EPTI haven't been modkilled yet, so I'm pretty confident that I will not be modkilled this game
Wheel of Fortune Mini Mafia
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I haven't been modkilled yet, so I'm pretty confident that I will not be modkilled this game | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Purplehaze I'm looking at you. It feels like you made this an issue just to make an issue of it. >.> | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
No but actually, I think we've got plenty of time for the last two people to post before we start worrying about policy lynching one of them. I'm also trying to fully understand the mason plan in all it's configurations. The first thing I see is that if there are no real masons, then a pair of scum fake claiming would be really powerful. The way we get around that is by having a dt check on one of the mason claimers, so the plan overall basically just turns a normal dt check into a double dt check. This would be helpful to town. However, there could also be real masons and no dt. In that case, the scum could fake claim dt; when we lynch one of the masons and they come up town, we don't learn much because there could be a framer, and he would have almost certainly chosen one of the masons. Alternatively, scum could fake claim dt and confirm the masons, then start confirming the other scum (with some real townies in the mix as well.) If scum have a framer, then it seems like their move would be to target one of the masons for a kill and the other for a frame up. That way, they certainly either get a kill or on one of the masons, or else the town won't get a dt check on the mason pair. (If the mason targeted for the kill is jailed, then they survive but can't be dt checked. Therefore the dt either gets no result, or gets a framed result.) Preview edit: actually, when I reread the OP, it looks like jailing someone may not block dt checks ion them, going by the in-flavor description. Does "Gregory House's safety net" (jailkeeper power) also block actions targeted on the subject other than "being booted off the show" (getting killed)? I expect that the answer to this will be "yes" since that's how I think jail keeper normally works. If the answer is "no" I will post an update. Anyway, my current feeling is that the masons should not claim super early. Since there's no doctors, the mafia could go for either the fake dt claim response or the kill/frame combo, significantly reducing the advantage we get. There's one other thing I was thinking of. Since we don't know whether or not there are masons in the game, what's to stop two townies from fakeclaiming masons? One VT would claim mason and choose their best townread, claiming them as the other mason. The other person would go along with it, assuming they also think the first one is town. In theory, this could give us the benefit of having masons even in a scenario where we don't have masons. However, if a townie chose a scum, it would be really bad for town, so this sort of bets the whole game on one read. I'm not comfortable doing that. Additionally, this would let the town act as though those two are confirmed town as long ad they're both alive, but as soon as one is killed and flips VT, the other one isn't confirmed anymore and it goes back to reads. This could be helpful, but I don't think the risk is worth the reward so I don't think anyone should do it. HOWEVER: I also think there's a foolproof way for the masons to breadcrumb each other without putting each other at risk. Everyone should post a string of characters. For everyone who's not a mason, those characters wil be random. However the masons will share a one-time pad, and will encrypt each other's names, repeating through the string of characters. Then when one of the masons dies, the other one can reveal the one time pad which converts their string into the other mason's name and vice versa. Clearly a one time pad can be chosen to convert any string into any other string, but the odds that this will work both ways without having been constructed are astronomically small. I suggest we use at least sixteen characters. Thus, if my mason partner was to encrypt my name, then the decripted string would be STRONGANDBIGSTRO. Since scum won't have the one time pad, there's no way for them to figure out who the masons are as long as everyone posts a string. I see no way this could go against town, but I won't post such a string yet so that people can tell me why I'm wrong, if I am. Finally, I have a question for MrZentor. Ace is in this game; why did you change your trolling method from last game and not call for people to lynch him again? Another preview edit: ace posted the point about the SK KP potentially messing up the town; this does seem like it decreases the odds of masons surviving to help the town, which makes me even more hesitant to support a quick claim. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
You randomly generate a string of characters, which you both have. This is your one-time pad. You each take your decrypted ("plaintext") string, and add each letter to the letter in the same position in the one time pad. This gives your encrypted string. (by adding letters I mean incrementing by the position in the alphabet. You can convert each letter to a number, 1-26, and add the numbers, going back to 1 when you would go past 26.) The messages can then be decrypted by anyone who knows the one time pad, by subtracting each letter of the pad from the corresponding letter of the message. However, without the pad the messages cannot be decrypted. Therefore you post the encrypted messages before anyone dies, and then when the other mason dies you reveal the pad, which changes their string into your name and your string into their name. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 03:11 Snarfs wrote: Couple of things to comment on in the beginning. First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) I get the feeling you didn't really read my posts. Sorry they were so long. I had a lot of scenarios to work through on the "early mason claim" question, and I People have previously been talking about how the masons should "leave clues" in their posts to who their partner is, but that their clues would have to be careful so as not to alert the mafia. I'm saying that I've got a foolproof way for the surviving mason to confirm themselves if the first mason gets killed, but that it requires cooperation. It's not at all the same as "anyone hiding something in their posts." It only really covers up the masons if everyone posts. Scum would naturally be against a scheme like this, in my opinion. Since I can't see any way it can possibly hurt town, I think we should do it, even if the benefit ends up being small. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Also I'm not actually sorry they were so long, fuck that. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 04:24 Forumite wrote: strongandbig, your posts are long, not so long that I didn´t read them, but you could put some effort into putting everything on a subject together in one paragraf, instead of having lone lines here and there. Why do you make a situation to help identify scum, then tell scum how to blend in? Since we´re still talking Masons, I don´t think there´s a rush in claiming. If they claim then scum have more time to pick them off. As long as they claim well before getting lynched then there´s no reason not to wait a few days. To emphasize that, if you are a mason about to be lynched, then don´t wait with claiming. I don´t want to ever see a voteswitch the last 10 minutes, or even the last 30 minutes. If you are too late then we might as well lynch you to confirm your partner. I usually operate under the assumption that unless something's a deliberate and crafty trap, scum will figure out what the scummy reaction is as long as they take some time to discuss things over in their QT and think through the ramifications. This was not a deliberate trap, so I think that only hasty scum reactions are likely to get caught by it. I'm also very softly pointing a bit of suspicion at snarfs, and to a lesser extent Ace. I also usually think even unnecessary paragraph breaks make for easier reading, but I could be wrong about that one. On April 23 2012 05:58 SamuelLJackson wrote: If I understood correctly what strongandbig said he is pretty much against masons claiming at all. He doesn't want masons to claim unless the other counterpart of their mason role is dead, therefore giving us less advantages but also less risks because it's only one confirmed townie but it's just impossible for the 2nd guy to be mafia when the first one already flipped town AND mason. If we are willing to work on the assumption that neither scum nor VTs will ever claim masons, because it's too risky for scum and too stupid for VTs, then the best move for the masons is probably indeed to claim day 2. FWIW, I definitely think masons shouldn't claim day1 for sure, but I'm pretty much okay with a day2 claim if we think the scum won't take the bigass gamble on claiming mason and linking themselves together. It's only when we start to think that's possible that the situation gets very much more complicated. I guess we could just rely on the "policy lynch a mason if both of them survive more than two nights" or whatever it is you guys are saying, as a counter to the potential of scum fake claiming masons. However two days of behaving as if two scum are confirmed townies seems like a pretty tough hit for the town to take. Anyway, if there are masons in the game, then there's still at least a 1/10 chance they die night 1, and there could also be an SK. airncdkurhtigyeb | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:58 SamuelLJackson wrote: That being said I really don't think there's masons in here because of what I said earlier and would rather talk about scumreads instead. No responses about what I said about VE? I skimmed the first few pages of VE's last several games. This seems like by far the least he's posted in the first 24 hours of any game recently, as scum or as town or as SK. The one thing I did notice was that it seems like he tries to lead when he's town but not by pushing lynch targets, but rather by telling everyone else why their lynch targets are wrong; he's not doing that this game, but he's not doing anything yet either. (at least compared to normal) | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 07:36 marvellosity wrote: Did you not see whichever game it was where he singlehandedly led the lynch on Cyber Cheese? No. I read DFM2 (town), LI (scum), and Bastard (SK). I'll take a look at some others if I have time, but there's a lot of players here to get background on. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 09:09 Snarfs wrote: I'd like to see a few of VE's scum reads before voting for him. There hasn't been a ton of content and I'm not convinced that giving his town reads is an indicator that he is scum. strongandbig, I actually did read your full post. It just seemed like a lot of setup speculation coming from the same guy who said this: What was it about the setup speculation that was more important than discussing the hydra signing their posts and why should we not consider you "suspicious" for the same reasons that you thought prplhz was suspicious? Hmm. I guess partly because in the case of the hydra it seems kind of obvious and irrelevant, whereas in the case of the masons thing it was actually a question that didn't have an obvious answer (to me at least) and which could require a certain amount of coordination amongst the town. You're right though; it was kind of a distraction as well. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 10:25 Ace wrote: You guys are boring me :/ Compared to the insults and arrogance you were throwing around in SS mafia, you've been pretty tame this game. Maybe you are boring us. Anyone else getting a weird feeling from ace? People who've played more than one game with him? | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Still I would lol so hard if wbg had to modkill ace after the /in for this game. @ace, I was wrong about your stance in ss mafia re mechanics. I lumped you and BC together as "douchy vet" and got your stances on that game confused. My bad. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 23 2012 22:58 Bluelightz wrote: ....... Its not the Kenpachi method if said person doesn't do this literally EVERY game. I believe this because VE does this very rarely. Also, heads up, USELESS! POST! Not true. I was caught by BC using the Kenpachi method in SS mafia. I'm starting to really wonder what's up with VE, it seems very out of character for it to take him this long to respond to this set of accusations, whether he's town or scum. I actually feel like we should not lynch him for lurking, but we maybe should wait and see what his explanation is. He has to post his vote sometime in the next six hours or risk a modkill anyway. Since we appear to be seriously considering lynching Zentor, let me put in my two cents on him as well. His play this game doesn't look exactly like his play in his previous games as either scum or town, but it looks much closer to his town play (he started SS mafia with a bunch of retarded trolling as well) than to his scum play (where he seems to have been much more lurkey). He's either making a deliberate decision to change his scum play, or he's still town and was trolling retardedly. I'm not sure which, but I'm leaning towards the latter. When it comes to actual suspects, I'd like to point to Snarfs. He's done a few things so far that make me suspicious. First, we have + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 09:12 Snarfs wrote: I agree with all this also. That said, I agree with the hydra in that it's time to stop talking about the masons and to start hunting scum. In this post, he says that we should be hunting scum, but in none of his later posts does he actually do any scum hunting. Looks like trying to gain town cred for getting us focused when he's actually not adding anything to the discussion. Also note that this comment at this point was not really trying to change the arc of the thread; at the point he made it we were already moving on from the masons discussion. The two posts we have from him after that are the following: + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 09:21 Snarfs wrote: Speaking of which, I'd like to hear some from Ace, whose posts have almost entirely been about Masons at this point. Ace, what do you think of VE has a lynch candidate? If you had to pick a second candidate, who would it be? I think it would be valuable to have two candidates to consider going into the last 18 or so hours before the lynch. + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 15:31 Snarfs wrote: These are excellent points, sbrubbles. Thank you for pointing them out, my suspicion of Radfield has also risen because of this and I look forward to his response. Neither of these actually lays out an opinion on who is playing scummy and who we should actually vote for. Again more behaving like he's moving discussion along without actually contributing. Especially with his "suspiciousness of radfield" post, this looks a lot like trying to bandwagon onto a case without actually contributing anything to said case. Finally, here's his first major post (and the only post in which he actually expresses opinions): + Show Spoiler + On April 23 2012 03:11 Snarfs wrote: Couple of things to comment on in the beginning. First of all, strongandbig's posts are big and mostly useless. Specifically, this encrypted message stuff that takes up a large portion of his posts. Anyone can hide something in their post, we don't need you padding your filter and clogging the thread with that sort of stuff. Last time you started a game like that (SS Mafia) you were scum. Are you scum this game too? MrZentor, you're abrasiveness and dismissal of people's questions, while not necessarily (or likely) mafia behaviour doesn't really help the town. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would appreciate a more respectful player than the one who needs to call everyone "illiterate, boring, dull, stupid, or thick" just to make a point. I'd say it actually lessens the strength of your cases when you resort to ad hominem attacks. As for the other things that have been talked about: -Hydra should sign their posts -Masons should claim if they feel like it will benefit town -Town reads are not necessarily only negative (though admittedly they are not as important as scum reads) Let's look at both of the points he makes here. First, his response to my mason encryption plan is nonsensical. It's a plan that would, I admit, only help town in maybe 1% of situations, but could literally not possibly hurt the town. It died, I believe, mostly because Ace was dismissive and seems to be leading the whole "mason theory" discussion; that's not actually out of character to me, Ace seems pretty dismissive in general of plans that aren't his. However, the first few reactions to the plan are still interesting. Snarfs's seems like what I would expect from a scum reaction to a complex or convoluted townie plan; dismissal without actually engaging the details, as well as accusations being thrown around. Additionally, if you look at my post, the real filler wasn't the encrypted message stuff; it was me trying to work through the scenarios that could come out of a mason claim. I was responding to the question Ace asked, when he asked for reactions to his mason plan. Now, look at his arguments on MrZentor. Note that he calls him out for being weird and not townie without actually accusing him of being scum or anti-town. He doesn't take a position on whether or not Zentor is scum or town at all, just saying he could be anti-town. Then there's the little comment blurb. None of the things he says there are actually meaningful, but seem like they might be an attempt to jump in on a discussion that already happened without actually adding anything new to the topic. Snarfs, J'Accuse! ##vote: Snarfs | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
Oh well. Waiting to see what he posts and if that changes my opinion. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On April 24 2012 03:49 Snarfs wrote: Only about 3 hours to lynch and noone else here? What do you guys think about a marvellosity lynch? strongandbig and prplhz, what makes me a better lynch than him? Of the other players who have votes on them already, I'd probably prefer a Radfield over a Zentor, mainly based on the difference in effort between I'm a Cop You Idiot and this game. When I look at your filters, comparing yours before I accused you and his as it stands, I see him lurking hardcore, and I see you lurking hardcore but putting in an effort not to look like you're lurking. I actually find that far more suspicious, since it seems much more in line with scum behavior to try and fit in rather than just to not do shit. Your attack on marvellosity again seems to fall into that category for me. You're not actually accusing him of being scum; you're just saying what we all know, that he hasn't actually contributed to the thread yet. Your posts since I posted my case have been more on the side of contributing, I guess; at least, the stuff about marvellosity and radfield is getting into the issues. However, with marvellosity you're essentially proposing we do a lurker lynch, and the radfield stuff is kinda helpful but really short. All in all, I'm not yet convinced that your posts during the first 40 hours of this game were doing anything other than trying to look contributory. I still think you're a better lynch than either marvellosity or sbrubbles. Regarding the lynch: options overall: I think that sbrubbles is probably a worse lynch than either marvellosity or snarfs. He only made three posts, but he still manages to have more substance in his filter than either of the other two. If it comes down to a lurker lynch, sbrubbles is a worse choice than marvellosity imo. I don't think we can call a snarfs lynch a lurker lynch, but I still think he's pretty scummy ATM. In general, I think that a lurker lynch is only a good idea if (A) the lurker is both scummy and lurky at the same time, (B) there's little to no prospect that the lurker will contribute to the town in the future, or (C) if there's no one you think is genuinely scummy after day one. I think we have enough information to go on that we can lynch someone for looking scummy rather than just looking lurky. For me to move my vote over to marvellosity or sbrubbles, I would have to hear someone explain why they're scummy rather than just lurky. So far all I've got on them is "man they're not posting much." I also want to hear MrZentor tell us who he thinks has been acting scummy. As I said above, his retarded trolling could either be his town MO or a scum tactic. However, in the previous game I played with him, he got serious relatively quickly. This game, the fact that his vote is still on himself three hours before the deadline bugs me. Personally, I was leaning against him being a good lynch, but that sort of hangs on him deciding to contribute something serious to the game. PRE-EDIT: I see radfield and sbrubbles both posted while I was typing this up. (I'm typing this on a desktop so I can actually check before I post in another tab, instead of posting on my iphone like I usually do.) Sbrubbles is even less lurky now that he's posted again. Still think he's not a good lynch. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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