EPTAnd. Here. We. Go.
Bang Bang Mafia 2
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United States2294 Posts
And. Here. We. Go. | ||
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Millers should claim, and we should force them to shoot. Later we can sort out any false claims etc... but it gets us started in the right direction. I agree there could be more than 1 miller so the self shooting is a bad thing and will have us ending up with 2 wasted lynches. I am worried that our day 1 shot is going to happen within 5 minutes of daytime as people try to make a point to get themselves remembered for shooting X as soon as the game started for teh LOLz. Lets step away from this, while anyone can kill I think we need to at least start off with in-thread voting before the shot is fired, and if we can have the millers doing it until they have all shot so much the better. If we can get the miller claims into the open (assuming there are some) and then have them do our designated shooting for us for the first cycle or two we not only gain some information on them, but also on the discussion about who they should be shooting. | ||
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On June 11 2012 22:54 Toadesstern wrote: I just don't know if we can really figure out millers easily with a possible GF that can shoot and maybe a framer around. Remeber what the framer was like from PYP for example: Yeah that was a special framer but neither do we know if we have a tracker nor do we know if the hosts considered something like that as well if they chose to give us a tracker (especially if it's tracker INSTEAD of DT) Not sure if Millers should claim at all. That's going to be confusion and I'm not sure we're able to figure stuff out easily yet, maybe even wasting a couple of cycles to figure this stuff out when we could just play normal. With DTs being not sane 100% there won't be a situation where the DT claimes d2 and says "sup guys I found red in XXX" because he can't be sure of his sanity. I'd say with the possibility of framers, Millers are best to shut up and just play normal. If a DT happens to check them, whatever. That's not a tell for the DT at all until he sees multiple people flip and the chances for a check on a miller are quite low to begin with. Yeah that's speculation but the whole point of making millers claim is flawed if there are framers and we just change the one problem with another one that is about equally likely to give us some issues. No, we don't need to sort them out yet we can worry about that later but they do need to claim now. I am not worried about getting them confirmed as town, I want as much information in towns hands as possible to work with and then we go from there. Allow me to quote are illustrious host Ace from the recent Policy Lynch thread 2.) In a setup with self-aware Millers, anyone that is caught by a Detective and claims Miller should be policy lynched. A self-aware Miller is Town, and on Day 1 should claim Miller immediately. They might still be lynched but this gives the Town a much easier path days ahead. With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase, as there is no need whatsoever to keep it hidden from town. We need to get the millers outed anyway so out investigative roles don't waste time on them yet. Claiming miller doesn't make them confirmed but it at least removes that option from the mafia's playbooks when they get detected and they try and keep us from lynching them. Also the moment we lynch the GF any remaining ones who have fired are pretty much confirmed anyway (though nearly anyone who had fired would be at that point as well). | ||
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 I didn't see it in the OP, is there a post requirement? I assume not for days, since they could end so quickly, but for nights it would be nice. Otherwise we may need to policy shoot them since they won't get removed from the game for not not posting at all. Last thing, I say we vote for 48 hour days, I can't see this ever helping the Mafia, only town. We can end it early by shooting sooner, which will probably occur most of the time but if we get to LYLO (SHLO??) we may be best served by having more time to review the game before making that final shot. | ||
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On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote: exactly. what I'm saying with my post before that. We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out (easy = not normal analysis, but instead something that works right off the bat). So what I meant and is that a miller claim afterwards should not be a reason to consider someone a townie. If you make someone claim he obviously got pressure and therefore you considered lynching / shooting him prior to the claim. A miller claim should not be treated as alignment indicating either way, which results in shooting them if you thought he's mafia prior to the claim. Exactly, Millers can claim now (what I prefer as it gives us information now), or they can not claim (as Toad prefers as the confusion may stifle real discussion). Later in the game someone we are suspicious of is checked by a cop and shows red, he then claims miller. He still gets shot as the time for claiming has past and it gives mafia an out. On June 12 2012 01:10 marvellosity wrote: Nice plan, the 3 scum get 3 free town deaths with this. Scum (except GF) can't shoot so no they don't. However I don't know about the plan of having them shoot whoever they think is most suspicious. If they are town and are in that spot they have most likely been playing sub-optimally (the reason they are in this spot to begin with) so having them make the call seems like it could wind up with us losing more obvious townies. Maybe they shoot the second most suspicious person. Its like a duel where the 2 most suspicious people have to shoot it out and if one is mafia 3/4ths of the time he doesn't have a gun to shoot back with. | ||
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also why did What i was saying was | ||
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What i was saying was basically Millers can claim or not claim now but once the game progresses their is no use in claiming miller as at that point they should be shot. | ||
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On June 12 2012 02:49 FreelanceSatan wrote: ok that makes much more sense if your not talking about millers claiming now and trying to disrupt the plan. I still think you should try to avoid dealing with absolutes such as "if a miller claims later shoot him" we cant be 100% sure one way or the other so it would be best to take it on a case by case basis. But your right.. if a miller is claiming later into the game just to save his ass it should definitely be noted that it looks significantly worse than if he claimed now and we should act accordingly. You are correct about dealing in absolutes, after reading chaoser's post I realized that it makes much more sense for us to designate who does the shooting anyway. | ||
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On June 12 2012 05:47 FreelanceSatan wrote: wait....so there is no lynch?? wtf.. how is town gonna stand a chance if we cant use pressure votes to scum hunt.. This is precisely why we have to vote on who gets to shoot and who they shoot at. If town shoots Willy Nilly we are doomed before we start. This is precisely the reason that even if we have ROL do the shooting, we still need to vote on who he shoots and not have him decide. Our votes on who gets shot are what we need to analyze and evaluate scum and townies. | ||
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On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle. If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return. I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping. It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. So much right about this post, I agree completely. Combating disorganized townies is top priority and our best chance at victory. Once day rolls around we can start deciding who to shoot and by whom. | ||
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On June 12 2012 11:52 talismania wrote: Those that have played with him before, what's RoL's personality? If he's a risk.nuke type then I think that explains his behavior surrounding his claim. If he's a qatol type, then I'd say he's a traitor role or something just trying to stir the pot. I can't see a fake miller claim as GF when GF could just as easily and more safely claim VT. I was looking back at previous games of his and at least in the one I was reviewing, he didn't come across as a Qatol type, as I was wondering on his play style as well. I personally don't find his claim any more suspicious than a lot of other activity going on. Lets wait till day phase and see if their are any other Miller claims once, we are sure they have all had ample time we can reevaluate his claim based on how many other people claim. But if he is the only one claiming miller by the end of the day that will be incredibly strong evidence in his favor. If not then we can start addressing the veracity of their respective claims. | ||
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On June 12 2012 13:21 gonzaw wrote: Derp days last 24 hours (thought they lasted 48). Anyways people, be sure to chime in and post your thoughts on RoL and marv's "case" against me please. Dirkzor I want your opinion the most. There is a vote for 48 hours, I don't know if it has past yet but all townies should have voted to extend it. Did the Extension pass? Regardless thanks for not shooting now, if it is a 24 hour day then we should wait a minimum of 18 hours if possible to give everyone time to discus the target (and shooter) I am headed to bed now so please, please, everyone don't let it be night time when I get back tomorrow morning! There are still a lot of people that need to start posting, it was night phase so they are given some leniency for that but now is the time to start disusing, also any other Millers should claim now if you were waiting for day. | ||
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On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote: If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person. If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow. I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle. If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return. I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping. It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. | ||
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risk.nuke Kenpachi payl gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot. ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him. Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on? | ||
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On June 12 2012 22:09 Dirkzor wrote: Well as I also wrote in the Policy lynching thread I'm all for setting up rules like these that enforces a townlike behavior. So no arguement there. But MZ does have a point that whoever shoots are most likely a townie. So we shouldn't just kill them... A point that was no way clear from Kita's post. In other news: I think MrZentor might be scum. Go look at his filter. He very clearly have been following the thread. But he haven't really put any thought in what he have posted. He seems to jut be posting in order to increase his filter. He also seemed to get very defence for no appearrant reason during his only real response in the thread: So any reads MrZentor? Anything? Thanks for bringing this up, I forgot about him. He really needs to start posting content, and he does seem very scummy. I will try and get some time to review some of his other games to see if he is always so useless to town. | ||
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On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote: His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler + What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not? Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there). I think they did it like this: 1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not 2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public): Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list. That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun). This is the beauty from the plan: Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues.... ...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game. Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day. Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made). So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group. Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK. Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use: 1)Their medic saves on the gunners 2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners 1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them 2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later. That was the way it would work in the 1st game. Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it. Also, something I found along the way. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. Regarding the plan of guns and not guns claiming, don't you think even the mafia without guns will claim they have guns (maybe 1 won't) so we just end up shooting all our blues for a few days? We don't know how many blues town has so we won't even know if mafia is the group. I don't see how that plan helps anything it isn't like the goons are going to admit they have no guns. We end up have some people claiming to have guns, who don't have guns, but how do we decide who it is? We are back to square 1 but now they know which townies have guns and who doesn't so they can shoot acordingly. We just give them even more information while we are just as confused as before. Unless I am missing something this is a very bad plan, plus we should worry less about plans and more about about posts. I agree Chaoser trying to push the shot so fast was very very bad. Chaoser, why did you want to stifle so much discussion? | ||
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Wow that's an incredibly bold claim. Are you that good at picking out scum, because I got a townie vibe so it is quite shocking for me to see someone so certain. Maybe I am being too sure of things I shouldn't be. I had him pegged as stupid Towney for the giant plan that failed due to not even reading the OP. I like to think that ROL is actually the miller so his defense of him seems like something mafia wouldn't due (sticking their neck out for someone else), especially after they apparently tried to hit last night (Missing KP and no one else claiming to have been hit). I haven't seen you give strong arguments for his guilt though(maybe I missed it)... are you swayed by Marv's reasoning or do you have your own? | ||
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If gonzaw won't fire lets let chaoser kill him. | ||
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I concur with this statement. | ||
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