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After being on TL for a long time and just being a lurker for most the time, I think it is appropriate that I make a post on this issue.
Introduction
I am particularly interested to know what the TL community looks at in terms of caster quality and what makes a caster a good caster (or tolerable).
The reason for my interest is there has been a large volume of posts (on reddit and on TL) regarding Moletrap as a SC2 Caster. A large majority of these posts appear to "bash" or criticise" (whether destructively (eg. he should quit, he his terrible, he has grating voice, etc) or constructively (eg. he just needs better insight, needs to stop yelling etc). Personally, I like Moletrap, he has done a great job for the community and is without a doubt (one of the most) a passionate person who loves gaming and SC2. He dropped everything and went to Korea for heaven's sake.
The purpose of this post is not directed at Moletrap or any particular caster, but is to help all casters (present and aspiring) to focus on KEY issues that the community wants in a casters. For example, is it making play by play, insight in meta game, knowledge of players etc.
For obvious reasons, it is hard for a caster or anyone to know and specialise in all key issues but if a caster can prioritise and (if I can say) "please the majority of the community" then those are the issues they should focus on.
Existing Casters and their Key Issues (if any)
At the outset, I have been interested in e-sports since SC:BW and SC2 beta. So I am familiar with a lot of the "popular" casters.
The following are just my opinion of what they contribute to the esport.
List below are what I consider the respective caster to contribute to the community:
Tasteless/Artosis: Clearly both of these casters have the passion, insight into the meta game, knowledge of players, community figures and are both charismatic.
Day9: Again much like Tasteless/Artosis and in addition he produces extra and independent content.
Bitterdam: (NASL) Although these are two distinct casters, I consider them again to be much of much like Tasteless/Artosis but in the US!
Wolf: I consider Wolf and Khaldor separately for a reason. Firstly, I do not consider Wolf to be much of anything in the Community. The reason for this is firstly, he does not produce any additional content, secondly his casting is below sub par in my opinion (he has little if any knowledge of players, little if any knowledge of the current meta game, etc), and lastly, and of most importance to me, he is talks about random stuff at the most random time, which I cannot stand. I consider Wolf purely to be play by play caster. Also, I do not consider Wolf to have any passion for the game what so ever. He is always dull in every cast.
I want to note this for the record since I've wanted to say this for so long. When Wolf and Moletrap were casting together at GOM, I got the impression that Wolf never liked Moletrap and he set him up for a fall. I have this suspicion that Moletrap could have done a lot better with a better perception in the community if it wasn’t for Wolf (so many occasions where I saw slight jabs at Moletrap by Wolf, made me sad because I respected Moletrap and he didn't deserve it).
Khaldor: Again, similar to Wolf, I consider him to be a play by play caster. Again he does not have the insight that other casters have (eg. day9, artosis, etc). However, I respect Khaldor because he shows passion to esports AND produces independent content (casts other tournaments at his own time). Always a brownie point for me.
Husky/HD: I consider both Husky and HD to be in a category of their own. Both are passionate (clearly!), and both in my opinion are charismatic (although at times I fell like HD is turning into Wolf...), and are clearly play by play casters.
DJ Wheat/Total Biscuit: I put these two casters together because both are "new" to SC2 and have little if any insight into the games or the players. I will say I originally did not like either of their casters, both made clear mistakes and their voice omg!. But they grew on me why, because they love e-sport and produce a lot of content. Props to Total Biscuit for Crank.
Moletrap: I come to him last for a reason. It is clear that he does not have the insight of say Artosis or Day9, etc. But what can be said about Moletrap is he is god damn passionate about esport (go to his youtube channel and you will see games from SC:BW and SC2, in addition you see additional contents (interviews with BW progamers)). Do I like his casting? Yes. He might not be as charismatic as Day9, but when you hear him cast you just get this feeling that he loves what he does. Even if the information is wrong, that to me trumps minor mistakes (and yes they are minor, people have a tendency to make an ant hill into a mountain). That is easy to do if you are trying to "bash" or find something wrong against anyone. Conclusion, Moletrap is a passionate, play by play caster.
So what is Key to being a good caster?
Given the above, which do you consider to be important Key issues:
Poll: What is key in a caster ?Insight (meta-game) (178) 55% Charisma (78) 24% Passion (46) 14% Insight (into Players) (10) 3% Play by Play (10) 3% Additional Content (4) 1% 326 total votes Your vote: What is key in a caster ? (Vote): Passion
(Vote): Insight (meta-game)
(Vote): Insight (into Players)
(Vote): Play by Play
(Vote): Additional Content
(Vote): Charisma
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Insight and passion are the two most important factors IMO. However, insight without passion can stand on its own, while passion without insight cannot.
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Day9 is nothing like Tasteless/Artosis.
Khaldor has a lot of insight.
Kind of agree with the rest, even though I wouldn't put DJWheat and TB in one group. Sure, both have no insight, but TB can actually be entertaining.
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Giant arms and a smooth head.
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Insight and passion. Play-by-play is useful for those just getting into SC2, but the majority of people watch top tiers pros to learn something new anyways, and for that you need game knowledge.
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I think you're letting personal preference cloud and manipulate your opinion of wolf. His voice is annoying, at least it was for me for ages, but I think his casting has improved astronomically. I also think he's one of the best solo casters in the world. He knows he doesn't have to talk constantly. He uses coin phrases like "I dunno about this " and so on, and can sometimes tell stories that tangent and take a while, and although traits like this can be detrimental, he is holistically an excellent caster, he has good synergy with Khaldor, he tells somewhat amusing stories, especially anecdotes about the players, which makes me feel like I know them and is awesome.
He is quite similar to Apollo, he's a less amusing (because of the tastosis synergy) but slightly different Artosis that can function without a Tasteless, which is a big difference. Artosis is good because he has tasteless and vice versa.
Moletrap couldn't be further from this. He's always distracted, he has a pretty bland and half full knowledge of the game, and his anecdotes and personality are just plain annoying. Although there isn't a real solve, annoyingness can be really bad for a caster. It made Code A unwatchable last year.
Charisma is important for entertainment, but it just depends on your mood before watching a game, if I'm watching the semi finals of an MLG where it's Ret vs Oz or IdrA vs a korean terran or MKP vs Parting I want tastosis, and I want day9 and husky, I want screaming, and drama, and a crowd. If I'm watching up and downs or code A, I WANT khaldor and wolf. I want quiet, collected, intelligent chatter about the game with a few chuckles for me and a "woah" when something big happens.
Everyone has their strengths and they all fit somewhere. Except HD... he just doesn't ^^
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"Husky/HD"
Please, NEVER EVER put them into one category...
Husky is one of the best play by play casters around (after TB&Day9), HD is... well, not even close.
Their HDH invitational was the biggest mistake Husky ever made, now his name is forever bound to HD eventhough they are completely different.
Also, didn't we have such threads before?
Oh, and where is dApollo on your list ffs?
To add some more content to this post:
The most important factor is passion. If they are passionate about the game, they will either get genuinely excited by stuff that happens (aka TB) or spend a lot of time getting game knowledge (aka dApollo), so passion is the real foundation for every caster, everything else depends on that.
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On September 03 2012 16:43 myth_au wrote:After being on TL for a long time and just being a lurker for most the time, I think it is appropriate that I make a post on this issue. IntroductionI am particularly interested to know what the TL community looks at in terms of caster quality and what makes a caster a good caster (or tolerable). The reason for my interest is there has been a large volume of posts (on reddit and on TL) regarding Moletrap as a SC2 Caster. A large majority of these posts appear to "bash" or criticise" (whether destructively (eg. he should quit, he his terrible, he has grating voice, etc) or constructively (eg. he just needs better insight, needs to stop yelling etc). Personally, I like Moletrap, he has done a great job for the community and is without a doubt (one of the most) a passionate person who loves gaming and SC2. He dropped everything and went to Korea for heaven's sake. The purpose of this post is not directed at Moletrap or any particular caster, but is to help all casters (present and aspiring) to focus on KEY issues that the community wants in a casters. For example, is it making play by play, insight in meta game, knowledge of players etc. For obvious reasons, it is hard for a caster or anyone to know and specialise in all key issues but if a caster can prioritise and (if I can say) "please the majority of the community" then those are the issues they should focus on. Existing Casters and their Key Issues (if any)At the outset, I have been interested in e-sports since SC:BW and SC2 beta. So I am familiar with a lot of the "popular" casters. The following are just my opinion of what they contribute to the esport. List below are what I consider the respective caster to contribute to the community: Tasteless/Artosis: Clearly both of these casters have the passion, insight into the meta game, knowledge of players, community figures and are both charismatic. Day9: Again much like Tasteless/Artosis and in addition he produces extra and independent content.
Bitterdam: (NASL) Although these are two distinct casters, I consider them again to be much of much like Tasteless/Artosis but in the US! Wolf: I consider Wolf and Khaldor separately for a reason. Firstly, I do not consider Wolf to be much of anything in the Community. The reason for this is firstly, he does not produce any additional content, secondly his casting is below sub par in my opinion (he has little if any knowledge of players, little if any knowledge of the current meta game, etc), and lastly, and of most importance to me, he is talks about random stuff at the most random time, which I cannot stand. I consider Wolf purely to be play by play caster. Also, I do not consider Wolf to have any passion for the game what so ever. He is always dull in every cast. I want to note this for the record since I've wanted to say this for so long. When Wolf and Moletrap were casting together at GOM, I got the impression that Wolf never liked Moletrap and he set him up for a fall. I have this suspicion that Moletrap could have done a lot better with a better perception in the community if it wasn’t for Wolf (so many occasions where I saw slight jabs at Moletrap by Wolf, made me sad because I respected Moletrap and he didn't deserve it).
Khaldor: Again, similar to Wolf, I consider him to be a play by play caster. Again he does not have the insight that other casters have (eg. day9, artosis, etc). However, I respect Khaldor because he shows passion to esports AND produces independent content (casts other tournaments at his own time). Always a brownie point for me. Husky/HD: I consider both Husky and HD to be in a category of their own. Both are passionate (clearly!), and both in my opinion are charismatic (although at times I fell like HD is turning into Wolf...), and are clearly play by play casters. DJ Wheat/Total Biscuit: I put these two casters together because both are "new" to SC2 and have little if any insight into the games or the players. I will say I originally did not like either of their casters, both made clear mistakes and their voice omg!. But they grew on me why, because they love e-sport and produce a lot of content. Props to Total Biscuit for Crank. Moletrap: I come to him last for a reason. It is clear that he does not have the insight of say Artosis or Day9, etc. But what can be said about Moletrap is he is god damn passionate about esport (go to his youtube channel and you will see games from SC:BW and SC2, in addition you see additional contents (interviews with BW progamers)). Do I like his casting? Yes. He might not be as charismatic as Day9, but when you hear him cast you just get this feeling that he loves what he does. Even if the information is wrong, that to me trumps minor mistakes (and yes they are minor, people have a tendency to make an ant hill into a mountain). That is easy to do if you are trying to "bash" or find something wrong against anyone. Conclusion, Moletrap is a passionate, play by play caster. So what is Key to being a good caster?Given the above, which do you consider to be important Key issues: Poll: What is key in a caster ?Insight (meta-game) (178) 55% Charisma (78) 24% Passion (46) 14% Insight (into Players) (10) 3% Play by Play (10) 3% Additional Content (4) 1% 326 total votes Your vote: What is key in a caster ? (Vote): Passion
(Vote): Insight (meta-game)
(Vote): Insight (into Players)
(Vote): Play by Play
(Vote): Additional Content
(Vote): Charisma
wolf is a great caster, what the fuck are you smoking exactly? this sounds like a wolf hate thread if anything
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let me add to what themarine adds to casting, he is analysis caster for osl.
for example during of the games, terran pushed to punish a expanding protoss with a hand full of marines with a bunker. during that, themarine explained that the protoss will think terran will be expanding behind that push and the protoss will think that he will be able to expand with ease and set up for mid game (standard play). protoss went on to poke with his own stalkers and terran had marines at the tower and few marines at the natural ramp to deny scouting. at the same time themarine said the terran should hide some of his marines because what he was doing was one base 3rax.
the mind game explanation is missing along in english casts from what i can tell.
themarine isn't always right but he puts a lot of insight on what the players think based on what they see.
On September 03 2012 17:01 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 16:43 myth_au wrote:After being on TL for a long time and just being a lurker for most the time, I think it is appropriate that I make a post on this issue. IntroductionI am particularly interested to know what the TL community looks at in terms of caster quality and what makes a caster a good caster (or tolerable). The reason for my interest is there has been a large volume of posts (on reddit and on TL) regarding Moletrap as a SC2 Caster. A large majority of these posts appear to "bash" or criticise" (whether destructively (eg. he should quit, he his terrible, he has grating voice, etc) or constructively (eg. he just needs better insight, needs to stop yelling etc). Personally, I like Moletrap, he has done a great job for the community and is without a doubt (one of the most) a passionate person who loves gaming and SC2. He dropped everything and went to Korea for heaven's sake. The purpose of this post is not directed at Moletrap or any particular caster, but is to help all casters (present and aspiring) to focus on KEY issues that the community wants in a casters. For example, is it making play by play, insight in meta game, knowledge of players etc. For obvious reasons, it is hard for a caster or anyone to know and specialise in all key issues but if a caster can prioritise and (if I can say) "please the majority of the community" then those are the issues they should focus on. Existing Casters and their Key Issues (if any)At the outset, I have been interested in e-sports since SC:BW and SC2 beta. So I am familiar with a lot of the "popular" casters. The following are just my opinion of what they contribute to the esport. List below are what I consider the respective caster to contribute to the community: Tasteless/Artosis: Clearly both of these casters have the passion, insight into the meta game, knowledge of players, community figures and are both charismatic. Day9: Again much like Tasteless/Artosis and in addition he produces extra and independent content.
Bitterdam: (NASL) Although these are two distinct casters, I consider them again to be much of much like Tasteless/Artosis but in the US! Wolf: I consider Wolf and Khaldor separately for a reason. Firstly, I do not consider Wolf to be much of anything in the Community. The reason for this is firstly, he does not produce any additional content, secondly his casting is below sub par in my opinion (he has little if any knowledge of players, little if any knowledge of the current meta game, etc), and lastly, and of most importance to me, he is talks about random stuff at the most random time, which I cannot stand. I consider Wolf purely to be play by play caster. Also, I do not consider Wolf to have any passion for the game what so ever. He is always dull in every cast. I want to note this for the record since I've wanted to say this for so long. When Wolf and Moletrap were casting together at GOM, I got the impression that Wolf never liked Moletrap and he set him up for a fall. I have this suspicion that Moletrap could have done a lot better with a better perception in the community if it wasn’t for Wolf (so many occasions where I saw slight jabs at Moletrap by Wolf, made me sad because I respected Moletrap and he didn't deserve it).
Khaldor: Again, similar to Wolf, I consider him to be a play by play caster. Again he does not have the insight that other casters have (eg. day9, artosis, etc). However, I respect Khaldor because he shows passion to esports AND produces independent content (casts other tournaments at his own time). Always a brownie point for me. Husky/HD: I consider both Husky and HD to be in a category of their own. Both are passionate (clearly!), and both in my opinion are charismatic (although at times I fell like HD is turning into Wolf...), and are clearly play by play casters. DJ Wheat/Total Biscuit: I put these two casters together because both are "new" to SC2 and have little if any insight into the games or the players. I will say I originally did not like either of their casters, both made clear mistakes and their voice omg!. But they grew on me why, because they love e-sport and produce a lot of content. Props to Total Biscuit for Crank. Moletrap: I come to him last for a reason. It is clear that he does not have the insight of say Artosis or Day9, etc. But what can be said about Moletrap is he is god damn passionate about esport (go to his youtube channel and you will see games from SC:BW and SC2, in addition you see additional contents (interviews with BW progamers)). Do I like his casting? Yes. He might not be as charismatic as Day9, but when you hear him cast you just get this feeling that he loves what he does. Even if the information is wrong, that to me trumps minor mistakes (and yes they are minor, people have a tendency to make an ant hill into a mountain). That is easy to do if you are trying to "bash" or find something wrong against anyone. Conclusion, Moletrap is a passionate, play by play caster. So what is Key to being a good caster?Given the above, which do you consider to be important Key issues: Poll: What is key in a caster ?Insight (meta-game) (178) 55% Charisma (78) 24% Passion (46) 14% Insight (into Players) (10) 3% Play by Play (10) 3% Additional Content (4) 1% 326 total votes Your vote: What is key in a caster ? (Vote): Passion
(Vote): Insight (meta-game)
(Vote): Insight (into Players)
(Vote): Play by Play
(Vote): Additional Content
(Vote): Charisma
wolf is a great caster, what the fuck are you smoking exactly? this sounds like a wolf hate thread if anything
i'm not a fan of wolf also. dull and casters ending their sentences with a question is extremely annoying.
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You are using "additional content" as criteria for casting...
What?
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I'm not too sure about your rating for a lot of the casters. I would group Tasteless separate to Artosis, and I would definitely rate Wolf higher. While Day9 is fantastic for lower league players and his videos are seemingly entertaining; I haven't found them useful for a long, long time. That is, however, my opinion.
There are others that you should list - PainUser (personally dislike along with HD) and Grubby (sign me up as a fan boy  )
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Honestly, I think it's all in the voice and the way you deliver your speech. Game knowledge is something that people can learn over time so I don't really concern myself with judging a caster by it because in most cases, it's pretty competent. When it comes to any sort of public speaking, what really matters is how you speak. You can spout all the nonsensical bullshit in the world but if you have a voice and a way of speaking that captures attention, then you are a good caster. If you do a lot of "um" and make a lot of awkward statements, then you are bad and it won't matter if you have the most in depth game knowledge in the world.
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For me, it's simply to have something interesting to say about the game. However, the standards of game knowledge are quite low for English-language casters. I've recently started listening to Russian casters and it's much more enjoyable.
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You forgot Apollo  He is one of the best imo!
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Funny that you stated Wolf knows nothing of the players/current meta game but then said Tasteless does. Couldn't be more wrong.
Wolfdor ftw!
Oh and Apollo is a very professional caster as well, great research into the current trends and players and delivers it all very smoothly.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
wrong title: Instead of "what is key for casting" you should have named the thread "here TL: read my opinion on casters". Yeah you hate Wolf so what.
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Being yourself and naturally talking about the game are things some up and coming casters really struggle with. I can't count how many times I hear the same inflection trying to emulate more popular casters, or really similar nerd culture jokes that try to emulate Tastosis or Day[9]. We get it, everyone used to play Pokemon!
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I like how day 9,tastless,artosis cast.You cant be a caster without good knolege and like little stuff.Husky can be entirtaning but he lacks quite a bit of knolege.Day 9 is probably the only caster that has game knolege and can analyze perfectly well.Atrosis and tasetless are good for ingame casting.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.
Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .
Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.
When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.
p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion
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I want to start by saying that I'm a huge sports fan and a lot of my opinions come from watching copious amounts of sports broadcasts.
I think a lot has to do with the setup of the tournament... Do we have an online solo cast (what 99% of aspiring casters can do)? A two caster table (most major tournaments)? Or a caster table and analysis table/couch (the latest IEM)? Finally... who's the observer?
I love great analysis. I wish there were more shows/content about really discussing games that were played. However, I think you missed the biggest factor for me. I want to know [see] what's happening. When it comes to watching a tournament I'd rather have ONLY a quality observer and NO talking (I don't want to mute b/c I like the game sounds).
After having someone who's capable of showing the game without forgetting to follow an army or at least show that there are drops/dts/run-bys on the way to different bases I want to have someone able to give me quality play-by-play. This is also where I'd factor in the caster's ability to express themselves and communicate as part of this. + Show Spoiler +in the EU scene we often get some casts by people who are not native English speakers. Many are still very capable but it can be a factor
Next, I want insight. However, neither of the ones you mentioned. I want casters that know decision making (who's going to win the engagement). "Player A should really pull back now before over extending" or "Player Z needs to just hold a few seconds until [insert tech] is finished" etc.
Everything else is just a plus for me. I don't really think large tournaments are the place to be explaining the meta-game or build orders (unless there's some radical change / cheese going on). I also don't think extra content makes someone a good tournament caster.
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EPT
