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Game on Shakuras. I open reactor hellion into marine tank, standard. He opens infestor off two base then proceeds to double expand around ten minutes. He leaves his infestors in the middle of the map and then techs to muta. I couldn't tank push because my marines couldnt lead my tanks so my tanks started getting picked off, he had spines at each expo so drops weren't an option either. After I started thinking of what I could do he had 10 broodlords.
This is high masters level by the way, so i'm capable of doing more complicated openings. If somebody has ideas please link me replays to high level games if you think that would help. Thanks for your help in advance.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Aquila_vs_(Z)Sun/14204
Edit: I should add, I usually push out around 11:30 with this build, but when I saw those lings run into my 3rd I had to kill them before I pushed or they would have just countered and done a lot of damage. Once I killed them infestors were out.
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Why not lead with a couple of ghosts? EMP them / chase them off. Ghosts do well againts all 3 the tech you mentioned. I didnt watch and im not in masters, just a suggestion.
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Hey buddy, some of your major issues are:
Way late on upgrades, his lings were 2/2 while your marines were 1/0 and 0/0 tanks, you need 1/0 on tanks ASAP becuase 0/1 lings can survive a shot otherwise. Get upgrades sooner and more consistently
Another problem, not enough medivacs. You try one drop the entire game and its not even duel pronged so he easily picks it off and your marines were way too weak to deal any damage against the mutas anyway (again upgrades) you really need 2/2 to start wrecking muta balls.
You concentrate too much on tanks when you dont really need so many, you needed to either expand more aggressively or push more aggressively, you can still push against infestors you just push with tanks and marines spread out really well and with turrets. Its slow obviously.
You were mostly just really weak because you were totally out upgraded and you played too passively both economically and armywise.
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Well you could get ghost, but the best solution is to do what you said was impossible. Push.
Siege you tanks and leap frog them. When you need vision over the blockers use your medics or scan. Infestors have nothing on that.
Also you need plus better ups bro. +1 on tanks is so important. As +! armor lings tank 2 shots instead of 1.
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Thanks for the replies, I got a bit lost this game because I felt more tanks were my only option against infestors, as i've heard pros talk recently about tanks being the "counter" to infestors. As a result my upgrades/medivac count suffered. Thanks for the replies so far.
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You didnt pressure at all, You opened reactor hellion which got blind shut down by 2 spines on a ramp. You saw a roach warren but no roaches. If i was in your position, I woulda made a starport after instead of more rax. The zerg has no army at 9 min into the game. If you had delayed your first tank and gotten a medivac out, you coulda punished him and more importantly got some scouting in. Your build actually has 0 scouting post hellions, you could also have set your hellions to deny thirds and deny creep (didnt happen this game), and poke once in a while to see an army.
You also had a push timing at 9 min 30 seconds, of course its hard to know that so i dont fault you for that. but your opponent was being extremely greedy for basically the first 9 min. The build you do, is a timing push oriented push, once mutas come out it becomes very hard for you since you sac tech and temporarily econ for a strong army (till your third is set up.)
Infestor ling is weak to drops and you coulda abused that, you also had timings to win due to your opponent throwing away units and continuing to be greedy. but would have required really strong control from you
Oh and also, in that last battle i dont think you had lost the game. You were quite behind but not dead and you coulda won that battle but of course you couldnt see how many units he had, so i cant blame you for that either.
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I noticed that there were a lot of oversights in that game that I think if you fixed would of turned out a lot better.
1) There was a major lack of scouting in that game. By the end of the game you had no idea that the top left of the map was take, or that he took his fifth in front of the natural, even when you had the watch tower for a long time.
2) Your starport was incredibly late and you didn't start pumping medivacs until 15 minutes into the game.
3) You had a lot of tech lab barracks but not a whole lot of reactor barracks, would could of helped you later in the game.
4) Someone said this before but you started your upgrades very late in the game as well. dont worry about losing some marines to drops, it gives you information and it allows you to get their army out of position so that you can have a better one.....all of your engagements were on your side of the map.
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I've been having a lot of trouble scouting in this MU simply because i don't know how to correctly. Burning scans trying to get lucky hasn't fared too well for me. From what I understand, most of the scouting done from drops in this MU? I am really far behind in TvZ because up until I got higher up in masters I was able to win from macro really.
Thanks for everyones insightful tips. I have a much better understanding of where i'm going wrong here.
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On October 07 2011 12:30 Just_A_PhasE wrote:
I've been having a lot of trouble scouting in this MU simply because i don't know how to correctly. Burning scans trying to get lucky hasn't fared too well for me. From what I understand, most of the scouting done from drops in this MU? I am really far behind in TvZ because up until I got higher up in masters I was able to win from macro really.
Thanks for everyones insightful tips. I have a much better understanding of where i'm going wrong here.
Theres basically two streams of play, biomech which involves a ton of dropping and the standard tank marine stuff you see, which is basically what you are doing a version of except without the dropping which is integral to the build. You need to apply pressure to multiple places at once, not just add in a drop here and there. You send out a drop, move forward with your army and then send 8marines and a medivac off from your main army to drop somewhere else, 3 places pressured no problem. Very hard to defend.
Other choice is mech which typicaly involves a quick 2-3bases and a big doom push at 200 or sometimes just involves massive amounts of turtling and basically defending forever. (dont see that version very much)
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On October 07 2011 09:22 Just_A_PhasE wrote:
He leaves his infestors in the middle of the map and then techs to muta. I couldn't tank push because my marines couldnt lead my tanks
I dont quite understand this. You want to leapfrog your tanks while pushing. Have always one tank leading your army and of course not the marines. Always have some tanks sieged while approaching the zerg base so you can push against infestors as well. Choose a narrow path, on shakuras you want to push between his main and the cliff near the xel'naga tower.
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Question. I am pretty sure I have this problem too but with every race, what is the best way to scout a zerg player like 7 or 8 mins into games, without using scans?
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On October 07 2011 18:33 Pockets_29 wrote:
Question. I am pretty sure I have this problem too but with every race, what is the best way to scout a zerg player like 7 or 8 mins into games, without using scans?
You can get really creative with this, especially as Terran. There's always a drop into their main or natural where they might have their tech structures, you could send a banshee or hell, even a viking that you may have been using to clear up overlords (But be careful about Muta timings for all these).
There's always a quick Hellion run by unless he has his ramps constantly blocked, which you have to go up to see. Usually at that time I have my expo up and set so I'll usually scan around then anyway... but any of these work.
Something else you could do is just reveal your main army to him and fake a push and then try to look at what units his makes to get an idea of his tech. Although if you are looking for spire timings, scans are probably the easiest.
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As shishy said, there are alot of ways to scout in TvZ, but you really have to look to your own build and incorporate scouting that is relevant to your own builds. For example, if you are doing a greedy FE, you might want to scan on the zerg natural once your expansion is set up. If he has 2 gas, he is teching and probably isnt going to attack you, if he has no gas thats a sign he either is planning to aggro or has taken a third. whatever he spawns from his larva if you catch that is also a good sign.
Aggression (not just drops) is the easiest way to scout in TvZ but things dont always work out the way you want so thats when scan is important when you miss aggression scouting you didnt get for w.e reason.
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On October 07 2011 11:24 statikg wrote:
Hey buddy, some of your major issues are:
Way late on upgrades, his lings were 2/2 while your marines were 1/0 and 0/0 tanks, you need 1/0 on tanks ASAP becuase 0/1 lings can survive a shot otherwise. Get upgrades sooner and more consistently
Another problem, not enough medivacs. You try one drop the entire game and its not even duel pronged so he easily picks it off and your marines were way too weak to deal any damage against the mutas anyway (again upgrades) you really need 2/2 to start wrecking muta balls.
You concentrate too much on tanks when you dont really need so many, you needed to either expand more aggressively or push more aggressively, you can still push against infestors you just push with tanks and marines spread out really well and with turrets. Its slow obviously.
You were mostly just really weak because you were totally out upgraded and you played too passively both economically and armywise.
this ^. drop A LOT vs any kind of infestor play. It doesn't matter if spines at each base -- you can find multiple areas where there is no spine covering or only 1 spine covering.
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You can get really creative with this, especially as Terran. There's always a drop into their main or natural where they might have their tech structures, you could send a banshee or hell, even a viking that you may have been using to clear up overlords (But be careful about Muta timings for all these).
There's always a quick Hellion run by unless he has his ramps constantly blocked, which you have to go up to see. Usually at that time I have my expo up and set so I'll usually scan around then anyway... but any of these work.
Something else you could do is just reveal your main army to him and fake a push and then try to look at what units his makes to get an idea of his tech. Although if you are looking for spire timings, scans are probably the easiest.
I see but what if you are in the lower leagues where players don't pay attention to things and overreact or even react at all when you do a fake push? I am assuming just go with the other options?
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EPT
