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Everyone has seen the current warhound on the "official" beta streams or has already had previous knowledge of it from betas at LANs or with the custom HOTS map.
Many of you now have probably read Falling's "Defense of Mech" (can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325) thread describing very succinctly what mech is and what it is not, and many will make the comparison that the warhound is simply a "marauder in a gundam suit" or a mech suit.
The warhound is a 1A unit right now that really adds no positional depth, skillcap, or really anything at all that "mech" needs.
This thread will be to bring the warhound issue to light, as well as to suggest a design change to the warhound that will make it a "mech" unit aka a unit that requires thought, precision, good decision making, and adds depth to the unit rather than adds another 1A unit to heart of the swarm.
The first thing I will point out is that when starcraft players think "mech" they think of the most iconic Terran brood war unit - the siege tank.
The siege tank was Terran's power unit, their core unit in Brood War. Along with the vulture and spider mines + missile turrets it created the "siege tank push" with leapfrogging tanks, requiring positioning and siege mode timing to be very important, along with spider mines on the flanks.
The reason I mention the siege tank first is because what the warhound currently does from a design perspective, regardless of it's current balance/stats, is the warhound essentially is "better" or replaces the siege tank as a unit.
The siege tank was previously nerfed in a balance patch during the "blizzard maps era" in Wings of Liberty. It used to be cost effective against protoss until after the change to tank damage as well as the change to zealot's armor type allowing it to tank 1-2 more tank shots.
The warhound is mobile, can run away, is less supply, and does about the same dps (or more) than the siege tank currently does, essentially with zero drawbacks. There is no reason to build tanks when you have such a good unit.
The problem is even in the case that the warhound's statistics/balance is changed, from a design perspective it's still that same "marauder in a gundam suit."
I am going to propose a design idea for the warhound that would make it a "mech" unit, a unit that adds more depth/difficulty to Terran rather than making Terran "easier" (as cloud put in an interview). This idea I will also try to keep in line with blizzard's past and present design ideas for the warhound's role.
Give the warhound a similar and effective long-range anti-air attack as originally conceived, but give the warhound a "siege mode" to go into this anti-air mode. Blizzard could even make this "warhound siege mode" a researchable upgrade on the tech lab, giving more avenues to balance the unit. Also make the warhound be completely immobile when in this mode, just like the siege tank. Leave it with an anti-mech type of ground attack similar to what it currently has as well, but make it it's default attack (and probably slightly weaker).
Nerf the widow mine to only affect ground units in accordance with these changes, but buff it's damage/splash so that it actually is worth making (currently it is not).
What does this do for the warhound, terran mech, and HOTS?
It does a few things. First of all, it adds depth to the unit and a distinct role. It will still have a ground attack to be a useful mech unit, but it will now be able to fill in the missing anti-air gap that mech previously had.
In order for the unit to do this, it would have to switch modes into siege mode, similar to how the siege tank/hellion currently work with their transformations. It also would become immobile meaning positioning matters when using the warhound, and decision making matters for when to siege it and when to not (just like the siege tank).
This makes it so it does not overshadow the siege tank as well.
Everyone has seen brood war games, even some SC2 games, where siege tanks have been out of position or in great positions, and it can make or break a game. Why not make the warhound a unit that performs a similar positional function in the game, but provides a different role to the mech army - anti-air.
I mentioned removing the widow mine's ability to attack air would be in-line with a design change like this because if a change like this were made the widow mine's and warhounds anti-air roles would overlap too much. The widow mine in it's current form is quite underwhelming overall, and should be looked at but that is for another thread.
Closing thoughts: I think everyone as a spectator/player wants interesting units that add depth to the game and are fun to use. Things like the widow mine, siege tank, and even the hellion in many cases all require good positional play to be useful and become cost efficient. The warhound and any mech unit should be designed with a similar goal in mind.
Make the warhound a positional unit that can go into siege mode to contribute an anti-air role to the mech army. Make it have the drawback that it is immobile in this state which promotes the user to position their unit well, and adds depth to Terran mech, instead of making it "ez 1A mode." This mode can be researchable to tweak balance on the unit.
Keep in mind that this is just a design idea that would be an example of how to make the warhound become a positional "mechy" unit. And yes, a change like proposed would call into question the role of the thor for anti-air.
Thoughts?
p.s./disclaimer:
A beta is for feedback, hopefully people will see this as beta feedback and good discussion rather than "balance whine" 
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I agree completely, utterly, and totally. This is, without a doubt, the WORST concept for a unit in the entire history of Sc2 (yes! including Infestors and Roaches and Colossi!)
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Watching Drewbie rush Warhounds to (very easily and quickly) pick off Stephano's queens was a bit disheartening. They're strong as fu
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I never thought I would actually agree with an avilo thread.
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Where does leave the Thor? Why have the Warhound when you can just use a Thor which can do both without limiting it's movement?
Not suggesting (inb4 flamers), that it's balanced or that we should keep it, just that the proposal isn't a good one, or at least, isn't a fully thought out one.
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yes colossus compared to the warhound is like reaver compared to colossus ^.^ , blizz shoul quit it asap, there is no way that unitat will fit the game
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United Kingdom12040 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:49 DKR wrote:
Where does leave the Thor? Why have the Warhound when you can just use a Thor which can do both without limiting it's movement?
Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
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On September 06 2012 08:49 DKR wrote:
Where does leave the Thor? Why have the Warhound when you can just use a Thor which can do both without limiting it's movement?
Not suggesting (inb4 flamers), that it's balanced or that we should keep it, just that the proposal isn't a good one, or at least, isn't a fully thought out one.
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable.
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On September 06 2012 08:49 DKR wrote:
Where does leave the Thor? Why have the Warhound when you can just use a Thor which can do both without limiting it's movement?
Not suggesting (inb4 flamers), that it's balanced or that we should keep it, just that the proposal isn't a good one, or at least, isn't a fully thought out one.
Yes, I would have that question too, "where does it leave the thor?" Because the change i propose may overlap with the thor's AA role as well. Since none of us directly work for blizzard, that would be up to them to handle :D
The reason I mention the design idea I came up with is in line with blizzard's concept for the warhound is because originally they indeed were having a similar ideas for the role of the warhound to be an anti-air unit, to the point they previously considered removing the thor if necessary.
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Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
Mech TvZ (if that's what we're looking at) requires defensive turrets sure, but a Meching player is going to have a mineral imbalance, so that's no bother. When you get that 2-2 Mech army, which should have around 7 Thor's, Muta doesn't seem too scary.
On September 06 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable.
Mech units should be fairly expensive, I'm not aware of how much the Warhound costs? I'm sure if it is this effective a unit then, it's price will rise before it falls.
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United Kingdom12040 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:55 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +
Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
Mech TvZ (if that's what we're looking at) requires defensive turrets sure, but a Meching player is going to have a mineral imbalance, so that's no bother. When you get that 2-2 Mech army, which should have around 7 Thor's, Muta doesn't seem too scary. Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable. Mech units should be fairly expensive, I'm not aware of how much the Warhound costs? I'm sure if it is this effective a unit then, it's price will rise before it falls.
Honestly a ridiculous number of thors will die to a high number of mutas if they're magic boxed. I'm not even kidding.
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At first glance, the wardhound does seem that way. But as always, I will wait at least a few weeks to see how things play out before reserving judgement.
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On September 06 2012 08:57 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:55 DKR wrote:
Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
Mech TvZ (if that's what we're looking at) requires defensive turrets sure, but a Meching player is going to have a mineral imbalance, so that's no bother. When you get that 2-2 Mech army, which should have around 7 Thor's, Muta doesn't seem too scary. On September 06 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable. Mech units should be fairly expensive, I'm not aware of how much the Warhound costs? I'm sure if it is this effective a unit then, it's price will rise before it falls. Honestly a ridiculous number of thors will die to a high number of mutas if they're magic boxed. I'm not even kidding.
Well if you're arguing like this then we could say that a lot of marauders will die to a high number of banelings, if you have 60 supply of them. Stopping the Zerg from reaching this stage in economy is pretty important.
I appreciate that Thor's against Magic boxed Muta's aren't great, but that's a component of their positioning; something Mech should include.
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PhD. Avilo going to work! But seriously though, yeah I was watching Ret's stream earlier and his roaches could not do anything to the mass of warhounds.
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Best unit ever.
Supreme commander-esque ftw.
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United Kingdom12040 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:59 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:57 Qikz wrote:On September 06 2012 08:55 DKR wrote:
Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
Mech TvZ (if that's what we're looking at) requires defensive turrets sure, but a Meching player is going to have a mineral imbalance, so that's no bother. When you get that 2-2 Mech army, which should have around 7 Thor's, Muta doesn't seem too scary. On September 06 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable. Mech units should be fairly expensive, I'm not aware of how much the Warhound costs? I'm sure if it is this effective a unit then, it's price will rise before it falls. Honestly a ridiculous number of thors will die to a high number of mutas if they're magic boxed. I'm not even kidding. Well if you're arguing like this then we could say that a lot of marauders will die to a high number of banelings, if you have 60 supply of them. Stopping the Zerg from reaching this stage in economy is pretty important. I appreciate that Thor's against Magic boxed Muta's aren't great, but that's a component of their positioning; something Mech should include.
It's nothing to do with the positioning of the thors. Thors anti air sucks against anything that isn't stacked. That's not a lie, it's the truth. I'm just saying that's why you need turrets as well.
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On September 06 2012 08:55 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +
Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
Mech TvZ (if that's what we're looking at) requires defensive turrets sure, but a Meching player is going to have a mineral imbalance, so that's no bother. When you get that 2-2 Mech army, which should have around 7 Thor's, Muta doesn't seem too scary. Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable. Mech units should be fairly expensive, I'm not aware of how much the Warhound costs? I'm sure if it is this effective a unit then, it's price will rise before it falls.
Thors are damn expensive in the context of mech when it comes to using them for anti air.
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Avilo you fool! The warhound is the first reasonably priced unit that lets us smack around queens early game, don't complain about it!
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I agree with avilo, but I do think terran deserve some ez mode 1a unit seeing as that is the catagory most toss and zerg units fall under.
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On September 06 2012 09:01 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:59 DKR wrote:On September 06 2012 08:57 Qikz wrote:On September 06 2012 08:55 DKR wrote:
Suprisingly enough, the thors anti air is terrible that isn't super clumped up or mutalisks. If you go mech now you really badly need turrets as well as thors (even against pure mutalisk) or you just die.
I don't mind using vikings though however as you need the air upgrades to transition into BC with mech atm anyway.
Mech TvZ (if that's what we're looking at) requires defensive turrets sure, but a Meching player is going to have a mineral imbalance, so that's no bother. When you get that 2-2 Mech army, which should have around 7 Thor's, Muta doesn't seem too scary. On September 06 2012 08:51 EtherealDeath wrote:
Because a thor is damn expensive in every way imaginable. Mech units should be fairly expensive, I'm not aware of how much the Warhound costs? I'm sure if it is this effective a unit then, it's price will rise before it falls. Honestly a ridiculous number of thors will die to a high number of mutas if they're magic boxed. I'm not even kidding. Well if you're arguing like this then we could say that a lot of marauders will die to a high number of banelings, if you have 60 supply of them. Stopping the Zerg from reaching this stage in economy is pretty important. I appreciate that Thor's against Magic boxed Muta's aren't great, but that's a component of their positioning; something Mech should include. It's nothing to do with the positioning of the thors. Thors anti air sucks against anything that isn't stacked. That's not a lie, it's the truth. I'm just saying that's why you need turrets as well.
In defence, yes you do, but it's not a situation like TvT where you bring them with you. Thor AA is proven to be extremely viable by the vast number of Korean T players who use it extensively. As I said, it's a case of dictating the play so those numbers don't appear.
When I referred to positioning I meant that the Thor's placement matters in that, if you leave a bunch of Thor's in the middle of the map and 50 muta's fly over them in a magic box, you've placed them wrong.
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EPT
