• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 16:55
CET 22:55
KST 06:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win1Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)35
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft 2 not at the Esports World Cup 2026 Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey!
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) OSC Season 13 World Championship $70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Potential Map Candidates BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Which foreign pros are considered the best? Gypsy to Korea
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Understand The Significa…
leoparker22
How Esports Advertising Shap…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1684 users

The Deepest Team in Proleague

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3616 Posts
February 22 2012 19:03 GMT
#1
As of today, seventy-two players have played at least one game in Proleague. Their successes and failures range all the way from KT Rolster's Flash, with thirteen wins in thirteen games, to Samsung KHAN's Juni, who was brought on to play one game and lost so badly even Coach January hasn't sent him out again.

While not purporting to represent authentically how well or badly a player is playing, I did fiddle around until I found a basic calculation to sort unequal records. It's got weaknesses: a loss with no offsetting wins simply isn't counted, so Juni and Grape (0-4) end up with the same goose-egg (then again, Grape's better than Juni). But at the top I think it does a decent job sorting out players, at least by actual wins and losses if not skill. The top 18:

1. (T)Flash (KT), 13.00 (13-0)
2. (T)Fantasy (SKT), 9.31 (11-2)
3. (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey (Stars), 8.64 (11-3)
4. (P)Stork (KHAN), 7.56 (11-5)
5. (Z)Jaedong (T8), 6.67 (10-5)
6. (P)Bisu (SKT), 5.88 (10-7)
7. (P)Stats (KT), 5.79 (9-5)
8. (T)BaBy (T8), 5.33 (8-4)
9. (P)BeSt (SKT), 5.06 (9-7)
10. (T)Last (STX), 4.92 (8-5)
11. (T)Leta (CJ), 4.90 (7-3)
12. (T)TurN (KHAN), 4.17 (5-1)
12. (P)Dear (STX), 4. 17 (5-1)
14. (Z)EffOrt (CJ), 4.08 (7-5)
14. (P)JangBi (KHAN), 4.08 (7-5)
16. (P)Brave (KHAN), 4.00 (6-3)
16. (Z)Calm (STX), 4.00 (6-3)
18. (Z)Crazy-Hydra (KT), 3.57 (5-2)

I realize 18 is a sort of odd number. It's (neatly) 25% of the 72 I mentioned up at the top of the post, but I attach no real importance to that curiosity. The real point is that everyone below CH is either short on wins or winning percentage to keep up. A few games, and some of the bottom of this list and the top of the rest could trade places. As may be.

The important point to this topic is noting who's at the top, however they got there. Breaking it down by team:

Air Force ACE: 0 ((P)Kal ranks #t19 with a 6-5 record.)
Woongjin Stars: 1 (#3 (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey. Stars' other stars are clustered in the 20-25 area.)
CJ Entus 2 (#11 (T)Leta, #14 (Z)EffOrt. Other Entusmen are within shouting distance: (Z)Hydra (#t19) and (P)Movie (#t26).)
Team 8 2 (#5 (Z)Jaedong, #8 (T)BaBy. (P)Jaehoon is #23. The others...)
STX SouL 3 (#10 (T)Last, #13 (P)Dear, #17 (Z)Calm.)
KT Rolster 3 (#1 (T)Flash, #7 (P)Stats, #18 (Z)Crazy-Hydra. (P)Wooki is #24.)
SK Telecom t1 3 (#2 (T)Fantasy, #6 (P)Bisu, #9 (P)BeSt. SKT's 4th best, (Z)n.Die_soO, doesn't show up until #t30.)
Samsung KHAN 4 (#4 (P)Stork, #12 (T)TurN, #t14 (P)JangBi, #t16 (P)Brave. (T)Reality is tied at 26th with (P)Movie.)

That Samsung KHAN is the deepest team in Proleague should come as no surprise. Last year's campaign featured somewhere between two and four impressive rookies, depending on your impressions of TurN, Grape, Brave, and Reality. With an extra year of playing time, and smart additions of Shine and RorO to finally bolster their Zerg line, KHAN should have been among the favorites to take it all - as they have amply demonstrated by now by vaulting to the top of the league, hammering previous leaders KT Rolster twice in two weeks.

Of those not quite at that level, KT Rolster and SK Telecom T1 follow them closely in depth and in the standings. In fact, while the dreaded three-headed dragon of SKT is well-known and maybe even over-rated, KT's success deserves a notice.

Compare KT to Woongjin. If you asked the average Brood War fan - certainly before the season, but maybe even now - which was the deeper team, you would get about 70% saying Woongjin, and the number would be higher except KT has a lot of fans. But in reality, so far KT's the one putting up solid results across the board - Crazy-Hydra's 5-2 would be a nice addition to Woongjin's record if Stars had kept him - and Woongjin is, essentially, barely hanging on behind an all-star performance from their newest ace, Neo.G_Soulkey.

The ace match may have gone, but I'm inclined to think that it's not a coincidence the top four teams right now are the four teams with the four best players in the game, by record: Flash, fantasy, Soulkey, and Stork.

Of course, what you do with your good players also matters: for instance, STX's initially apparent depth is belied by their placement - all at the bottom of the good end - and the utter lack of anything behind those three. Bogus is now 5-8 on the year; hyvaa is somehow STX's 5th, and is 4-6.

I said at the beginning my calculation doesn't sort out losing players if all they do is lose: however, by comparing the number for the whole team to the numbers put up by each player, we can see, team by team, which one's doing the best with what they have:

[image loading]


Flash puts KT way out in front, but continued play with poor results from Mind, HoeJJa, and Action is hurting them. Of course, the Proleague season is a marathon, and none of those three are scrubs, and KT *does* need a fifth player sometimes. So long-term it's not a bad thing. But the idea that Flash is being let down by his teammates persists because it is still a real thing. It's just that now it's the tail end of the order that's weak, not the #3 spot (or #2 if Lux was off doing sinister things that week).

We should also be developing the idea that Calm (or maybe Last?) simply doesn't have a team behind him. STX's results compared to its best players are actually worse than KT's, which is depressing: STX ought to be in contention, but just can't get there. One wonders what KHAN's or SKT's coaches could do with this group.

On the other end of the spectrum, Woongjin and CJ - two teams with assumed star power but mediocre results - are actually showing almost as well as they could be. In Woongjin's case, this is because they have nobody else to play - Team Eight shows the same pattern. In CJ's case, it seems to be more that all of their players are identical pretty good automatons, with better or worse luck as may be.

(It's worth nothing that even though I've talked up the differences, they may not be that significant: the worst team by this comparison (STX) still is playing at 82% of their players' raw value; the best (Woongjin) only has 92%. Does that 10% matter?

Also worth noting: I'm tracking games only, here, so good or bad luck with 3-2 matches shifts teams *coughkhancough* in the standings while that doesn't necessarily match the overall game records.)
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
slappy
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1271 Posts
February 22 2012 19:21 GMT
#2
very nice analysis, thanks ^_^
jaedong imba
bearbuddy
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3442 Posts
February 22 2012 19:39 GMT
#3
I said that KT has the deeper team at the beginning of the season and I have a Woongjin tag? O.o? I think the notion that KT is shallow came from anti-fans who basically recycled the whole lolKTFlash idea.
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
February 22 2012 19:45 GMT
#4
zOmGdz liek plz sp0ilar diZ plXz

Honeztly, I have too much I want to zay about diz...

User was temp banned for this post.
▲ ▲ ▲
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9782 Posts
February 22 2012 19:57 GMT
#5
I think we should gimp the statistics by only looking at the top 10 because that's a neat number and not at all because it'd make SKT look like the powerhouse it should be.
boomer hands
jlim
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Spain943 Posts
February 22 2012 20:35 GMT
#6
i think we all knew khan was the deepest team without any analysis at all

that being said, cool analysis, m8

i always enjoy your reports
phyren
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1067 Posts
February 22 2012 21:11 GMT
#7
Very interesting stats. I think it would be worth applying these methods to some older seasons. See if your analysis really does show a difference in the gap between player performance and team performance with an ace match or without. Also, it would be good to have this with a larger data set.

I always wondered, and you briefly mention it, if there is a sort of cut off on "useful" player skill. There is the sense that having good players improves your team, but realistically, a team with a few stars and lots of scrubs will win a few matches while a team with several average players has a decent chance on losing every match in a close fashion. STX has a pretty reasonable line up but does poorly in overall score; perhaps see if the standard deviation of the player "skill" has any correlation with the team standing. Intuitively, it seems that the teams with a nice sized std dev will be the ones like KT. On the other hand, a huge std. dev. could be a team like woongjin while a small std. dev. could be stx. Both of these teams may use their players effectively and still fail either because of the failure of most players to play up to the standards of the ace or the failure of all players to win much despite all being reasonably skilled.
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
February 22 2012 21:21 GMT
#8
Woohoo, KHAN!
Nice analysis. I know the results have to rank the players in a particular order... but I honest think every team is "deep" enough in the Bo5 format (yes, even ACE) to take a game away from another team in legitimate fashion. Bo7, and things change. We'll have to wait until the playoffs to see how these teams fair in Bo7, I guess.
[TLMS] REBOOT
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2304 Posts
February 22 2012 22:54 GMT
#9
too bad Jaedong is fighting alone for team 8 in the top 10.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
February 22 2012 22:56 GMT
#10
I agree Khan is probably the deepest team, but technically it should be CJ if you look at the lineups. They just botch their picks so much and everybody on there is slumping.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
SkimGuy
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada709 Posts
February 22 2012 23:43 GMT
#11
On February 23 2012 07:54 XenOsky- wrote:
too bad Jaedong is fighting alone for team 8 in the top 10.

Baby?
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10280 Posts
February 22 2012 23:54 GMT
#12
KT!!!

On paper, CJ is actually the deepest team, followed by Khan and SKT. However, because for some reason CJ's players are beginning to have slumps...
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
February 23 2012 00:00 GMT
#13
"Deepness" is a hard thing to asses. The issue with this method is that if a team has some good players, then we don't get to see much of the others. Maybe skyhigh, bbyong, miso, and snow are just as good as effort or hydra, but they just never get a chance to start. That would make CJ the deepest by far. I think the bast way is to look at OSL/MSL qualifiers would paint a better picture, but that has problems too.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
iSometric
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
2221 Posts
February 23 2012 00:05 GMT
#14
SKT/Cj has the deepest team but their poor stats hasn't shone it imo.
strava.com/athletes/zhaodynasty
SkimGuy
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada709 Posts
February 23 2012 00:06 GMT
#15
Guys, call it depth instead of "deepness" xd
Deepness just sounds weird
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
February 23 2012 00:14 GMT
#16
Nice analysis!

I hope Samsung can keep it together. Their dismantling by CJ last week was depressing -_-

I had a strange dream last night that Flash lost a game...I had to check TLPD to make sure lol.
Hello
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2304 Posts
February 23 2012 00:30 GMT
#17
On February 23 2012 08:43 SkimGuy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2012 07:54 XenOsky- wrote:
too bad Jaedong is fighting alone for team 8 in the top 10.

Baby?



ahhh u're right... thanks for the correction.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
Skwid1g
Profile Joined April 2011
United States953 Posts
February 23 2012 00:36 GMT
#18
On February 23 2012 09:00 hacklebeast wrote:
"Deepness" is a hard thing to asses. The issue with this method is that if a team has some good players, then we don't get to see much of the others. Maybe skyhigh, bbyong, miso, and snow are just as good as effort or hydra, but they just never get a chance to start. That would make CJ the deepest by far. I think the bast way is to look at OSL/MSL qualifiers would paint a better picture, but that has problems too.


Not to mention that judging only by their performance this PL means that a small bad streak (even 2-3 games) can influence the rankings a lot. Still really interesting to see though, hoping for Zero to actually start winning games sometime in the future >_>.
NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
February 23 2012 01:07 GMT
#19
CJ doing way worse than I thought they would be before this year ;_;
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
February 23 2012 01:28 GMT
#20
Great analysis!
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 236
JuggernautJason155
ForJumy 37
ProTech8
CosmosSc2 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 1347
Shuttle 218
UpATreeSC 149
Dota 2
syndereN50
League of Legends
C9.Mang0156
Counter-Strike
FalleN 2446
Coldzera 1347
byalli1193
shoxiejesuss1029
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor165
Other Games
gofns12628
tarik_tv3597
Grubby1679
FrodaN1324
Beastyqt750
Liquid`Hasu280
ToD269
Mew2King129
QueenE99
Livibee79
KnowMe22
Liquid`Ken1
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 26
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 51
• Hupsaiya 29
• Adnapsc2 16
• Reevou 3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 69
• RayReign 28
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1459
• Shiphtur589
Other Games
• imaqtpie2349
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
3h 5m
Replay Cast
11h 5m
RongYI Cup
13h 5m
herO vs Solar
TriGGeR vs Maru
WardiTV Invitational
16h 5m
The PondCast
1d 11h
HomeStory Cup
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
HomeStory Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
HomeStory Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-26
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Rongyi Cup S3
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W6
Escore Tournament S1: W7
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
HSC XXVIII
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.