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Original Thread By Arch (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229374433):
This is something interesting to consider for stalkers. I was experimenting with the galaxy editor and I decided to remove the attack delay that occurs between the time when an attack command is issued and a laser is fired. To avoid confusion, this has nothing to do with the time in between each attack. It is a measure of how quickly the unit responds to the attack command. Then secondly as part of this particular experiment, I had increased the firing arc to 360 degrees. I figured this feature is what really made dragoons so badass, so I wanted to check out the stalkers with this feature. The combined effect of these two tweaks was that the stalkers felt more smooth and responsive to commands, almost like driving a bmw compared to an old ford. The biggest consequence of the changes was that their "stutter step" capabilities were greatly improved. In the middle of a heated battle, I could move - shoot - move - shoot - move - shoot and maneuver around the battle pretty much without losing any dps. In my opinion the change gives the stalker the ability to use it's strong attributes (speed, mobility, and range) to their maximum potential in a way that is fun and demands micro. Also, in my honest opinion, the change was not so extreme that the stalkers felt overpowered. It was still very tight to micro against marines, for example. But it made it doable. Stalkers vs marines currently, even with the 1 range differential, is near impossible to stutter-step micro because marines have 0 delay and a near immediate turning speed, meanwhile stalkers have a crippling attack delay, and a slower turning speed. I didn't take exact notes on the turning speed numbers, so you will have to forgive me on that one. Also I should note that this change does not increase a stalkers dps. It decreases the *drop* in dps when stalkers are shooting on the move, and it does it in a way that scales with micro. IMO it's an awesome change. So that was my experiment. I think it would be cool if some of you out there could try out these settings in your editor and let me know what you think of it. Maybe it's the spark that stalkers needed to be appreciated.  Thanks for taking the time to read.
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Custom Map by BigO (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229385061)
In response to this thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3229374433I have made a map to test out these changes on stalkers. The attack delay has been lowered to the same as marines and they have a much improved turn speed too. This doesn't change the actual DPS, but this lets you do true stutter stepping with Stalkers and they feel MUCH more agile. Honestly it feels a bit OP to me, but a lot of people have requested changes like this to the game so this is your chance to try it out yourself! The map is called Stutter Stalkers and it's public now if you search for it. What says the community? Welcome change or too OP? Edit: Changed map name to make it easier to find
I'm almost positive this will put protoss back into the game, and add much better dynamic play to the protoss race that it needs so immensely at the moment.
Things to consider:
It will help with marine scv all in's as well as 1-1-1 all ins, and roach-ling all in's making it a micro war instead of purely unit compositions.
It will also make stalker harass via blink or a warp prism highly viable.
Play the custom game, and I assure you, that you'll all agree!
(The stalker still fires a projectile, its not like a voidray or marine animation, if this caused any confusion).
WORTH NOTING:
- Speedlings / marauders / speed roaches / stimmed marines still interact the EXACT same as with normal stalkers. The only difference is that it aids in small battles like all in's.
- I'm seeing a lot of, well the stalker would just own zerg early game and it would be too easy. Folks, stalkers can kite slow roaches or slow lings anyways. Its very easy  and the game seems to be fine in that regard right now.
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Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
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I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
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Really, all the basic ranged units for all the races should either behave this way, or not. Obviously the higher tech units can have different micro-feels but I think the game would be greatly improved if you could stalker/roach stutter step easier than you can now.
However, I suspect marines will continue to be the only unit that can micro its way through pretty much anything.
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I highly suggest everyone plays the custom map. You'll never want to use regular stalkers ever again. Its feel SO much better.
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it would make it so they can kite marines early game without even being hit ... on a map like taldarim that'd be pretty imba
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On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote:
Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future.
Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
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I'd be very interested to see a video on this. I don't know if this would be a good idea, and i don't know how it would fit in the current state of sc2, but it would still be very interesting to see. If done correctly this should not end up being a buff, but a lateral tweak.
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On September 24 2011 05:41 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote:
Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future. Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
say that say to a ... mothership ? or corruptor ?
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On September 24 2011 05:42 ander wrote:
I'd be very interested to see a video on this. I don't know if this would be a good idea, and i don't know how it would fit in the current state of sc2, but it would still be very interesting to see. If done correctly this should not end up being a buff, but a lateral tweak.
Theres a custom game called Stutter Stalkers.
Play it, and you'll understand the change completely.
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On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:
I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
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Mmm i feel as if the relationships regarding stalkers as it is right now is fine, stutter stepping vs marines taking absolutely 0 dmg is quite difficult yeah, but the amount of dmg you take only taking 1 shot from marines compared to giving one to them (especially when you factor in its a 45 hp marine and a 160ish shield+hp stalker) it's not like stalkers are exactly weak against them, it wouldnt change the relationship against marauder concussive cos it would still mean youre boned regardless... But early stalker pressure against zerg would become way too good (im talking small pokes with 1-2 before speed).
The changes, whilst would make the unit much more fun to control for us, i feel would break the early game of both matchups pretty signifcantly, forcing zerg to speedling open every single game, and not allowing terrans to poke out past their ramp/nat bunker what so ever with reactor or gasless openings.
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On September 24 2011 05:45 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:
I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though...
Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
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how about we give all ranged units the voidray mechanic, shooting in the front while moving ? you know this change would be accompanied by a range nerf to 5 in order for marines and roaches to be not super hard contert ?
You shouldn't think one sided when thinking about changes :3.
I like the current kiting it takes way more to do, those changes just sound like easy mode. I was always missing the ranged upgrade for stalkers in the core, though that would mean halluzination would never be researched lol.
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On September 24 2011 05:41 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:38 coddan wrote:
Of all Protoss units, Stalkers is hardly the one that needs a buff. With 1.4 I doubt they're going to need anything for a foreseeable future. Stalkers have the worst DPS/cost ratio of any unit in the game, I think making the micro for them more important would do wonders for them, and the race as a whole. I mean marines have this and they are the exact opposite, highest DPS/cost ratio unit in the game.
Yeah but when you micro them they are useful. -.- Inane random first post.
This is definitely interesting. It was always wierd to me looking at Tempest's game on Bluestorm in BW and watching a dragoon kill 30 marines with lovely kiting and then watch sc2 where even with the best micro the stalker was almost guaranteed to recieve a modicum of damage.
edit: christ. It's interesting how good t and z's think stalkers are compared to Toss. Just play the map -.-
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On September 24 2011 05:46 Ftrunkz wrote:
Mmm i feel as if the relationships regarding stalkers as it is right now is fine, stutter stepping vs marines taking absolutely 0 dmg is quite difficult yeah, but the amount of dmg you take only taking 1 shot from marines compared to giving one to them (especially when you factor in its a 45 hp marine and a 160ish shield+hp stalker) it's not like stalkers are exactly weak against them, it wouldnt change the relationship against marauder concussive cos it would still mean youre boned regardless... But early stalker pressure against zerg would become way too good (im talking small pokes with 1-2 before speed).
The changes, whilst would make the unit much more fun to control for us, i feel would break the early game of both matchups pretty signifcantly, forcing zerg to speedling open every single game, and not allowing terrans to poke out past their ramp/nat bunker what so ever with reactor or gasless openings.
Oh yeah I didn't think about that, hahaha, its pretty easy to kite slowlings as they are now. A change like this would make Stalkers dominant as hell in ZvP
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Brazil4390 Posts
On September 24 2011 05:46 axellerate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:45 windsupernova wrote:On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:
I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though... Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
HuK is pretty damn good at not taking damage wit those ^^.
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On September 24 2011 05:48 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:46 axellerate wrote:On September 24 2011 05:45 windsupernova wrote:On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:
I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though... Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage. HuK is pretty damn good at not taking damage wit those ^^.
Im sorry to inform you, but its impossible to take no dmg. The time delay on the stalker is more than enough for an a-click marine to close the distance. Feel free to test it out.
This is without stim of course.
Looking forward to hearing comments about the custom game and how it feels.
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Stalkers are kind of the go to unit anyway, though. It would be nice to diversify Protoss rather than making Stalkers even more popular.
Nevertheless, as a Protoss, I like it.
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On September 24 2011 05:46 axellerate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:45 windsupernova wrote:On September 24 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:
I agree. I mean if Terran can get by so easily by kiting with their rax units and zergs can kite easy with roaches (sometimes, maybe look into that?), surely one kite-using gateway unit isn't going to break the game, is it?
Stalkers can Kite perfectly fine though... Stalkers cannot kite marines because of their attack delay. Its impossible, they will always take damage.
They can get away with receiving only Shield damage, and Shields are now much better in SC2 when you compare it to BW. If anything(because I have been thinking about this too) I'd prefer a Stalker range upgrade but that would probably break PvZ.
hmmm, maybe I dunno. I think Stalkers are ok as they are now. They might need some tweaks but overall they feel pretty ... solid
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EPT
