EPTSurprisingly Normal Mini Mafia III
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
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JeeJee
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Already some serious mudslinging going on, mataza you don't need to be so defensive and martyring yourself, I hate it when people do that. It makes analysis post deaths a lot more difficult if someone attacks person A, and instead of pointing out the flaws in their attack, A just goes "fine lynch me noob, see what i flip". Point out the flaws in Varp's attack instead. His whole attack is based on your shitty hypothetical wifom argument and is just a way to say "i dont like this type of argument". Correct me if I'm wrong varp  Also, why the hell would someone claim vet? Dumbest thing I've ever read. Claim you're vet if you've lost one life, fine. Not right up front. | ||
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JeeJee
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In fact, I much prefer seeing how people react to being put up as a candidate Youngminii, you don't see the downsides outweighing advantages of vet claim d1? ok, what are the advantages? | ||
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Let's back up a moment. 2 situations: -vet claim, mafia ignores -vet claim, mafia rb+kill 2 is in fact a bad situation because, fine, we know there's a rb in the game. However, without the vet claim, if mafia decides to roleblock someone, we'd know anyway (and chances are, they would have wasted their roleblock instead of using it well). Because let's face it, if you are roleblocked, you better be telling us this asap. 1 isn't even a good situation either, because mafia won't be potentially wasting a hit on a vet. if they hit a vet unexpectedly, the vet can claim then (by "i was hit last night", not necessarily by anything specific). At that point, that person is basically a confirmed townie, and mafia will have to think about whether they should hit them again since there may be a doc on them now. And now we have your 'pillar' and we have a day's advantage again, i don't see the point. | ||
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On June 05 2011 03:44 youngminii wrote: Advantage: Town gets a centralised 'voice' that can help coordinate us. Less confusion for us. Disadvantage: None really. It's the best way to utilise the vet role, and the only flaw that there could be is if someone lied about it, but the lie should become obvious eventually. But if you don't want to then I'm not going to argue, I think there's plenty of other/better discussion that could be happening instead of us arguing over something that you won't agree to. Better to have the palmar/mataza stuff going if this just isn't going to happen. I strongly disagree. I think it's a terrible way to use a vet, because either he's dead (and a guaranteed good use for the roleblock instead of a chance of wasting it) or he's a confirmed townie (something he would have been anyway except with a day's advantage if he got hit). Both of these situations are made worse due to the claim. If he doesn't get hit, in either case, he's just a townie, wasting his potential. I don't understand how you can possibly think it's a good idea for the town, and your explanation of "centralised voice for the town" doesn't cut it given what I wrote above, and in my previous post. Your logic doesn't hold up. ##Vote:youngminii On June 05 2011 04:55 Hesmyrr wrote: Kinda negated considering his last paragraph. Speaking of the roleclaim discussion, wouldn't it be good idea to just let the vet decide? No matter how much argue if he doesn't claim/does claim then we are forced to work with what we have anyway. By that logic, we shouldn't discuss good prot targets for docs, potential vigi targets, investigation targets for cops etc, since we'll just have to work with what the power roles decide to do. Of course the final decision is on the vet/doc/cop/vigi/whatever, but we should discuss potential approaches so that they can make the best decision, and don't accidentally forget an aspect/potential result of a decision | ||
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JeeJee
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unichan won't post until about 11pm est today (so like 7 hours from now) and he mentioned this before the game started (just fyi if you missed it) | ||
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On June 05 2011 06:13 youngminii wrote: You bring up a plan to create discussion while knowing it was completely bullshit, then you tell everyone to ignore the idea (making the discussion null and void anyway)? That's completely retarded, big FoS, if all the inactives come back before the end of the day my vote goes to you. Whoa whoa whoa. The discussion is definitely not null and void. How did you come to that conclusion? Yeah he made up a deliberately shitty plan to see who would argue for/against it. I think it's actually pretty smart move by Palmar, since people who jump on supporting this proposed plan would be either eager mafia or careless townies. Which I'm sorry to say, you fall into one of those categories. @unichan, puppy-eyes-i'm-new-to-this and lack of commitment to a decision are actually commonly perceived as scumtells. How about you go through the thread, and pick one person that you think is most likely to be scum. Look for stuff that stands out, something that just doesn't seem right, any deliberate flaws in logic, and so on. Yeah it's day one so you're not going to be particularly sure (you almost never are), but how they react to your voting, perhaps explaining their actions in further detail is extremely helpful now and down the line as well. (don't just say "I vote:X" as that's useless, but outline your reasoning as well i.e. "I vote:X because of ZY") | ||
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On June 06 2011 00:18 prplhz wrote: Palmar The guy has been creating most of the drama so far and while it did make people talk I don't think it was good for town. His first posts only served to put pressure on Mataza, very light pressure as there were no arguments at all but pressure nonetheless. This line really stands out as odd to me.. Making people talk is just about the most pro-town thing you can do, especially on day 1. In general, I'm getting a pretty pro-town vibe from palmar actually, he started off day1 firing in 2 ways, tunneling on one person and shitty plan bait, this raised great discussion imho as a result of both of these, and is a very pro-town move on day1 where discussion is hard to find unless you force it in such a way ==> I am not sure why there's votes on him (for the record, whoever's been keeping the vote counts, they've been quite wrong. plus it's kind of pointless to arrange them by the voters rather than the "votees"). I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see minii doing what he does though =/ My suspicion of him isn't abating as he posts more, /shrug At the mo, I'm happy to keep my vote on minii; although searching for sinani's posts, and seeing that they are quite exclusively based on vote lists (and earlier on inactive lists), does make me frown. He did have a part of a post address steff, but if you ask me, that's not enough. Actually I want his stance on the main people that are talking* right now: palmar, minii, varp, myself if you feel so inclined. *talking with substance I mean, sorry but keeping lists doesn't count. only time I'd bring lists into the discussion is if someone is at L-2 or L-1 to make sure that everyone knows the importance of votes at that time | ||
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re: the big issue which is the vet claim On June 06 2011 04:43 sinani206 wrote: Does a lynch kill a veteran a little random, don't you think? a soft-claim perhaps? non-convincing BUT On June 06 2011 07:02 sinani206 wrote: I don't understand why everyone is voting for me. I've tried my hardest. Let's actually lynch a mafia and then vigilante can kill me if he wants. I also don't understand why everyone is unvoting steff. All he did was OMGUS vote me. Emphasis mine. what an interesting idea for someone that's a vet, don't you think? auto-confirmed via vigi. I'm not convinced but if he were vet, his actions are explainable. That said, day 1 is always a crapshoot, but these 2 things make lynching sinani very nervous endeavour for me and i'd rather stay on the safe side (nobody's voting minii anyway despite my arguments) and ##vote:OriginalName since that's the only other feasible target tonight | ||
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JeeJee
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the thing I find striking about "vigi can hit me if he wants" is that normally, claimers would say "cop can check me if he wants". unless of course you happen to have a second life. | ||
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Shall we turn to discussing good prot and cop targets? Intuitively I'd go with Varp or Palmar as I feel both have played very townie so far, and are also quite active. But from mafia's point of view, they may be 'too obvious' hits and they might go for secondary townie players that are perhaps less active but stir up discussion such as kavdragon or myself. In general from a doc perspective, I'd look for someone that's making good arguments, staying fairly active, and urging discussion along. Pick among those as you see fit, my 4 choices are up there. And minii would make a great cop check imho. Ideas? | ||
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On June 06 2011 11:33 youngminii wrote: Don't know if I'm the best cop check. I think it may be safe to play the next day or two assuming I'm town, no? I mean unless you really think my play is really scummy, but there's definitely better people to check imo, especially: Palmar. He's nearing the top of my scum list but there's a little voice in the back of my head telling me he's just a crappy town player. If we can get a cop to check him I'd be a lot more reassured. It's a (surprisingly) good thought. In general, at least the way I play cop, there's 2 things I look at 1) Someone that the town finds suspicious. I put you up as a cop check because I find you suspicious 2) The other good candidate is someone that's really active. It's pretty obvious that the most active people stir and lead discussion, and if they're mafia, it's very easy to lead the town astray. So someone like Palmar as you mentioned might be a good choice as well. This choice is inherently more risky of course, since mafia are also looking to kill off these people, so the cop might end up wasting their check, but it's a good approach nonetheless. I'd put this as a higher risk/reward option. | ||
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On June 06 2011 12:11 youngminii wrote: Well I mean, if the town is coordinating the detective check, mafia is probably going to (OH GOD I'M GONNA MAKE WIFOM) kill the person we agree to check. I mean if they don't, they're just stupid. In any case, I'm going to lean on the fact that I defended sinani from the start to remove any suspicions on me for now. I don't know exactly why you think I'm suspicious and I don't really want to know right now (in favour of other discussion) so try to look at the fact that I defended sinani, sinani flipped blue, and postpone your suspicion on me. I think the general consensus is to check Palmar for now, hopefully it turns out to be eventful. @OriginalName I think Mataza is pretty scummy and flying under the radar to be honest, no point in acting on this yet though. Just to make sure -- we're not trying to nail down 100% what the cop should check. Just good targets that the cops should consider. Like a list, similar to the potential prot list. If everyone agrees that the cop should check, for example, Palmar, then it opens up a world of useless (imo) discussion, if Palmar doesn't die by morning -- like why didnt he die, mafia should've hit him because our cop checked him. do we not have a cop? is palmar mafia? is he now a guaranteed n2 target? and other nonsense. | ||
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On June 07 2011 10:57 GMarshal wrote: Day post in 4 minutes. If I don't have an action from you then you spent the night twiddling your thumbs I don't know how GMarshal usually mods, but if you ask me, there is no reason for this post unless a night action that was supposed to be sent in, wasn't. So either we have an afk doc/cop, or mafia have an afk roleblocker. Of course if you've been rb'd last night, come forward and let us know (mafia already know who they rb'd, so there's zero point witholding that info from the town). Secondly, the ON wagon. It all stems from Kav's post as below. I got rid of some of your bold tags so that my responses (in bold) wouldn't be confused. On June 07 2011 09:24 Kavdragon wrote: I feel irish, cause I just found GOLD. (So much so that I'm going to forego my usual analysis formatting) Check this out: Sinani asks if vets can be lynched (something that was an obvious vet claim to me at the time) and three posts later, OriginalName posts this jem: Look at this post: There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him. Is there really? Here's what I see.. "sinani is an okay lynch since he's useless, all he's doing is writing lists which make you seem pro-town but actually isnt. i'll go with his lynch for now but I'm open to alternatives as his lynch won't give us a lot of info".. Where exactly is this majority that talks about sinani's innocence?The last paragraph in particular is condeming. "I'll go along with it for now..." He says that he'll go along with is, but he says it really reluctantly. If you are reluctant to vote someone, why are you voting them!? On a day1 lynch, uncertainty is not unheard of.. In fact it's probably the most common sentiment out there"But I would like to consider somwhere else as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus" He even defends him, pointing out the two things that were wrong with the lynch, and procedes to vote him!. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that you look for afterwards. What he says in his post and what he proceds to vote are a COMPLETE CONTADICTION. He cannot say with conviction that Sinani is scum, because he knows that he is not his scum buddy! Or perhaps he can't say it with conviction because it's day one, and nobody knows anything. Let's also look at who he pulled his vote off of in order to vote sinani: Steff. Up to this point he's said that mataza has been playing badly and at least insinuated that he was scum, along with palmer. However, he's never felt strongly enough to vote them. He voted Steff: He says that "his opinion from yesterday still stands" implying that he though that steff was lynch worthy for the past two days. (one game day). The key thing here is that he "highly suggests lynching [steff] unless he really steps it up." Steff didn't step it up, yet he pulls his vote off of him ONE POST LATER, and reluctantly votes for Sinani. This makes no sense. He shows that he actually has very little conviction behind what he is saying, and is not conserned with who is lynched. Classic scum mentality. I disagree here as well. Before ON's post, steff posted 4 times, all of which were pretty much useless "im drunk lol" posts. After ON's post (before ON switched to nani), steff posted 8 more times, with at least 3 solid player opinion posts (and some other junk). I'm not sure what your definition of "stepping up" is, but I think this qualifies. Looking past the sinani vote, in all of his posts up to the lynch (when people are trying to push the lynch onto him) he never once denys peoples accusations, and instead of defending himself, he just pushes for sinani harder. That's not how townies play. Townies don't lynch other people just so that they stay alive. Actually, that's exactly how townies play. You even said so in the next sentence. If someone accuses the hell out of me, I can defend myself all I want, but if I don't give an alternative, that's all pointless. Alternatives and analysis are key to any townie defense. Not just shutting down attackers arguments as that won't convince anyone, even though you're green. Remember this game isn't about what's true, but about what you can make people believe. You look for someone else who looks like scum (steff)and push for that instead of the person you think we should not be focusing on (sinani). OriginalName has played enough games to know better than that. Original Name is scum. This is about as clear cut as it gets folks. OriginalName is the obvious choice for a day 2 lynch. Is it really as clear cut as it gets? Now, I know. It's only a problem when you have a solution. I have an alternative, hold yer horses. Post 2 coming up. | ||
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my computer bitched out on me twice while writing my part 2. It's getting late I'm not going to re-write it a 3rd time tonight. Will sleep on it and write it up tomorrow. Will read your responses at that time as well Kav | ||
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On June 07 2011 13:27 Kavdragon wrote: He says that "Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless" That's ONE reason for why sinani should be lynched. He later says " nobody is really connected to him" and " hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus". TWO reasons why sinani is town. Dumbest thing I've ever read. Number of reasons isn't ever relevant, it's the quality of the reasons that matter. If I just give one reason "I checked him and he flipped red", that's going to be hell of a lot more convincing than any number of counter-reasons you can think of.Anyways, it's not about percentages of points, it's about the fact that he brings up these points as to why sinani is town, then votes for him. I'm glad you agree that the previous sentences are totally irrelevant. Otherwise I'd be questioning your motives for posting that nonsense. As I see it, he brings the points up not as to why sinani is town, but as to why he's not the best lynch. 1) "Not a lot of info is gained from the lynch" is pointing out a flaw with the current target but that's not implying his townieness or otherwise. 2) "he's probably thrown under the metaphorical bus" shows that there isn't a lot of resistance to getting him lynched. The fact that he voted for him after posting that particular reason is a little strange, I admit. I can't say anything about that and concede this point. Yes, I would agree that uncertanty is common especially, as you say, day one. But you have to look at it in comparison to the vote he made on steff. There was no hesetancy in that vote. He seemed quite sure of that read, yet he went with something that was obviously a weaker read in sinani. Again, compare it to steff. His vote on steff was a no-brainer vote since steff wasn't active; once steff became active he had to switch or look like a hypocrite. I missed a few posts from steff when looking over, but I think that the point still stands. He never said anything about steff shaping up when he switched votes. On the contrary, he called himself a hypocrite. You'll have to ask him why he calls himself a hypocrite there as I don't know, but I think the course of action he took is perfectly explainable from a townie point of view: vote for inactive person X. X becomes active. Change vote from X to Y Alternatives are important, I agree. But it's the alternative that he chooses that is scummy. Look at what he accuses sinani of: Being useless. Is that honestly the most scummy thing he could find out of everyone's play? His accusation of sinani is the weak accusation of a scum player who knows that he's innocent. Not that of a townie looking for real scum to substitute. Remember it's day one. If it were any other day, I'd normally agree that just "being useless" isn't lynch worthy, and is usually the sign of a bad townie. But for a day one lynch, "being useless" is a better reason than "he was inactive, but he's not anymore, but let's lynch him anyway" Responses in Red. ##Vote: OriginalName Keep in mind, OriginalName is already at 5 votes. That's 50%. Actually I don't think this game works on majority lynch, and simply deadline lynch (correct me if I'm wrong GMarshal), so it's not as dangerous as it would be if you consider he's at L-1. That's one hell of a fast bandwagon and it's been like what, 12 hours? And I'm apparently the only person that sees anything wrong with that? I'm afraid your argument has quite a bit of holes in it and the fact that everyone is just buying it no problem and choosing to vote for him makes me believe there's at least two mafia in the 6 votes so far (6 if you count steff. He unvoted but he's clearly capable of voting for OName as well) That's some good odds and I'd like to keep this list in mind for later. + Show Spoiler + Varp Minii Kav Steff* Dementrio Palmar For completeness sake of course, I'd have to put up the list of people who didn't hop on the wagon yet (although they may later, it's quite likely they are just sleeping), so that if this lynch goes through and OName ends up flipping red, you can consider these as people who didn't wish to vote for their scumbuddy. + Show Spoiler + Jeejee* Unichan Prplhz *I put a star on myself because I know I'm innocent, and I'm just not buying your argument. Also note that OriginalName is missing from this list for obvious reasons. TL,DR: Essentially, your argument comes down to: "He said Sinani isn't a good lynch target but he voted for him anyway, AH-HA! Gotcha mafia scum!" Sorry, but for a day one lynch target, you rarely if ever have a "good target", and sometimes you just have to go along with the rest of the town's opinion since you won't be able to convince them otherwise (it's not like you can make a decidedly better argument against anyone else on day one so why bother?) This would be a good argument later in the game, but day one? Give me a break. How does nobody else see this? I'm sorry, but this warrants a FoS on you from me, Kav. | ||
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On June 08 2011 03:28 Kavdragon wrote: Sigh. Jee Jee. Get some coaching from someone. I suggest foolishness or BloodyC0bler depending on who has time. You've got good intentions, but you're doing it all wrong. I'll explain later in the game-day, but honestly, you're hurting the town much more than you are helping it right now. csb | ||
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On June 08 2011 05:43 Kavdragon wrote: What do you think of OriginalName's defence? In your own words that townies need to suggest alternatives, but it seems like all he's willing to do is sit back and call a general BS on my arguments. He's been around since I made the accusations, why isn't he responding to the points I make, and why is he not trying to contribute? His defense is garbage, no denying that. I have no idea where he is, or why he's not responding. That doesn't make your argument any less shitty though, it just makes him look terrible. What is starting to worry me isn't the fact that your argument is shit, but the fact that a bunch of people lapped it up no problem. Kind of like minii and "lol let's have vet claim that's a great idea" day 1. | ||
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At this point, anyone that's not voting for ON will obviously be put under scrutiny if he flips red. First, this is such a scum approach to things. It's quite akin to the "fine, when he flips green, town better lynch you" defense. Results don't decide someone's greenness or scummyness. Only reasons, posts and actions do. If ON flips red, that doesn't automatically make Kav/you green, and it doesn't make me red for defending ON. My reasons are solid, and Kav's aren't -- regardless of what ON flips. Likewise, if ON flips green, it doesn't make Kav/you red. It just makes you wrong. And hella suspect. And surely since you played games before this, you know this. And yet, you write it anyway. Not for the first time this game either. Why? This is the fourth major anti-town move you made this game. (for those too lazy to read my other posts: 1) supporting an anti-town claim plan (yet using results to claim it would be a good idea? are you kidding me? welcome to vivi-ville) 2) using results of d1 lynch to claim innocence 3) ignoring my counterargument for ON's lynch completely 4) this) The fact that neither you, nor Kav have responded to the obvious flaws in Kav's argument, makes you both extremely scummy. Because by responding in detail, not only will the doubt of your analysis grow in others, but attract more attention to it. And we can't have that, now can we? Unless of course, you count "lol get some coaching" as a valid response. For the record, I talked to Coach Ace, although apparently I am forbidden from putting his opinions in this thread, so I'm just writing this for completeness' sake. @kav's latest post (is this supposed to address my concerns?) @JeeJee: Just wanted to say... Yes. It was in response to you saying that there was no "majority" of reasons against sinani's lynch in his post. That was a really stupid anti-argument (as it was never about the majority, but the quality), so I answered it with a really stupid answer. Does "There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him." sound familiar? It should, as it was the opening line of your argument. I don't bring shitty arguments out of nowhere; I shut them down. I'm appealing to other townies here to reconsider this whole ill-conceived wagon on ON and instead vote for its suspect source: ##Vote:Kavdragon I'm the only voice against this wagon -- shouldn't that tell you something? Either I'm the most obvious mafia in existence, taking on a huge risk to save my scumbuddy, or I'm using my head. When was the last time townies started to vote for a mafia on shoddy grounds, and the mafia were just like "oh okay let's let them do that, no problem". I'm off to a tooth cleaning thingy (fml this is gonna suck) but just use your head and re-consider the motives behind what people are posting now. | ||
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On June 09 2011 11:26 Kavdragon wrote: GAH. I had to make dinner, then go help Aidnai pushstart his car and just got back. Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game. Ok, so night actions: Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen. DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum) Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch. I appreciate the concern, but this post makes you look more scummy if that's even possible. If I'm the only medic choice, mafia is just not going to hit me. A medic that doesn't protect anything is a townie. Use your head medic. DT "check me but only if you thin I'm scum" no shit? Why else would the DT check you? Chalk up another one to pretend to be contributing while doing fuck-all Vig.. despite what others said, you don't *have* to hit tonight. If you do, and miss, we're still in lylo, that's great. That's the first thing I thought of as well. Of course another way is to wait, and hit night3. If vigi doesnt hit mafia and we mislynch, we lose night 3. Doesn't matter when vigi strikes, or if he strikes at all. I was going to go over every case, but just use your head. The thing is, if he's hitting night 3 instead of night 2, there's less townie targets, higher chance of mafia, more history. Common sense. Of course, if you are sure (and I would be), by all means, fire away. | ||
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