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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 03 2012 21:56 rgTheSchworz wrote: Nay, you would make a bad Batman, Toad. You gotta kill 2 ppl, one scum one not. Out of say 40, do you know the odds of shooting 2 specific ppl? DT helps as well because you find allies sometimes, which is helpful when playing on your own basically. Between kill X and DT X, kill X if it's late in the game,DT if early. Why? Because if you find town blues or Red power roles early, you benefit from following their train of thought, then deducing your targets by exclusion. For example, you find Hugo Strange as Catwoman, you look for whom he may have protected, those are scum and therefore not your targets, as you have to kill 2 blues. Better, you find a town DT. From his thread presence you deduce whom he has investigated, and shoot amongst those he confs as town. DT is useful, it only delays your kill count by 1, and you don't end up killing players that make other player's win condition easier to achieve. Else you may end up killing scum and lose because eventually town wins. You're a bluehunter basically. From the 4 targetsof BM/CW, only 1 is red. If Batman could PM the detective ability would be a whole lot better. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
To start off please please please don't everyone focus on batman/catwoman. In themed games with third roles I always see the town discussing plans/third party roles so much that it's pretty distracting and I think that's an environment where mafia can really take control. Some discussion is alright, day 1 is fine it gets people talking at least but scumhunting should always be #1 priority. Batman's role benefits town. Yes he has to take down a town aligned vig, but taking down the mafia godfather in exchange for a vig is a damn good trade. 1:1 town/mafia trade always benefits town. Assuming game doesn't end if third party wins, Batman benefits town whereas Catwoman does not. She should not be a primary lynch target unless we pin her Day 1 and there is no real better alternative. I think ignoring Catwoman is the best way to go. She does hurt town but mafia (tyger, I guess) hurts us more and we want to get to our win condition as fast as is possible. No reason for town to be trying to out Batman in this thread as far as I see? Is Batman able to fulfill his win condition if Hugo/Joker are lynched? If yes - it makes sense for Batman to try to help the town out by getting Hugo lynched and he'll just nighthit/DT whoever he thinks the Joker is. If no - Batman isn't much help to us but still a waste of a lynch and I feel like leaving the third party to their own devices and focusing on scumhunting is the best thing to do. I'd be wary of anyone crying for a lynch on Batman/Catwoman because they "hurt town", sounds like mafia trying to waste lynches that would otherwise hit scumbuddies to me. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 16:11 wherebugsgo wrote: I really love how Dr. H tells everyone to not talk about Batman/Catwoman and then proceeds to post a half page of text on nothing but third party strategy. That's not hypocritical or anything -_- whose smurf are you and why are you already annoying me with useless trash? Yeah I see it came off that way. If you read my whole post you would have seen that I qualified it Some discussion is alright, day 1 is fine it gets people talking at least but scumhunting should always be #1 priority. To clarify I meant to say that it's not something that town should focus on throughout the whole game but it's a good way to get the ball rolling on day 1 and some players might reveal some less than town motives in the process. It is however NOT the focus of our game. The towns focus is to find and lynch/hit scum players not to direct third parties. I'm not contradicting myself at all. it's been in my experience in theme games that the discussion of role mechanics/third parties is so overwhelming that it's still dominating the town day 2+ and that's bad play On February 06 2012 16:20 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Kenpachi's claim means absolutely nothing, just like it does every game... Sheth's gotta be scum, look at all that useless filler, and the games only just started. My activities going to be sub par for the next 16~24 hours, sorry in advance. Should be right after that though. I disagree with DocH, who's to know if batman/catwoman are going to shoot accurately. That's not a risk I want to take, when we could reduce overall KP and give ourselves more time to analyse instead. To kick off some real discussion. I'd like to discuss the Joker claiming ASAP. Sure he dies overnight, but then we have batman as essentially a buffed up version of the same role from that night until the gf dies. Catwoman's targets on the other hand, where do we balance a known two townie deaths vs potentially a lot more as the game drags on? This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. You're assuming that handing over the Joker in any way helps us find Hugo, but it doesn't. Keep your mouth shut about the Joker, if you find Hugo that's when you speak up. Batman helps us in the end if he fulfills both of his win conditions. What if we manage lynch Hugo Day 1? Don't jump the gun taking stupid risks this early. At first I thought bad idea (I don't like sacrificing town powerroles), but after thinking it through I think this might be a good idea. Because if Joker is a standard vig with one shot he won't help us all that much anyways. Vig is one of the best pro-town roles Tunkeg, if not THE best in the hands of a good player. Batman is not completely on our side either way. Consider two scenarios: 1. Joker claims and is killed by Batman Outcome - Batman win condition half fulfilled, Town vig dead Night 1 2. Joker doesn't claim and Batman uses DT powers at night Outcome - Equal chance of him either finding Hugo OR The Joker. We lose nothing. We don't NEED to give him some kind of "offering" to get him to "help" us. If he wants to win he has to help us in one capacity and if he manages to find Hugo first (completely plausible) he is no longer a factor in a town victory. There is no logical advantage to town for offering up the Joker. Vig is a crucial role for the town to have especially late game. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 17:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Town has nothing to lose, unless they make a claim that nothing can be made of an issue, as you were attempting to do. As such, pushing Kenpachi for his claim is your scum agenda. Batman has no motivation to simply sit back and watch. The faster town can hunt Hugo, the less Batman risks being end games. Additionally, the Bat can't die at night, so if he's extremely pro-town, he at much less risk of being lynched if it comes down to the end game. Short of knowing her targets, Catwoman will be essentially hoping for a mafia victory, and thus killing the most pro-town people. If we neutralize Catwoman ASAP, and get Batman on our side, we gain a massive advantage. Yes we lose three townies in the immediate future, but it's better than risking losing more when we don't have to. Catwoman is immune to night hits and is not mafia, lynching her is much worse than lynching anybody on the tyger side of things. Town wins by lynching scum. Period. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote: If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Batman's best long term play is to use DT checks and only hit when he finds Joker/Hugo. He wants to prevent either faction from winning the game until he fulfills his condition, right? If he keeps shooting townies, he's pushing the mafia toward a faster win and making it more likely that the game will end before he finds either target. If I'm Batman I'm DTing at night whoever I think might be Joker first and scumhunting in hopes of lynching Hugo. If Joker dies, then I start DTing looking for Hugo. If I shoot randomly (unblockable hit) I'm helping scum win faster which is bad for me. If it's demonstrated through the first night or 2 that Batman is definitely using his KP anyway then Joker should take a shot on our #1 lynch target Day2/3 then claim if it's legal. That 1:1 trade is pretty good, but I just think we're being too eager with this. Vig is a good role, let's think before we get rid of it on the first day. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote: I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 20:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: If the early DT checks die, it was all for naught. He might as well shoot into the dark. This makes absolutely no sense | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 20:03 Tunkeg wrote: Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though. My way: Early hits is pretty safe for Batman as both factions are far from elimination. Therefor my logic is that he might as well just hit and try his luck instead of DT the ones he suspects and then later hit them. Dr H's way: DT all the way until he finds his targets. Secure that Batman don't help any faction, and is the safer option as he won't whittle away any of the factions. It might take longer for Batman to secure his objectives compared to my way, but it is definatly safer. Your way: DT early and hit late makes Batmans hit more accurate as he have less people to chose from. But this is the most risky strat of it all for Batman IMO. Cause if Batman misshit lategame he might just end the game. Well, now I have rambled on long enough about the Joker claim thing. I think all of you know where I stand and why. Unless someone want me to clarify more on my stance I will just leave this for now, so other topics may be discussed or others might put in their two cents on the Joker claim thing. I'm voting for you because of this quote: Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though. No way you're that wishy washy if you're convinced your plan is pro-town, especially when it concerns the life of a blue? You're just distancing yourself from the heat now. I'm voting for you Day 1, I was gonna vote for Kpach because we need to stop letting him get away with this "hehe im just dumb i always claim green day 1  im not mafia just stupid" act he does in every single game, but that just really rustles my jimmies right there. Vaguest empty statement I've seen in this game so far. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 22:01 ico wrote: And we have another herp derp poster. You are making your own case. Only scum knows whether someone is on their team by now. So you are either scum or stupid townie. In each case you are a threat to town. I don't know if this is OMGUS or a horrible horrible misunderstanding of what Adam posted. Hopefully it's not a language barrier issue. He didn't seriously claim he knows what team anyone is on, he's using the random vote which is viable this early in the game and making a lighthearted joke about it. That's really not scummy. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 22:34 ico wrote: It is way to early in day 1 to go for a random vote. The person Adam votes for has not even posted in the thread yet. I'd not care so much about it if it was close to the posting and voting deadline, which makes a random vote excusable, but still not desired. Please note I have not put my vote on him yet, about ten people haven't even posted and day 1 still lasts for quite a while. But I am seriously irritated by the fact that actions like day1 townclaim or early day 1 random votes are done at all and get defended by other posters. Yeah, it's pretty normal in fact I think at mafiascum town usually even declares a random voting stage and they are much better players than TL players so I don't see what you're getting at | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 22:47 ico wrote: I am aware of that and there is a distinction between having a random voting stage and just randomly voting in a situation that doesn't force it. But we should probably have any further discussion about that after this game, it is derailing. It's not derailing because it's your reason for voting lol | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 22:47 Kurumi wrote: Also why are we discussing 3rd party strategy, besides giving them advice and generating void discussion because not much can be analysed from that. They play for themselves and were here to win as whole: town. When I get home I will try to compose some lists, maybe even graphs. Best way to get the day 1 discussion rolling besides elections/rvs/clues You think you can't get any reads based off of peoples reactions to what has been discussed? | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 06 2012 23:46 Kurumi wrote: I said not much. If there was normal serial killer in play, would You discuss something about him besides his existence ? It's good for day 1. There has been a "town" plan to have the joker sacrifice himself day 1 when it's obvious Batman would just use his DT power unless he's an idiot. That's good enough for me. I'm done talking about that joke of a plan. If it is a scum proposal, they're gonna ditch it and move on to something else probably an easy lynch like rg or kenpachi | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On February 07 2012 02:03 VisceraEyes wrote: I see that Kitaman might be scum! I've made one action this game, and it was an attempt to get clarity from the mod. Somehow this makes me scum? The reason I asked was this: It's a little ambiguous as to how the deadshot KP works and I wanted mod confirmation that it wasn't what I read it as...which is that Strange gives him a character name and Deadshot kills that guy if he's in the game. The reason I thought it worked this way is because of the fact that not all the names mentioned are guaranteed to be in the game, so it would be a decent way to force scum to think about how they use that KP, because it could be ineffective. Anyway, the fact that anyone is voting for me for this is a little disturbing considering there's already like 3 pages of setup speculation and a mass-claim has been proposed. Kitaman, care to explain your vote in a little detail? Or are you scum just hoping to start a bandwagon? Showed up real real quick to defend yourself, just like you showed up quick to defend Liquid'Sheth, changing my vote for sure | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
This is a player who made it understood, before the game, that he would be active. 1. His first post is defending Sheth by attacking a player who is suspicious of him, with no substance. He asks a question to the mod, this is a great thing to do as scum by the way it gives you something to fall back on that scum "totally wouldn't do". Sheth's only posts are early starting the easy FOS on kenpachi that happens in literally every single game kenpachi plays in. He is the easiest person to get lynched Day 1 usually, mafia want EASY bandwagons that look kinda scummy, they only risk huge lynches when they are threatened. 2. Is totally inactive, shows up again when he is called out and then OMGUS votes. You're voting to lynch someone on Day 1 because you don't like their "reasons" for voting? But the reasons for voting on KPach who green claims every single game meaninglessly are solid right? 3. Other players defending him chainsaw. Liquid'Sheth also comes back with more fluffy comments about the already finished Batman discussion. I really wish we would stop beating this horse and CC's claims are even more ridiculous. I'll address those soon in this post but let me reiterate it makes no strategical advantage for Batman OR Catwoman to shoot before using DT. On February 07 2012 06:36 VisceraEyes wrote: First of all ##Unvote: kitaman27 Now for the good stuff. VisceraEyes Lynch List of Accuracy layabout - For criticizing others play as being non-contributory, yet contributes nothing of substance himself. Any idea who he thinks is scum? Me either. Katina - Again, criticizing others for not contributing, but not contributing. Masquerading doesn't count guys - you actually have to do something. kitaman27 - Kita appears to be doing something akin to scumhunting, and because he's a veteran, I'm willing to wait on his lynch - however, I think he's scum because he appealed to Forumite's suspicion of me to try and get a bandwagon started, but never even really voted for me…just stinks and I don't like it. But again, Kita is my weakest read at this point and I wouldn't be butthurt if we didn't lynch him today. Also, Palmar is mistaken - lynching me is totally NOT always a net-gain for town. He's saying this because he's a prick. So, there you have it. ##Vote: layabout All 3 players contributed more than he did. All VE has done is defend himself. All you're really doing is pointing out 2 players who haven't contributed much yet but making it look like you're doing some serious scumhunting. I don't know if you are usually this dramatic about absolutely nothing as town though. Someone can inform me of that. On February 07 2012 07:13 Cyber_Cheese wrote: alright, new plan, if hugo winds up dead, the joker comes forward. And we kill docH because he's catwoman Ridiculous. Even if I was Catwoman, I'd have no incentive to use my hits until late in the game. DO NOT WASTE LYNCHES ON THIRD PARTY. IT IS A WASTED LYNCH. Town does NOT win by lynching SKs. Town must LYNCH scum. Catwoman is a threat to town, mafia is a bigger threat, and the only threat that involves our win condition. Not only is his interpretation of my posts which are focused on making sure the town doesn't give up the joker terrible, but he misunderstands my whole point. My whole point is that Batman/Catwoman shouldn't shoot. We can't cut a bargain with them because they have no incentive to "help" us and can't even claim. HE was the one who made the plan centered around killing a townie to help Batman, I said we don't need to do it and realized pretty quickly that BM/CW won't even shoot early game. That makes me catwoman? That's the most desperate call I've ever heard. JayJay says "a scum win is a catwoman win", which is not true. CW wins if Two-Face and Penguin are dead. She does not want scum to win the game before that happens. If that happens, she does not care who wins. It's as simple as that. Yes it is a role that hurts town. It is also a lower priority than lynching mafia. Insinuating that I might be third party or scum for saying we should just use our lynches to kill scum really is a mindfuck and I'm gonna be really disappointed if both of you guys flip green or blue at the end of this game, take some time off to learn how to play town please. There are a lot of FOSs flying around which is good for later analysis. I don't like Kurumi or Palmar right now but it'll take a bit of time to see how that develops. For the time being my strongest reads are on : Liquid'Sheth - Long posts with no substance/easy FOS VE - Posts only to defend himself/others for most of the game CC - FOS me for talking about neutrals when he invented the bad plan focusing on them, advocates lynching third party instead of scum Kurumi - I don't like these "scum list" things, especially on Day 1. It makes it look like you did some work but there's basically no thought in it. No one cares what your little hunches are. It is alright to have some FOSs flying around if you flip it gives us something to go off of, but put some more thought into it, that's all. | ||
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