Update:! I've updated the guide on 3/22/2013 for heart of the swarm mech. These strategies are currently more hellbat tank based as you can see in the videos below.
Please excuse my bad grammer, english isn't even my second language.
Hello everyone this is HTOMario and I am a Terran Mech player at grandmaster in heart of the swarm. I want to share with you my secrets and thoughts on defeating protoss in this matchup. I have faced many high level protoss and practice this match up the most as for mech it is the hardest to master.
The build
The TvP early game is all about the right opener, you want an opener that is diverse. You wish to be able to attack and defend anything with the proper scouting. For this reason we've chosen the 1-1-1 with some variations. The builder order is below.
Scouting and countering.
With the build order we can transition very safely into any kind of defense, weather it be siege tank marine to stop gateway pushes, or marine widow mine to stop air pushes this build can produce them all. One of the problems players face is the blink stalker all in or the immortal bust. Here is how we can stop the various cheeses.
A) The Dark templar rush. Since we have walled off you can hold energy at 6:45 to decide on if you think it's a templar rush or not. If you do think so simply drop an engineering bay and tech lab on the stargate. Once you see the dark templar just scan to scare it away with a scan while he attacks your wall and proceed to build detection.
B) The blink stalker Rush. We already have a reactor for marines and this helps greatly. From here all we need to do is produce marine, tank and medivac. This will make you completely safe near your production facilities. It's very handy that we already make these near our mineral lines. Once you've confirmed that it's blink stalker put down 2 more bunkers inside your base. 1 near your mineral line 1 near your production. Making it even harder for him to do any damage. From here you simply produce marine tank and get an extra barracks for stim. Once stim has finished feel free to base race him, take 1/2 your workers and walk up to him with marine tank medivac scv. This should simply steam roll him with the amount of units you have. If he decides to base race just lift your buildings to a corner and you will win. Do try to produce a single raven though in case he turns this into a dark templar contain.
C) The 4 gate, just lower your supply depo's and surround your bunker with scvs to repair. This really just is a free win if scouted right. Feel free to throw down another bunker in base if you are worried.
D) The immortal push. With the bunker at the front we just place 2 bunkers further in the base to cover the ramp but can't be hit from the bottem. From here just produce units and send out drops to attack his main with a widow mine or a few marines. E) The oracle rush. If you suspect an oracle rush you will have plenty of marines to deal with it. Just keep 1 in the bunker and chase the oracle until your widow mine finishes on time. If you're worried drop a bunker near your mineral line and voila you're safe. If you notice that he's hording oracles produce vikings as well while teching to a thor. A single one will make you very very safe.
Different ways to harass
Harass is it necessary? NO! but it sure as hell helps! Some opponents will just crumble to your harass and to be honest mech is immobile. You can keep up with a protoss if you really are playing well but it's so much funner to decimate them with harass.
So how do we decide which harass to do? We follow some simple rules. Does he have detection? > No > Widow mine drop / Cloak banshee Does he have detection? > Yes > hellion poke / drop / Raven harass Does he have a stargate? > Yes > Hellion drop / Widow mine drop Does he have a third? > Yes > Hellion poke / drop, Does he have a stargate? No > place raven near third to hunter seeker workers every so often.
Counter the compositions. What unit comp to work on depending on what you scout.
The barracks rally, a lot of times if you try to send a worker back from the mineral line and you have a marine rallied to attack the rocks, the worker can get stuck and not accept it's orders. This is worse when you tell it to build something after it's current construction. This is why I rally my barracks to move further down the ramp then attack the rocks.
Air defense and warp prism defense can be a game breaker. Many protoss try to delay mech or split it's army, kill it's production while it's out by the use of warp prisms. Missile turret rings are great at stopping this.
Expand in opposite corners
You want to keep 2 missile turrets at expansions you can't always defend. Dark templar can snipe 1 pretty easily but 2 takes a lot more focus / units and gives you more time to respond.
Keep proxy pylons away from your base, or scout them in advance.
Upon spotting stargates with your reaper you must always drop an engineering bay a.s.a.p. and start producing widow mines while placing them in proper positions. 3 turrets total should cover you well. 1 in each mineral line and 1 near productions help stop void ray all ins. You can also take out 3 workers from gas since widow mines are not as gas intensive.
Barracks can be key scouting units when playing greedy.
If you know the attack or all in is coming, pre position scvs and bunkers.
Stationary defenses should always be placed in a way where it will be cost effective for you if the enemy engaged.
Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down.
EMP Everything
Even if you win the fight and have a decent size of army left, you need a buffer. Sometimes you must pull back to build them and then re attack with your army.
[
Don't forget that every unit can harass
****Always be cost effective****
For production we want to focus on 3 factories 1 starport. Normally we want 2 tech labs and 1 reactor so we can produce more tanks or thors.
I've been playing around with the thor/mine/hellbat core for the last couple of days after watching your replay pack, and my initial impression is that it's a strong composition. This is the best mech playstyle that I've come across so far, and from my experience on ladder (GM as well, although that's not that high in HotS), tosses are having a hard time handling it. I agree with the majority of your post and think your replays are worth watching, I have just one reservation:
Counter the compositions. What unit comp to work on depending on what you scout.
In order to make this a viable composition, one that stands the test of time, like bio in TvP or marine/tank or mech in TvZ, I think you need to find a way to make one composition (with minimal changes) work. A composition that requires you to transition from banshee to raven to viking to ghost to siege tank to thor to widow mine... etc, based on your opponent's basic robo/gateway composition will force you into a dangerous guessing game once people get the style figured out. There has never been a viable Terran composition that requires you to change so many variables as a response to your opponent's composition, and I don't think there ever will be due to the inherent difficulty in predicting your opponent's reinforcement composition.
My suggestion as you continue this build is to pick one composition (i.e. thor, hellbat, widow mine) and try to counter all compositions by varying at most one unit. In this case, it would be templar tech -> add ghosts, colossus -> vikings. If you can accomplish this, you'll have a truly scary army - one that your opponent has to react to, instead of vice-versa. I think this is possible.
Nice guide, enjoyed it. Will probably have more comments after watching replays.
After taking a look at your replay pack, I love your mech style and have had lots of success. This is the icing on the cake for me. Great guide, great info.
Props to OP on this awesome post! I love your thoughts on the current state of the match-up. I was wondering which P compositions give thor hellbat a hard time? for example can it hold off 2-3 colo timing attack? Also how do you guys feel about slowing building up a high raven count vP??? Mech vs Z I build nonstop ravens at least one at a time, bc it is such a good laetgame unit that is flexible to tech switches, but I'm finding it less effective against toss... maybe due to less clumping... I did notice someones post about rine raven being good...
This composition is really good. After watching HTOMario's stream and asking questions in chat, I got this strategy to work to the point where I can say TvP went from my worst matchup to my best matchup.
On February 14 2013 14:01 Doc Brawler wrote: for example can it hold off 2-3 colo timing attack? Also how do you guys feel about slowing building up a high raven count vP???
I found getting a second Starport once you scout the timing attack to have about 10 Vikings with some Hellbats and bunkers gives you an inpenetrable defense. Also have a third CC available so that once you hold you immediately grab the third.
I find myself building up a Raven count even before I scout Tempests, primarily because HSM can work similarly to EMP.
Thanks for the insight! I am still a huge fan of reaper play into bioball in TvP but when i get bored with that one I definitively try your thing out. Thanks for the tips! I didn't know you can stim marines in a bunker lol!
I love your little detail such as how you kill the rock down the ramp !
Cool styles Mario. I personally have been using tank/hellbat against pretty much everything, but if there's more than one mech style that's viable, that's awesome <3
I've been playing around with the Hellbat/Thor/ghost comp for a little while now. Whilst I've had little success and it does work, it just didn't feel as effective as bio. It does however take more of a beating and can stand better. I may feel this way as I play Zerg, but messing around with Terran in HotS too atm.
This is indeed very helpful and informative guide. There are very common issues listed here you might run into when meching TvP.
This is how I do it:
Macro up 200 supply with 2/2 timing in 15/16 minutes. The composition is Hellbat/Thor + no more than 4 Tanks (I start with them to defend allins + take quick natural/3rd base) and then most likely Vikings (3-5fact/1port). It's very likely Protoss will have a) Colossus b) Voidrays c) Tempests, or any mix of those units and you absolutely need Vikings versus that. If I don't see any stargate or robo bay, it means Zealot/Immortal/Archon. In this case, you might skip Vikings and go for Ghosts. Your army should be Hellbat/Thor heavy no matter what. But those ~4 Tanks are great for sniping HT's, Cannons and forcing engagements, so I still suggest you make at least 4 of them.
You should be able to get ahead in supply or at least trade evenly in the first battle. Then, things are going to happen...
I can't stress enough, how important it is to have each base secured with multiple Turrets, Sensor Towers and Planetary Fortress. You can't afford singe Warp-prism deploying anywhere near your production. You will always lose if Protoss happens to get to your production.
Most Protoss players will abuse warp-in mechanics to wear your economy down if they find themselves losing the big fight when both max for the first time. This, or chronoboosting out air they prefer, be it Tempests or Voidrays most commonly. Carriers take too long.
Also, you need to scan at least once during the bigh fight, because Protoss players love to mix in ~4 Dts in their main army and it might be already too late if you hear dt sound, because they might be already working on your Thors or Tanks.
It's also good to save energy on Orbitals, because you don't need that much minerals and you want your bases to be mining as long as possible. It's super important to scout and possition yourself well in TvP while meching, so use your energy wise. I personally don't use Mules past 10 min mark if everything goes well. It might be actually more effective to use call down supply in this case, lol.
Anyways, I'm sure there are more and more tips for meching TvP. But one thing is for sure. It is possible to mech now in TvP oh boy does it feel good to have powerfull army for once. :D
I've been playing around with the thor/mine/hellbat core for the last couple of days after watching your replay pack, and my initial impression is that it's a strong composition. This is the best mech playstyle that I've come across so far, and from my experience on ladder (GM as well, although that's not that high in HotS), tosses are having a hard time handling it. I agree with the majority of your post and think your replays are worth watching, I have just one reservation:
Counter the compositions. What unit comp to work on depending on what you scout.
In order to make this a viable composition, one that stands the test of time, like bio in TvP or marine/tank or mech in TvZ, I think you need to find a way to make one composition (with minimal changes) work. A composition that requires you to transition from banshee to raven to viking to ghost to siege tank to thor to widow mine... etc, based on your opponent's basic robo/gateway composition will force you into a dangerous guessing game once people get the style figured out. There has never been a viable Terran composition that requires you to change so many variables as a response to your opponent's composition, and I don't think there ever will be due to the inherent difficulty in predicting your opponent's reinforcement composition.
My suggestion as you continue this build is to pick one composition (i.e. thor, hellbat, widow mine) and try to counter all compositions by varying at most one unit. In this case, it would be templar tech -> add ghosts, colossus -> vikings. If you can accomplish this, you'll have a truly scary army - one that your opponent has to react to, instead of vice-versa. I think this is possible.
Nice guide, enjoyed it. Will probably have more comments after watching replays.
The essence of mech is to be prepared. It is cost effectiveness through careful planning. As mech (and terran in general) you are often given the decision to mule but if you already have a healthy hellion count or a mineral bank, you might as well scan (you should be already). Scanning his army every minute (pretty much per production cycle) pays off greatly. In the two circumstances where you'd want more hellions to fight him (mass zealots or no units) you'd still have plenty of hellions. In every other situation, you gain intel which lets you better spend your army. He also cant stop you from scanning his army. You just have too many scans for him to even consider avoiding them.
This is indeed very helpful and informative guide. There are very common issues listed here you might run into when meching TvP.
This is how I do it:
Macro up 200 supply with 2/2 timing in 15/16 minutes. The composition is Hellbat/Thor + no more than 4 Tanks (I start with them to defend allins + take quick natural/3rd base) and then most likely Vikings (3-5fact/1port). It's very likely Protoss will have a) Colossus b) Voidrays c) Tempests, or any mix of those units and you absolutely need Vikings versus that. If I don't see any stargate or robo bay, it means Zealot/Immortal/Archon. In this case, you might skip Vikings and go for Ghosts. Your army should be Hellbat/Thor heavy no matter what. But those ~4 Tanks are great for sniping HT's, Cannons and forcing engagements, so I still suggest you make at least 4 of them.
You should be able to get ahead in supply or at least trade evenly in the first battle. Then, things are going to happen...
I can't stress enough, how important it is to have each base secured with multiple Turrets, Sensor Towers and Planetary Fortress. You can't afford singe Warp-prism deploying anywhere near your production. You will always lose if Protoss happens to get to your production.
Most Protoss players will abuse warp-in mechanics to wear your economy down if they find themselves losing the big fight when both max for the first time. This, or chronoboosting out air they prefer, be it Tempests or Voidrays most commonly. Carriers take too long.
Also, you need to scan at least once during the bigh fight, because Protoss players love to mix in ~4 Dts in their main army and it might be already too late if you hear dt sound, because they might be already working on your Thors or Tanks.
It's also good to save energy on Orbitals, because you don't need that much minerals and you want your bases to be mining as long as possible. It's super important to scout and possition yourself well in TvP while meching, so use your energy wise. I personally don't use Mules past 10 min mark if everything goes well. It might be actually more effective to use call down supply in this case, lol.
Anyways, I'm sure there are more and more tips for meching TvP. But one thing is for sure. It is possible to mech now in TvP oh boy does it feel good to have powerfull army for once. :D
Typically i find waiting for toss to also macro up is never favourable. The general game design of toss is to try and set up a single engagement to be as favourable as possible. I like to refer to a group of units as having a 'melt factor', the speed of which a group of ranged units will melt things before they get close. Every toss unit is has a lot of health. Compare every unit they have to terran units and just about only the colossi can be compared to terran units as a glass cannon. Although obvious, just referring to the extremes on a spectrum: -mech is very cost effective if the opponent does not have enough units to survive the run up, through whatever means -mech is not cost effective if the opponent can close the distance
If the toss wants to attack you before 12 ish mins, your siege tanks should already be positioned well, youre in your base and you should have the appropriate counter units thanks to scanning. But if the toss is content with massing up you have to attack him. Through scanning you can easily do some math "can i kill that?" and in most cases i find i can. You should have all the appropriate counter units thanks to scanning.
On February 14 2013 13:27 iEchoic wrote: I've been playing around with the thor/mine/hellbat core for the last couple of days after watching your replay pack, and my initial impression is that it's a strong composition. This is the best mech playstyle that I've come across so far, and from my experience on ladder (GM as well, although that's not that high in HotS), tosses are having a hard time handling it. I agree with the majority of your post and think your replays are worth watching, I have just one reservation:
In order to make this a viable composition, one that stands the test of time, like bio in TvP or marine/tank or mech in TvZ, I think you need to find a way to make one composition (with minimal changes) work. A composition that requires you to transition from banshee to raven to viking to ghost to siege tank to thor to widow mine... etc, based on your opponent's basic robo/gateway composition will force you into a dangerous guessing game once people get the style figured out. There has never been a viable Terran composition that requires you to change so many variables as a response to your opponent's composition, and I don't think there ever will be due to the inherent difficulty in predicting your opponent's reinforcement composition.
My suggestion as you continue this build is to pick one composition (i.e. thor, hellbat, widow mine) and try to counter all compositions by varying at most one unit. In this case, it would be templar tech -> add ghosts, colossus -> vikings. If you can accomplish this, you'll have a truly scary army - one that your opponent has to react to, instead of vice-versa. I think this is possible.
Nice guide, enjoyed it. Will probably have more comments after watching replays.
Thank you for your feedback, I think the closest thing this strategy would get to be being making them respond to you is by producing thors. It's great against most of their composition however usually we require at least 2 other units to respond properly to the enemy and not just get steam rolled. If i were to pick 3 staple units I would say widow mine thor ghost could be a great way to make the fewest alterations to your composition. I feel we play a little bit more like zerg then terran in this matchup, kind of forced to be reactionary,
I just wanted to make one comment real fast before this topic dies as it seems to be on the verge of doing. Over the spam of heart of the swarm beta there as been pages and pages of outcry for terran mech to work. I'm honestly a little surprised at the little amount of feed back this thread has recieved. The topics that beg for mech to work seem to vastly be more popular then topics showing mech working? I was just curious on if anyone has feed back on why that is. Don't get me wrong I am happy to share information and I did it mostly to help my fellow terran.
It's just that I expected a little more criticism or ideas to be spawned off this.
Hey Mario. I'm actually your clan mate (doa)OrcA. This was an interesting read. I have always been fascinated with mech play ever since bw. I am a toss player, but I like the games that a good meching terran can produce in any matchup. What are your thoughts on zealot bombing and immortal dropping with wprisms in hots? It seems to be pretty effective against mass tank play, even with hellbats.
On February 15 2013 15:13 Lunesta wrote: Hey Mario. I'm actually your clan mate (doa)OrcA. This was an interesting read. I have always been fascinated with mech play ever since bw. I am a toss player, but I like the games that a good meching terran can produce in any matchup. What are your thoughts on zealot bombing and immortal dropping with wprisms in hots? It seems to be pretty effective against mass tank play, even with hellbats.
I actually don't think mass tank play is too effective, you need some form of anti air with you usually in mines, thors or vikings. This helps stop bombing play a lot. However if you find yourself in such a situation it would be great to do drop zealots on sieged tanks.
I'm nearing my 9000th post count, but it's well worth using one of my last remaining posts just to THANK YOU for this guide! Mech ftw :D So much information here, and things like the list of counters is quite interesting but also very time saving. I really appreciate that you've "paved this path" you could say, and share your knowledge.
Hey ! Thanks for being so accurate with this guide ! As far as I can see, TvP mech in HOTS looks the same than in WoL in term of unit composition : tank sucks mid/late game vs protoss in both Wol and HOTS, banshee and ghost are a must to win the game. I feel that widow mine is okay early to prevent all-in strategies but they're not good lategame because of the supply cost : I'd rather have 1 thor instead of 3 WM. I guess you're constantly scouting with helion and banshees, do you still use BFH upgrade ? Raven is also superstrong if it's used to prevent scouting from the P and can be used to harass with banshees. It also goes well with banshees/thor once you destroyed P's observers during the battle. From you point of view, is pdd better than hsm when fighting ? I don't think BC is usefull, did you try it and what about nuke for lategame turtling ? Can you give more details about your expansions timings ?
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