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Korea (South)1740 Posts
This is an interesting strat I read on pgr21, authored by one IntotheNal_rA-- not particularly revolutionary (this strat has been around for awhile) but I thought it was particularly well written so I thought I'd translate it (very roughly, only the very important parts) and see what you gosus thought. The original post is here:
http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1236
At the top of the page there are also two replays (unfortunately probably not 1.12, although I'm not sure) demonstrating the build at the top of the page.
Even if you don't like this build, I hope you appreciate the kind of effort this guy put into writing this guide-- I sort of hope TL strategy forum could also go in this direction, with people actually putting in alot of time in explaining their build after they KNOW it works.
Cheers!
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Hello, I’m a protoss user going by the ID IntotheNal_rA. I’m writing this to introduce a build I’ve used almost everyday for the past year—a build that has become something of my own trademark build.
I. How I came to make this build
Normally in a pvz, a protoss using a 1-gate build always sends a probe to scout and almost always sends 1 zealot as harass. The probe scouts the zerg’s position, delays pool or hatchery placement, and harasses drones. And the 1 zealot, once it arrives, does its best to hunt drones, avoid zerglings and must stay alive as long as possible to buy time to tech and to prevent zerglings from immediately countering.
As a protoss user, I did the same thing as above. I usually built a pylon 7-8, gate 9-10, and the 1 zealot from this build would achieve, at best, the results above (but no better.) However, even if I was able to achieve everything above, the zerg would comfortably go 3 hatchery, and the rest of the game would be difficult. Even if I won, the game would always be difficult. 2-gate hardcore zealots were even more difficult, and double nexus was always risky and not safe enough...
For me, the solution was “fastest 1st zealot as possible” and “If the zerg starts out by taking his natural, destroy it or force a cancel with a cheese rush”.
So for awhile I played with a 6pylon/7gate build, but one day I tried a 6 pylon 6 gate build and learned that this was very effective. The first zealot obviously comes out much faster, and even though my probe production was cut, I felt “richer.” So from that point on I’ve been using this build continually.
II. Introducing this build
6 Pylon 6 gate after 150. mins
The probe which built the gate scouts
Probes until 9/17 Gate finishes, 1st zealot
Probes until 13/17 2nd zealot
Probes until 16/17 or 17/17 2nd pylon
This is the basic build, no matter your starting location.
III. The goals of the build?
1) Fast zealot
2) Destroy or force a cancel of risky fast hatchery at natural with a cheese rush
3) Force zergling production
4) Economic stability due to continual probe production after gateway (to be more exact, this is not a hungry build)
This is the summary. Now I will explain the logic behind each of these goals.
1) No explanation necessary…
2) If the starting positions are 2/8 on lost temple for instance, unless the zerg goes 9 hatchery, the zerg must either cancel the hatch or must use his drones and buy time until his zerglings come out. However, even this option of delaying is only a possibility if he went 10 hatchery or so.
12 hatchery is very weak against my build. Even if all the drones come out to buy time, he will be hurt too much, and even if he cancels, there are 2 zealots and a probe to block the ramp when his zerglings come out. In a very short time the 3rd zealot arrives and in the meantime the protoss will have either teched or have gotten a forge for +1 ups… so as zerg 12 hatchery expanding is walking right into a trap.
3) Although the zerg doesn’t always make many zerglings, it is usually how zergs react if they scout the 6 gateway build. Afterwards zergs usually go 2 hatchery at their main, break the zealot hold on their ramp, and go 3 hatchery afterwards.
4) Probe production is constant after the gateway is built. Although this is obviously not a “rich” build, it isn’t particularly “hungry.” If this build works as it should, the result is that the protoss is about as rich as an 8 pylon 10 gate 1-gate build, and the zerg has built zerglings where he would normally have been making drones or going 3 hatchery. If not, they tend to go straight hydra, or even 2 hatch lair in their main.
IV. Variations depending on different starting positions or different responses by the zerg (“Execution”)
I’ll take starting at 12 as an example.
If you start at 12 and the zerg starts at 3, normally you will know by the scouting overlord. The most conservative build is to add a gateway after the initial build order in section 2 above. Because the first zealot comes out fast, any 4-9 pool zergling rush can be stopped very easily. In the case that the zerg goes 12 pool, it is possible to hunt drones with the first zealot. If the zerg goes 2 hatchery in main (9-10-11 drone), it’s safe to say you can catch 1-2 drones unless the zerg has superb micro. Needless to say, 12 twin hatchery is even worse for the zerg.
For ramp hatchery, hatchery under the ramp, or hatchery at the natural, it will be difficult to build because of the scouting probe but even if it gets built, you can simply destroy it with a cheese rush (**** it is good to leave at least 4-5 probes at your main when you do this cheese rush*****)
No matter what the zerg’s response is, you can just play normally after your second gateway is built, and the overall result is that you will in the end still have 2 gates, but will be better off than if you went a standard 8 pylon 10 gate 11 gate build.
If the zerg is at 9, pay more attention to your scouting probe, to harass more effectively and to prevent the zerg from expanding fast to his natural. If you delay the hatchery to around 12 drone hatchery timing, let him start the hatchery, since he won’t be able to finish it anyhow. But if he still hasn’t build a hatchery at around that timing, it means he went pool first. If you’ve forced him to go pool first, your position isn’t bad, your start isn’t bad… and as protoss you can say you’ve succeeded in the early game.
In the case that the zerg goes pool first, if the zerg takes his expansion without making zerglings, the protoss is at a disadvantage. So make sure to continue to harass the drone coming out to build the hatchery. If no drone comes out to build at his natural, that means he either is going twin hatchery in main or makes zergling first and then will take his expansion. In this case, it’s a good idea to hide your 1st zealot in a corner in his main. You’re faking as if your second zealot is actually your first zealot.
Finally, your scouting probe goes to 9 and there’s only an overlord… that means he’s at 6. In this case you can’t harass him from taking his natural. Once you arrive it’s already building. As soon as you see him building, leave 4-5 probes at your main and cheese rush. Once the zerg sees this with his overlord or drones, he will cancel the hatchery or bring out 5-6 drones. However…
The first zealot arrives very quickly. Unless the zerg is very skilled it is impossible to stop this cheese rush. If the zerg is thinking “I went 9 hatch to safely expand so I can stop it,” he’s screwed. Either he will lose his hatchery, or will take a lot of damage trying to protect it. However, as protoss you must be very careful. A fast hatchery build like 9 hatchery is difficult to destroy, and in the process you may lose all of your attacking probes. The difference between making sure your probes can return alive and losing them all is huge. You need to judge when you’ve done enough damage.
If your starting point is at 3, there isn’t much difference from if you start at 12. However, if the zerg starts at 9, it’s best that you play more conservatively than when you start at 12 and he is at 6. And if he is at 6, you can play more aggressively than when you start at 12 and he is at 9. And of course there’s a possibility he might be at 12 (the scouting overlord can avoid being seen, unlike when you are at 12 and he is at 3)
V. Playing after the early game
To be honest there’s no one answer. If I had a clear answer I wouldn’t be writing this, I’d probably be practicing in a proteam -_-
However from my experience I will note a few words of caution:
- When you’ve forced a cancel and have blocked ramp with zealots:
Either the zerg will try to break through with zerglings or will fake breaking through by showing you some zerglings. It’s impossible to scout what his build is unless you sacrifice a zealot. So in this case:
1) Be careful of straight hydra. If you tech very fast, you will lose. So in my case even if my tech is late, I usually build a forge first.
2) You have to be careful of very fast muta or lurker, or some other risky strat
3) There is a possibility that a drone got out and is building a hatchery elsewhere on the map
- When you’ve forced a cancel but the zerg takes expansion later.
1) Don’t relax, thinking you have a huge advantage. Your opponent, after all, is zerg and you’re protoss.
2) You have to be very diligent in scouting—lair timing, whether hydra den goes up fast, whether he’s only zergling.
- Pool first or twin hatchery in main
1) Be careful of speedlings.
2) Be happy that you have somewhat of an advantage, and play conservatively.
VI. Conclusion
In Part 3, I summarized the “goals” into 4 parts, but in truth it can be stated in 1 sentence. “Do not allow the zerg to play normally, while using a 1 gate play (instead of a 2 gate play).”
In the first replay included, I am at 12 and the zerg is at 3. It shows, as explained in section 2, that adding a gate means that this build can go into a normal 2 gate build.
In the second replay, I’m at 3 and the zerg is at 9. This zerg player is a very good player. If I play him 10 times I might win once… however, here I don’t think he was aware of my style. He goes 12 hatch at natural but cancels when he sees my cheese rush. And his zerglings start running towards my base as soon as they come out. He runs by my 2 zealots and as a result suffers major losses to his drones. In his words, he said it was the first time he faced this kind of play and got flustered, so made a bad mistake. Probably he was busy microing to kill the probe first and moving that he didn’t see the additional zealot. Normally the two zealots would be killed then he could either go 3 hatchery, go lair in his main, or go straight hydra. Even if he could have done any of this, my build could be said to be a success.
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6 gate! I love it! 
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good guide. I have done a similar build a few times. I'll try it out more. Basically i just went 7p instead of 6 so almost everything in the basic bo is ahead 1 psi. Usually After ill tech very fast to stargate.
his first goal is 2 fast zealots really...not just one.
goal 2, this build does well enough vs 12 hatch, but so does 9/10 gate.
goal 3 is good and often what happens.
goal 4, sure that comes with the build.
"words of caution" are useful.
if this is one's main pvz game....well i think its good to do every once and awhile but all time time, no.
do the reps work? And are any of the comments on the guide good on that pgr21 page?
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It's a very nice guide and I want to try this build now
Thank you plenty, Uhjoo. It must have taken a long time.
I had a few questions about this build come to me as i was reading, but I only remember one at this point: how is this build a success if the zerg goes 9 pool? He will seem to have a better economy and enough units to stop the zealots.
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Cool, kind of like the 8 rax for terran. The zergs are feeling the heat.
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Nice read. Thanks alot uhjoo
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The games are 1.12b. The poor zergs don't seem to know what to do 
Won't anyone think of the poor zergs?
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16987 Posts
Hello four pool.
EDIT: wow same time post  And that was in responce to the above post, not uhjoo's.
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
that's pretty cool. i like the idea of being able to pressure even earlier than possible :O
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I use a similar build sometimes. However, instead of going 6pylon/6gate I like to do 6pylon/7gate. After making the pylon, send out that probe to scout. You lose a few seconds in making your first zealot, but the very early scout is good if the zerg is close and is going fast pool, so you can know as soon as possible that some kind of cheese is coming and react appropriately. On the other hand, if you go 6pylon/6gate you would have a better chance of successfully harassing a 9hatch attempt. This build is worth experimenting with if you haven't tried it.
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hum i cant get the reps because if i just click on it comes up as a bwchart. I i click saveas it just does not work. any tips?
MPXMX, this guy looks at his build as a success agaist 9 pool because it is easy to stop the lings from getting into your base because of fast 2 zealot. I suppose i dont see this as any advantage, but breaking even. After they 9 pool youll have no clue whats going on so a fast forge may be in order with mabey a sair build or just basic citadel->archives.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
Here are some of the comments (and the replies by the author), so some of your misgivings might be answered:
First, there were some comments about how the build was already posted in another site, and a few comments about how the author's won-loss record on West is amazing (He is 2548-489-21, probably a big pubber, but still impressive ).
1st Real Comment: This build still seems "hungry"
Author Response: Not true. If you go 8 pylon 10 gate then you must rest probe production at 15/17 to get 2 zealots at fast timing (17/17), but in this build there are 13 probes as well, and while you have spend less minerals, it's not a "hungry" build. A truly "hungry" build is something like 7 pylon, 8, 9 gate hardcore. Compared to a hardcore build where you continually make zealots and rest probe production, this is a "rich" build.
* Also, "hungry" is a relative term-- if you forced your opponent to sacrifice economy for troops as well, you're rich in comparison.
2nd Real Comment: This is easy for a zerg to counter. If you scout the 6 gate with a drone, gas rush and twin hatchery in main and you can rape the protoss.
Author Response: If the zerg goes two hatchery instead of pool first and actually even goes gas rush, the harass from the 1st zealot is incredibly effective. If the positions are 12/3 or 3/6, even 9/10 drone 2 hatchery is not very safe. Even with good micro, you'll lose at least 1 or 2 drones. Also, unless your positions are 12/3, the scouting drone arrives to scout the 6 gate AFTER the second hatchery starts going up. I understand the worry, but this build isn't as weak as you make it out to be. My thinking on this build is, "Unless starting positions are diagonal, a zerg who goes 12 hatchery pays a heavy price."
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- When you’ve forced a cancel but the zerg takes expansion later.
1) Don’t relax, thinking you have a huge advantage. Your opponent, after all, is zerg and you’re protoss.
lol enough said ;p
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I didn't die! Great success!! (Borat anyone?)
Uhjoo, the problem with TL strategy forum going "in this direction" is that, for example IntoTheNal_Ra, or whatever his nickname is, is a good player as far as I know. I believe I've seen his replays multiple times on ygclan, beside other gosus' names. So he has credibility... Here, a lot of the time people write out their ideas, they quickly get defeated by players with Names: i.e. This won't work because __.
And how can people know what really works until they''ve tried it at a very high level ? This is why recognized players should post more worthwhile content here. BigBalls, Twisted, and perhaps NoNy have done some of that. But on a larger scale, and particularly at this time there is little gosu activity, little credibility, and little o r i g i n a l, and i n t e r e s t i n g content here
2 cents
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On March 31 2005 15:40 Knickknack wrote:
MPXMX, this guy looks at his build as a success agaist 9 pool because it is easy to stop the lings from getting into your base because of fast 2 zealot. I suppose i dont see this as any advantage, but breaking even. After they 9 pool youll have no clue whats going on so a fast forge may be in order with mabey a sair build or just basic citadel->archives.
I'm not so sure... as a zerg when you go 9 pool, you've only really succeeded when you've hurt him with your early lings or harassed him enough to buy time to expand and make drones. Usually this is achieved by getting into the toss's base, because especially in close positions, the timing is such that only 1 zealot is out. Using this build 2 zealots are out by the time lings get to your ramp.
Also, the real plan for this build is to safely go 1 gate and making sure the zerg taking his expo is late, while pressuring him early. If the zerg went 9 pool and made zerglings as well, then effectively you've succeeded in delaying his expo and going 1 gate tech "safely."
However, I do think that pool first would definitely be the most effective build against this 6 gate build.
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omg don't let the z users see this thread, I was finally winning a few pvz on pgt since I started using a similar build a few days ago T_T
Great guide, thanks for the translation :D
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CAUTION: This build may suck on maps like Incubus, Luna, Bladestorm & co. Writer not liable for knuckle injuries resulted from using this build.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On March 31 2005 16:00 MPXMX wrote:I didn't die! Great success!! (Borat anyone?) Uhjoo, the problem with TL strategy forum going "in this direction" is that, for example IntoTheNal_Ra, or whatever his nickname is, is a good player as far as I know. I believe I've seen his replays multiple times on ygclan, beside other gosus' names. So he has credibility... Here, a lot of the time people write out their ideas, they quickly get defeated by players with Names: i.e. This won't work because __. And how can people know what really works until they''ve tried it at a very high level ? This is why recognized players should post more worthwhile content here. BigBalls, Twisted, and perhaps NoNy have done some of that. But on a larger scale, and particularly at this time there is little gosu activity, little credibility, and little o r i g i n a l, and i n t e r e s t i n g content here 2 cents
I don't agree with this although I understand your way of thinking. The main thing is getting rid of the mindset (incredibly shortsighted mindset, imho) that you can only understand the game if you're good at it. Sometimes understanding the game is very different from being good at it-- the best strategists aren't necessarily the best players. For example, I'm pretty much a suck player but I think I understand the game better than my skills would suggest. And to be honest, most pros don't come up with most of the strategies they use-- they borrow from other players and they copy extensively from amateurs. Of course it's a great advantage if you are both strategically saavy and skilled (like Garimto, Nal_rA or Boxer) but this is a rare combination.
But I also agree that a strat needs to be tried out at a relatively high level a number of times to be valid. Of course I'm not proposing complete noobs who propose building mass bunkers in tvt :-P to be TLT's "strategic leaders," but I also think given a certain degree of skill, you can make some kick ass strategies
My 2 won~
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Looks good to me but I prefer a "no 9th probe" build. Pylon on 8 and no 9th probe gives you 2 gate fast rush w/out sacrificing too much econ. This is definitley my prefered proxy build.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On March 31 2005 16:11 MPXMX wrote:
CAUTION: This build may suck on maps like Incubus, Luna, Bladestorm & co. Writer not liable for knuckle injuries resulted from using this build.
I completely agree this build seems 100% matched for LT. But I'd also like to hear your reasoning why it wouldn't work so well for those other maps you mentioned.
I could understand why this build loses its effectiveness on bladestorm (as z taking mineral only is as safe as going twin hatch in main). I'd also imagine it's riskier on maps without ramps like Incubus but even on Incubus, esp if you're across from each other, I don't see it as being that much worse--> you can narrow your choke with good gateway placement and play normally, and if the Z commits to mass lings, you can go 2 gate or go fast forge o_o
Why would it not work on Luna?
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hey sweet idea.
I wonder why i never thought of this before?
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Well I just think as soon as your first zeals are fended off (and they will be because they are coming from just 1 gate) mass speed lings will break your choke (it's too wide) before your 2nd gate kicks in and 1 gate won't supply enough guys to defend once the choke is broken. And forge and cannons will be an expensive impediment with this poor build. It can work if zerg does the wrong things, is what I think.
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I'm not so sure... as a zerg when you go 9 pool, you've only really succeeded when you've hurt him with your early lings or harassed him enough to buy time to expand and make drones. Usually this is achieved by getting into the toss's base, because especially in close positions, the timing is such that only 1 zealot is out. Using this build 2 zealots are out by the time lings get to your ramp.
Also, the real plan for this build is to safely go 1 gate and making sure the zerg taking his expo is late, while pressuring him early. If the zerg went 9 pool and made zerglings as well, then effectively you've succeeded in delaying his expo and going 1 gate tech "safely."
However, I do think that pool first would definitely be the most effective build against this 6 gate build. I believe we basically agree. if the zerg goes 9 pool i think the tempo of the game is still in the zergs control even though the zerg was not able to get into the toss player base. VS 9 pool you dont really pressure early or delay his expo. He pressures and you defend well, while his pressure has him not expoing. I wonder about the timing of a quick change to muta or lurk off of 9 pool... But, if you tech too hard mass ling or a hydra switch could take you down.
Gosu players get gosu by playing a ton, not by musing over different strategies, for the most part, right? In a kingdom interview he was taking about his game vs junwi(i think) in which he mind controls some ultras. He said that he figured that was good because it was effectively a +2 for him. Taking away a unit from the opponent and giving him one. THIS IS OBVIOUS. That does not really tell any real good reason why that was good (if it actually was). In my experience, 'good' players tend to give the best insight. If 'gosu' players post some advice its usually in the "it works" vein and they do not give any reasons why.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On March 31 2005 16:32 MPXMX wrote:
Well I just think as soon as your first zeals are fended off (and they will be because they are coming from just 1 gate) mass speed lings will break your choke (it's too wide) before your 2nd gate kicks in and 1 gate won't supply enough guys to defend once the choke is broken. And forge and cannons will be an expensive impediment with this poor build. It can work if zerg does the wrong things, is what I think.
I think you may be right... I think I'll try this out on some unsuspecting fool to test how safe it is.
Fakesteve where AAARRRRRRRRE youuuuuuu
<3<3
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On March 31 2005 16:33 Knickknack wrote:
I believe we basically agree. if the zerg goes 9 pool i think the tempo of the game is still in the zergs control even though the zerg was not able to get into the toss player base. VS 9 pool you dont really pressure early or delay his expo. He pressures and you defend well, while his pressure has him not expoing. I wonder about the timing of a quick change to muta or lurk off of 9 pool... But, if you tech too hard mass ling or a hydra switch could take you down.
Yes, we do basically agree. But I suppose I consider it a victory (as does the author) that the zerg is forced to make essentially useless lings early and that he takes his natural much later and that he makes drones later. In my experience, it's just soooo hard to win against a zerg who takes his natural expo safely and doesn't get harassed until corsairs or something. The fact a zerg has to consider going tech or pure hydra from 1 base means that in a sense the toss is dictating play, narrowing the z's options.
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that was well written and worth a try
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as i was reading the headline i thought u mean 1gate fe --> 6gate zeal only ^^;
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at first glance i thought it meant make 6 gates, hit zzzzzzzzzzzz and hope for luck
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in my opinion 7 gate is better because you get your zealot at about the same time as 6 and you get an extra probe but all these builds are pretty much the same.
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also the problem with these types of builds is they will be beaten by a 9 pool.
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Uhjoo, if he's unsuspecting, that may defeat the point of testing
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my first attempt and its far positions and the zerg does 12pool->hatch->mass lings so naturally i lose...
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On March 31 2005 16:00 MPXMX wrote:I didn't die! Great success!! (Borat anyone?) Uhjoo, the problem with TL strategy forum going "in this direction" is that, for example IntoTheNal_Ra, or whatever his nickname is, is a good player as far as I know. I believe I've seen his replays multiple times on ygclan, beside other gosus' names. So he has credibility... Here, a lot of the time people write out their ideas, they quickly get defeated by players with Names: i.e. This won't work because __. And how can people know what really works until they''ve tried it at a very high level ? This is why recognized players should post more worthwhile content here. BigBalls, Twisted, and perhaps NoNy have done some of that. But on a larger scale, and particularly at this time there is little gosu activity, little credibility, and little o r i g i n a l, and i n t e r e s t i n g content here 2 cents
I agree with you to a point, but i also disagree with you. I believe the idea that uhjoo said will work. Many of these ideas chobos/not gosus post are usefull in some situations. For all strategies there are strengths and weaknesses.
I believe that if people post an idea, other people (better will give reasons why or why wont it work. Many times when the people with names say it wont work they also give something that will work. If the author of the post is able to incorporate the comments into his original strategy then it will be even better. At the bottom of the strats there could also be a pros and cons of the strat kind of thing.
Just my 2 cents
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I prefer to get 7 gates, usually it shocks the zerg unless they have mutalisks because no ground army is gonna stop 7 gates
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1 lurk?
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On March 31 2005 14:30 uhjoo wrote:
1) Don’t relax, thinking you have a huge advantage. Your opponent, after all, is zerg and you’re protoss.
This one is golden. Should be added to TL all stars quotes.
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Canada9720 Posts
On March 31 2005 18:18 EchoOfRain wrote:
also the problem with these types of builds is they will be beaten by a 9 pool.
Did you read any part of the first page?
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On April 01 2005 05:56 CTStalker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2005 18:18 EchoOfRain wrote:
also the problem with these types of builds is they will be beaten by a 9 pool. Did you read any part of the first page?
The zealot from a 6/6 build comes out slightly earlier than the 6 lings from a 9pool. Your zealot rush is effectively stopped before it had even started. The zerg player is now free to do whatever he wants as he has complete control over what the protoss player does at this point. There is more to the 9pool than just the rush..
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Canada9720 Posts
I suppose that's true, but the z would have the same control over you as when you 9/10, except that this way you're safer against the rush.
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I think when you 9/10 vs 9 pool, you get the better cut of the deal. Zerg won't be able to keep up lings with your zeal numbers and will probably have to make sunkens and not be able to expand too quickly.
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Great. That is like 8 rax terran and 4pool zerg. Finally some protoss rush 
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Yes and it took a genius to figure it out
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with a build like this you might as well proxy..
at least i think so.
If he 12 pools you're fucked anyway
might as well make sure u do as much damage as possible vs the expo build.
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bad strat, too much sacrifice on economy just to get 1 zealot faster.. your economy will be very much affected... and your 2nd gate will be much too late unless you cut probe production... and besides a single zealot can't do that much against a decent zerg(he will just stack his drones at one mineral patch and u cant kill a single drone while he is waiting for his lings to come out) plus you only have 1 gate for reinforcement coz your 2nd gate is late... and the zerg has just plenty of time to react to your stupid build(esp if your bases are far from each other)...
you know why this only works tvz bec of the bunker, you can easily repair it.. but zealots? never! and 1 more thing scvs life is a lot higher so that cheese rush pvz is 99.9% ineffective... just considering all the travelling time...
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I love the way people answer a huge strategy guide with one or two sentences. You aren't fucked vs nine pool as it's low economy build anyways and if he tries to gay you with a four pool then you own his ass. Vs nine pool you don't have the strength you do with a later gateway but you're a long way from losing the game and you will have chances, if this was the only build worth using everyone would be doing nothing but this right? It's just an idea...
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i've done this but with 5 gat ... i mean i find it pretty hard with 6 :ayz:
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
On April 01 2005 13:07 stimpack[pG] wrote:
bad strat, too much sacrifice on economy just to get 1 zealot faster.. your economy will be very much affected... and your 2nd gate will be much too late unless you cut probe production... and besides a single zealot can't do that much against a decent zerg(he will just stack his drones at one mineral patch and u cant kill a single drone while he is waiting for his lings to come out) plus you only have 1 gate for reinforcement coz your 2nd gate is late... and the zerg has just plenty of time to react to your stupid build(esp if your bases are far from each other)...
you know why this only works tvz bec of the bunker, you can easily repair it.. but zealots? never! and 1 more thing scvs life is a lot higher so that cheese rush pvz is 99.9% ineffective... just considering all the travelling time...
did you watch the replays before replying?
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times 1st zeal pops out:
5p5g=2:02
6p6g=2:06
7p7g=2:12
To sum up:
this can be very effective vs a 12 hatch build.
Somewhat effective agaist a early hatch.
12pool your behind significantly.
Break even against a 9pool.
beats 4pool.
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I'll be checking the replay very soon but I think a 9 overlord 9 pool build would counter it? The build I mentioned usually allows me to ling all the way to 11 supply where I have money for a hatchery and ling again until 15 supply for a 3rd hatchery. I'll edit once I watch the replays.
[Edit] I still stand on my original post. I'm pretty sure that 9 overlord 9 pool would counter the initial zealot pressure since there is no hatchery to make him cancel that early.
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On April 01 2005 13:07 stimpack[pG] wrote:
bad strat, too much sacrifice on economy just to get 1 zealot faster.. your economy will be very much affected... and your 2nd gate will be much too late unless you cut probe production... and besides a single zealot can't do that much against a decent zerg(he will just stack his drones at one mineral patch and u cant kill a single drone while he is waiting for his lings to come out) plus you only have 1 gate for reinforcement coz your 2nd gate is late... and the zerg has just plenty of time to react to your stupid build(esp if your bases are far from each other)...
you know why this only works tvz bec of the bunker, you can easily repair it.. but zealots? never! and 1 more thing scvs life is a lot higher so that cheese rush pvz is 99.9% ineffective... just considering all the travelling time...
I disagree
After trying the strat once...it really feels not-so-bad for your eco. also getting one zeal+probe to z mineralline fast does cost the zerg a lot.Just trying to run away with drones causes enough loss of mining-time so thats just stupid, so you have to try to attack the zealot and run wounded drones away etc. However a skilled protoss most likely get a few kills. The author just calims its needed to kill about 2 drones to do decent damaga too, and thats really possible to do.
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On April 01 2005 07:23 jtan wrote:Great. That is like 8 rax terran and 4pool zerg. Finally some protoss rush
omg, you didnt ever figure out this build?
on the other hand many protoss players 1 year ago made only zealots+goons and forgot observers...
and nal_ra had to come and show them how to play
Im really shocked that you never thought of this.
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The greatest value of the build appears to be psychological, simply because, it generally ruins any of the initial plans of the zerg and messes up the zergs drone timing, which I have noticed seems to be the most effective thing to do to a zerg disrupt there drone timing.
While I think about it how does this compare at killing/making zerg cancel expo with the gate/cannon rush build
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So, have the zergs figured out the most effective counter yet? I really dont wanna get screwed over by this :-p
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just scout with 9th drone and do 11 pool or so..earlier if scouted earlier. 1 sunk in main to be safe. if toss does no damage then id say hes in for a bad way since his tech is SLOW.
ie. zerg might not win early game, but you could very well be digging a mid game grave. lurk contain with nat+2nd nat or main and your toast. toss wont be able to get an expo up +cannons in time on lt to stop that. Unless he does alot of lots with slow tech and zerg doesnt respond correctly.
seems ok early game, poor mid game vs skilled players.
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On April 02 2005 11:54 8882 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2005 07:23 jtan wrote:Great. That is like 8 rax terran and 4pool zerg. Finally some protoss rush omg, you didnt ever figure out this build? on the other hand many protoss players 1 year ago made only zealots+goons and forgot observers... and nal_ra had to come and show them how to play Im really shocked that you never thought of this.
lol
yes
but I also thought of other stupid strats, this is like more or less proven useful now
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On April 03 2005 18:39 maleorderbride wrote:
seems ok early game, poor mid game vs skilled players.
Only if they aren't trying to fast expo or gay you with some kind of rush and how many zergs do you play who don't do one of those two things? Lateish pool first is about the only thing that doesn't give at least equal chances both sides and in practice not that many zergs stick with a solid pool/hatch build. The main point of the build is not having to worry so much about being disadvantaged from the start by a fast expand or killed completely by a four/five pool and you can't balance that with being good vs solid play, hardly anyone plays eleven or twelve pool anyways.
EDIT: Not saying this strat is unbeatable or whatever but for ladder play it's as good as anything else.
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this is pretty good opening..
here is a good example for people of what u can do with this opening even when not successful with the first few zealots
HyoJa[FlaSh] vs GGPlay[GsP]
although ultimately unsuccessful this time.. I think that is a good example of what u can do with 6 gate
thx to yg
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Dude starofnc, the protoss got OWNED after failing with the first zlots.
The zerg was so ahead economically, the shuttle/reaver harrass and that attack (which killed the mineral hatch) was not nearly enough to balance the game.
That replay shows the weakness of the 6 gate build, not the strength.
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United States37500 Posts
... try not to post in six month old threads if you don't have anything progressive to contribute.
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it worked before, doesn't work much now
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was used a lot by sYs
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in 2v2 i've found that 6gate and 9 pool pwn. it's so gay though...
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zerg goes 12 pool and its auto lose for toss
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I think 9/10 gate is alot more stronger and economically efficient than a risky as hell 6 gate o.O, but hell if you do not believe so, flame me in a constructive manner please
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i do this sometimes and turn it into a fast expo build . 6 pylon 6 gate pylon outside of main. do 6 gate probes, zeal when gate finishes 1-2 probes forge 1 cannon. go harras with zeal+scout probe. If i fear z will counter back with many lings i add another cannon or zealot or w/e. This is an effective build tho. 
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Pool first is gg and 12hatch main or 11 hatch main across the map is gg as well (just like that replay). Rapes the shit out of hatch first expo though, which is the point of doing this build.
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vs fe expansion its amazing ..
if your control is awesome, this strat is pretty good..
its pretty hard and very risk to play it successfull, imho..
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I remember there was a rep of Eriador(P) vs MiG.Scout(Z). And Scout won vs 6p7g pretty easily just by making pool first
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Sorry to revive a new thread, but I've always sucked pvz, so now I'm doing this on alot of maps, and even against protoss on calm breeze (that didn't work so well...) Here's what I think of it.
On Bladestorm (not really better or worse on this map; it's big, so your zealots have to walk, but it's big, so he's going to open with expo alot)
It's an amazing build. From the guide, I'm not sure how many probes he suggests rushing, but I usually only do 3 + my scouting one. If he expands... there's no way to stop it. Period. You kill the hatch or he cancels it. If he cancels it he better build a colony otherwise GG. If he builds a colony you relax on his choke, add gas and forge, contain him, and perhaps even start a cannon contain... but not unless he doesn't have a high ling count. If he does, he'll drone drill. So I suggest you contain for as long as possible and cannon your main with two cannons, add cyb, and expand to your mineral only. From there... you've basically won. If your zealots scouted fast lair before you ran back to your base you add stargate for muta protection and scouting. If you see three hatch perhaps a third cannon (when you retreat there's a good chance your lots will be run down so sometimes you'll have to block your choke with probes). Just keep teching and wait to win. Such a great build.
Also if he cancel hatch you could second gate later forge and kill the eventual mineral only expo he'll throw down.
So sweet to have zergs go "is this a joke? 5 gate?"
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EPT
