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[Concept] Line of Sight Blocking Ability

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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CanadianSCgamer
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada64 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-17 20:01:50
June 15 2012 08:36 GMT
#1
POLL
+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: This Ability is...

Awesome (249)
 
76%

Bad (51)
 
16%

This one is bad, but perhaps another LOS manipulating ability would be better (28)
 
9%

328 total votes

Your vote: This Ability is...

(Vote): Awesome
(Vote): Bad
(Vote): This one is bad, but perhaps another LOS manipulating ability would be better


UPDATE!
Link to Post on Blizzard Forums - Please go Support the Idea (Goal is to get a Dev response)

Spell In Action! (With NEW pictures!)

+ Show Spoiler +


Thanks to a very talented Mr. Outcast01 at SC2Mapster Forums, the spell is now a Work in Progress!

DO NOT FEAR those Siege Lines any longer!

[image loading]

Smoke OUT! (Now in range of enemy tanks, but no shooting yet )

[image loading]

Smoke out again, leap frog to get even closer. Knock Knock Siege Line. (No damage taken yet, imagine if you didn't have Smoke Screen Shells)

[image loading]

Siege Line No More. *Note friendly Raven giving vision this whole time, stressing the importance of vision, whereas red didn't have any.

[image loading]

-------------------------------------------
Test Map

+ Show Spoiler +
I've made a very rudimentary map to test the idea of using LOS blocking in big battles. And it is VERY COOL. The dynamic is awesome. You never know what's lurking on the other side of the smoke. Here's the map: Smoke Screen Shell Test Map

Open map in editor, then click the Test Map button. It should load and say you've Won or it's a Tie. Ignore that, and click Return to Game. Change game speed in gameplay menu to suit your needs.

Scenario 1: In the middle of the map, you have 3 armies, A-move them to the LEFT. There is a siege line behind the smoke. This simulates blue's defender's advantage using Smoke Screen Shells.

Scenario 2: You have a group of unsieged tanks. Use them to lure the Zerg army that's to your right by attacking, then run to the left behind the smoke, leading them into a trap. You can always use your Orbitals to gain vision for yourself.

Until a more skillful mapper/coder makes a better version of the map, this will have to do. Enjoy.

-------------------------------------------
Common Questions Addressed:

+ Show Spoiler +
Thanks for all the responses, positive and negative. Allow me to address some of the most common questions or confusions:

1) "Obs, scan, flying building or air units completely negate this ability."

Yea, this ability was designed with these counters in mind. The key to being successful is to catch your opponent off guard with it. With a quiet sound effect (since it's smoke not explosive), your opponent will be forced to keep their eyes on their armies and not just macro. In addition, this ability requires air superiority and it is not equally useful in all MUs. It was mostly intended to help break Siege Lines.

2) "This is confusing and bad for spectators."

Don't underestimate the intelligence of spectators. Game Observers can always switch between the visions of two players or explain the ability. Since Smoke Grenades and Screens are existing in the real world used by real militaries, I don't see how it would be more difficult to explain than say Graviton Beam. Plus, we already by LOS blockers on maps, and people seem to get it fine.

3) "It is like Dark Swarm, Optical Flare, etc."

You are somewhat correct because these spells all manipulate vision. However, Smoke Screen Shell is unique because it only blocks lines of sight and can be used by both players depending on who has vision on either side of the smoke.

4) ***IMPORTANT: Still pictures cannot show the dynamics of this ability. You must use your imagination. The screenshots only show one instant MOMENT during the battle. In theory, the Smoke Screen Shell may negate sight for its entire duration, but in PRACTICE, that's rarely the case. It is meant to buy you time. Reduce 1 or 2 volleys of shots from incoming tanks. Sometimes that's all you need. For example, of the 15s of duration, you may actually have 5s to move or get close before your opponent realizes what is happening and scan. Or your Siege Line may get a short, but precious, 7s (enough to get 1 or 2 extra shots off) of free reign over an assaulting enemy Protoss or Zerg army before their spotting Observers or Overlords reveal your tanks that are behind the smoke. Another example, if a Zerg is crafty he'll make you think he doesn't have vision but had already placed a burrowed infestor under your army, rendering any Smoke Screens useless. Remember, just because a spell lasts a certain time, it doesn't mean that it is effective for that amount of time (e.g. Storms can be dodged, etc.) ***


I hope you will try to read the entire thread before posting because it is likely that your concern has already been addressed and covered. Perhaps someone can enlist their Galaxy Editor expertise and make this so we can see a video of it in action or have play tests to determine it's viability.

------------------------------------------
Main Thread:

For HOTS, Blizzard is experimenting with ideas to help Terrans break siege lines. Their answer right now is the Warhound's missile pack. But the ability itself is quite straight forward and not very interesting to watch. Of the many new elements of SC2, I think the most underrated one is the manipulation of unit vision. The LOS blockers on maps are interesting, but what if this concept were made into an ability?

New Siege Tank Ability - "Smoke Screen Shell"

-Basically works as a temporary LOS blocker (lasts 15-20s) *all figures are tentative
-Fired from Siege Tanks on a cool down (30-60s)
-Can be used offensively and defensively
-Works like current neutral LOS blockers on maps
-The ability itself doesn't grant you vision. You need vision to fire it at full range. You need vision to see past friendly or enemy Smoke Screens.
-The ability does NOT require research. It is automatically given to Siege Tanks in both modes and can be used in both modes, albeit with different ranges depending on modes. Sieged mode (2-13). Unsieged mode (7).

This ability FITS the lore and style of the Terran race. Terrans emphasize army positioning and movement. This ability gives the Terran army that power. Smoke Screen Shell works like modern smoke grenades, smoke artillery rounds or tank smoke dispensers. The purpose of smoke is to cover troop movement, in advance or retreat. (0:46 of video)


+ Show Spoiler +



Or




Attack:

Launch some Smoke Screen Shells ahead of your army to block vision so you can get close without taking damage. (Yes, those LOS doodads are placeholders, but they simulate the size, shape and effect of the final ability). *This is the observer's POV. Red (you) still need to gain vision in order to actually attack/shoot Blue (enemy).

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


What your enemy sees (or don't see )

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


*Also I know the pictures kind of look weird because the units aren't facing the right directions, but I'm not good at using the editor and everything is a mock up. So for now, there are arrows.

Defend:

If your enemy is attacking into your Siege Tanks, launch smoke rounds nearby to block their vision. Like the placement of forcefields, you can use multiple smoke screens to make a larger shape of wall, aligned or staggered. Unlike forcefields, units can walk through. Now look at how much ground the enemy has to cover before gaining vision of your tanks. They will take terrible terrible damage from the few extra shots you'll be able to get off. *Observer's POV, Tanks still need some kind of vision. A scan would be best in this case to see the Protoss units.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


This is the POV of the advancing Protoss Army. One cannot attack what one cannot see. Protoss would need to be creative. Send in an observer, keep it from getting sniped. Or run a unit in front of the main group.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


In Retreat

It's a TRAP! Scenario: Use retreating Siege Tanks to bait Zerg army into a trap. Launch Smoke Screen to conceal your retreat and prevent zerg from seeing the Terran trap, much like burrowed Banelings, except you are hiding an entire army. (Green indicates retreat and Red indicates attack). *Note the different angles and shapes you can form from shooting smoke from different angles.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


What the Zerg would see. Smart players could use this as a double fake, feigning a trap so that their tanks will survive.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


-----------------

I made that in editor, but I'm not a coder. If you guys think this is something interesting enough to be explored, then maybe someone who is more experienced with the coder can make this ability and prove this concept.

Here are some tentative "prototype" test attributes:

Range: As far as Siege Tanks can fire
Duration: 10-15s (Enough time for tanks to Unsiege after using Smoke Screen, and attack with main army)
Cooldown: 30-60s (Short enough to be reused for dynamic movement, but not enough to be spammy at the same time)

Approximate size of the ability compared to other units.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


- Works like any other LOS blocker. The enemy can gain vision with all the regular ways to gain vision on map, such as scans, obs, air units, etc.

-Ability can be used in both Sieged and Unsieged mode, but range will be reduced to the range of Unsieged Tank in Unsieged mode (like real-world tanks)

-The line of smoke is always perpendicular (90 degrees) to the direction of firing. Multiple tanks can fire rounds in combination to form larger Smoke Screens of different shapes.

- Launches like a missile, flies like a projectile, meaning the Shell doesn't get to the target area instantaneously (but still fairly fast, like EMP from Ghosts). This gives both you and your opponent enough time to either regroup or react.

- Makes a distinctive, but soft, sound effect so that you know the ability is being used even if you or your opponent is not watching the army. This allows time for players to react.

--------

Please give your constructive feedback. Perhaps help me think of some gameplay implications this will create (I will add to OP).

Gameplay/Misc. Implications:
- Frees Warhound to do an Anti-Air role again. Thor can be removed.
- Unique Ability that is interesting and dynamic to watch.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 08:41:00
June 15 2012 08:39 GMT
#2
These threads aren't really allowed as far as I know, but for what it's worth, I really think such an ability would work wonders in making the tank more dynamic, I like it.

Smoke screen just feels very Terran-y
I think esports is pretty nice.
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
June 15 2012 08:40 GMT
#3
I think this is an interesting skill, perhaps could open up a lot of potential for cool things. Can Terran just magically see past the smoke screen though? Or will they need some sort of extra vision.

Only thing I'm worried about is it becoming an ability along the lines of fungal / forcefields which are impossible to micro against once they are put down
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
xza
Profile Joined November 2010
Singapore1600 Posts
June 15 2012 08:40 GMT
#4
looks good! what about air spotters though, wouldnt it counter this?
"What a terrible final. This is why BO3s are horrible. Seriously MKP vs Moon in a final and having it BO3 is like having Mila Kunis naked in your bed and all she'll give you is a HJ with her PJs on. Pffffffffffffffftt." -greatZERG
Soyuz
Profile Joined July 2011
Hong Kong996 Posts
June 15 2012 08:41 GMT
#5
If an air unit was right behind where the enemy smoke shell was fired, will it also lose vision like a ground unit would if it were right behind the smoke as well?
CanadianSCgamer
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada64 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 08:46:40
June 15 2012 08:43 GMT
#6
On June 15 2012 17:39 Saechiis wrote:
These threads aren't really allowed as far as I know, but for what it's worth, I really think such an ability would work wonders in making the tank more dynamic, I like it.

Smoke screen just feels very Terran-y


How come these threads aren't allowed? This is a discussion about SC2 and it is in SC2 General.

EDIT,

Yes it works just like any other LOS. Air units will reveal through the Fog of War. But the trick is to have your own vikings or anti air to chase away the spotters.

This is meant to be a Temporary ability. You launch and go! Don't sit around. If there's a spotter, you kill that spotter, launch the Screen, then attack or in some special cases, retreat.

This is also meant to catch your opponent off guard. If they are not watching their army, your army will be on top of theirs before they know what happened. But if they are paying attention, then they can scan you or reveal you in another way, and then the battle will progress normally.
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
June 15 2012 08:44 GMT
#7
I think it's a great premise and you did a good job explaining it.
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
June 15 2012 08:44 GMT
#8
It's a cool idea, not sure how balanced it'd turn out to be though
Soyuz
Profile Joined July 2011
Hong Kong996 Posts
June 15 2012 08:44 GMT
#9
On June 15 2012 17:40 Superiorwolf wrote:
I think this is an interesting skill, perhaps could open up a lot of potential for cool things. Can Terran just magically see past the smoke screen though? Or will they need some sort of extra vision.

Only thing I'm worried about is it becoming an ability along the lines of fungal / forcefields which are impossible to micro against once they are put down


I think this is good because you can actually counter it pretty easily. Against fungals you can't do anything, against forcefields you need massive units, but against this I'm sure it's easy to counter as long as you're looking at your army (high apm!), say moving a few units forward or moving your air units forward, or scanning, etc.

I'm sure it can make for a lot of other cool things, such as firing smoke shells just to bait scans, or feigning attacks while dropping etc.
Soyuz
Profile Joined July 2011
Hong Kong996 Posts
June 15 2012 08:45 GMT
#10
On June 15 2012 17:43 CanadianSCgamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2012 17:39 Saechiis wrote:
These threads aren't really allowed as far as I know, but for what it's worth, I really think such an ability would work wonders in making the tank more dynamic, I like it.

Smoke screen just feels very Terran-y


How come these threads aren't allowed? This is a discussion about SC2 and it is in SC2 General.


Maybe because HotS isn't released yet and we have no idea how the final game will turn out to be? but this is a new idea and not analysis on a Blizzard Idea (TM), so this should pass. Decent idea, at that.
Kich
Profile Joined April 2011
United States339 Posts
June 15 2012 08:51 GMT
#11
I voted awesome, I enjoyed the presentation of this. Though I don't believe that specific ability should be used, I wasn't going to go so far as to say that the idea was bad. I'm not sure if the tank is the proper unit, since you turn what should essentially be a less micro intensive unit into a more micro intensive unit and it may just allow the tank to do too much; it already has absurd single target dps and massive range / burst / aoe damage.

I feel like the Reaper would be good for this, forcing troop diversity and holding up barracks build times / research in compensation for a rather powerful ability for bio (mech doesn't really care about this I don't think).
[]Phase[]
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium927 Posts
June 15 2012 08:54 GMT
#12
I wouldn't call it 'awesome' just yet, but it's alot better than some of the other blizzard ideas out there.

Hmph, I'd support this.
Gamegene
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States8308 Posts
June 15 2012 08:54 GMT
#13
I would love this idea, just because vision is really half baked in SC2. The concept is only tangible from early high ground engagements and tower control. Anything that can force more strategic choices with less information is welcome in my book!
Throw on your favorite jacket and you're good to roll. Stroll through the trees and let your miseries go.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
June 15 2012 08:55 GMT
#14
15s would be too long since you have to take into account that usually you have quite a lot of tanks, but otherwise i think it could be an interesting ability as long as it researchable in the tech lab so it can't lead to new all-ins and make it uncastable on ramps (think: Protoss defending at the ramp against a tank all-in and can't see when the marines are running up, so no way to forcefield properly)
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
June 15 2012 08:55 GMT
#15
The problem is simply that terran rarely wants sight blockers. It'd really only be useful when you're attacking into another terrans tank line, which I don't really think needs a change(furthermore the terran should at that stage just be able to scan to counter the vision loss). For vP and vZ, the only time you want vision blockers is rine vs stalker early-earlymidgame(at a time where tanks obv wont be out). It'd be interesting admittedly against certain toss allins, but at the same time, those it'd work well against, a sieged tank already makes very weak.
Woizit
Profile Joined June 2011
801 Posts
June 15 2012 08:58 GMT
#16
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.

1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.

2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.

It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in.
bLecK
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia625 Posts
June 15 2012 09:07 GMT
#17
On June 15 2012 17:58 Woizit wrote:
Interesting idea, but I see quickly see 2 big problems with it.

1. It's the same functionality as a short-term cloak.

2. It's difficult to represent it visually to the spectator. It either obscures the view of the entire screen, or it affecting the vision of only 1 side can make it confusing to a viewer.

It'll require quite some tweaking, but because of especially point 2, I see it difficult to be put in.

@no.1

Not necessarily, you can regain sight with an air unit.
Yoo Ara | Lee Min Jung /Suzy/Taeyeon/Eunji/ NaRae/ Alice
Roth
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany165 Posts
June 15 2012 09:10 GMT
#18
Somehow I like your idea. On the other hand it seems to me like too similar to the Blinding Cloud Ability but since I am not happy how Blinding Cloud does I think this will be a great addition to the game.
Day[9] - "That stupid ice cream truck representing happiness!"
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-15 09:11:54
June 15 2012 09:11 GMT
#19
I for one understand their need to break away some stale scenarios in TvT. We're all like "TvT is awesome, so positional and cool, tactical blahblahblah". Then you watch foreign TvT, European TvT to be precise. That's about the most boring thing I've ever seen, oh boy what would I give to see a Happy vs Goody Bo11. Korean TvT on the other hand is a whole different matchup.

Regardless, cool idea anyway ;D
Lavit2099
Profile Joined November 2011
United States390 Posts
June 15 2012 09:12 GMT
#20
So basically rework the Viper spell, add a dash of Oracle mass cloak-field and give it to Terran in a bigger, better way. Can't say I'm really all that impressed with the idea.
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