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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 28 2013 23:37 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 22:09 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for? I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me. Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
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On March 29 2013 08:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 23:37 HTOMario wrote:On March 28 2013 22:09 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for? I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me. Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right. Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
Only if you are not good at targeting the right unit.
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On March 29 2013 08:34 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 23:37 HTOMario wrote:On March 28 2013 22:09 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for? I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me. Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right. Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
If he runs his entire army away sure, however you're probably getting shots off and while he waits for shields you re gain energy. You can also use EMP however seeker missile works great and helps prepare for air tech changes.
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I absolutely love that your english is superior to many native english speakers ('least that's my experience in California, USA). Bravo, ser.
Good read, also. Discussions on TvP mech are always really cool to see, since it's never been in the standard metagame long enough for us to really, really dissect. The slow construction times for a Terran mech army still worry me, though :/
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On March 29 2013 10:53 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 08:34 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 23:37 HTOMario wrote:On March 28 2013 22:09 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for? I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me. Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right. Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble? If he runs his entire army away sure, however you're probably getting shots off and while he waits for shields you re gain energy. You can also use EMP however seeker missile works great and helps prepare for air tech changes.
That is some really great analysis. How many ravens should be enough?
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On March 29 2013 18:53 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 10:53 HTOMario wrote:On March 29 2013 08:34 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 23:37 HTOMario wrote:On March 28 2013 22:09 Qikz wrote:On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for? I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me. Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right. Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble? If he runs his entire army away sure, however you're probably getting shots off and while he waits for shields you re gain energy. You can also use EMP however seeker missile works great and helps prepare for air tech changes. That is some really great analysis. How many ravens should be enough?
In the mid game you can stay with 1-2, in the late game 3-4 until you get your BC count up.
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All of these unorthodox TvP compositions are really hard to deal with since everyone goes bio and I have no knowledge of how to play against them. I played one mech player in hots and got destroyed :D I hope to face more mech players so I can learn to play against it better.
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On March 30 2013 03:08 Aiursc wrote: All of these unorthodox TvP compositions are really hard to deal with since everyone goes bio and I have no knowledge of how to play against them. I played one mech player in hots and got destroyed :D I hope to face more mech players so I can learn to play against it better.
I hope it becomes more popular so we can get more people theory crafting!
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I used to have a TvP mech build way back when thors didn't have energy in WoL, I had tons of success with it in high platinum back then. Now that HotS is out I've been trying to re-invent it. I try to hit a timing when I have a thor and hell bat composition with 2 ghosts and a couple medivacs if possible.
so far I've found that a mech army stands up to a protoss army really well. as long as my macro is solid I can at least trade evenly, and if I see that I'm losing a battle I pick up as many thors as I can with the medivacs I have, it seems really micro intensive to pay attention to a battle closely enough to pick up the thors that are about to die but it's well worth saving them. in the late game you want to have at least 2 ghosts and 2 ravens with your army at all times. EMP and HSM synergize really well and PDD is excellent for a mech army to be able to close their distance when initiating an engagement.
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Hi mario, I came unstuck today against a guy who went hardcore 2 base tempest, he just dumped all his gas into going mass tempest as soon as he saw my 2nd factory go down with his obs.
I should have realised when harassing and seeing his army he wasnt massing immortals, hadnt gone colossi or twilight tech so must be going air but I didnt read it at the time.
I was just wondering next time if I can infer he is going for a ridiculously early air transition what steps should I take, as his tempests started bombarding me waaay before I throw up my 2nd and 3rd starports.
Should thor raven (pdd for tempests or seeker for voids) be a good counter to this. just wondered whether its worth making vikings at all this early (vikings dont seem too good against protoss air until you have a lot of them) or just sticking to raven thor until I have my 4th or are maxing out and can afford to throw down the extra starports
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In small numbers vikings and PDD do really well against Tempests but it seems to be a case of diminishing returns as the tempest count grows. In later game situations I've been having success just by charging 20 + widow mines under their sky-toss ball and burrowing.
Also, if someone transitions into air that quickly there really shouldn't be much stopping you from doing a tonne of eco damage with your superior ground comp.
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If your opponent goes tempests with templar, you have to play really, really well to beat it. Just remember if they start going into that that tanks become worse and worse as the game goes on and you really have to already have started to accumulate point defense drones or you will be screwed.
The other thing you can do when the opponent reaches 10+ tempests is to make pure vikings and hellbats. This only works late, late game due to the fact hellbats are 2 supply and so are vikings, so you can try to overpower that one tempest army with mass vikings and good spreading vs templar while using some vehicle blue flame hellions to snipe templar, and all the rest in hellbat mode as your army.
Otherwise, if the game goes to lategame with mech vs P you really play it the same way as every other Terran lategame - start to accumulate raven+vikings to negate tempest shots (you need 6-7 PDD in order to have an invincible army vs tempests) and then just go pure thor on the ground with some hellbats and a couple ghosts.
Mech vs P is difficult, i don't think it's optimal, and it'll only work really well on maps like daybreak and such where there are few attack paths. Well, technically mech vs P can work anywhere on anything with the rule of "if you killed 30 of their workers with banshees, hellbats, widow mines... then mech it 'will work'."
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On April 03 2013 07:25 avilo wrote: If your opponent goes tempests with templar, you have to play really, really well to beat it. Just remember if they start going into that that tanks become worse and worse as the game goes on and you really have to already have started to accumulate point defense drones or you will be screwed.
The other thing you can do when the opponent reaches 10+ tempests is to make pure vikings and hellbats. This only works late, late game due to the fact hellbats are 2 supply and so are vikings, so you can try to overpower that one tempest army with mass vikings and good spreading vs templar while using some vehicle blue flame hellions to snipe templar, and all the rest in hellbat mode as your army.
Otherwise, if the game goes to lategame with mech vs P you really play it the same way as every other Terran lategame - start to accumulate raven+vikings to negate tempest shots (you need 6-7 PDD in order to have an invincible army vs tempests) and then just go pure thor on the ground with some hellbats and a couple ghosts.
Mech vs P is difficult, i don't think it's optimal, and it'll only work really well on maps like daybreak and such where there are few attack paths. Well, technically mech vs P can work anywhere on anything with the rule of "if you killed 30 of their workers with banshees, hellbats, widow mines... then mech it 'will work'."
Viking, raven, ghost, few thor and hellbat, works pretty well against mass tempest, it's a micro dance just like bio vs collosai / storm. Yes late game battles are hard to micro in every situation.
Mech isn't the best build style, bio is currently stronger. However mech is weaker on some maps just like terran or zerg or protoss is weaker on some, stronger on others. I'm able to make mech work great on nearly all maps.
I'm currently sitting at 60% win loss on NA floating inbetween 40-90 GM ranking. On Eu I am 66% win loss as 1100 points master. It's hard to judge if it's viable or not since it doesn't have much experimentation between top players in HOTS. I do know however that colstc, dragon, roxkisbratok and I are all able to make it work at high gm rankings after practicing for a while. I believe goody is doing really well too. I don't think mech HOTS or bio has been fully discovered and we'll just have to see how things turn out over time.
Thanks for your feed back!
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On April 03 2013 05:23 ThePianoDentist wrote: Hi mario, I came unstuck today against a guy who went hardcore 2 base tempest, he just dumped all his gas into going mass tempest as soon as he saw my 2nd factory go down with his obs.
I should have realised when harassing and seeing his army he wasnt massing immortals, hadnt gone colossi or twilight tech so must be going air but I didnt read it at the time.
I was just wondering next time if I can infer he is going for a ridiculously early air transition what steps should I take, as his tempests started bombarding me waaay before I throw up my 2nd and 3rd starports.
Should thor raven (pdd for tempests or seeker for voids) be a good counter to this. just wondered whether its worth making vikings at all this early (vikings dont seem too good against protoss air until you have a lot of them) or just sticking to raven thor until I have my 4th or are maxing out and can afford to throw down the extra starports
At early economy stages like this you can double reactor viking and keep producing your ground army. You'll be able to overwhelm him trying to take a 3rd or 4th. Once he goes tempest and you are producing so many vikings you can out expand him because it's hard for tempest to cross the map in small numbers, use this to your advantage to secure more gas. You can simply make thor hellbat viking until you have enough gas to throw in ravens or ghosts. Depending on how soon he gets templar. Once he gets templar you want ghosts a.s.a.p. or a great split if he has a low number of tempests.
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Thanks for the write-up. Personally I am currently opening 2 Factory aggression with Tanks and Widow Mines. I pretty much always kill the Natural. Nexus Cannon isn't even an issue, just bring a few scvs to repair the Tanks, while they shell the Nexus.
What's nice is that WM do extra 35 dmg to shields and take out Immortal Shields very quickly. Personally I like that 2 Factory sets you up for having a very robust Tank Hellion Mine army, while with 1-1-1 I often feel I'm on the lean side and very short on the essential Mech Upgrades because I'm getting the Starport + Raven + Banshees.
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On February 14 2013 12:20 HTOMario wrote:Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down. + Show Spoiler +
I laughed so hard, I've just started getting back into Sc2 and this is just as evil as dt/lurker at expo points. WHERE DID MY PROBE GO I IKNOW I SENT IT THERE I KNOW IT FUCK YOU IM NOT CRAZY
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On April 03 2013 18:01 Railxp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 12:20 HTOMario wrote:Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down. + Show Spoiler + I laughed so hard, I've just started getting back into Sc2 and this is just as evil as dt/lurker at expo points. WHERE DID MY PROBE GO I IKNOW I SENT IT THERE I KNOW IT FUCK YOU IM NOT CRAZY
whats fun is having a group of hellions on standby and if he goes to clear out this one mine with his whole army (happens quite a bit) you just drive into his natural and kill all his probes there xD
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On April 03 2013 18:28 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 18:01 Railxp wrote:On February 14 2013 12:20 HTOMario wrote:Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down. + Show Spoiler + I laughed so hard, I've just started getting back into Sc2 and this is just as evil as dt/lurker at expo points. WHERE DID MY PROBE GO I IKNOW I SENT IT THERE I KNOW IT FUCK YOU IM NOT CRAZY whats fun is having a group of hellions on standby and if he goes to clear out this one mine with his whole army (happens quite a bit) you just drive into his natural and kill all his probes there xD
I have done this and I can vouch that for some reason they send most of their army every time...
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On April 03 2013 13:03 HTOMario wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 07:25 avilo wrote: If your opponent goes tempests with templar, you have to play really, really well to beat it. Just remember if they start going into that that tanks become worse and worse as the game goes on and you really have to already have started to accumulate point defense drones or you will be screwed.
The other thing you can do when the opponent reaches 10+ tempests is to make pure vikings and hellbats. This only works late, late game due to the fact hellbats are 2 supply and so are vikings, so you can try to overpower that one tempest army with mass vikings and good spreading vs templar while using some vehicle blue flame hellions to snipe templar, and all the rest in hellbat mode as your army.
Otherwise, if the game goes to lategame with mech vs P you really play it the same way as every other Terran lategame - start to accumulate raven+vikings to negate tempest shots (you need 6-7 PDD in order to have an invincible army vs tempests) and then just go pure thor on the ground with some hellbats and a couple ghosts.
Mech vs P is difficult, i don't think it's optimal, and it'll only work really well on maps like daybreak and such where there are few attack paths. Well, technically mech vs P can work anywhere on anything with the rule of "if you killed 30 of their workers with banshees, hellbats, widow mines... then mech it 'will work'." Viking, raven, ghost, few thor and hellbat, works pretty well against mass tempest, it's a micro dance just like bio vs collosai / storm. Yes late game battles are hard to micro in every situation. Mech isn't the best build style, bio is currently stronger. However mech is weaker on some maps just like terran or zerg or protoss is weaker on some, stronger on others. I'm able to make mech work great on nearly all maps. I'm currently sitting at 60% win loss on NA floating inbetween 40-90 GM ranking. On Eu I am 66% win loss as 1100 points master. It's hard to judge if it's viable or not since it doesn't have much experimentation between top players in HOTS. I do know however that colstc, dragon, roxkisbratok and I are all able to make it work at high gm rankings after practicing for a while. I believe goody is doing really well too. I don't think mech HOTS or bio has been fully discovered and we'll just have to see how things turn out over time. Thanks for your feed back!
Np d00d, we need more people being ballers playing mech. The more people play it and are familiar with it, the more knowledge we gain overall. Of course that also means P/Z get more familiar with it and have better counters...which can be good so they QQ less :D
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Wow thank you HTOMario for this amazing safe opening. I was having a lot of trouble in my TvP matches while playing bio, because i LOVE bio! Then i decided it was enough and i went on looking for other options, why not mech?... But the opening you showed me works very well for my bio play.
I just got top 8 masters NA, or doesn't that mean anything? :p lol gg.
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