I do think hiding the results would help prevent votes being influenced by how other's have already voted. But this would require having a way to vote in a poll and a separate way to view the results of the poll because people who are looking for recommended games can't vote in a poll for a game they haven't seen (so the results can't just be hidden until a vote is cast).
The blog style might help there but I like to see the distribution of votes and not just the average, particularly if I know who is playing. A high number of 1s and 5s may mean a lot of influence by fanboys and anti-fans, but it would give the same average as a mediocre game.
(This is coming from someone who more often looks at the results of polls than votes in polls, but this is because I rarely have time to watch the games live (eg Code S is during work time for me)). The first game of MKP vs Bbyong was on Whirlwind, and that was the terrible game where + Show Spoiler +MKP proxies everything at the Xel'naga, Bbyong scouts it immediately, yet somehow loses . It was a terrible though funny game. The game I am talking about was the one on Anaconda which is slightly better, but incredibly tense and + Show Spoiler +came down to a base trade, single digit supplies, and tiny margins of error which made it exciting .
Oh yeah, you're right. I just remembered the Gumiho vs soO game being bad and remembered MKP vs Bbyong started badly too. I forgot about that game 1 
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 30 2013 22:09 Ammanas wrote:
Just want to say, that today's OSL Ro4 is nice example, why Y/N/Time polls are not working as intended (imo). Every single game of those series was god-awful and every single one is recommended. Now, it was not awful because it was cheesy, it was awful because that was unscouted cheese with close to no defense, basically no fight back from the loser. The winner also didn't have to show excellent micro or anything. Yet people recommended those games, because it was an underdog (and kinda fan-favorite also) winning against huge favorite. So yeah, that's why I think the current system doesn't work properly - it doesn't provide any useful info about the quality of games to the people it is aimed at - the people who want to watch VoDs.
if you read the thread, many many people found the games entertaining
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I concur, I found the games hugely entertaining (watched VoDs afterwards, didn't see the polls). Micro was pretty good, especially the hellions against hellions in game four.
Personally, I like the Y/N/M polls because I'm familiar with them. However, I found the format lichter (?) was using last night for WCS AM Code A Ro40 really good with the stars and descriptions. The descriptions took a minute to get used to, but considering the games are over, there's certainly time to take a read. I feel the format was better than the current system but might take a bit to become fully familiar.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
the problem with the polls was that they took so damn long to read that i was almost cbb by the end of it ;p
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That's basically what I just said. There would be some time needed for everyone to get used to them (the chances of this happening I think would be pretty minimal, people would just see the stars and vote). However, since the game just ended, if you can catch people and get them to vote before they go grab a snack or use the bathroom, it might work.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I really liked the outcome of those polls as well. Not perfect, but pretty good. I'm going to keep using them for the OPs I handle and hopefully others will give it a try too, so that we can see if vote distributions look more 'intelligent' because the descriptions make people think more about their votes.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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I dont get why I can see the results of a poll before voting, this definitly hurts the outcome.
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On August 01 2013 19:54 graNite wrote:
I dont get why I can see the results of a poll before voting, this definitly hurts the outcome.
But it has to be possible to see the results of the poll before voting, otherwise people who check the poll afterwards to see if the game was recommended or not would have to vote before even knowing whether or not they should watch it.
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Yeah of course, just hide the results, show the vote buttons and an additional one "show results" how simple is that. or even better: make two different ways to interprete the pollid in the forum, eg.
[pollvote]234897[/pollvote] only shows poll 234897 and its answers while [pollresults]234897[/pollresults] shows the results.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 01 2013 20:49 graNite wrote:Yeah of course, just hide the results, show the vote buttons and an additional one "show results" how simple is that. or even better: make two different ways to interprete the pollid in the forum, eg. only shows poll 234897 and its answers while shows the results.
There are two degrees or ways to 'obscure' results.
One is to make the results completely hidden, as you suggested, requiring an additional click to see them.
Another is to show the averaged or compiled result while only hiding the distribution.
The first method ensures that there is little or no influence made by previous votes on current voters. This type of influence can be both positive and negative. On the one hand it can make people think about their votes more, instead of voting on impulse (which is likely highly biased). On the other, it could just make people vote for or against the majority (some people are just assholes, some people just want to agree). Hiding the results removes both influences. I am uncertain if the net result is a more accurate or more inaccurate poll. I suppose it is up to preferences.
The second method does influence voters too, but in a more subtle way. One consequence of only hiding distributions is that voters will tend to try to 'force' the compiled result to match their opinion. If they believe the average should be higher, they vote for a score higher than they otherwise would. If they believe the score should be lower, they accordingly vote lower than they would have. If the score is about right, then they vote as they would. This attempt to 'balance' the average has pros and cons. One positive is that it can negate some of the inaccuracies of low vote counts, assuming those that do vote do so intelligently. The 10 voters will end up trying to balance each other out to reach an agreeable mean. It doesn't solve the problem, but it is a slight improvement. However it can also give the poll results greater variance if there are voters who have extreme opinions, since they will try to cancel each other out. Low vote counts is a problem, is what I'm saying.
Anyway I do agree that some kind of result obfuscation is necessary, but which do you prefer: all the results or only its distribution?
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I think the "hidden results"-version just gives the most honest vote, thats why I think you should use it.
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I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not.
Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1?High level of play (1) 33% High entertainment value (1) 33% None, not recommended (1) 33% Awesome build orders (0) 0% Sick sick micro (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play
(Vote): Awesome build orders
(Vote): Sick sick micro
(Vote): High entertainment value
(Vote): None, not recommended
like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo
also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes.
However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could its awesome how much you guys care about the community here
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
The problem with that kind of poll is that some people may want to vote for multiple options. Some games have them all, and the poll should reflect that. If only one criteria can be voted on, you will have situations where the votes are split between Entertainment and Level of Play, for example. 50 vote one, 50 vote for the other. The way the polls are structured, it will look "less good" than a game where 70 people vote for level of play.
To me, the only way a criteria based poll can work is if we allow checkboxes, as I included as an example. This makes the poll soooooo much simpler with the option to vote for multiple criteria. It's also only 1 or 2 clicks more, and doesn't require a lot of time to go through to understand the results.
I will bug waxy to bug R1CH to find a way to checkboxes work.
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Norway25712 Posts
Just noticed the star polls being used in WCS EU right now have 5 stars as "one of the best games this season". Maybe change that to something else? I mean, we're in the Ro16 and for all we know there might be amazing games later on, and there are still a lot of people that auto-vote five stars for games they enjoy, making the games seem better than they are.
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United States97276 Posts
Does that mean the first game of every season has to be 5 stars?
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Hey how does one make a 5 star poll?
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example:
Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1?★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) 63% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) 28% ★★★ - Good game (8) 5% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) 2% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 2% 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars?
On August 06 2013 05:55 vult wrote:
Hey how does one make a 5 star poll?
Just copy and paste the stars from a pre-made poll.
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Well that was an average rating of 4.43. Why not say that the average rating has to be 4 or greater?
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On August 06 2013 06:23 juicyjames wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example: Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1?★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) 63% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) 28% ★★★ - Good game (8) 5% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) 2% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 2% 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars? Just copy and paste the stars from a pre-made poll.
Thanks, someone told me a numpad code but i have a 10-keyless so i cant do those XD
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On August 06 2013 06:23 juicyjames wrote:If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example: Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1?★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) 63% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) 28% ★★★ - Good game (8) 5% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) 2% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 2% 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars?
Just count 4 and 5 stars together? 4 and 5 stars both are recommending the game. In the example above, it would be 89%.
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:26 Entirety wrote:
Well that was an average rating of 4.43. Why not say that the average rating has to be 4 or greater?
Unless I'm missing an automatic way of calculating the average star rating without doing it manually, I have no desire to do the math for every single poll I come across.
On August 06 2013 06:37 ibo422 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:23 juicyjames wrote:If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example: Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1?★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) 63% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) 28% ★★★ - Good game (8) 5% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) 2% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 2% 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars? Just count 4 and 5 stars together? 4 and 5 stars both are recommending the game. In the example above, it would be 89%.
This is actually quite a reasonable solution that I didn't think of. Thanks!
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I haven't seen anyone mention this, but I often look not at the actual rating, but the number of people that voted in the poll.
Thing is, most people don't vote on every poll. There has to be something very interesting to push the lurkers into actually voting, even if it's only a 1-star or No vote. Those games are interesting to me. And usually, high rated games have higher numbers of voters. In fact, I wouldn't mind if there were Recommend type polls with only one option: Yes. The people that don't like the game simply won't vote. No one actually votes 'No' except for the very few honest voters and the odd hater. Look at every single LR thread. Shitty or average games have 30% of the votes as the good ones.
My preferred polls would be a criteria based poll, and a single option 'Yes' poll. The criteria based one for actual information for what type of game it was; "Long Game with Few Battles" is a lot more useful than "If you have time".
I'd also like to see the polls as a link put into one of those headers that appear at the top of the page, instead of hidden within the thread. When threads are moving fast, it's hard to find the poll to vote on it, no matter how many times you guys spam it.
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On August 08 2013 01:22 Yello wrote:Poll: Recommend Naniwa vs Tefel Game 1?★ - Do not see this game no matter what (33) 35% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (25) 27% ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (20) 21% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (10) 11% ★★★ - Good game (6) 6% 94 total votes Your vote: Recommend Naniwa vs Tefel Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
EDITED TO ADD MORE:
This system is TERRIBLE (IMHO), because people have good incentive to vote for higher star numbers for different reason to them being good games (me included).
The previous system did not hint at the quality of the games as much and simply recommended watching them, avoiding them or watching them so long as you don't have limited time.
5 star rating systems aren't needed here and I think they detract.
What's more, what is "5 star" is entirely subjective. I don't just mean taste in games, but how good they must be. THis applies to movies, music, gymnastics (who am I kidding, it's always rigged to be too generous to Russia + whoever the host nation is :"() etc.
Some people only use 5 stars for the very best 1-5 movies/whatever. Others use the 5 star scale as a real scale of basically how good it is from 1 to 5, where 5 has to be great, enjoyable to rewatch and a favourite, but nt necessarily one of the absolute best movies/songs/albums ever made (my approach).
The numbers are too subjective anyway, in that you might be inclined to just pay attention to the most popular vote, but end up voting (after seeing it) very differently to the most popular choice.
You can see polls with 2 and 5 as the most popular results and wonder what it's supposed to mean.
Is it bad but some people found it amusing? If so, will I find it amusing enough to feel glad I watched it? You can't know. It's not very useful, it's just adding complexity that can't necessarily be interpreted usefully.
If the most popular poll option was "Recommended" but the players were Proleague B-teamers, it can hint that they really played very well, or otherwise a lot of people found it really worth watching for some unusually amusing/creative reason, in which case, you too will probably want to watch it, unless you only care about watching the very best, but then, if it IS an amazingly high-level game, you'll probably find out about it later, so you can choose not to watch it now, seeing as someone is then BOUND to show it to you later anyway if it's so good.
I find it easier to get those sorts of gists about whether to watch something without the star ratings that can mean so many different things.
Good old Recommended/Don't Watch/Watch if you have time has worked well for a while and I've been glad it's been that way in the LR threads for Proleague, WCS and GSTL. It made it simple to decide wether you want ed to watch something if you missed the live show.
You would pay attention to the polls, unless you already knew you wanted to watch all games. You would watch whichever specific games you knew you wanted to watch regardless of the polls. The polls were useful for anything you were unsure about and willing to let be decided by polls.
Please don't do a Microsoft/Google/Hotmail and force certain bad changes on us with no options because you happen to see them as good (I'm thinking of the TL interface changes in the top left too now though). :"(
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:41 juicyjames wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:26 Entirety wrote:
Well that was an average rating of 4.43. Why not say that the average rating has to be 4 or greater? Unless I'm missing an automatic way of calculating the average star rating without doing it manually, I have no desire to do the math for every single poll I come across. Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 06:37 ibo422 wrote:On August 06 2013 06:23 juicyjames wrote:If we are going to try out the star ratings, what threshold should a game need to break before it gets listed on This Week in Starcraft 2? For example: Poll: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1?★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (105) 63% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (47) 28% ★★★ - Good game (8) 5% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) 2% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 2% 168 total votes Your vote: Recommend HasuObs vs Grubby Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
That game is clearly recommended, yet it doesn't break the 80%+ threshold I previously would use in old Y/N/I polls. Should it need at least 50%+ votes in either 4 or 5 stars? Just count 4 and 5 stars together? 4 and 5 stars both are recommending the game. In the example above, it would be 89%. This is actually quite a reasonable solution that I didn't think of. Thanks!
Yeah we really need a way for polls to tally the results automatically. If we don't tally the results it defeats the purpose of using 5-star polls. I will ask waxy to ask R1CH if it is possible. If it isn't then 5-star is pointless to use. The game in question is easy to recommend because most of the votes were in 5 and 4 stars, but more even results require more calculation. That game can be gauged by just looking at 4 and 5 stars, and 89% comes out close to the 89.1% that it actually is. But it won't cut it for games with a lot of 3s. If it turns out we can't find a way to auto-tally, I believe the advantages of 5-star become moot.
On August 06 2013 07:29 Fishgle wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention this, but I often look not at the actual rating, but the number of people that voted in the poll.
Thing is, most people don't vote on every poll. There has to be something very interesting to push the lurkers into actually voting, even if it's only a 1-star or No vote. Those games are interesting to me. And usually, high rated games have higher numbers of voters. In fact, I wouldn't mind if there were Recommend type polls with only one option: Yes. The people that don't like the game simply won't vote. No one actually votes 'No' except for the very few honest voters and the odd hater. Look at every single LR thread. Shitty or average games have 30% of the votes as the good ones.
My preferred polls would be a criteria based poll, and a single option 'Yes' poll. The criteria based one for actual information for what type of game it was; "Long Game with Few Battles" is a lot more useful than "If you have time".
I'd also like to see the polls as a link put into one of those headers that appear at the top of the page, instead of hidden within the thread. When threads are moving fast, it's hard to find the poll to vote on it, no matter how many times you guys spam it.
Yeah we've noticed that voter turnout is just as indicative of game quality as the actual votes. The problem is it's difficult to tell between 'uninteresting games therefore no one voted' and 'games weren't seen by a lot of people therefore few votes'. WCS AM LR thread polls usually have this problem, as well as Up & Down matches. The games are actually of good quality but not a lot of people vote on these polls. Seeing a match with 8 Yeses and nothing else doesn't really reveal the game's quality, since you don't know why the other people didn't vote. It could have been an amazing game that few people just bothered to see or vote on. Seeing a game with 8 5-stars is more informative than a Y/N/I with 8 yeses. Again, both styles have pros and cons, but I don't believe Y/N/I solves the problem of low voter turnouts.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:48 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 01:22 Yello wrote:Poll: Recommend Naniwa vs Tefel Game 1?★ - Do not see this game no matter what (33) 35% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (25) 27% ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (20) 21% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (10) 11% ★★★ - Good game (6) 6% 94 total votes Your vote: Recommend Naniwa vs Tefel Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
EDITED TO ADD MORE: This system is TERRIBLE (IMHO), because people have good incentive to vote for higher star numbers for different reason to them being good games (me included). The previous system did not hint at the quality of the games as much and simply recommended watching them, avoiding them or watching them so long as you don't have limited time. 5 star rating systems aren't needed here and I think they detract. What's more, what is "5 star" is entirely subjective. I don't just mean taste in games, but how good they must be. THis applies to movies, music, gymnastics (who am I kidding, it's always rigged to be too generous to Russia + whoever the host nation is :"() etc. Some people only use 5 stars for the very best 1-5 movies/whatever. Others use the 5 star scale as a real scale of basically how good it is from 1 to 5, where 5 has to be great, enjoyable to rewatch and a favourite, but nt necessarily one of the absolute best movies/songs/albums ever made (my approach). The numbers are too subjective anyway, in that you might be inclined to just pay attention to the most popular vote, but end up voting (after seeing it) very differently to the most popular choice. You can see polls with 2 and 5 as the most popular results and wonder what it's supposed to mean. Is it bad but some people found it amusing? If so, will I find it amusing enough to feel glad I watched it? You can't know. It's not very useful, it's just adding complexity that can't necessarily be interpreted usefully. If the most popular poll option was "Recommended" but the players were Proleague B-teamers, it can hint that they really played very well, or otherwise a lot of people found it really worth watching for some unusually amusing/creative reason, in which case, you too will probably want to watch it, unless you only care about watching the very best, but then, if it IS an amazingly high-level game, you'll probably find out about it later, so you can choose not to watch it now, seeing as someone is then BOUND to show it to you later anyway if it's so good. I find it easier to get those sorts of gists about whether to watch something without the star ratings that can mean so many different things. Good old Recommended/Don't Watch/Watch if you have time has worked well for a while and I've been glad it's been that way in the LR threads for Proleague, WCS and GSTL. It made it simple to decide wether you want ed to watch something if you missed the live show. You would pay attention to the polls, unless you already knew you wanted to watch all games. You would watch whichever specific games you knew you wanted to watch regardless of the polls. The polls were useful for anything you were unsure about and willing to let be decided by polls. Please don't do a Microsoft/Google/Hotmail and force certain bad changes on us with no options because you happen to see them as good (I'm thinking of the TL interface changes in the top left too now though). :"(
You need to read the thread before you post your opinion because a lot of what you have said has already been discussed or explained either in the OP or by succeeding posts.
The gist is, the reason 5-star is having a trial period is that it is more informative, and should result in more accurate polls. There is just as much subjectivity in 5-star as Y/N/I. The difference is that while people who disliked a game because of bias may vote a straight "NO" in Y/N/I, 5-star allows them some leeway to give partial points with a 2 or 3. It's a far more forgiving recommendation system. Again, it also has its disadvantages, and that's why we are giving it a trial to see if the hypothetical weaknesses really manifest.
So far, the 5-star plus description polls have received more positive reactions, and the results for most games look promising.
The problem is in the games you are looking at: 2 love/hate players against each other. No matter the poll type, the results will not look very 'logical'. That's the nature of subjective polls. Players that have great positive or negative bias effects will always get weird results. Had it been Y/N/I, it would have been split near 50/50. That's not as informative as the current poll. The other problems that you state occur with 5-star also occur in Y/N/I. We've done these polls enough to know that.
Neither recommendation system is perfect, and that's why we are trying them out and asking the forums which they prefer. Your preference is noted.
And no we are not dictatorially enacting this change. It's a test to see if it's any good and so far people have liked it. That's why we have this thread to discuss it. If we wanted to "do a Microsoft/Google/Hotmail and force certain bad changes" we wouldn't have allowed discussion.
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On August 02 2013 17:14 tl2212 wrote:I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not. + Show Spoiler +Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1?High level of play (1) 33% High entertainment value (1) 33% None, not recommended (1) 33% Awesome build orders (0) 0% Sick sick micro (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play
(Vote): Awesome build orders
(Vote): Sick sick micro
(Vote): High entertainment value
(Vote): None, not recommended
like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes. However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could its awesome how much you guys care about the community here
when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is
Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1?BISOUUUU (1) 100% GAWWWDD (0) 0% Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either :( (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU
(Vote): GAWWWDD
(Vote): Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either :(
pretty sure everyone will watch it
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 15:53 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 17:14 tl2212 wrote:I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not. + Show Spoiler +Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1?High level of play (1) 33% High entertainment value (1) 33% None, not recommended (1) 33% Awesome build orders (0) 0% Sick sick micro (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play
(Vote): Awesome build orders
(Vote): Sick sick micro
(Vote): High entertainment value
(Vote): None, not recommended
like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes. However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could its awesome how much you guys care about the community here when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1?BISOUUUU (1) 100% GAWWWDD (0) 0% Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU
(Vote): GAWWWDD
(Vote): Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either
pretty sure everyone will watch it
When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me
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On August 08 2013 15:56 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 15:53 Arceus wrote:On August 02 2013 17:14 tl2212 wrote:I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not. + Show Spoiler +Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1?High level of play (1) 33% High entertainment value (1) 33% None, not recommended (1) 33% Awesome build orders (0) 0% Sick sick micro (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play
(Vote): Awesome build orders
(Vote): Sick sick micro
(Vote): High entertainment value
(Vote): None, not recommended
like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes. However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could its awesome how much you guys care about the community here when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1?BISOUUUU (1) 100% GAWWWDD (0) 0% Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU
(Vote): GAWWWDD
(Vote): Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either
pretty sure everyone will watch it When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me
I got warned when trying "exciting" polls too xD
Poll: So...Personalized/biased/fun polls \o/ (1) 100% Unified polls all the way x( (0) 0% Mixed up (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: So... (Vote): Personalized/biased/fun polls \o/
(Vote): Unified polls all the way x(
(Vote): Mixed up
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Austria24417 Posts
I like a simple 5 star rating. I find "Yes/No/IYHT" a bit too vague. I for example found HasuObs vs Grubby amazing but I'm sure there's lots of people out there that simply dislike PvP and are thus going to vote "No". Some people will look at the length of that game and say "If you have time". And then there's people like me who would recommend the game, voting "Yes".
The issue I see with that is that a lot of games are good. Within that group for example I liked HasuObs' series against Mvp as well but I'd say him vs Grubby was better. I'd still vote "yes" for both though and that's where the distinction between a good game and an amazing game is lost.
I don't want to be told why exactly they're good however as that just takes away a lot of the excitement when watching a game for the first time. 5 stars is a good middle ground I feel as long as people don't get caught up in the moment of "OMG that was amazing!" and take a second to evaluate how good it actually was.
As for builds/level of play/slugfest options, etc. that could be implemented as an additional poll for those who want to but I don't think it should be the main one.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 08 2013 16:08 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 15:56 lichter wrote:On August 08 2013 15:53 Arceus wrote:On August 02 2013 17:14 tl2212 wrote:I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not. + Show Spoiler +Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1?High level of play (1) 33% High entertainment value (1) 33% None, not recommended (1) 33% Awesome build orders (0) 0% Sick sick micro (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play
(Vote): Awesome build orders
(Vote): Sick sick micro
(Vote): High entertainment value
(Vote): None, not recommended
like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes. However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could its awesome how much you guys care about the community here when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1?BISOUUUU (1) 100% GAWWWDD (0) 0% Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU
(Vote): GAWWWDD
(Vote): Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either
pretty sure everyone will watch it When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me I got warned when trying "exciting" polls too xD Poll: So...Personalized/biased/fun polls \o/ (1) 100% Unified polls all the way x( (0) 0% Mixed up (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: So... (Vote): Personalized/biased/fun polls \o/
(Vote): Unified polls all the way x(
(Vote): Mixed up
I think by now people know I'd prefer personalized polls and OPs, but monk will just warn me again x(
Also juicyjames will kill me
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Poll: Recommended Games Polls?new 5-star with explanation polls (83) 61% Old Yes/No/Ifyouhavetime polls (53) 39% 136 total votes Your vote: Recommended Games Polls? (Vote): Old Yes/No/Ifyouhavetime polls
(Vote): new 5-star with explanation polls
examples: + Show Spoiler [5-star] +Poll: Recommend Mvp vs Ret Game 1?★★★ - Good game (47) 64% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (11) 15% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (8) 11% ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season (5) 7% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3) 4% 74 total votes Your vote: Recommend Mvp vs Ret Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Stephano vs. Duckdeok Game 2?No (31) 53% Yes (19) 32% If you have time (9) 15% 59 total votes Your vote: Recommend Stephano vs. Duckdeok Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
I'll just keep posting this in the next few LRs. I personally prefer the 5-star polls for exactly the reasons Olli just posted
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I have no real preference since I watch like 8-12 hours of SC2 a day so I don't really need recommended game polls =/
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On August 08 2013 15:56 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 15:53 Arceus wrote:On August 02 2013 17:14 tl2212 wrote:I think the criteria poll is cool but you only should include 5 options, Level of play, Entertainment Value, Build Order, Micro, and No / not really. This would actually make the results more like a 5 star poll in distribution, but i think it would still convey a lot of detail about the game and give a good sense of whether the game is recommended or not. + Show Spoiler +Poll: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1?High level of play (1) 33% High entertainment value (1) 33% None, not recommended (1) 33% Awesome build orders (0) 0% Sick sick micro (0) 0% 3 total votes Your vote: What was awesome about Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): High level of play
(Vote): Awesome build orders
(Vote): Sick sick micro
(Vote): High entertainment value
(Vote): None, not recommended
like this. its simple and effective and if the game isn't recommended, people can just vote no. the way you have it now with 17 options is too overthought imo also its funny how you talk about the low voter turnout, and then most of the polls in the OP have like 5 or 10 votes. However this OP is great and very well done! i would rate it 5 stars if i could its awesome how much you guys care about the community here when it comes to the like of your example, the only kind of satisfying poll is Poll: Bisu vs Flash game 1?BISOUUUU (1) 100% GAWWWDD (0) 0% Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either (0) 0% 1 total votes Your vote: Bisu vs Flash game 1? (Vote): BISOUUUU
(Vote): GAWWWDD
(Vote): Im ashamed of myself that I dont like either
pretty sure everyone will watch it When I tried using more 'personalized' polls everyone got mad at me
never use personalized polls in the OP, outside of that its acceptable.
on topic: I have not read the entire thread so if someone already made this point I apologize.
honestly people forget that recommendation polls are not for the live viewers and hope that they do let go of their bias towards their favorite player/race, its for the people who can't watch live.
the stars format caters better to live viewers and how they deem the game to be, while the people who don't have time to watch live are like "so is it worth watching?do I have to take the average and see if its really worth watching?", unless of course the game is really fucking good or really fucking bad.
the reason why yes/no/if you have time works is that its simple and more clear, one look at the poll and you know if its worth the little time that you have to watch.
I don't care if stars become normal, I'm not going to make it hard for those who can't watch, so when I'm LRing I'll do what I want like I always have.
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