Update:! I've updated the guide on 3/22/2013 for heart of the swarm mech. These strategies are currently more hellbat tank based as you can see in the videos below.
Please excuse my bad grammer, english isn't even my second language.
Hello everyone this is HTOMario and I am a Terran Mech player at grandmaster in heart of the swarm. I want to share with you my secrets and thoughts on defeating protoss in this matchup. I have faced many high level protoss and practice this match up the most as for mech it is the hardest to master.
The build
The TvP early game is all about the right opener, you want an opener that is diverse. You wish to be able to attack and defend anything with the proper scouting. For this reason we've chosen the 1-1-1 with some variations. The builder order is below.
Scouting and countering.
With the build order we can transition very safely into any kind of defense, weather it be siege tank marine to stop gateway pushes, or marine widow mine to stop air pushes this build can produce them all. One of the problems players face is the blink stalker all in or the immortal bust. Here is how we can stop the various cheeses.
A) The Dark templar rush. Since we have walled off you can hold energy at 6:45 to decide on if you think it's a templar rush or not. If you do think so simply drop an engineering bay and tech lab on the stargate. Once you see the dark templar just scan to scare it away with a scan while he attacks your wall and proceed to build detection.
B) The blink stalker Rush. We already have a reactor for marines and this helps greatly. From here all we need to do is produce marine, tank and medivac. This will make you completely safe near your production facilities. It's very handy that we already make these near our mineral lines. Once you've confirmed that it's blink stalker put down 2 more bunkers inside your base. 1 near your mineral line 1 near your production. Making it even harder for him to do any damage. From here you simply produce marine tank and get an extra barracks for stim. Once stim has finished feel free to base race him, take 1/2 your workers and walk up to him with marine tank medivac scv. This should simply steam roll him with the amount of units you have. If he decides to base race just lift your buildings to a corner and you will win. Do try to produce a single raven though in case he turns this into a dark templar contain.
C) The 4 gate, just lower your supply depo's and surround your bunker with scvs to repair. This really just is a free win if scouted right. Feel free to throw down another bunker in base if you are worried.
D) The immortal push. With the bunker at the front we just place 2 bunkers further in the base to cover the ramp but can't be hit from the bottem. From here just produce units and send out drops to attack his main with a widow mine or a few marines. E) The oracle rush. If you suspect an oracle rush you will have plenty of marines to deal with it. Just keep 1 in the bunker and chase the oracle until your widow mine finishes on time. If you're worried drop a bunker near your mineral line and voila you're safe. If you notice that he's hording oracles produce vikings as well while teching to a thor. A single one will make you very very safe.
Different ways to harass
Harass is it necessary? NO! but it sure as hell helps! Some opponents will just crumble to your harass and to be honest mech is immobile. You can keep up with a protoss if you really are playing well but it's so much funner to decimate them with harass.
So how do we decide which harass to do? We follow some simple rules. Does he have detection? > No > Widow mine drop / Cloak banshee Does he have detection? > Yes > hellion poke / drop / Raven harass Does he have a stargate? > Yes > Hellion drop / Widow mine drop Does he have a third? > Yes > Hellion poke / drop, Does he have a stargate? No > place raven near third to hunter seeker workers every so often.
Counter the compositions. What unit comp to work on depending on what you scout.
The barracks rally, a lot of times if you try to send a worker back from the mineral line and you have a marine rallied to attack the rocks, the worker can get stuck and not accept it's orders. This is worse when you tell it to build something after it's current construction. This is why I rally my barracks to move further down the ramp then attack the rocks.
Air defense and warp prism defense can be a game breaker. Many protoss try to delay mech or split it's army, kill it's production while it's out by the use of warp prisms. Missile turret rings are great at stopping this.
Expand in opposite corners
You want to keep 2 missile turrets at expansions you can't always defend. Dark templar can snipe 1 pretty easily but 2 takes a lot more focus / units and gives you more time to respond.
Keep proxy pylons away from your base, or scout them in advance.
Upon spotting stargates with your reaper you must always drop an engineering bay a.s.a.p. and start producing widow mines while placing them in proper positions. 3 turrets total should cover you well. 1 in each mineral line and 1 near productions help stop void ray all ins. You can also take out 3 workers from gas since widow mines are not as gas intensive.
Barracks can be key scouting units when playing greedy.
If you know the attack or all in is coming, pre position scvs and bunkers.
Stationary defenses should always be placed in a way where it will be cost effective for you if the enemy engaged.
Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down.
EMP Everything
Even if you win the fight and have a decent size of army left, you need a buffer. Sometimes you must pull back to build them and then re attack with your army.
[
Don't forget that every unit can harass
****Always be cost effective****
For production we want to focus on 3 factories 1 starport. Normally we want 2 tech labs and 1 reactor so we can produce more tanks or thors.
I've been playing around with the thor/mine/hellbat core for the last couple of days after watching your replay pack, and my initial impression is that it's a strong composition. This is the best mech playstyle that I've come across so far, and from my experience on ladder (GM as well, although that's not that high in HotS), tosses are having a hard time handling it. I agree with the majority of your post and think your replays are worth watching, I have just one reservation:
Counter the compositions. What unit comp to work on depending on what you scout.
In order to make this a viable composition, one that stands the test of time, like bio in TvP or marine/tank or mech in TvZ, I think you need to find a way to make one composition (with minimal changes) work. A composition that requires you to transition from banshee to raven to viking to ghost to siege tank to thor to widow mine... etc, based on your opponent's basic robo/gateway composition will force you into a dangerous guessing game once people get the style figured out. There has never been a viable Terran composition that requires you to change so many variables as a response to your opponent's composition, and I don't think there ever will be due to the inherent difficulty in predicting your opponent's reinforcement composition.
My suggestion as you continue this build is to pick one composition (i.e. thor, hellbat, widow mine) and try to counter all compositions by varying at most one unit. In this case, it would be templar tech -> add ghosts, colossus -> vikings. If you can accomplish this, you'll have a truly scary army - one that your opponent has to react to, instead of vice-versa. I think this is possible.
Nice guide, enjoyed it. Will probably have more comments after watching replays.
After taking a look at your replay pack, I love your mech style and have had lots of success. This is the icing on the cake for me. Great guide, great info.
Props to OP on this awesome post! I love your thoughts on the current state of the match-up. I was wondering which P compositions give thor hellbat a hard time? for example can it hold off 2-3 colo timing attack? Also how do you guys feel about slowing building up a high raven count vP??? Mech vs Z I build nonstop ravens at least one at a time, bc it is such a good laetgame unit that is flexible to tech switches, but I'm finding it less effective against toss... maybe due to less clumping... I did notice someones post about rine raven being good...
This composition is really good. After watching HTOMario's stream and asking questions in chat, I got this strategy to work to the point where I can say TvP went from my worst matchup to my best matchup.
On February 14 2013 14:01 Doc Brawler wrote: for example can it hold off 2-3 colo timing attack? Also how do you guys feel about slowing building up a high raven count vP???
I found getting a second Starport once you scout the timing attack to have about 10 Vikings with some Hellbats and bunkers gives you an inpenetrable defense. Also have a third CC available so that once you hold you immediately grab the third.
I find myself building up a Raven count even before I scout Tempests, primarily because HSM can work similarly to EMP.
Thanks for the insight! I am still a huge fan of reaper play into bioball in TvP but when i get bored with that one I definitively try your thing out. Thanks for the tips! I didn't know you can stim marines in a bunker lol!
I love your little detail such as how you kill the rock down the ramp !
Cool styles Mario. I personally have been using tank/hellbat against pretty much everything, but if there's more than one mech style that's viable, that's awesome <3
I've been playing around with the Hellbat/Thor/ghost comp for a little while now. Whilst I've had little success and it does work, it just didn't feel as effective as bio. It does however take more of a beating and can stand better. I may feel this way as I play Zerg, but messing around with Terran in HotS too atm.
This is indeed very helpful and informative guide. There are very common issues listed here you might run into when meching TvP.
This is how I do it:
Macro up 200 supply with 2/2 timing in 15/16 minutes. The composition is Hellbat/Thor + no more than 4 Tanks (I start with them to defend allins + take quick natural/3rd base) and then most likely Vikings (3-5fact/1port). It's very likely Protoss will have a) Colossus b) Voidrays c) Tempests, or any mix of those units and you absolutely need Vikings versus that. If I don't see any stargate or robo bay, it means Zealot/Immortal/Archon. In this case, you might skip Vikings and go for Ghosts. Your army should be Hellbat/Thor heavy no matter what. But those ~4 Tanks are great for sniping HT's, Cannons and forcing engagements, so I still suggest you make at least 4 of them.
You should be able to get ahead in supply or at least trade evenly in the first battle. Then, things are going to happen...
I can't stress enough, how important it is to have each base secured with multiple Turrets, Sensor Towers and Planetary Fortress. You can't afford singe Warp-prism deploying anywhere near your production. You will always lose if Protoss happens to get to your production.
Most Protoss players will abuse warp-in mechanics to wear your economy down if they find themselves losing the big fight when both max for the first time. This, or chronoboosting out air they prefer, be it Tempests or Voidrays most commonly. Carriers take too long.
Also, you need to scan at least once during the bigh fight, because Protoss players love to mix in ~4 Dts in their main army and it might be already too late if you hear dt sound, because they might be already working on your Thors or Tanks.
It's also good to save energy on Orbitals, because you don't need that much minerals and you want your bases to be mining as long as possible. It's super important to scout and possition yourself well in TvP while meching, so use your energy wise. I personally don't use Mules past 10 min mark if everything goes well. It might be actually more effective to use call down supply in this case, lol.
Anyways, I'm sure there are more and more tips for meching TvP. But one thing is for sure. It is possible to mech now in TvP oh boy does it feel good to have powerfull army for once. :D
I've been playing around with the thor/mine/hellbat core for the last couple of days after watching your replay pack, and my initial impression is that it's a strong composition. This is the best mech playstyle that I've come across so far, and from my experience on ladder (GM as well, although that's not that high in HotS), tosses are having a hard time handling it. I agree with the majority of your post and think your replays are worth watching, I have just one reservation:
Counter the compositions. What unit comp to work on depending on what you scout.
In order to make this a viable composition, one that stands the test of time, like bio in TvP or marine/tank or mech in TvZ, I think you need to find a way to make one composition (with minimal changes) work. A composition that requires you to transition from banshee to raven to viking to ghost to siege tank to thor to widow mine... etc, based on your opponent's basic robo/gateway composition will force you into a dangerous guessing game once people get the style figured out. There has never been a viable Terran composition that requires you to change so many variables as a response to your opponent's composition, and I don't think there ever will be due to the inherent difficulty in predicting your opponent's reinforcement composition.
My suggestion as you continue this build is to pick one composition (i.e. thor, hellbat, widow mine) and try to counter all compositions by varying at most one unit. In this case, it would be templar tech -> add ghosts, colossus -> vikings. If you can accomplish this, you'll have a truly scary army - one that your opponent has to react to, instead of vice-versa. I think this is possible.
Nice guide, enjoyed it. Will probably have more comments after watching replays.
The essence of mech is to be prepared. It is cost effectiveness through careful planning. As mech (and terran in general) you are often given the decision to mule but if you already have a healthy hellion count or a mineral bank, you might as well scan (you should be already). Scanning his army every minute (pretty much per production cycle) pays off greatly. In the two circumstances where you'd want more hellions to fight him (mass zealots or no units) you'd still have plenty of hellions. In every other situation, you gain intel which lets you better spend your army. He also cant stop you from scanning his army. You just have too many scans for him to even consider avoiding them.
This is indeed very helpful and informative guide. There are very common issues listed here you might run into when meching TvP.
This is how I do it:
Macro up 200 supply with 2/2 timing in 15/16 minutes. The composition is Hellbat/Thor + no more than 4 Tanks (I start with them to defend allins + take quick natural/3rd base) and then most likely Vikings (3-5fact/1port). It's very likely Protoss will have a) Colossus b) Voidrays c) Tempests, or any mix of those units and you absolutely need Vikings versus that. If I don't see any stargate or robo bay, it means Zealot/Immortal/Archon. In this case, you might skip Vikings and go for Ghosts. Your army should be Hellbat/Thor heavy no matter what. But those ~4 Tanks are great for sniping HT's, Cannons and forcing engagements, so I still suggest you make at least 4 of them.
You should be able to get ahead in supply or at least trade evenly in the first battle. Then, things are going to happen...
I can't stress enough, how important it is to have each base secured with multiple Turrets, Sensor Towers and Planetary Fortress. You can't afford singe Warp-prism deploying anywhere near your production. You will always lose if Protoss happens to get to your production.
Most Protoss players will abuse warp-in mechanics to wear your economy down if they find themselves losing the big fight when both max for the first time. This, or chronoboosting out air they prefer, be it Tempests or Voidrays most commonly. Carriers take too long.
Also, you need to scan at least once during the bigh fight, because Protoss players love to mix in ~4 Dts in their main army and it might be already too late if you hear dt sound, because they might be already working on your Thors or Tanks.
It's also good to save energy on Orbitals, because you don't need that much minerals and you want your bases to be mining as long as possible. It's super important to scout and possition yourself well in TvP while meching, so use your energy wise. I personally don't use Mules past 10 min mark if everything goes well. It might be actually more effective to use call down supply in this case, lol.
Anyways, I'm sure there are more and more tips for meching TvP. But one thing is for sure. It is possible to mech now in TvP oh boy does it feel good to have powerfull army for once. :D
Typically i find waiting for toss to also macro up is never favourable. The general game design of toss is to try and set up a single engagement to be as favourable as possible. I like to refer to a group of units as having a 'melt factor', the speed of which a group of ranged units will melt things before they get close. Every toss unit is has a lot of health. Compare every unit they have to terran units and just about only the colossi can be compared to terran units as a glass cannon. Although obvious, just referring to the extremes on a spectrum: -mech is very cost effective if the opponent does not have enough units to survive the run up, through whatever means -mech is not cost effective if the opponent can close the distance
If the toss wants to attack you before 12 ish mins, your siege tanks should already be positioned well, youre in your base and you should have the appropriate counter units thanks to scanning. But if the toss is content with massing up you have to attack him. Through scanning you can easily do some math "can i kill that?" and in most cases i find i can. You should have all the appropriate counter units thanks to scanning.
On February 14 2013 13:27 iEchoic wrote: I've been playing around with the thor/mine/hellbat core for the last couple of days after watching your replay pack, and my initial impression is that it's a strong composition. This is the best mech playstyle that I've come across so far, and from my experience on ladder (GM as well, although that's not that high in HotS), tosses are having a hard time handling it. I agree with the majority of your post and think your replays are worth watching, I have just one reservation:
In order to make this a viable composition, one that stands the test of time, like bio in TvP or marine/tank or mech in TvZ, I think you need to find a way to make one composition (with minimal changes) work. A composition that requires you to transition from banshee to raven to viking to ghost to siege tank to thor to widow mine... etc, based on your opponent's basic robo/gateway composition will force you into a dangerous guessing game once people get the style figured out. There has never been a viable Terran composition that requires you to change so many variables as a response to your opponent's composition, and I don't think there ever will be due to the inherent difficulty in predicting your opponent's reinforcement composition.
My suggestion as you continue this build is to pick one composition (i.e. thor, hellbat, widow mine) and try to counter all compositions by varying at most one unit. In this case, it would be templar tech -> add ghosts, colossus -> vikings. If you can accomplish this, you'll have a truly scary army - one that your opponent has to react to, instead of vice-versa. I think this is possible.
Nice guide, enjoyed it. Will probably have more comments after watching replays.
Thank you for your feedback, I think the closest thing this strategy would get to be being making them respond to you is by producing thors. It's great against most of their composition however usually we require at least 2 other units to respond properly to the enemy and not just get steam rolled. If i were to pick 3 staple units I would say widow mine thor ghost could be a great way to make the fewest alterations to your composition. I feel we play a little bit more like zerg then terran in this matchup, kind of forced to be reactionary,
I just wanted to make one comment real fast before this topic dies as it seems to be on the verge of doing. Over the spam of heart of the swarm beta there as been pages and pages of outcry for terran mech to work. I'm honestly a little surprised at the little amount of feed back this thread has recieved. The topics that beg for mech to work seem to vastly be more popular then topics showing mech working? I was just curious on if anyone has feed back on why that is. Don't get me wrong I am happy to share information and I did it mostly to help my fellow terran.
It's just that I expected a little more criticism or ideas to be spawned off this.
Hey Mario. I'm actually your clan mate (doa)OrcA. This was an interesting read. I have always been fascinated with mech play ever since bw. I am a toss player, but I like the games that a good meching terran can produce in any matchup. What are your thoughts on zealot bombing and immortal dropping with wprisms in hots? It seems to be pretty effective against mass tank play, even with hellbats.
On February 15 2013 15:13 Lunesta wrote: Hey Mario. I'm actually your clan mate (doa)OrcA. This was an interesting read. I have always been fascinated with mech play ever since bw. I am a toss player, but I like the games that a good meching terran can produce in any matchup. What are your thoughts on zealot bombing and immortal dropping with wprisms in hots? It seems to be pretty effective against mass tank play, even with hellbats.
I actually don't think mass tank play is too effective, you need some form of anti air with you usually in mines, thors or vikings. This helps stop bombing play a lot. However if you find yourself in such a situation it would be great to do drop zealots on sieged tanks.
I'm nearing my 9000th post count, but it's well worth using one of my last remaining posts just to THANK YOU for this guide! Mech ftw :D So much information here, and things like the list of counters is quite interesting but also very time saving. I really appreciate that you've "paved this path" you could say, and share your knowledge.
Hey ! Thanks for being so accurate with this guide ! As far as I can see, TvP mech in HOTS looks the same than in WoL in term of unit composition : tank sucks mid/late game vs protoss in both Wol and HOTS, banshee and ghost are a must to win the game. I feel that widow mine is okay early to prevent all-in strategies but they're not good lategame because of the supply cost : I'd rather have 1 thor instead of 3 WM. I guess you're constantly scouting with helion and banshees, do you still use BFH upgrade ? Raven is also superstrong if it's used to prevent scouting from the P and can be used to harass with banshees. It also goes well with banshees/thor once you destroyed P's observers during the battle. From you point of view, is pdd better than hsm when fighting ? I don't think BC is usefull, did you try it and what about nuke for lategame turtling ? Can you give more details about your expansions timings ?
On February 15 2013 14:40 HTOMario wrote: I just wanted to make one comment real fast before this topic dies as it seems to be on the verge of doing. Over the spam of heart of the swarm beta there as been pages and pages of outcry for terran mech to work. I'm honestly a little surprised at the little amount of feed back this thread has recieved. The topics that beg for mech to work seem to vastly be more popular then topics showing mech working? I was just curious on if anyone has feed back on why that is. Don't get me wrong I am happy to share information and I did it mostly to help my fellow terran.
It's just that I expected a little more criticism or ideas to be spawned off this.
I agree with you, I feel than a lot of bronze/diamond people just want a 1A tank army to kill every protoss composition without scouting and being safe all the time, and that's what they call "mech" -> only tanks. These won't get you any interesting feedback !
Interesting strategy and replays. What I found surprising is that you use widow mines beyond early game. In my experience if you use widow mines with your army vs Protoss they are just as likely to damage your own units as the opponent, ie the Zealots rush in and the mines splash your tank/thors to death.
Also I find that vs Carriers the problem is that mines attack the interceptors instead of the Carriers, either just wasting their shots, or killing your vikings at the same time due to splash.
So I just go mass Hellbat/Viking with Thor, Medivac and Ghost support. That composition is not really hard countered by anything Protoss has. It still dies to mass Carriers but as long as the push starts before he has mass air it works decently.
The key thing though is not unit composition. It is having enough factories so that you can remax fast enough if you trade. I have lost count on how many games I lost because I pushed before I had enough factories for a fast remax.
One thing I've noticed is that it really matters how you possition your army in the fight. I mean, surely it does, but I was surprised how much of a difference it makes. The insane amount of DPS dealth by both sides is just happening instantly and if you have say 3-4 Immortals having free reign over your Thors/Tanks, you can lose the fight. At the same time, if you protect your heavy gas units correctly, Protoss will not fight cost effectively.
I think Mario, you could probably make a section where you would describe how to possition your army correctly and how to micro, what is priority, etc.. I find personally find this a big deal right after macro/scouting when meching.
On February 15 2013 14:40 HTOMario wrote: I just wanted to make one comment real fast before this topic dies as it seems to be on the verge of doing. Over the spam of heart of the swarm beta there as been pages and pages of outcry for terran mech to work. I'm honestly a little surprised at the little amount of feed back this thread has recieved. The topics that beg for mech to work seem to vastly be more popular then topics showing mech working? I was just curious on if anyone has feed back on why that is. Don't get me wrong I am happy to share information and I did it mostly to help my fellow terran.
It's just that I expected a little more criticism or ideas to be spawned off this.
I agree with you, I feel than a lot of bronze/diamond people just want a 1A tank army to kill every protoss composition without scouting and being safe all the time, and that's what they call "mech" -> only tanks. These won't get you any interesting feedback !
I would hardly say people want a 1A tank army to work. If anything this is more 1A than that would be.
I've already said I find his composition interesting, but I seem to be finding more enjoyment/more success with tank/hellbat/viking and personally don't actually see what benefits using thors gives you over using tanks and vikings with hellbat support.
Especially against something like a gateway composition with templar support. Even immortal archon can be dealt with with tank hellbat by just using good EMPs. I'm happy people have found a way to make it work of course, but I'd rather stick to my style.
On February 15 2013 14:40 HTOMario wrote: I just wanted to make one comment real fast before this topic dies as it seems to be on the verge of doing. Over the spam of heart of the swarm beta there as been pages and pages of outcry for terran mech to work. I'm honestly a little surprised at the little amount of feed back this thread has recieved. The topics that beg for mech to work seem to vastly be more popular then topics showing mech working? I was just curious on if anyone has feed back on why that is. Don't get me wrong I am happy to share information and I did it mostly to help my fellow terran.
It's just that I expected a little more criticism or ideas to be spawned off this.
It's because mass Thor/ Hellbat mech comps are not what a lot of people see or want mech to be. Mass Warhound was very bad to watch, mass Thor is not a lot better.
Well, with heavy-Tank based play (I mean pure Hellbat/Tank/Viking) I have following problems:
1) I need Vikings to prevent single Voidray/Tempest ruining my day. Then I lose to Zealot/Immortal/Archon while having dead supply in Vikings.
2) I need Ghosts, because pure Immortal/Zealot/Archon will devastate said Hellbat/Tank/Viking.
3) All my Tanks are dead supply the second Protoss switches to air, which is going to happen sooner or later.
So going Tanks forces me to go Vikings and Ghosts and more specifically, correct ratio between those 2 units, while going Thors is more forgiving.
Thor is just more universal, tank is very specialized.
I still like to use ~4-6 Tanks in my army to force engagements, snipe Ht's, cannons or just hold ground vs Colossus. I just can't imagine myself not going for Thors, because it deals very well with all gateway units, clumped up Voidrays, can take beating from Archon/Immortal and somewhat gives you chance to fight heavy air. It's just too good not to use them.
You still need to add Ghosts/Vikings if Protoss army is specialized in one way, but it's way easier for me to play mech with focus on Thors.
[quote][QUOTE]On February 15 2013 19:14 Everlong wrote: Well, with heavy-Tank based play (I mean pure Hellbat/Tank/Viking) I have following problems:
1) I need Vikings to prevent single Voidray/Tempest ruining my day. Then I lose to Zealot/Immortal/Archon while having dead supply in Vikings.
2) I need Ghosts, because pure Immortal/Zealot/Archon will devastate said Hellbat/Tank/Viking.
3) All my Tanks are dead supply the second Protoss switches to air, which is going to happen sooner or later.
So going Tanks forces me to go Vikings and Ghosts and more specifically, correct ratio between those 2 units, while going Thors is more forgiving.
Thor is just more universal, tank is very specialized.
I still like to use ~4-6 Tanks in my army to force engagements, snipe Ht's, cannons or just hold ground vs Colossus. I just can't imagine myself not going for Thors, because it deals very well with all gateway units, clumped up Voidrays, can take beating from Archon/Immortal and somewhat gives you chance to fight heavy air. It's just too good not to use them.
You still need to add Ghosts/Vikings if Protoss army is specialized in one way, but it's way easier for me to play mech with focus on Thors. [/QUOTE]
[quote]I disagree with those. If he's going zealot/immortal/archon you scout it with your constant scans and don't overmake vikings. You need ghosts with thors anyway because immortal zealot is really good against all mech compositions and if the toss is switching air, you can scout it since you have so many scans and go push him and punish him for being low on units.
The only time tank/hellbat doesn't work against Toss is if you play overly defensive and let the toss do whatever they want. You can make some really nice midgame pushes with it if you learn the timings for whatever level you are.
Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread. If Mario's style works too, that's awesome. More mech styles, more variety, the better for the game IMO.
On February 15 2013 19:14 Everlong wrote: Well, with heavy-Tank based play (I mean pure Hellbat/Tank/Viking) I have following problems:
1) I need Vikings to prevent single Voidray/Tempest ruining my day. Then I lose to Zealot/Immortal/Archon while having dead supply in Vikings.
2) I need Ghosts, because pure Immortal/Zealot/Archon will devastate said Hellbat/Tank/Viking.
3) All my Tanks are dead supply the second Protoss switches to air, which is going to happen sooner or later.
So going Tanks forces me to go Vikings and Ghosts and more specifically, correct ratio between those 2 units, while going Thors is more forgiving.
Thor is just more universal, tank is very specialized.
I still like to use ~4-6 Tanks in my army to force engagements, snipe Ht's, cannons or just hold ground vs Colossus. I just can't imagine myself not going for Thors, because it deals very well with all gateway units, clumped up Voidrays, can take beating from Archon/Immortal and somewhat gives you chance to fight heavy air. It's just too good not to use them.
You still need to add Ghosts/Vikings if Protoss army is specialized in one way, but it's way easier for me to play mech with focus on Thors.
I disagree with those. If he's going zealot/immortal/archon you scout it with your constant scans and don't overmake vikings. You need ghosts with thors anyway because immortal zealot is really good against all mech compositions and if the toss is switching air, you can scout it since you have so many scans and go push him and punish him for being low on units.
The only time tank/hellbat doesn't work against Toss is if you play overly defensive and let the toss do whatever they want. You can make some really nice midgame pushes with it if you learn the timings for whatever level you are.
Ok, I'm going to try it this evening, so I'll post my results.
But I really doubt I can go Hellbat/Tank heads on vs Protoss. I often run into something like Zealot/Immortal/Archon + Voidrays and what I don't like about Tanks is that the second I'm missing critical number of some units (be it Ghosts or Vikings, or Hellbats as a buffer), whole my army gets overrun like immidiately. If I fail to scan correctly how many Voidrays he has (which happens), I'm done. With Thors, I can deal with Voidrays somewhat okay. Similar situation happens with Ghosts, but Ghosts are generally good against all Protoss units, so you can't really go wrong with them. That leaves us with air being the only problem. I mean, Thors are not THAT much worse vs all ground, but they are infinetely better against air. Also, I don't like to go for some kind of 3base "all-in" mech push. I take into account the game could go longer then 20 min. I guess I just want to be more well-rounded with my army composition. Notice that I don't skip Tanks completely. I just build my army around Hellbat/Thor and I take Tanks as a support unit, much like Vikings or Ghosts.
I'm in masters in WoL, currently top8 diamond in HotS if you are interested.
So far I find tvp the hardest to make mech work mainly because of the air switch by toss. Tempests seem to shut down mech quite hard even with a good amount of vikings. Just wondering when against a skytoss with vrs and tempest which mode should thors be in? I find the splash quite useful against vrs cause they tend to clump but really bad vs tempests.
On February 17 2013 03:38 reconcrap wrote: So far I find tvp the hardest to make mech work mainly because of the air switch by toss. Tempests seem to shut down mech quite hard even with a good amount of vikings. Just wondering when against a skytoss with vrs and tempest which mode should thors be in? I find the splash quite useful against vrs cause they tend to clump but really bad vs tempests.
Thor Viking Ghost is very strong against Protoss air. But I honestly feel like Protoss air is super strong currently and it's hard for all the races to deal with it. I'm expecting it to get toned down. If you're actively scouting the protoss though, you should realize the air switch and respond accordingly. If you just do your own thing and have the wrong unit composition, you may just straight up lose the game. This works both ways though, if Protoss doesnt respond to mech properly with certain unit composition, they just lose.
I just wanted to make one comment real fast before this topic dies as it seems to be on the verge of doing. Over the spam of heart of the swarm beta there as been pages and pages of outcry for terran mech to work. I'm honestly a little surprised at the little amount of feed back this thread has recieved. The topics that beg for mech to work seem to vastly be more popular then topics showing mech working? I was just curious on if anyone has feed back on why that is. Don't get me wrong I am happy to share information and I did it mostly to help my fellow terran.
It's just that I expected a little more criticism or ideas to be spawned off this.
I don't know if I am just being stubborn or what, but what makes me love mech from bw all the way to hots is the siege tank. I know, I know, I shouldn't be picky, but while I guess this is mech, it seems more of a death ball than true mech. The concept of having to deploy before the unit can even fire (and its long range, high splash) is what makes mech mech. Too me atleast this is hardly different to bio, just hellbats instead of marines and other support units instead of viking, ghost etc.
Don't take this as a discouragement or rant (even if it is by definition), it's really cool Mario and others are trying to make factory units work, but to me at least, this comp/style isn't different to any other death ball. I sincerely hope blizz will make the siege tank effective in TvP. =]
btw, I have Mario's stream open in a pinned tab all the time with adblock off, so I do honestly admire and am trying to support your efforts.
Great guide Mario! As Echoic said, a core of hellbat, thor, and widow mine seems to work really well (I'm only masters though, not GM like you two :-P). Then, adding in a handful of tanks/ghosts/vikings (situationally dependent for each) helps you hold most anything. After the 200/200 2/2 engage, I find myself remaxxing on a high number of ravens too, at that point. Ravens are too good to not use in this matchup with a (relatively) spammable AoE spell and PDD to block tempest/stalker shots.
My question regarding widow mines is: when do you get the burrow upgrade for them? Gas always seems to be short until the third base is established, and even then the mech player wants double armory and more factories. I can't seem to figure out where to squeeze it in. Right before I move out seems to be the most logical, as that's when the mobility is required, but I am not sure.
On February 17 2013 07:09 JoshFreeman wrote: Great guide Mario! As Echoic said, a core of hellbat, thor, and widow mine seems to work really well (I'm only masters though, not GM like you two :-P). Then, adding in a handful of tanks/ghosts/vikings (situationally dependent for each) helps you hold most anything. After the 200/200 2/2 engage, I find myself remaxxing on a high number of ravens too, at that point. Ravens are too good to not use in this matchup with a (relatively) spammable AoE spell and PDD to block tempest/stalker shots.
My question regarding widow mines is: when do you get the burrow upgrade for them? Gas always seems to be short until the third base is established, and even then the mech player wants double armory and more factories. I can't seem to figure out where to squeeze it in. Right before I move out seems to be the most logical, as that's when the mobility is required, but I am not sure.
I really like to get it around the same time I establish my third, I require more ground to cover and need to relocate faster.
Thanks for all the great feedback and support everyone.
Great article! Can you please write something like this for TvZ and may be TvT
Don't know how to handle ultra+viper with pure mech. I win only against impatient zergs who attack heavily fortified positions or choke points. And if zerg counterattack or using drops it's very easy to catch t unsiedged or clamped, and easy to kill for zerg with vipers.
I saw your old replays but may be you are using some new strats?
On February 19 2013 07:23 dargul wrote: Great article! Can you please write something like this for TvZ and may be TvT
Don't know how to handle ultra+viper with pure mech. I win only against impatient zergs who attack heavily fortified positions or choke points. And if zerg counterattack or using drops it's very easy to catch t unsiedged or clamped, and easy to kill for zerg with vipers.
I saw your old replays but may be you are using some new strats?
It's possible that I will in the future, at the moment I'm occupied with trying to improve my stream first.
Thanks for this guide! I enjoy your stream quite a bit. I much rather see you play than to see people like DeMuslim, who just tries to play Wol in Hots.
On February 19 2013 23:06 llIH wrote: You should stream more often Mario!
Hard to donate so much time to a hobby ^^ I need to win tournaments or something to be able to really donate more time into starcraft. I have my wife and kids to think about. <3
Thanks for the read. So sad that viable mech does not include siege tank as a core unit. It appears many higher level players almost exclusively use thors as their main composition, since they do exceptional damage (which tanks lack) and deal with smaller numbers of stargate units with reasonable efficiency.
On February 20 2013 03:03 StarkHarrow wrote: Well... I suppose you can see things like that Everlong, but still... Hellbat/Thor is a poor design...
Anyway, yeah, thanks for the effort Mario.
I was watching your past vids and saw a Hellbat/Tank/Viking army being used in TvP. Was in the first game of your game from yesterday.
Willing to give a try to a non thor based army ? (couldn't watch more than this, so i don't know if you tried again...)
I'm currently working on a more brood war like style with more tanks. It will take time to work out the kinks though.
Looking forward to this! I'm trying hellbat/tank/mine as a core composition vs everything, not having much success :/
I have found that 5 rax 1 starport seems to be the best amount of structure until they tech to air so far, still trying to balance the proper mix of units and find out when I need to change things up. I do like to add a few widow mines though.
Ive also been playing mech vs toss, but it would be nice to have non allin openers. ive just been 1-1-1 off 2 base, get up more base, then more gas, then upgrades then buildings, then units, then kill him
Long time big fan here. I really hope some pros will pick up your builds and use them in tournaments. But I think most likely they will play the TvP just like WoL, except some Kespa pros how have been obsessed with mech.
Update:! I've updated the guide on 3/22/2013 for heart of the swarm mech. Please take a look over the new information and provide lots of feedback / discussion!
I mean, with Bio you can outplay them a lot. With mech, what do you do ?
You do realise you can outplay someone as mech too right? I'm not talking about just Mario's style, but there's plenty of tank based styles along with timing pushes that work vs toss and even going against Skytoss mech can actually win, sure you have to switch into skyterran to do it, but you still open/have a midgame of mech.
You can even do doom drop styles as mech, especially on maps where the bases are not completely on top of each other. If you can manage to drop and control their ramp with hellbats/mines while your tanks shell them/their production then you can win the game that way.
I'm really unsure if you're genuinly interested in mech or just bashing his post with points that so many people have made in the past (which most, as the beta have gone on have shown untrue). Tanks do not suck in TvP, they only really suck against immortals and archons which you get tanks/hellbats to deal with, or even thors depending on what style you're going for. You're making such blanket statements when to me it seems you've never even tried to learn the style here or your own mech style.
Mech works, sure no pros have shown it outside of the KoTH matches in the beta, but people are not instantly going to change a style they've been playing for 3 years already for a style they've barely practiced.
On March 23 2013 22:55 JonIrenicus wrote: Hi HtoMario,
I don't want to sound polemic.
Why should I choose mech over Bio?
In the first videos I saw you were using the thor/hellbat composition, finding it very good, but that's not a mech composition. Mech should be centered around a tank army.
Tank, sadly, in sc2, sucks. I saw that in the last replays you are more likely to add tanks , but still I would not make tanks , even if I was a fool.
I saw you are in Gm , and playing against protoss that don't even use air. Protoss haven't still understood that all they gotta do is mass a huge amount of sky ships and the game for the meching T is practically useless. I saw lot of your games, and people keep playing against your mech like if it was bio.
Well, would you call hellbat a meching unit? All they gotta add is just stim , so this will be definitely a 100% meching unit (irony).
Another thing I would dare to say: the fact that your opponents are so bad (people making stalkers against your "mech" composition), makes me dare to say that you are gm not because mech is that strong (even if you seem likely to have practiced a lot with it and like it a lot), but because people don't know how to counter "mech", together with your extremely good decision making.
I would dare to say that if you used bio, your results would be even better.
I mean, with Bio you can outplay them a lot. With mech, what do you do ? You just get a critical mass of units. Even Iechoic said that the fact that you gotta switch the composition is a weak point. It's the reason why mech will never work.
Check out the other videos, I use tanks as the backbone as my often more often then not. I have plenty of protoss that try to go air i just haven't uploaded any. They're usually incredibly hard countered I have no issues so far facing sky toss at all.
I define mech as anything out of the factory, but as I stated I do throw in mass tanks in most of my builds.
You can outplay people a lot with with mech just the same as bio, stalkers aren't actually that bad against mech since you can force base races and pick off units on the retreat easily. The best thing you can do is abuse a mech terran and stalkers do this.
I mean, with Bio you can outplay them a lot. With mech, what do you do ?
I'm really unsure if you're genuinly interested in mech or just bashing his post with points that so many people have made in the past (which most, as the beta have gone on have shown untrue). Tanks do not suck in TvP, they only really suck against immortals and archons which you get tanks/hellbats to deal with, or even thors depending on what style you're going for. You're making such blanket statements when to me it seems you've never even tried to learn the style here or your own mech style. .
I mean, with Bio you can outplay them a lot. With mech, what do you do ?
I'm really unsure if you're genuinly interested in mech or just bashing his post with points that so many people have made in the past (which most, as the beta have gone on have shown untrue). Tanks do not suck in TvP, they only really suck against immortals and archons which you get tanks/hellbats to deal with, or even thors depending on what style you're going for. You're making such blanket statements when to me it seems you've never even tried to learn the style here or your own mech style. .
I felt the same way
I would just ignore a post that say:
"Dude you do everything wrong but I have nothing to support this statement!"
I mean, I have played several times against Mario and I think that if you invest a bit of time and get your scouting right this style can be beaten, but that goes for everything... What I can guarantee is that when you face this for the first time you will hate Terran a lot!
On March 24 2013 02:18 ThePianoDentist wrote: hi, if they go air, do you engage the thors special anti-air mode for any of the possible compositions you face?
On March 24 2013 04:47 Thyriaen wrote: Hi there, i just checked out the EU version of the game and i enjoyed it alot. But i think it would be nice to have a public-friendly darft mode ( where everyone can pick their own units - in a draft manner ). Because darfting with a captain isnt always the best option when you are playing with random ppl. Darft mode is still a very nice addition the the monobattles and shoud be further supported.
Thats why i recommend adding a draft mode ( or editing one of them ) in the following manner ( equally to random draft in dota2 ): The order of picks is preset bind to players - players are picking one by one in a draft manner.
Thanks for this cool mod and i hope you are continuing to support ur mod
hey mario. im ur big fan since beta.. u did awsome opening and ur understanding against 3 races are fantastic . please keep it on to teach us terren strategy . and i hope that u could not only teach us tvp. but tvz and tvt with mech play.. i love mech play and i knew that u r the man that do it since beta. and i do kept all ur rep that shared and hopefully u can keep on sharing ur rep to all of us that love mech .. . Tbh, i cant wait to see your TvZ guide ...Mario, U r Awsome man.~!!
do you have a replay pack somewhere as im really struggling with how to engage a maxed protoss 3/3/3 carriers with high templar. even with pdds before the fight my stuff just seems to melt.
also when your opponent does a proxy stargate 3 gate-allin how do you handle it with your opener and also how do you transition, it would be nice to see a replay of that, as i can hold it with your opener but then im stuck in my main for ages and i also find it hard to transition to mech after making so many marines, should I try and use more widow mines for defence rather than relying on marines?
That's a link to his thread with some great mech replays, and I'm sure you don't need me to tell you how awesome they are.
But Mario, dude your brilliant. Keep up the good work! Been glued to your Youtube channel, and feel like I may be able to break into top masters soon because of it.
On March 25 2013 18:58 Snoodles wrote: Question: For thors vs void rays, is it better to use explosive payload or just the regular attacks?
In practice it should be high-impact payload for strictly thors versus void rays. However, it may be more useful to to have the thors on explosive if the void rays will be clumping up at all. Regardless, the void rays are going to destroy the thors.
On March 25 2013 18:58 Snoodles wrote: Question: For thors vs void rays, is it better to use explosive payload or just the regular attacks?
In practice it should be high-impact payload for strictly thors versus void rays. However, it may be more useful to to have the thors on explosive if the void rays will be clumping up at all. Regardless, the void rays are going to destroy the thors.
The key fighting Voidrays is:
You need to kill them as fast as possible. Nothing else really matters, because the longer Voidrays stay alive, the less is your chance winning the battle.
So, how do we get rid of them as fast as possible?
The answer is splash + finisher. For splash, you need explosive playload of Thors, Mines, or Ravens. Possibly combination of those options.
As finisher, use Vikings and/or high impact payload of Thors.
Thors alone will not cut it unless you have really large number of them. The best way is getting Raven/Viking fleet as a support to your ground army.
Just wanted to thank you for this thread and your replay pack I m going to try your style tonight as soon as im home (work -_-). I ve always been a bit bored of bio and this has sealed the deal: tonight im going Mech <3
A quick question: When and how many medivacs will you make to heal your hellbats (apart from the 1st one for harass if you go down that route)?
Ill probably have loads more after trying and loosing and watching your replays etc.
Hey, thanks for the guide and the replay pack in the other thread. Really fun style.
I'm just wondering what you are thinking about micro wise in your big engages with tank/hellbat/widow mine? In the replay pack, I saw you had your whole army on just one hotkey, and from what I saw, it looks like you siege up first, then attack with hellbats as you tab through to widow mines and try to bury them right against the front of the enemies army? Is that right, is there anything else you are trying to do when you are in large fights?
Seems like as long as your hellbats are in the enemies range, the widow mines won't get attacked unless they are targeted, so you can really get in close to burrow.
Are you doing anything specific versus specific ground units? Like trying to get close to immortals or archons, or are widow mines too random to really get any control out of?
On March 26 2013 01:43 frankfasthands wrote: Hey, thanks for the guide and the replay pack in the other thread. Really fun style.
I'm just wondering what you are thinking about micro wise in your big engages with tank/hellbat/widow mine? In the replay pack, I saw you had your whole army on just one hotkey, and from what I saw, it looks like you siege up first, then attack with hellbats as you tab through to widow mines and try to bury them right against the front of the enemies army? Is that right, is there anything else you are trying to do when you are in large fights?
Seems like as long as your hellbats are in the enemies range, the widow mines won't get attacked unless they are targeted, so you can really get in close to burrow.
Are you doing anything specific versus specific ground units? Like trying to get close to immortals or archons, or are widow mines too random to really get any control out of?
On March 26 2013 04:11 Douillos wrote: Well, im getting owned hard by mass immortals... Ghosts are they way to go i guess?
When I go for mech in TvP I always try and keep 2 ghosts with my army to EMP the immortals, once the immortal's shields are down they melt away a lot faster.
Really nice, I played some games after watching some of your vods. I won most of my games, only one game was less than 30 minutes, (all TvP) where it was close spawns and I decided to do a 1/1 upgrade all in.
I dont mind bio, maybe im bad but, I dont feel good when the game lasts past 25 minutes in a TvP whilst im bio. So gratz and thank you. HotS kicking ass.
On March 26 2013 11:19 ThisisRaider wrote: Really nice, I played some games after watching some of your vods. I won most of my games, only one game was less than 30 minutes, (all TvP) where it was close spawns and I decided to do a 1/1 upgrade all in.
I dont mind bio, maybe im bad but, I dont feel good when the game lasts past 25 minutes in a TvP whilst im bio. So gratz and thank you. HotS kicking ass.
I've noticed most of my games are past the 30 minute mark, I must admit it makes for long but epic games once we get there because resource hunting isn't as much of an issue it's all about the fights.
On March 26 2013 23:06 Porishan wrote: What could I do if harassment don't work against Protoss ?
Your ravens should at least be able to get a few probe kills if you play it well enough, whether with seeker missiles or auto turrets. Widow mine drops and hellbat drops at the correct times can also be effective.
Mario, I just wanna say that I really appreciate your videos! Even more so because you explain not just what you're doing, but WHY you're doing it. That is awesome. Thanks!!
I don't play Terran, but these mech games are so fun to watch! Hope pro players start trying these compositions in tournaments when HotS is a bit more developed.
I just got promoted back to diamond (as I was in WOL) after beating a consistent master protoss with mario style mech. I think he could have won, the fights were really close, but he was too eager to end the game / kill me. Maybe he thought I would not remax as fast as him or something.
I still think he was better than me and could have beaten me if he was more patient.
Mr mario, do I want ghosts AND raven, or just one of the two at a time?
Yes this is a semi pride post. xD They should really enable you to upload replays directly on TL.
On March 27 2013 20:42 allqwdd wrote: Hi there I am Terran player from Taiwan. Can I translate this awesome articles into Chinese? Never use mech in TvP trying to learn from you!
What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
How do you counter tempests when his stalkers are sitting under them and already eats my PDD energy from stalker/tempest shots? I don't want to be too agressive with my Raven because he may get fed back or picked off by a blinked stalker group. I also do not want to advance my mech off the high ground and give up position. So how do I pick him off? I keep having to waste my PDD with tempest play. What else can I incorporate?
On March 29 2013 01:07 Blamajama wrote: How do you counter tempests when his stalkers are sitting under them and already eats my PDD energy from stalker/tempest shots? I don't want to be too agressive with my Raven because he may get fed back or picked off by a blinked stalker group. I also do not want to advance my mech off the high ground and give up position. So how do I pick him off? I keep having to waste my PDD with tempest play. What else can I incorporate?
Thors are great against stalkers, throw in a few hellbats and go viking / raven with them. This should walk over his army. Be sure to be in high impact mode.
So Thor is better than tanks against blink stalker? Tank AoE tends to be more effective I thought. Plus more range ground to ground. I definitely have a few Thors mixed in, but I don't think cutting tanks out completely (depending on the map) is good enough. I just think the Tempest composition with Stalker/immortal seems to decimate mech. This guy was going more collossi though I still lost.
Don't get me wrong, mech is still decent. I lost the game I'm talking about because I did not have enough production facilities to remax while the toss insta-warped a near maxed army after the first major exchange, which could have been better on my end.
I personaly think that toss has no more of and advantage against mech than against bio, its harder to out right kill the tosser, but the same goes for him killing you. It sucks that you cant snipe tech with as much ease, but you still kill workers (faster than bio even)
Obviously it will also take quite a while to learn all the basics like it took when you 1st picked up Terran.
Also siege tanks late game are bad against almost everything TvP. Im sure everyone who plays mech loves siege tanks, Siege tanks are great defencive units, but it had its place and fullfilled its role, kinda like sentries, maybe even stalkers.
Do you mind posting your openings for tvz and tvt? I love this style so I'm using it in every matchup to practice as I climb, but as soon as I run into a competent zerg or a 8/8/8 terran I know I'll get destroyed immediately. Thanks.
Hey Mario, what are the signs of a mass overlord roach drop? How do you hold it? I tried a mech build today, hellion/hellbat thor tank and had turrets all over but the zerg went ahead and roach dropped anyway.
On March 29 2013 05:50 Snoodles wrote: Hey Mario, what are the signs of a mass overlord roach drop? How do you hold it?
Lot's of overlords in the one spot, with good map control it should be relatively easy to spot something like this and prepare. As for defending it, widow mines should be able to shot down several of the overlords before they even get the chance to drop their units, or you can hold them back for when the drop happens then burrow them to hit the roaches. Other than that, I am not sure. The times I have held it it's because I used a little medivac/tank micro to save some and get the tanks onto high ground to siege up and be protected by turrets.
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
Only if you are not good at targeting the right unit.
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
If he runs his entire army away sure, however you're probably getting shots off and while he waits for shields you re gain energy. You can also use EMP however seeker missile works great and helps prepare for air tech changes.
I absolutely love that your english is superior to many native english speakers ('least that's my experience in California, USA). Bravo, ser.
Good read, also. Discussions on TvP mech are always really cool to see, since it's never been in the standard metagame long enough for us to really, really dissect. The slow construction times for a Terran mech army still worry me, though :/
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
If he runs his entire army away sure, however you're probably getting shots off and while he waits for shields you re gain energy. You can also use EMP however seeker missile works great and helps prepare for air tech changes.
That is some really great analysis. How many ravens should be enough?
On March 28 2013 21:52 Mali__Slon wrote: What is good composition when facing army consisting mostly of stalkers, 3 - 4 collosi, 4 - 5 immortals, and 3-4 voidrays? I have faced this composition a few times and lost, i would like to know what comp should i be going for?
I know I'm not Mario, but to me it sounds like you need tank/hellbat/viking/(turrets if you're in a defensive position or going for a slow push) for that situation and if it's later in the game a few ghosts. That's what I usually go for against that sort of comp atleast. Works out for me.
Going with hellbat thor raven and vikings would do really well against this, hunter seeker can take out shields on immortals and PDD can stop stalkers attack out right.
Isn't relying on hunter seeker for shields a bit of a gamble?
If he runs his entire army away sure, however you're probably getting shots off and while he waits for shields you re gain energy. You can also use EMP however seeker missile works great and helps prepare for air tech changes.
That is some really great analysis. How many ravens should be enough?
In the mid game you can stay with 1-2, in the late game 3-4 until you get your BC count up.
All of these unorthodox TvP compositions are really hard to deal with since everyone goes bio and I have no knowledge of how to play against them. I played one mech player in hots and got destroyed :D I hope to face more mech players so I can learn to play against it better.
On March 30 2013 03:08 Aiursc wrote: All of these unorthodox TvP compositions are really hard to deal with since everyone goes bio and I have no knowledge of how to play against them. I played one mech player in hots and got destroyed :D I hope to face more mech players so I can learn to play against it better.
I hope it becomes more popular so we can get more people theory crafting!
I used to have a TvP mech build way back when thors didn't have energy in WoL, I had tons of success with it in high platinum back then. Now that HotS is out I've been trying to re-invent it. I try to hit a timing when I have a thor and hell bat composition with 2 ghosts and a couple medivacs if possible.
so far I've found that a mech army stands up to a protoss army really well. as long as my macro is solid I can at least trade evenly, and if I see that I'm losing a battle I pick up as many thors as I can with the medivacs I have, it seems really micro intensive to pay attention to a battle closely enough to pick up the thors that are about to die but it's well worth saving them. in the late game you want to have at least 2 ghosts and 2 ravens with your army at all times. EMP and HSM synergize really well and PDD is excellent for a mech army to be able to close their distance when initiating an engagement.
Hi mario, I came unstuck today against a guy who went hardcore 2 base tempest, he just dumped all his gas into going mass tempest as soon as he saw my 2nd factory go down with his obs.
I should have realised when harassing and seeing his army he wasnt massing immortals, hadnt gone colossi or twilight tech so must be going air but I didnt read it at the time.
I was just wondering next time if I can infer he is going for a ridiculously early air transition what steps should I take, as his tempests started bombarding me waaay before I throw up my 2nd and 3rd starports.
Should thor raven (pdd for tempests or seeker for voids) be a good counter to this. just wondered whether its worth making vikings at all this early (vikings dont seem too good against protoss air until you have a lot of them) or just sticking to raven thor until I have my 4th or are maxing out and can afford to throw down the extra starports
In small numbers vikings and PDD do really well against Tempests but it seems to be a case of diminishing returns as the tempest count grows. In later game situations I've been having success just by charging 20 + widow mines under their sky-toss ball and burrowing.
Also, if someone transitions into air that quickly there really shouldn't be much stopping you from doing a tonne of eco damage with your superior ground comp.
If your opponent goes tempests with templar, you have to play really, really well to beat it. Just remember if they start going into that that tanks become worse and worse as the game goes on and you really have to already have started to accumulate point defense drones or you will be screwed.
The other thing you can do when the opponent reaches 10+ tempests is to make pure vikings and hellbats. This only works late, late game due to the fact hellbats are 2 supply and so are vikings, so you can try to overpower that one tempest army with mass vikings and good spreading vs templar while using some vehicle blue flame hellions to snipe templar, and all the rest in hellbat mode as your army.
Otherwise, if the game goes to lategame with mech vs P you really play it the same way as every other Terran lategame - start to accumulate raven+vikings to negate tempest shots (you need 6-7 PDD in order to have an invincible army vs tempests) and then just go pure thor on the ground with some hellbats and a couple ghosts.
Mech vs P is difficult, i don't think it's optimal, and it'll only work really well on maps like daybreak and such where there are few attack paths. Well, technically mech vs P can work anywhere on anything with the rule of "if you killed 30 of their workers with banshees, hellbats, widow mines... then mech it 'will work'."
On April 03 2013 07:25 avilo wrote: If your opponent goes tempests with templar, you have to play really, really well to beat it. Just remember if they start going into that that tanks become worse and worse as the game goes on and you really have to already have started to accumulate point defense drones or you will be screwed.
The other thing you can do when the opponent reaches 10+ tempests is to make pure vikings and hellbats. This only works late, late game due to the fact hellbats are 2 supply and so are vikings, so you can try to overpower that one tempest army with mass vikings and good spreading vs templar while using some vehicle blue flame hellions to snipe templar, and all the rest in hellbat mode as your army.
Otherwise, if the game goes to lategame with mech vs P you really play it the same way as every other Terran lategame - start to accumulate raven+vikings to negate tempest shots (you need 6-7 PDD in order to have an invincible army vs tempests) and then just go pure thor on the ground with some hellbats and a couple ghosts.
Mech vs P is difficult, i don't think it's optimal, and it'll only work really well on maps like daybreak and such where there are few attack paths. Well, technically mech vs P can work anywhere on anything with the rule of "if you killed 30 of their workers with banshees, hellbats, widow mines... then mech it 'will work'."
Viking, raven, ghost, few thor and hellbat, works pretty well against mass tempest, it's a micro dance just like bio vs collosai / storm. Yes late game battles are hard to micro in every situation.
Mech isn't the best build style, bio is currently stronger. However mech is weaker on some maps just like terran or zerg or protoss is weaker on some, stronger on others. I'm able to make mech work great on nearly all maps.
I'm currently sitting at 60% win loss on NA floating inbetween 40-90 GM ranking. On Eu I am 66% win loss as 1100 points master. It's hard to judge if it's viable or not since it doesn't have much experimentation between top players in HOTS. I do know however that colstc, dragon, roxkisbratok and I are all able to make it work at high gm rankings after practicing for a while. I believe goody is doing really well too. I don't think mech HOTS or bio has been fully discovered and we'll just have to see how things turn out over time.
On April 03 2013 05:23 ThePianoDentist wrote: Hi mario, I came unstuck today against a guy who went hardcore 2 base tempest, he just dumped all his gas into going mass tempest as soon as he saw my 2nd factory go down with his obs.
I should have realised when harassing and seeing his army he wasnt massing immortals, hadnt gone colossi or twilight tech so must be going air but I didnt read it at the time.
I was just wondering next time if I can infer he is going for a ridiculously early air transition what steps should I take, as his tempests started bombarding me waaay before I throw up my 2nd and 3rd starports.
Should thor raven (pdd for tempests or seeker for voids) be a good counter to this. just wondered whether its worth making vikings at all this early (vikings dont seem too good against protoss air until you have a lot of them) or just sticking to raven thor until I have my 4th or are maxing out and can afford to throw down the extra starports
At early economy stages like this you can double reactor viking and keep producing your ground army. You'll be able to overwhelm him trying to take a 3rd or 4th. Once he goes tempest and you are producing so many vikings you can out expand him because it's hard for tempest to cross the map in small numbers, use this to your advantage to secure more gas. You can simply make thor hellbat viking until you have enough gas to throw in ravens or ghosts. Depending on how soon he gets templar. Once he gets templar you want ghosts a.s.a.p. or a great split if he has a low number of tempests.
Thanks for the write-up. Personally I am currently opening 2 Factory aggression with Tanks and Widow Mines. I pretty much always kill the Natural. Nexus Cannon isn't even an issue, just bring a few scvs to repair the Tanks, while they shell the Nexus.
What's nice is that WM do extra 35 dmg to shields and take out Immortal Shields very quickly. Personally I like that 2 Factory sets you up for having a very robust Tank Hellion Mine army, while with 1-1-1 I often feel I'm on the lean side and very short on the essential Mech Upgrades because I'm getting the Starport + Raven + Banshees.
On February 14 2013 12:20 HTOMario wrote: Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down.
I laughed so hard, I've just started getting back into Sc2 and this is just as evil as dt/lurker at expo points. WHERE DID MY PROBE GO I IKNOW I SENT IT THERE I KNOW IT FUCK YOU IM NOT CRAZY
On February 14 2013 12:20 HTOMario wrote: Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down.
I laughed so hard, I've just started getting back into Sc2 and this is just as evil as dt/lurker at expo points. WHERE DID MY PROBE GO I IKNOW I SENT IT THERE I KNOW IT FUCK YOU IM NOT CRAZY
whats fun is having a group of hellions on standby and if he goes to clear out this one mine with his whole army (happens quite a bit) you just drive into his natural and kill all his probes there xD
On February 14 2013 12:20 HTOMario wrote: Keeping widow mines at expansions not only forces a detector there but it delays the expo and gives you the knowledge that it is going down.
I laughed so hard, I've just started getting back into Sc2 and this is just as evil as dt/lurker at expo points. WHERE DID MY PROBE GO I IKNOW I SENT IT THERE I KNOW IT FUCK YOU IM NOT CRAZY
whats fun is having a group of hellions on standby and if he goes to clear out this one mine with his whole army (happens quite a bit) you just drive into his natural and kill all his probes there xD
I have done this and I can vouch that for some reason they send most of their army every time...
On April 03 2013 07:25 avilo wrote: If your opponent goes tempests with templar, you have to play really, really well to beat it. Just remember if they start going into that that tanks become worse and worse as the game goes on and you really have to already have started to accumulate point defense drones or you will be screwed.
The other thing you can do when the opponent reaches 10+ tempests is to make pure vikings and hellbats. This only works late, late game due to the fact hellbats are 2 supply and so are vikings, so you can try to overpower that one tempest army with mass vikings and good spreading vs templar while using some vehicle blue flame hellions to snipe templar, and all the rest in hellbat mode as your army.
Otherwise, if the game goes to lategame with mech vs P you really play it the same way as every other Terran lategame - start to accumulate raven+vikings to negate tempest shots (you need 6-7 PDD in order to have an invincible army vs tempests) and then just go pure thor on the ground with some hellbats and a couple ghosts.
Mech vs P is difficult, i don't think it's optimal, and it'll only work really well on maps like daybreak and such where there are few attack paths. Well, technically mech vs P can work anywhere on anything with the rule of "if you killed 30 of their workers with banshees, hellbats, widow mines... then mech it 'will work'."
Viking, raven, ghost, few thor and hellbat, works pretty well against mass tempest, it's a micro dance just like bio vs collosai / storm. Yes late game battles are hard to micro in every situation.
Mech isn't the best build style, bio is currently stronger. However mech is weaker on some maps just like terran or zerg or protoss is weaker on some, stronger on others. I'm able to make mech work great on nearly all maps.
I'm currently sitting at 60% win loss on NA floating inbetween 40-90 GM ranking. On Eu I am 66% win loss as 1100 points master. It's hard to judge if it's viable or not since it doesn't have much experimentation between top players in HOTS. I do know however that colstc, dragon, roxkisbratok and I are all able to make it work at high gm rankings after practicing for a while. I believe goody is doing really well too. I don't think mech HOTS or bio has been fully discovered and we'll just have to see how things turn out over time.
Thanks for your feed back!
Np d00d, we need more people being ballers playing mech. The more people play it and are familiar with it, the more knowledge we gain overall. Of course that also means P/Z get more familiar with it and have better counters...which can be good so they QQ less :D
Wow thank you HTOMario for this amazing safe opening. I was having a lot of trouble in my TvP matches while playing bio, because i LOVE bio! Then i decided it was enough and i went on looking for other options, why not mech?... But the opening you showed me works very well for my bio play.
I just got top 8 masters NA, or doesn't that mean anything? :p lol gg.
On April 06 2013 20:29 Juice! wrote: What do you do against (proxy) stargate in 2-3 oracles? That just wrecked me :/
if I know it's there I geting 2-3 widow mines at my front with a turret in my mineral line, I also get 1 viking and then go for medivacs for my reactor marines. Then I starting throwing in tanks and a raven.
On April 06 2013 20:29 Juice! wrote: What do you do against (proxy) stargate in 2-3 oracles? That just wrecked me :/
If you can scout the proxy it should be a freewin, it's a huge invest for toss. If you open with gas and spend first gas on fact go mines into turrets. If you open gasless pump alot of marines and add turrets in both main and nat, don't be greedy, add as many as u need to be safe.
Mario as a general rule of thumb when should I take my natural?
I noticed in your first video you take your natural after your 1-1-1 is up. That was likely due to the scouting of a second gas, but is that always the case? Should I always delay my CC until after my factory is done?
On April 06 2013 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote: Mario as a general rule of thumb when should I take my natural?
I noticed in your first video you take your natural after your 1-1-1 is up. That was likely due to the scouting of a second gas, but is that always the case? Should I always delay my CC until after my factory is done?
I move down to my natural only when I feel it's safe to do so. I don't want to stretch myself too thin. I'd rather stay in my base another minute then risk being over run.
After watching SPL for the last two days, I was so disappointed that none of the BW pros even tried to use mech. There have been zero mech tvp in all major tournaments since HOTS. I have to come here to find some comforts Thanks again man.
Have you found out the more stable TvP composition that needs the least transitions?
On April 08 2013 11:30 larse wrote: After watching SPL for the last two days, I was so disappointed that none of the BW pros even tried to use mech. There have been zero mech tvp in all major tournaments since HOTS. I have to come here to find some comforts Thanks again man.
Have you found out the more stable TvP composition that needs the least transitions?
Actually, Taeja vs Sase on Neo Planet S(MLG Winter Championship) Taeja does the 15 gas opener and transitions into a hellbat drop after the mine drop. he was getting +1 attack for mech when Sase killed him. Sase derailed the mech train
On April 08 2013 11:30 larse wrote: After watching SPL for the last two days, I was so disappointed that none of the BW pros even tried to use mech. There have been zero mech tvp in all major tournaments since HOTS. I have to come here to find some comforts Thanks again man.
Have you found out the more stable TvP composition that needs the least transitions?
I think bio is just more figured-out than mech. Mech is still very new, and I guess players are just more comfortable going with the tried and true strats in tournaments. Three cheers to Mario, Avilo, and all the other players who are paving new ground by daring to play mech vs Protoss.
On April 08 2013 11:30 larse wrote: After watching SPL for the last two days, I was so disappointed that none of the BW pros even tried to use mech. There have been zero mech tvp in all major tournaments since HOTS. I have to come here to find some comforts Thanks again man.
Have you found out the more stable TvP composition that needs the least transitions?
I feel you there, I feel like mech could be viable just nobody is trying it out at pro level at least in korea. I know some EU terrans are doing it (and did at WCS EU qualifiers). I hope some korean terrans start doing it as tvp is boring to me when it's bio
Up until recently I have only upgraded armour for my mech since I typically go Thor/Hellbat/Ghost. Recently I have figured out that I need double upgrades in order to better fight against Carriers and Void Rays.
So if you go double upgrades for mech when is it best to start upgrading? And should you go double upgrades immediatly or should you get the first attack or armous upgrade first, and then start the double upgrades when the first upgrade finishes?
On April 08 2013 11:30 larse wrote: After watching SPL for the last two days, I was so disappointed that none of the BW pros even tried to use mech. There have been zero mech tvp in all major tournaments since HOTS. I have to come here to find some comforts Thanks again man.
Have you found out the more stable TvP composition that needs the least transitions?
I feel you there, I feel like mech could be viable just nobody is trying it out at pro level at least in korea. I know some EU terrans are doing it (and did at WCS EU qualifiers). I hope some korean terrans start doing it as tvp is boring to me when it's bio
The reasons why mech is so underused in tvp, can be found in the games between nony and HTOmario (WCS NA qualifier).
Mech IS viable when the terran can do a huge amount of damage with hellbat drops / hellion drops, but if the protoss defends well and plays it right, it's over.
On April 24 2013 21:05 MockHamill wrote: Up until recently I have only upgraded armour for my mech since I typically go Thor/Hellbat/Ghost. Recently I have figured out that I need double upgrades in order to better fight against Carriers and Void Rays.
So if you go double upgrades for mech when is it best to start upgrading? And should you go double upgrades immediatly or should you get the first attack or armous upgrade first, and then start the double upgrades when the first upgrade finishes?
What i usually choose to do is : -Both upprades with one armory (what i was doing in WoL in every TvP) : Usually when i open with some kind of fast Thor, i'll try to get 2-2 on 1 armory starting around 7 minutes, adding a second only to get air uppgrades (so around 15-20 minutes). Make sure you don't spend too much on uppgrades and can still get them early enough. -1 early (8-9) armory, 1 uppgrade, then adding a second armory to get 2/1 (or 1/2, obviously) : Allows you to get good upgrades but without killing your economy/army production by making them too early. This is my favourite way in HOTS -Double armory at the same time : the problem with that imo is that, if you made too early (and you need to start armories quite early for hellbats) your armories, you end up using too much for uppgrades, limiting your number of early factories/gas units, but if you make then too late, you'll realise going for 1 early and 1 later would have give you an as-big army as with late double armories, and you would also have earlier uppgrades until 2-2...
On April 08 2013 11:30 larse wrote: After watching SPL for the last two days, I was so disappointed that none of the BW pros even tried to use mech. There have been zero mech tvp in all major tournaments since HOTS. I have to come here to find some comforts Thanks again man.
Have you found out the more stable TvP composition that needs the least transitions?
I feel you there, I feel like mech could be viable just nobody is trying it out at pro level at least in korea. I know some EU terrans are doing it (and did at WCS EU qualifiers). I hope some korean terrans start doing it as tvp is boring to me when it's bio
The reasons why mech is so underused in tvp, can be found in the games between nony and HTOmario (WCS NA qualifier).
Mech IS viable when the terran can do a huge amount of damage with hellbat drops / hellion drops, but if the protoss defends well and plays it right, it's over.
That's not true. I made plenty of mistakes in game 2 and 3, however I think that if I tweaked some things I could have taken both games. My decision making wasn't the best.
The reason why it looked like nony abused me a little is only because nony is the superior player to me. He has years of facing against mech and I'm sure he has a pretty good memory from broodwar. I on the other hand don't have as much experience. The build order / timings for mech are also a work in progress. For a long time I thought I was the only one trying to mech and up until 2 weeks ago had no idea that there were others. My build orders could be more refined and my knowledge of how to play mech has grown a lot since i've discovered other players as well.
I, like many other terrans more and more. Believe that mech is strong and could easily become the standard playstyle. It just hasn't been tried and tested as much as bio and needs more time to be figured out.
Yes mech is stronger with drops, then again so is bio.
On April 24 2013 21:35 HTOMario wrote: I, like many other terrans more and more. Believe that mech is strong and could easily become the standard playstyle. It just hasn't been tried and tested as much as bio and needs more time to be figured out.
Big words there! I hope you are right but i highly doubt it, especially with Blizzards strong bias for mmm.
Mario, what do you think of Lucifron's Thor drop against Happy twice in a row in WCS today? Is it too all-inny/gimmicky or is it a viable opener that shits on the current TvT meta game?
Anyone else finding it impossible to go Mech in TvT?
TvZ mechplay is easy, just go mass widow mine with tank and battlehellion support. TvP mechplay is hard but doable as long as you do not let Protoss get a large air army. TvT I find it is close to impossible to play mech. Both MMM and MMM+Tanks seem to be far better since the Medivac boost means he can drop you all game long.
You have to invest in mass turrets just to be able to leave you base, it is very hard to take your third without him either killing your third or your main. If you manage to build up enough tanks and widow mines to safetly secure both your third and your main he can can already be on 5 bases.
HTOMario, do you have some similiar instruction video on how to play mech in TvT?
ty for this great thread mario. also thank you for answering my questions live streaming. definitely loking forward to more of ur rep packs or streaming
Do you incorporate Battlecruicers against late game Protoss? I have found that widow mines and ravens, while great against Void Rays, are not good vs Carriers. Widow mines often kill your own vikings due to splash when fighting interceptors, and I never have enough HSM to kill mass Carriers.
If we talk pop effeciency both Thors and widow mines are very pop in-effecient against Carriers, and Vikings just trade even. Battlecruicers actually beat both Carriers and Void Rays for pop and do ok vs Tempest if you have PDD and can EMP the HT.
Do you incorporate Battlecruicers against late game Protoss? I have found that widow mines and ravens, while great against Void Rays, are not good vs Carriers. Widow mines often kill your own vikings due to splash when fighting interceptors, and I never have enough HSM to kill mass Carriers.
If we talk pop effeciency both Thors and widow mines are very pop in-effecient against Carriers, and Vikings just trade even. Battlecruicers actually beat both Carriers and Void Rays for pop and do ok vs Tempest if you have PDD and can EMP the HT.
I think battlecruisers are ok but not in mass. They are more of a, i'll get a few of them to support my real army unit in tvp.
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