• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:57
CEST 00:57
KST 07:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8
Community News
MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon195.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes26Weekly Cups (June 22-28): Zergs thrive in new patch2[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)99
StarCraft 2
General
MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon 5.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) Is the larve respawn broken? ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! INu's Battles#17 <BO.9>
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All
Brood War
General
Best thing happen to StarCraft since Remastered? BW General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Starcraft vs Retro Category on Twitch ProGamer Paychecks Story
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL22] GosuLeague Casts - Tue & Thu 22:00 CEST
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
[94721]Better Good-Health Signs Than 3-15 Bans/Yea TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Men's Fashion Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard? Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Listen To The Coaches!
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4975 users

31,500 Replays - A look at balance in Starcraft II

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 15 16 17 Next All
godulous
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States337 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 07:58:57
February 04 2012 05:57 GMT
#1
For the past nearly 5 months, we've held 2 Playhem Daily tournaments every day on EU and NA. Our brackets fill to an average of 150-220 players each time and match verification is done by the players uploading replays and those replays have just been sitting on servers collecting dust - until now. Thanks in part to the wonderful work done by TL user Dakota_Fanning in creating Sc2Gears I've taken an in-depth look at how our map pool has been influencing tournament outcomes and balance in general.

Over 31,500 replays (so that's what it looks like) of mostly masters, grand masters, and professional gamers. I consider these to be a great representation of real-world statistics as the entry is free and no qualifications to sign up so a very wide range of players enter, unlike data from TLPD or the like which reflect mostly the very top tier. I present you my findings:

MLG Shattered Temple
[image loading]

Replays: 7486
Average Game Length: 10:49

TvP - 54%
PvZ - 45%
ZvT - 43%

MLG metalopolis
[image loading]

Replays: 6548
Average Game Length: 10:47

TvP - 54%
PvZ - 46%
ZvT - 49%

ESV Cloud Kingdom
[image loading]

Replays: 3040
Average Game Length: 11:36

TvP - 45%
PvZ - 52%
ZvT - 51%

MLG Antiga Shipyard
[image loading]

Replays: 2750
Average Game Length: 11:55

TvP - 59%
PvZ - 50%
ZvT - 52%

MLG Shakuras Plateau
[image loading]

Replays: 2425
Average Game Length: 11:46

TvP - 50%
PvZ - 53%
ZvT - 48%

GSL Dualsight
[image loading]

Replays: 2251
Average Game Length: 10:53

TvP - 57%
PvZ - 44%
ZvT - 50%

Nexus First FE - 35% win rate
Forge Fast Expand - 27% win rate
Pool, double hatch, double gas, roach - 61% win rate

Tal'Darim Altar LE
[image loading]

Replays: 1458
Average Game Length: 10:58

TvP - 51%
PvZ - 49%
ZvT - 51%



Misc. Stats:

Top 5 players by win-rate (with more than 50 games played)
Maynard (T) 87% - 169W 24L
viOLet[EU] (Z) 85% - 91W 16L
Campanella (T/Z) 85% - 69W 12L
uGpSwip (T) 84% - 93W 16L
BLY (Z) 84% - 70W 13L

Highest winrate opening build order for each race across all maps/matchups
[Terran] Supply Depot, Barracks, Refinery, Supply Depot, Factory, Supply Depot - 588 occurences / 60% winrate
[Protoss] Pylon, Gateway, Gateway, Pylon - 116 occurences / 62% winrate
[Zerg] Extractor, Spawning Pool, Hatchery - 95 occurences / 67% winrate

Honorable mention - the most played opening build order overall also has one of the consistently worst win rates.
[Protoss] Pylon, Gateway, Assimilator, Pylon, Cybernetics Core, Assimilator - 6289 occurences / 46% winrate

Conclusion
As tournament organizers, map makers, and a community as a whole we can have a huge impact on the balance of this game that goes almost as far as Blizzard's balance patches. As the game continues to develop and move forward I think it's important that some of these older maps are discontinued and replaced with better options (Dual Sight, Shattered, Metalopolis) or modified to compensate for the differences in win rates that are seen.

Tal'Darim Altar LE gets a special shout out for being possibly the most balanced map currently in our pool, it scored nearly 50% win rates for every match up and overall race win rates.

As a result of these numbers we've significantly changed our map pool the last few weeks and are going to continue to change it to include new maps and see how they stack up to the rest.

Finally, a word cloud including all chat from the replays. 33,076 GGs.

[image loading]

Note about the data presented:
+ Show Spoiler +
These are by no means perfect statistics, they are very rough data that I just wanted to share. There are surely many techniques and filters that could be applied to get much more accurate information out of this but I'll leave that to map makers and Blizzard. I think even with just the basic level of sorting I applied to the data, it can provide useful insight into map balance and overall race interactions.


upvote on reddit if you want to share this with others
Playhem.com | Ben.477 US | Ben.1125 EU
0kz
Profile Joined January 2010
Italy1118 Posts
February 04 2012 06:01 GMT
#2
wow overall maps look pretty balanced..
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
February 04 2012 06:02 GMT
#3
I love those statistics, great work. can you give us overall winrates in all matchups?
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
darkevilxe
Profile Joined August 2007
Canada346 Posts
February 04 2012 06:02 GMT
#4
wow this is incredible, thanks for this! i like how the best protoss bo statistically is a 2gate
lee365
Profile Joined December 2010
United States448 Posts
February 04 2012 06:02 GMT
#5
Proxy 2 gate represent. 62% winrate might make it one of the most effective cheeses in the game
Terran Fighting! NoSoupfOu.517
TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
February 04 2012 06:02 GMT
#6
love love love love love love it.

i dislike the low game average (10~mins)

however i like how most maps are almost all balanced (Taldarim LE REPRESENT!!!!!!!)

is there a download link for all 30k replays
Forever ZeNEX.
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
February 04 2012 06:03 GMT
#7
Nice. Even though it's not really at the highest level, it's still interesting to see.

And lol at 2gate being Protoss highest win rate build order, while the standard being the lowest. ><"!!

Thanks for this!
Depetrify
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
978 Posts
February 04 2012 06:03 GMT
#8
Thanks a ton for this! Its sick ! xD
SoKHo
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)1081 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 06:04:24
February 04 2012 06:03 GMT
#9
good work, nicely done

edit: I really like TDA's statistics. I know lots of zergs who hate zvp on it, but it is surprisingly balanced.
"If you don't understand my silence, you won't understand my words"|| Big Nal_rA fan boy!! Nal_rA, Bisu, Huk, MC, Hero fighting! SKT1---->
IMoperator
Profile Joined October 2011
4476 Posts
February 04 2012 06:03 GMT
#10
whenever i see these posts with stats that show terran winning most matchups, it makes me think why am I so bad vs. protoss or zerg
heartlxp
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1258 Posts
February 04 2012 06:03 GMT
#11
wow, impressive stuff sir! i really like the word cloud
Host-
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand459 Posts
February 04 2012 06:04 GMT
#12
Very very interesting information here.
It's interesting to see that maps that people feel are favoured to once race v another (ZvX on Metal, TvZ on Antiga) are in fact rather balanced.
Tal darim as the most balanced map is also quite interesting.
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
February 04 2012 06:04 GMT
#13
On February 04 2012 15:02 TyrantPotato wrote:
love love love love love love it.

i dislike the low game average (10~mins)

however i like how most maps are almost all balanced (Taldarim LE REPRESENT!!!!!!!)

is there a download link for all 30k replays


remember that this is real time, not game time
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
jeeneeus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1168 Posts
February 04 2012 06:04 GMT
#14
Who's Maynard? I feel like it's unlikely for it to be the same one from bw.
foxmeep
Profile Joined July 2009
Australia2337 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 06:05:53
February 04 2012 06:04 GMT
#15
On February 04 2012 15:01 0kz wrote:
wow overall maps look pretty balanced..


what? out of the entire map pool only ONE map is balanced. the rest have 1 or more matchups that aren't even remotely balanced.

Edit: and this is the issue with trying to balance the game. the maps play such a huge factor it's really difficult to say what's "imbalanced" or not.
JOJOsc2news
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
3000 Posts
February 04 2012 06:05 GMT
#16
The results of Dualsight aren't really surprising I think. Despite the general consensus that it's a good map I personally think it's a horrible map for Protoss due to the way the expansions are designed.

Overall a great write-up!
I think Tal'Darim Altar LE needs a few more replays to produce a significant result.
✉ Tweets @sc2channel ⌦ Blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/JOJO ⌫ "Arbiterssss... build more arbiterssss." Click 'Profile' for awesome shiro art!
Weaklink123
Profile Joined April 2011
United States159 Posts
February 04 2012 06:06 GMT
#17
This is really awesome that you could put this entire thing together. Thank you so much it really helps visualize what are great maps.
mYinsanityCoach 우정호 (KT Violet) - 1988 - 2012.
Zoia
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States419 Posts
February 04 2012 06:06 GMT
#18
PLAYHEM FIGHTING!!!
www.twitch.tv/starcraftsquad - Caster for Playhem.tv
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
February 04 2012 06:06 GMT
#19
Who would have thought Tal'darim is the most balanced among all those maps? lol
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
February 04 2012 06:07 GMT
#20
these stats don't really reflect balance and random masters players don't even play the game right anyway.

i.e.: Metal should be way more z favored, and antiga should be incredibly terran favored. Dual Sight and Shakuras should be more T favored TvZ too. Can't really comment on the other matchups.

Regardless, nice post. <3 Playhem
@KawaiiRiceLighT
1 2 3 4 5 15 16 17 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 354
NeuroSwarm 159
ViBE130
Nina 124
ZombieGrub103
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 450
Free 76
Bale 9
Counter-Strike
fl0m1413
Coldzera 1054
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox581
Other Games
summit1g12881
Grubby2315
shahzam691
PiGStarcraft319
C9.Mang0281
UpATreeSC49
ToD14
JuggernautJason12
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV270
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream185
Other Games
gamesdonequick51
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta30
• Hupsaiya 18
• Adnapsc2 7
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2780
League of Legends
• Scarra756
Other Games
• imaqtpie746
• Shiphtur285
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 3m
CrankTV Team League
12h 3m
Bombastic Starleague
21h 3m
The PondCast
1d 11h
HomeStory Cup
1d 12h
Replay Cast
2 days
HomeStory Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
HomeStory Cup
3 days
OSC
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S3
Douyu Cup 2026
Murky Cup 2026

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
SCTL 2026 Spring
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
ASL Season 22:Wild Card Qualifier
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Heroes Pulsing #3
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.