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[D]ZvT Infestor vs Medivac: Optimizing Energy Use

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-18 08:26:58
March 17 2012 02:55 GMT
#1
Long-winded Introduction

Hello everyone. I've posted here today because I'd like to get feedback on a few different methods of drop defense when going ling/infestor. Currently a popular terran answer to infestors is "drop everywhere". Naturally, when this behaviour starts before even brood lords are out, the zerg plays pretty passively - making a bit of static defense and spreading out the lings and infestors between their bases (usually 3-4 locations). A lot of pros handle this sort of defense differently though, and a lot of times their responses aren't consistant nor are they really efficient. ZvT win rates have been sub-50% at the top tier for a long time, and if ling/infestor is to be the standard ZvT, it amazes me that nobody has really found the "optimal" way to handle this. Even (Z)Destiny and (Z)CatZ, arguably the pioneers of the style in NA, are very inconsistent when handling medivacs.

While it's easy to stop a drop with only 2 infestors, you start bottoming out of energy pretty quickly - And it takes more brainpower/APM/multitasking to stop the drops than it does to execute them, so even if the drop does no damage at all the Terran generally uses the distraction to expand or position their army. In fact, a lot of times the Terran doesn't even watch or micro the drop, any damage it deals is purely bonus on top of taking map control with their main tank/marine army. In the event that you catch a medivac alone in the middle of the map, It can be tough to know how much energy to use to kill it without being wasteful.

For all intents and purposes, what actually comes out of the dropship doesn't matter to us - anything that is dropped we don't have to use infestors to kill, and in some situations we can trap the medivac in airspace so it can't drop at all. The goal is to consistantly kill the medivac in the most time and cost efficient manner, so that we can maintain map awareness, continue macroing and still have enough infestor energy left for large engagements.

If we can find the best way to do this, it also enhances both Ultralisk and Brood Lord builds. Also if we're 100% confident in our solution to drops, we are able to multitask better while we defend. We're going to go ahead and assume we see the drop coming ahead of time, every time, So that we can react and position our defensive units as well as run some lings back to deal with the enemy ground units.

I'll be discussing energy efficiency, positioning, spell choice and supplementry units. I'll give my evaluation on the costs, supply, the risks and the amount of mental focus each method requires, and at the end there will be a poll for you to vote on what you think is best. Don't hesitate to give feedback or criticism either, I welcome it! Do be warned however, I will be going pretty in depth and listing a lot of possibilities, so there will be a lot of theorycraft to read and consider. Hopefully the format I've chosen doesn't make your eyes bleed.



Numbers
First, a few things we need to define before we start the analysis.

Relevant Medivac stats: 150HP, 1 base armor. "armored" subtype

Damage of Fungal Growth vs Medivac: 40 (over 4 seconds)
Corruptor Attack: 14dmg/1.9sec (6.8dps, 8.2dps w/ corruption)
Queen Attack: 8 dmg/1sec (7dps)
Infested Terran Attack: 8dmg/0.86sec (8.1dps)
Spore Crawler Attack: 15dmg/0.86sec (16.2dps)
* DPS factoring in 1 medivac armor, assuming no ranged attack or air attack upgrades



Method #1: 4 Chain Fungals
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
>that feel when the terran leaves behind a gift for you *glop*

This method is going to be our benchmark. This is probably the least efficent method vs a single medivac - It requires at least 2 infestors, a lot of energy and requires your attention every 4 seconds for 16 seconds. It's fairly simple - It takes 4 fungal growth to kill a Medivac. You can even clip a little bit, since medivacs only have 150hp. However this method is also the safest - You could say 2 infestors is the "hard counter" to a medivac drop. And sometimes, all you've got is infestors and nothing else. If you can catch more than 1 medivac in the initial fungal though, this method is the best bar none. However, double or triple drops in a single spot aren't that common vs infestor play for this very reason. Our goal is to find more efficient methods than this for single or well-spread medivacs.

Summary: 4+ supply, 300 energy, 16 seconds of multitasking.
Pros: Potential to kill infinite number of medivacs if stacked. Virtually guaranteed kill after first fungal.
Cons: Highest cost, highest supply, highest tax on multitasking



Method #2: Fungals with Queen support
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
>Queen's air attack is made out of shark teeth or something

Another pretty common method - slightly more risk for less energy cost. The risk here is that you might lose your queen, or you might delay/desynchronize your larva injects. The reward, however, is 7dps, or an additional 28 damage during each fungal growth cycle. This cuts the energy cost, and multitasking cost, to shut down the drop by a staggering 50%. Assuming the queen starts attacking when the first fungal hits, the medivac will have 14HP remaining when the second fungal ends - And you'd have to have terrible luck or positioning not to get the final shots off with the Queen's impressive 7 range. The supply cost is technically the same, however the queen would have been staying home anyways. Not every expansion will have a queen available, but for defending our core bases this method seems pretty good - we only need to leave 1 infestor behind provided it has enough energy to fungal growth twice. A good tactic is to leave the infestor burrowed, auto-following the queen, so if you are caught off guard the infestor stays hidden and safe.

Summary: 4(2) supply, 150 energy, ~8 seconds of multitasking.
Pros: Cost efficient, makes use of supply normally tied up at home anyway
Cons: Minor Macro disruptions, risk losing queen



Method #3: Fungals with Corruptor support
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
>Okay, so I couldn't actually find a picture of 1 infestor+1corruptor vs 1 medivac. Close enough!

While methods 1 and 2 will keep us safe before our hive/spire timing, At some point we're gonna have corruptors. While corruptors are sort of bad at everything, they do at least fly faster than medivacs so even though they're not the greatest unit they do have some tactical value against drops. With corruption, their DPS is nearly the same as a Queen's, and corruption enhances the damage of Fungal Growth as well. If corruption is on cooldown though, its a little worse than the queen solution. Within 2 fungal growths a corruptor only adds about 54 damage, leaving the medivac with 16 HP (which still will die in 1 extra corruptor attack). However with corruption, the medivac will die before the 2nd fungal expires. This is more likely to be used in the midfield or at a frontier expansion than at home, as leaving a corruptor behind for defense doesn't seem too practical - except perhaps if you were going Ultralisks and not brood lords but still bought a couple corruptors for air control. Of course it's worth noting, chances are you will have more than a single corruptor - The stats listed below assume only 1, but if you have several corruptors (likely) then you can probably kill the medivac with only 1 fungal, or even 0.

Summary: 4 supply, 150 energy, ~8 seconds of multitasking.
Pros: Grants air vision, can chase into airspace, cost efficient
Cons: Corruptors doing anything but turning into broodlords immediately



Method #4: Fungals with Infested Terrans
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
>Wasted energy, Wasted potential

So, method #1 is primarily used if you only have infestors in position and nothing else. However, you can defend purely with infestors using less energy than the 4-chain fungals. By dropping infested terrans you can save some energy, but how many is the correct amount? Each infested terran adds the same amount of DPS that a queen would (Slightly more actually). They take 5 seconds to hatch though, so even if you cast them as your first fungal hits, they don't contribute until the medivac is mobile again. But they last 30 seconds, so its okay to pre-emptively launch one. Since we know a queen + 2 fungals will take out a medivac in time, 1 infested terran is enough assuming we hatch it ahead of time - This seems to be the best solution to kill a medivac with pure infestor. In fact, a single full energy infestor should be all we need assuming we micro perfectly, and the infested terran begins attacking when our first fungal growth lands. The drawback is that we need to place an infested terran egg 5-10 seconds before the drop is in range, so while its more energy efficient than method #1, it still taxes our multitasking about the same amount. Still a decent mid-field solution.

Summary: 2 supply, 175 energy, ~13seconds of multitasking.
Pros: Cost/Supply efficient, Makes you look gosu
Cons: Micro intensive, Only good against single medivac drops, Tactic is countered by killing/avoiding the IT



Method #5a: Well positioned spore crawler + Fungal
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
>Dropship Hero (noun): A player who queues up more drops than they can properly manage with their multitasking, hoping that you can't multitask either.

I was watching (Z)IdrA's stream the other day, and he's finally started to go infestors instead of Mutalisks. I watched intently, because I hoped perhaps he would have a fresh take on the strategy. I was not disappointed. Idra suggested something that should seem obvious - Spore crawlers are pretty good against drops! If we consult the stats, we find that spore crawlers actually deal an IMPRESSIVE 16.2 dps against medivacs, that's twice the dps of a queen for half the mineral cost and no supply. Assuming you can land a fungal growth the moment a medivac starts being hit by the spore, The medivac will have around 50hp when the first fungal growth expires - Another fungal will definitely finish it but its a bit overkill. The trick is, a lot of times the medivac will take a few spore hits before you cast your fungal. If you are very lucky, sometimes you'll kill it only using 75 energy.

Summary: 2 supply, 150 energy, 4 seconds of multitasking
Pros: Very low cost and multitasking requirement
Cons: Requires terran to blindly walk into static defense (you'd be surprised how often it will happen though)

Method #5b: Poorly positioned spore + fungal

Fun fact, did you know a spore crawler takes 6 seconds to root? This means that you can actually move a spore underneath a medivac while it is approaching or snared. While obviously not optimal, the fact that Zerg static defense isn't actually static should be used more often. It's hard to math out exactly how much damage will be dealt because it really depends on how prepared you are. Assuming you have 5 seconds ahead of time to react (which we assumed earlier with Method #4), you can still probably kill the medivac within 2 fungals.

Summary: basically just a worse version of 5a, but feels cool if you pull it off



Method #6: Neural Parasite
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
>Sometimes referred to as the "Manner Neural". Built a CC, SCVS, barracks and ghosts that game, too. Manner Neural.

This only works on an empty Medivac, but it's also a guaranteed kill for 100 energy as long as you have pretty much anything nearby to attack air. One cool thing is that it lets you check for drop decoys - occasionally terrans will just send an empty medivac to try to make you waste energy. If you can neural, it's empty. That said, you can also just neural after the cargo is unloaded, use the medivac in combination with whatever else to kill the units it dropped while suiciding it into a nearby queen or spore crawler. Although neural parasite only has a range of 7 to cast, Once controlled a unit will not free itself unless it moves more than 12 range away from the infestor. This method is actually one of my favorites for midfield - It feels really good to heal brood lords with medivacs. Neural Parasite is highly underrated since the range nerf.

It's not quite as satisfying as the manner MULE, but it gets the point across.

Summary: 2 supply, 100 energy, Almost no multitasking with nearby anti-air
Pros: Single infestor, Extremely low energy cost, MAKES YOU LOOK FUCKING GOSU
Cons: Requires research, Requires additional anti-air to finish the job, Infestor has to take a risky position



Conclusion and Closing statements:
Whew! That was a lot of reading, wasn't it? But, it was worth it. By looking at the various ways you can attack a medivac with Infestors, as well as the various situations where you will have units nearby to support, we can see there are a lot of ways to save infestor energy if we have tactics planned ahead of time instead of "Winging it". I think one of the worst things to do is to PANIC and spam a random number of infested terrans, it's very easy to go overboard and be left with a bunch of infested marines standing around doing nothing for over half their duration - which is followed up by not having enough energy to solve all your problems in the next engagement.

Personally, I think method #2 is the safest and most reliable for drop defense, But I'm not really sure what the best option is for the midfield, I guess it really depends what you have available. Although I'm not sure where the inflection point is for how many medivacs have to be stacked up before it is worth going with method #1.. It might be better to use 1 IT and 3 fungals if it is only 2 medivacs, or maybe multiple injured ones. 3 or more at full HP though, and I'd reckon it's worth the 300 energy. I would love to hear feedback on this area of vagueness.

Am I wrong about anything? Do I fail at math? is there a better way to kill a medivac with infestors using even LESS energy? Let us all know here.

I hope I made you laugh, and I also hope that the nitty-gritty details help YOU to defend drops more efficiently while going infestors. I know doing the work and writing it all down has helped me. Now go out there and fling some boogers!


POLLS: Which methods do you prefer?
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Best way to kill Medivac drops

Method #2 (8)
 
50%

Method #5 (6)
 
38%

Method #4 (2)
 
13%

Method #1 (0)
 
0%

Method #3 (0)
 
0%

Method #6 (0)
 
0%

16 total votes

Your vote: Best way to kill Medivac drops

(Vote): Method #1
(Vote): Method #2
(Vote): Method #3
(Vote): Method #4
(Vote): Method #5
(Vote): Method #6




Poll: Best way to kill Medivacs Midfield

Method #3 (4)
 
44%

Method #4 (3)
 
33%

Method #6 (2)
 
22%

Method #1 (0)
 
0%

Method #2 (0)
 
0%

Method #5 (0)
 
0%

9 total votes

Your vote: Best way to kill Medivacs Midfield

(Vote): Method #1
(Vote): Method #2
(Vote): Method #3
(Vote): Method #4
(Vote): Method #5
(Vote): Method #6





Credit for the base images for method 3 and method 5 go to destiny's and idra's streams, respectively. All other images from my own personal replays, expertly photoshopped in MSPaint.

edit: i accidentally a word here and there
lhr0909
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States562 Posts
March 17 2012 04:28 GMT
#2
I like this thread a lot, especially the emphasis on the spore usage. The new tournament/ladder maps are actually good for putting spores on the edge of your bases to prevent drops from happening because they don't have a flying space at the back of the base anymore (denying muta usage), so static defense is going to help immensely in my honest opinion, people need to start doing that. At the same time, spine crawlers can buy you a lot of time dealing with the drops too. I think if a player chooses to go with ling/infestor and tries to take a lot of bases, he/she is spreading him/herself very thin, and in that situation spine crawlers will be a good option just like super late game when you have BLs. It is how Stephano plays ZvP now (spine, drone infestor midgame before BLs), and I think we can do almost the same thing in ZvT as well.
No Pain No Gain
Oboeman
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3980 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 07:14:44
March 17 2012 07:13 GMT
#3
haha I've never considered neuraling a medivac after it's unloaded. I've only ever manner neuraled in big fights to heal broodlords when the game is long over.

I feel like some combination of queens and spores + fungal is the best way. I like to put spores in the most obvious drop spots, so when terran queues up multiple drops without looking, they are likely to fly over a spore, and even if he catches it and pulls away, the medivac has taken damage and is easier to kill later. It's not worth it though to build spores everywhere to guarantee that you can kill it. Unless the guy is going mass marine medivac with no tanks, in which case I know drops are the only way he really does damage, so I spread creep to the edge of my bases and put up turret rings.

I like the idea of throwing down the pre-emptive infested terran in a position where if he avoids it, he flies into a spore or closer to your queen or something.
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
March 17 2012 23:05 GMT
#4
Not much feedback, heh. Guess my solutions are perfect and my math infallible! I had someone IRL ask why I didn't include Hydralisk tactics... facepalm.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
March 17 2012 23:08 GMT
#5
I played a few games today trying #5 instead of #2 with drops in my base and I'm pleasantly surprised. Spores are cheap and do a lot of damage to medivacs. I'm liking it.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
theorybiscuit
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada117 Posts
March 18 2012 01:41 GMT
#6
Hydras feel pretty damn useless in ZvT, imo. I like the way you did it, because in our scenario, we only have units that we'd normally have (infestors, IT's, spores, queens, etc). Hydras get WRECKED by stimmed marines, so I'd suggest against them. Mutas are starting to feel worse and worse the higher I get in ranking, so I'll probably end up using the spore+fungal defense as well.
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. ~Jef Mallett
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
March 18 2012 03:51 GMT
#7
On March 18 2012 10:41 theorybiscuit wrote:
Hydras feel pretty damn useless in ZvT, imo.


of course, lol. i laughed in the face of the person who suggested it to me, they get out DPS'd by spore crawlers anyhow
TheGreenMachine
Profile Joined March 2010
United States730 Posts
March 18 2012 04:44 GMT
#8
I will definitely incorporate spore+fungal technique! Been having trouble vs drops as of recently so this will help.

Also I suggest the OP try some infested terran+fungal combinations for example:

1. 2 infested terrans, wait 2 seconds, fungal, fungal. Is medivac dead after 2 fungals?
2. 3 infested terrans, wait X seconds, as eggs pop fungal medivac, is medivac dead after 1 fungal?
3. What about 2 medivacs in fungal range of each other? 2 infested terrans and 2 fungals = dead if you target fire correctly? Do you have to target fire? What about 3 infested terrans 2 fungals no target fire?

Few specific common scenarios would be cool! :D
Don't forget to get everyone you know to play HOTS so this game we love called Starcraft will live on. Every little bit helps. ^^
Hossinaut
Profile Joined June 2011
United States453 Posts
March 18 2012 04:48 GMT
#9
I just thought about this. What if you make a "turret ring" with spores around your base like Terrans do to stop mutas?

I've started creeping my base more than I normally would recently, and its been really nice for the queens, but what has also been noteworthy has been the vision advantages. If you add spores, I feel like the spores can either dissuade the drops from happening or they can weaken the medivac for a queen to finish off. Keep ~10 lings in the area or 2-3 spines and you'll be fine.

How does this fit an alternate concept?
I feel like the available minerals with going ling/infestor could be spent in a worthwhile manner this way.


Hydras are shitty unless you force a tech path that precludes splash damage. This concept, however is only really applicable in ZvP in my understanding of the game. They have use in limited quantity in ZvZ to provide extra DPS once you have your roach/infestor army.
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
March 18 2012 05:51 GMT
#10
My preferance =)
Against single medivac/viking: 1 single infested terran + neural parasite definitely the easiest and efficient. However, i almost never upgrade it ever since the neural got nerfed.
Against more than 4: just change fungal
Against anything less: 2-3 infested terrans with fungals.

Regarding drop defence, i almost never spam spines now. Recently, the newer maps have little air space for dropships to maneuver around. Spore rings actually force those damn terrans to multi-task properly instead of queue dropping. Infestors + spores combo is still rather taxing on muli-tasking. All you need to do is to spore up + leave a small grp of lings (with 2 banelings if you really want to be safe) and go auto-pilot mode. Upgraded lings tear through unhealed marines like nothing if they manage to drop some out. This is not only an easy & reliable way, it's also more food efficient and most likely more cost efficient even if you included costs of spores (you need to leave a larger grp of lings or alot more spines in the past).

Go zergs i recommend all of you to do it. I can guess in the far far future when every zergs begin to do this, terrans will convert to hellions drops instead (unload and retreat dropship immediately), then the meta-game shall shift yet again lol.
Hossinaut
Profile Joined June 2011
United States453 Posts
March 18 2012 06:25 GMT
#11
Hellion drops are good, but I don't feel like they have the utility, as they cannot actually shoot up. Shooting up is a big deal- especially when mutas are still being made in the MU. I don't know if its ever going to be viable to just not EVER go mutas in ZvT, but I think its more often than not going to be bad.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25560 Posts
March 18 2012 07:53 GMT
#12
This is a well-written comprehensive article for taking out medivacs in the air using infestors and other units. I also found the little bits of humor included to add to the overall readability and actually make this quite entertaining as well as useful. I particularly like method 5b.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
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