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PvZ: 6 gate opening

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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uhjoo
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)1740 Posts
March 31 2005 05:30 GMT
#1
This is an interesting strat I read on pgr21, authored by one IntotheNal_rA-- not particularly revolutionary (this strat has been around for awhile) but I thought it was particularly well written so I thought I'd translate it (very roughly, only the very important parts) and see what you gosus thought. The original post is here:

http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1236

At the top of the page there are also two replays (unfortunately probably not 1.12, although I'm not sure) demonstrating the build at the top of the page.

Even if you don't like this build, I hope you appreciate the kind of effort this guy put into writing this guide-- I sort of hope TL strategy forum could also go in this direction, with people actually putting in alot of time in explaining their build after they KNOW it works.

Cheers!

-----

Hello, I’m a protoss user going by the ID IntotheNal_rA. I’m writing this to introduce a build I’ve used almost everyday for the past year—a build that has become something of my own trademark build.

I. How I came to make this build

Normally in a pvz, a protoss using a 1-gate build always sends a probe to scout and almost always sends 1 zealot as harass. The probe scouts the zerg’s position, delays pool or hatchery placement, and harasses drones. And the 1 zealot, once it arrives, does its best to hunt drones, avoid zerglings and must stay alive as long as possible to buy time to tech and to prevent zerglings from immediately countering.

As a protoss user, I did the same thing as above. I usually built a pylon 7-8, gate 9-10, and the 1 zealot from this build would achieve, at best, the results above (but no better.) However, even if I was able to achieve everything above, the zerg would comfortably go 3 hatchery, and the rest of the game would be difficult. Even if I won, the game would always be difficult. 2-gate hardcore zealots were even more difficult, and double nexus was always risky and not safe enough...

For me, the solution was “fastest 1st zealot as possible” and “If the zerg starts out by taking his natural, destroy it or force a cancel with a cheese rush”.

So for awhile I played with a 6pylon/7gate build, but one day I tried a 6 pylon 6 gate build and learned that this was very effective. The first zealot obviously comes out much faster, and even though my probe production was cut, I felt “richer.” So from that point on I’ve been using this build continually.

II. Introducing this build

6 Pylon  6 gate after 150. mins
The probe which built the gate scouts
Probes until 9/17  Gate finishes, 1st zealot
Probes until 13/17  2nd zealot
Probes until 16/17 or 17/17  2nd pylon

This is the basic build, no matter your starting location.

III. The goals of the build?

1) Fast zealot
2) Destroy or force a cancel of risky fast hatchery at natural with a cheese rush
3) Force zergling production
4) Economic stability due to continual probe production after gateway (to be more exact, this is not a hungry build)

This is the summary. Now I will explain the logic behind each of these goals.

1) No explanation necessary…

2) If the starting positions are 2/8 on lost temple for instance, unless the zerg goes 9 hatchery, the zerg must either cancel the hatch or must use his drones and buy time until his zerglings come out. However, even this option of delaying is only a possibility if he went 10 hatchery or so.

12 hatchery is very weak against my build. Even if all the drones come out to buy time, he will be hurt too much, and even if he cancels, there are 2 zealots and a probe to block the ramp when his zerglings come out. In a very short time the 3rd zealot arrives and in the meantime the protoss will have either teched or have gotten a forge for +1 ups… so as zerg 12 hatchery expanding is walking right into a trap.

3) Although the zerg doesn’t always make many zerglings, it is usually how zergs react if they scout the 6 gateway build. Afterwards zergs usually go 2 hatchery at their main, break the zealot hold on their ramp, and go 3 hatchery afterwards.

4) Probe production is constant after the gateway is built. Although this is obviously not a “rich” build, it isn’t particularly “hungry.” If this build works as it should, the result is that the protoss is about as rich as an 8 pylon 10 gate 1-gate build, and the zerg has built zerglings where he would normally have been making drones or going 3 hatchery. If not, they tend to go straight hydra, or even 2 hatch lair in their main.

IV. Variations depending on different starting positions or different responses by the zerg (“Execution”)

I’ll take starting at 12 as an example.

If you start at 12 and the zerg starts at 3, normally you will know by the scouting overlord. The most conservative build is to add a gateway after the initial build order in section 2 above. Because the first zealot comes out fast, any 4-9 pool zergling rush can be stopped very easily. In the case that the zerg goes 12 pool, it is possible to hunt drones with the first zealot. If the zerg goes 2 hatchery in main (9-10-11 drone), it’s safe to say you can catch 1-2 drones unless the zerg has superb micro. Needless to say, 12 twin hatchery is even worse for the zerg.

For ramp hatchery, hatchery under the ramp, or hatchery at the natural, it will be difficult to build because of the scouting probe but even if it gets built, you can simply destroy it with a cheese rush (**** it is good to leave at least 4-5 probes at your main when you do this cheese rush*****)

No matter what the zerg’s response is, you can just play normally after your second gateway is built, and the overall result is that you will in the end still have 2 gates, but will be better off than if you went a standard 8 pylon 10 gate 11 gate build.

If the zerg is at 9, pay more attention to your scouting probe, to harass more effectively and to prevent the zerg from expanding fast to his natural. If you delay the hatchery to around 12 drone hatchery timing, let him start the hatchery, since he won’t be able to finish it anyhow. But if he still hasn’t build a hatchery at around that timing, it means he went pool first. If you’ve forced him to go pool first, your position isn’t bad, your start isn’t bad… and as protoss you can say you’ve succeeded in the early game.

In the case that the zerg goes pool first, if the zerg takes his expansion without making zerglings, the protoss is at a disadvantage. So make sure to continue to harass the drone coming out to build the hatchery. If no drone comes out to build at his natural, that means he either is going twin hatchery in main or makes zergling first and then will take his expansion. In this case, it’s a good idea to hide your 1st zealot in a corner in his main. You’re faking as if your second zealot is actually your first zealot.

Finally, your scouting probe goes to 9 and there’s only an overlord… that means he’s at 6. In this case you can’t harass him from taking his natural. Once you arrive it’s already building. As soon as you see him building, leave 4-5 probes at your main and cheese rush. Once the zerg sees this with his overlord or drones, he will cancel the hatchery or bring out 5-6 drones. However…

The first zealot arrives very quickly. Unless the zerg is very skilled it is impossible to stop this cheese rush. If the zerg is thinking “I went 9 hatch to safely expand so I can stop it,” he’s screwed. Either he will lose his hatchery, or will take a lot of damage trying to protect it. However, as protoss you must be very careful. A fast hatchery build like 9 hatchery is difficult to destroy, and in the process you may lose all of your attacking probes. The difference between making sure your probes can return alive and losing them all is huge. You need to judge when you’ve done enough damage.

If your starting point is at 3, there isn’t much difference from if you start at 12. However, if the zerg starts at 9, it’s best that you play more conservatively than when you start at 12 and he is at 6. And if he is at 6, you can play more aggressively than when you start at 12 and he is at 9. And of course there’s a possibility he might be at 12 (the scouting overlord can avoid being seen, unlike when you are at 12 and he is at 3)

V. Playing after the early game

To be honest there’s no one answer. If I had a clear answer I wouldn’t be writing this, I’d probably be practicing in a proteam -_-

However from my experience I will note a few words of caution:

- When you’ve forced a cancel and have blocked ramp with zealots:
Either the zerg will try to break through with zerglings or will fake breaking through by showing you some zerglings. It’s impossible to scout what his build is unless you sacrifice a zealot. So in this case:
1) Be careful of straight hydra. If you tech very fast, you will lose. So in my case even if my tech is late, I usually build a forge first.
2) You have to be careful of very fast muta or lurker, or some other risky strat
3) There is a possibility that a drone got out and is building a hatchery elsewhere on the map

- When you’ve forced a cancel but the zerg takes expansion later.
1) Don’t relax, thinking you have a huge advantage. Your opponent, after all, is zerg and you’re protoss.
2) You have to be very diligent in scouting—lair timing, whether hydra den goes up fast, whether he’s only zergling.

- Pool first or twin hatchery in main
1) Be careful of speedlings.
2) Be happy that you have somewhat of an advantage, and play conservatively.


VI. Conclusion

In Part 3, I summarized the “goals” into 4 parts, but in truth it can be stated in 1 sentence. “Do not allow the zerg to play normally, while using a 1 gate play (instead of a 2 gate play).”

In the first replay included, I am at 12 and the zerg is at 3. It shows, as explained in section 2, that adding a gate means that this build can go into a normal 2 gate build.

In the second replay, I’m at 3 and the zerg is at 9. This zerg player is a very good player. If I play him 10 times I might win once… however, here I don’t think he was aware of my style. He goes 12 hatch at natural but cancels when he sees my cheese rush. And his zerglings start running towards my base as soon as they come out. He runs by my 2 zealots and as a result suffers major losses to his drones. In his words, he said it was the first time he faced this kind of play and got flustered, so made a bad mistake. Probably he was busy microing to kill the probe first and moving that he didn’t see the additional zealot. Normally the two zealots would be killed then he could either go 3 hatchery, go lair in his main, or go straight hydra. Even if he could have done any of this, my build could be said to be a success.


i want bubbles the warrior monkey back
Cygnus
Profile Joined February 2004
United States845 Posts
March 31 2005 06:07 GMT
#2
6 gate! I love it!
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
March 31 2005 06:08 GMT
#3
good guide. I have done a similar build a few times. I'll try it out more. Basically i just went 7p instead of 6 so almost everything in the basic bo is ahead 1 psi. Usually After ill tech very fast to stargate.

his first goal is 2 fast zealots really...not just one.
goal 2, this build does well enough vs 12 hatch, but so does 9/10 gate.
goal 3 is good and often what happens.
goal 4, sure that comes with the build.

"words of caution" are useful.

if this is one's main pvz game....well i think its good to do every once and awhile but all time time, no.

do the reps work? And are any of the comments on the guide good on that pgr21 page?
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
MPXMX
Profile Joined December 2002
Canada4309 Posts
March 31 2005 06:12 GMT
#4
It's a very nice guide and I want to try this build now

Thank you plenty, Uhjoo. It must have taken a long time.

I had a few questions about this build come to me as i was reading, but I only remember one at this point: how is this build a success if the zerg goes 9 pool? He will seem to have a better economy and enough units to stop the zealots.
Jim
Profile Joined November 2003
Sweden1965 Posts
March 31 2005 06:12 GMT
#5
Cool, kind of like the 8 rax for terran. The zergs are feeling the heat.
To sup with the mighty ones, one must climb the path of daggers.
smurfingchobo
Profile Joined April 2004
833 Posts
March 31 2005 06:15 GMT
#6
Nice read. Thanks alot uhjoo
Teach me PvZ~
bubble_bobble
Profile Joined February 2005
Jamaica15 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-03-31 06:20:01
March 31 2005 06:19 GMT
#7
The games are 1.12b. The poor zergs don't seem to know what to do

Won't anyone think of the poor zergs?
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16987 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-03-31 06:21:49
March 31 2005 06:20 GMT
#8
Hello four pool.

EDIT: wow same time post And that was in responce to the above post, not uhjoo's.
Moderator
mrmin123 *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Korea (South)2971 Posts
March 31 2005 06:20 GMT
#9
that's pretty cool. i like the idea of being able to pressure even earlier than possible :O
Translator태양은 묘지위에 붉게 떠오르고 / 한낮에 찌는 더위는 나의 시련 일찌라!
splat
Profile Joined July 2003
Seychelles358 Posts
March 31 2005 06:40 GMT
#10
I use a similar build sometimes. However, instead of going 6pylon/6gate I like to do 6pylon/7gate. After making the pylon, send out that probe to scout. You lose a few seconds in making your first zealot, but the very early scout is good if the zerg is close and is going fast pool, so you can know as soon as possible that some kind of cheese is coming and react appropriately. On the other hand, if you go 6pylon/6gate you would have a better chance of successfully harassing a 9hatch attempt. This build is worth experimenting with if you haven't tried it.
What is your substance, whereof are you made, That millions of strange shadows on you tend?
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
March 31 2005 06:40 GMT
#11
hum i cant get the reps because if i just click on it comes up as a bwchart. I i click saveas it just does not work. any tips?

MPXMX, this guy looks at his build as a success agaist 9 pool because it is easy to stop the lings from getting into your base because of fast 2 zealot. I suppose i dont see this as any advantage, but breaking even. After they 9 pool youll have no clue whats going on so a fast forge may be in order with mabey a sair build or just basic citadel->archives.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
uhjoo
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)1740 Posts
March 31 2005 06:55 GMT
#12
Here are some of the comments (and the replies by the author), so some of your misgivings might be answered:

First, there were some comments about how the build was already posted in another site, and a few comments about how the author's won-loss record on West is amazing (He is 2548-489-21, probably a big pubber, but still impressive ).

1st Real Comment: This build still seems "hungry"

Author Response: Not true. If you go 8 pylon 10 gate then you must rest probe production at 15/17 to get 2 zealots at fast timing (17/17), but in this build there are 13 probes as well, and while you have spend less minerals, it's not a "hungry" build. A truly "hungry" build is something like 7 pylon, 8, 9 gate hardcore. Compared to a hardcore build where you continually make zealots and rest probe production, this is a "rich" build.

* Also, "hungry" is a relative term-- if you forced your opponent to sacrifice economy for troops as well, you're rich in comparison.


2nd Real Comment: This is easy for a zerg to counter. If you scout the 6 gate with a drone, gas rush and twin hatchery in main and you can rape the protoss.

Author Response: If the zerg goes two hatchery instead of pool first and actually even goes gas rush, the harass from the 1st zealot is incredibly effective. If the positions are 12/3 or 3/6, even 9/10 drone 2 hatchery is not very safe. Even with good micro, you'll lose at least 1 or 2 drones. Also, unless your positions are 12/3, the scouting drone arrives to scout the 6 gate AFTER the second hatchery starts going up. I understand the worry, but this build isn't as weak as you make it out to be. My thinking on this build is, "Unless starting positions are diagonal, a zerg who goes 12 hatchery pays a heavy price."
i want bubbles the warrior monkey back
FroST(TE)
Profile Joined September 2004
United States909 Posts
March 31 2005 06:55 GMT
#13

- When you’ve forced a cancel but the zerg takes expansion later.
1) Don’t relax, thinking you have a huge advantage. Your opponent, after all, is zerg and you’re protoss.


lol enough said ;p
PoorUser on LP
MPXMX
Profile Joined December 2002
Canada4309 Posts
March 31 2005 07:00 GMT
#14
I didn't die! Great success!! (Borat anyone?)

Uhjoo, the problem with TL strategy forum going "in this direction" is that, for example IntoTheNal_Ra, or whatever his nickname is, is a good player as far as I know. I believe I've seen his replays multiple times on ygclan, beside other gosus' names. So he has credibility... Here, a lot of the time people write out their ideas, they quickly get defeated by players with Names: i.e. This won't work because __.

And how can people know what really works until they''ve tried it at a very high level ? This is why recognized players should post more worthwhile content here. BigBalls, Twisted, and perhaps NoNy have done some of that. But on a larger scale, and particularly at this time there is little gosu activity, little credibility, and little o r i g i n a l, and i n t e r e s t i n g content here

2 cents
uhjoo
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)1740 Posts
March 31 2005 07:04 GMT
#15
On March 31 2005 15:40 Knickknack wrote:
MPXMX, this guy looks at his build as a success agaist 9 pool because it is easy to stop the lings from getting into your base because of fast 2 zealot. I suppose i dont see this as any advantage, but breaking even. After they 9 pool youll have no clue whats going on so a fast forge may be in order with mabey a sair build or just basic citadel->archives.


I'm not so sure... as a zerg when you go 9 pool, you've only really succeeded when you've hurt him with your early lings or harassed him enough to buy time to expand and make drones. Usually this is achieved by getting into the toss's base, because especially in close positions, the timing is such that only 1 zealot is out. Using this build 2 zealots are out by the time lings get to your ramp.

Also, the real plan for this build is to safely go 1 gate and making sure the zerg taking his expo is late, while pressuring him early. If the zerg went 9 pool and made zerglings as well, then effectively you've succeeded in delaying his expo and going 1 gate tech "safely."

However, I do think that pool first would definitely be the most effective build against this 6 gate build.
i want bubbles the warrior monkey back
garandou
Profile Joined October 2004
Germany518 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-03-31 07:20:49
March 31 2005 07:11 GMT
#16
omg don't let the z users see this thread, I was finally winning a few pvz on pgt since I started using a similar build a few days ago T_T

Great guide, thanks for the translation :D
MPXMX
Profile Joined December 2002
Canada4309 Posts
March 31 2005 07:11 GMT
#17
CAUTION: This build may suck on maps like Incubus, Luna, Bladestorm & co. Writer not liable for knuckle injuries resulted from using this build.
uhjoo
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)1740 Posts
March 31 2005 07:12 GMT
#18
On March 31 2005 16:00 MPXMX wrote:
I didn't die! Great success!! (Borat anyone?)

Uhjoo, the problem with TL strategy forum going "in this direction" is that, for example IntoTheNal_Ra, or whatever his nickname is, is a good player as far as I know. I believe I've seen his replays multiple times on ygclan, beside other gosus' names. So he has credibility... Here, a lot of the time people write out their ideas, they quickly get defeated by players with Names: i.e. This won't work because __.

And how can people know what really works until they''ve tried it at a very high level ? This is why recognized players should post more worthwhile content here. BigBalls, Twisted, and perhaps NoNy have done some of that. But on a larger scale, and particularly at this time there is little gosu activity, little credibility, and little o r i g i n a l, and i n t e r e s t i n g content here

2 cents


I don't agree with this although I understand your way of thinking. The main thing is getting rid of the mindset (incredibly shortsighted mindset, imho) that you can only understand the game if you're good at it. Sometimes understanding the game is very different from being good at it-- the best strategists aren't necessarily the best players. For example, I'm pretty much a suck player but I think I understand the game better than my skills would suggest. And to be honest, most pros don't come up with most of the strategies they use-- they borrow from other players and they copy extensively from amateurs. Of course it's a great advantage if you are both strategically saavy and skilled (like Garimto, Nal_rA or Boxer) but this is a rare combination.

But I also agree that a strat needs to be tried out at a relatively high level a number of times to be valid. Of course I'm not proposing complete noobs who propose building mass bunkers in tvt :-P to be TLT's "strategic leaders," but I also think given a certain degree of skill, you can make some kick ass strategies

My 2 won~
i want bubbles the warrior monkey back
MPXMX
Profile Joined December 2002
Canada4309 Posts
March 31 2005 07:18 GMT
#19
Ditto
GuYuTe-
Profile Joined February 2005
United States550 Posts
March 31 2005 07:20 GMT
#20
Looks good to me but I prefer a "no 9th probe" build. Pylon on 8 and no 9th probe gives you 2 gate fast rush w/out sacrificing too much econ. This is definitley my prefered proxy build.
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