I think ShadowMaster deserves some credits for posts and answers like this.
If you like his ideas or not, at least these are the most thorough examinations in the whole strategy sections!
Good job and thanx!
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Veigh
Netherlands300 Posts
I think ShadowMaster deserves some credits for posts and answers like this. If you like his ideas or not, at least these are the most thorough examinations in the whole strategy sections! Good job and thanx! | ||
LastWish
2013 Posts
Since perfect timing and micro is needed not many players use it. Fisheye uses it on LT along with dropping 2 goons on expand cliff first, this way zerg must invest to another 1-2 sunken colonies to protect the cliff and withdraw drones till it's safe. Therefore on LT this strategy is quite safer i think. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 24 2004 17:41 BigBalls wrote: The ONLY thing reaver sair goon is good against is a 1 base zerg. thats it *1 gas zerg. But even then it's not that great, I like how kingdom zealot/reavers vs 1 gas zerg | ||
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Because even if you somehow beat the attack your drones will all be dead ;o | ||
SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
anyway, thats early game. secondly, on islands you NEED sairs v. zerg to keep them in check, the versatility of lords, and speed of muta/scourge will beat the crap out of you if you dont have sairs covering your shuttles. also, on islands zerg will have trouble massing ground units to combat you if you employ guerilla tactics. You have 1-2 hatches on a small island? well that wont be enough to get enough hydra to stop 3-4 reavers(microed) supported by sair and later dweb. Then think about costs, on island pvz you need sairs, you also need shuttles (and maybe obs.). Unlike the other 2 races these are on different tech trees. So you are wasting alot of money to cover 1. the ground and 2. the air. You cant venture up the templar tree so soon to deal with zerg with storms, without 2-3 gas nodes. it just wont work. So, you need something that is dangerous, splashing, and cheaper than zealot/templar to throw at the zerg. ur answer is reavers. That is why reaver/sair is so great. And i think on land maps reaver/goon is like terran metal v. zerg, can be good, DOES have the element of surprise, but ultimately there is only so much you can do with it, you dont have the versatility and power of templar/lot/goon, just like in tvz you dont have the microable, versatile and incredibly damaging M&M force. My 2cents. | ||
TH-GP
Australia226 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 25 2004 03:41 LastWish wrote: If u have corsairs quite early u can slow down zerg greatly, since he must cut down on drone production and must go eigher spores or den. I personally think that if u decide for spores, you waste 125(50 for drone) for evolution chamber, if u build 2 spores another 175*2=350 minerals. Otherwise u force zerg into using hydras early, being low on economy. Now u can try to use revear, i often see it with like 1:1 zeal,goon ,1 shuttle with revears, producing only goons from this moment. Since perfect timing and micro is needed not many players use it. Fisheye uses it on LT along with dropping 2 goons on expand cliff first, this way zerg must invest to another 1-2 sunken colonies to protect the cliff and withdraw drones till it's safe. Therefore on LT this strategy is quite safer i think. LastWish, that is exactly what I'm talking about Hydratech is no simple matter vs. Reavers and can easily blow up in the Zerg's face; it's really tough for even good players to keep up with Corsairs and Reavers in the early game using only hydras, and going colonies, while probably necessary, is a considerable investment that further justifies the strategy for the Protoss. SpuniasauR, You are right, but I think that everyone will agree that generally Protoss are much easier to play on island maps than on land maps; thus we are examining this strategy on whether it is viable on a land type map. It's those early attacks that we are examining -- is Protoss okay? | ||
ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
Many of PvZ problems stem from the fact that Zerg is fast and versatile, and can switch units, strategy, and style very quickly. The Protoss is often left guessing what units to build and what strategy to apply to a particular game. For example, if a Protoss rushes with zealots, but can't win the game instantly, then the Zerg can effectively get lurkers, mutas, upgraded hydras, lings, or a combo of these without the Protoss knowing exactly what the Zerg is doing. So the Protoss has to prepare for all of it, generally getting storm and cannons, then reacting more specifically once the Zerg is found out. What is the solution to this? The Protoss can make moves to force the Zerg into doing something. Corsair/goon/reaver forces a reaction out of a Zerg, which you can see in real-time. You can see what units are hatching out of the eggs, what buildings are being built, and how his current army is being allocated. Thus, in a general sense, you can counter his strategy instantly, rather than as a reaction, and see the game several moves ahead. By playing this way, you never expect one particular move to win the game. Instead, you just expect for your moves to put you a step ahead. It could be that you win on your first advantageous move, and it could be that it takes 40 minutes. To me, this is the "correct" way to play PvZ, given all the nuances and unique qualities of the matchup. So, if I were to go corsair -> goon/reaver, it would be so that I can possibly kill a few overlords, harrass with reaver drop, safely establish my natural, and see what my opponent is doing the entire time. In this way, I'm controlling the flow of the game. I can decide if it's a good idea to try for a "finishing blow" by actually taking my utility army of corsair/goon/reaver, and turning it into a real attacking army. Otherwise, the utility army makes a great defensive army, and allows for me to get a real attacking army (templars) while maintaining that utility. | ||
rednob
Korea (South)210 Posts
(1) In a PvZ, if Protoss goes Corsair, they know what the Zerg is doing and can react. Protoss doesn't have to build against multiple things or guess, but will have a correct, but debatably weaker (due to building the Corsair) reaction. (2) In a PvZ, if Protoss does not Corsair, the Zerg can keep them blind until they make their first real move (Lurker, Muta, Hydra, etc.); Protoss has to build to be safe from it all or guess. (3) ShadowMaster's excellent work is not consistent with the above two points (I have not personally checked -- this is soley from NonY's above post. | ||
ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 25 2004 10:56 NonY wrote: I feel like your analysis is naturally leading into an invalid direction. Allow me to explain... Many of PvZ problems stem from the fact that Zerg is fast and versatile, and can switch units, strategy, and style very quickly. The Protoss is often left guessing what units to build and what strategy to apply to a particular game. For example, if a Protoss rushes with zealots, but can't win the game instantly, then the Zerg can effectively get lurkers, mutas, upgraded hydras, lings, or a combo of these without the Protoss knowing exactly what the Zerg is doing. So the Protoss has to prepare for all of it, generally getting storm and cannons, then reacting more specifically once the Zerg is found out. What is the solution to this? The Protoss can make moves to force the Zerg into doing something. Corsair/goon/reaver forces a reaction out of a Zerg, which you can see in real-time. You can see what units are hatching out of the eggs, what buildings are being built, and how his current army is being allocated. Thus, in a general sense, you can counter his strategy instantly, rather than as a reaction, and see the game several moves ahead. By playing this way, you never expect one particular move to win the game. Instead, you just expect for your moves to put you a step ahead. It could be that you win on your first advantageous move, and it could be that it takes 40 minutes. To me, this is the "correct" way to play PvZ, given all the nuances and unique qualities of the matchup. So, if I were to go corsair -> goon/reaver, it would be so that I can possibly kill a few overlords, harrass with reaver drop, safely establish my natural, and see what my opponent is doing the entire time. In this way, I'm controlling the flow of the game. I can decide if it's a good idea to try for a "finishing blow" by actually taking my utility army of corsair/goon/reaver, and turning it into a real attacking army. Otherwise, the utility army makes a great defensive army, and allows for me to get a real attacking army (templars) while maintaining that utility. Excellent post. You are elaborating on what I called the Physical and Psychological aspects of the strategy, as mentioned in the original post. Physically the whole game takes a different flavor than old conventional PvZ games -- as you mention in your third and fifth paragraphs. This physical change will naturally put many Zerg players into a psychological rut; as you said, suddenly it is THEY who are forced to react. I'm confused by your first statement, though. " I feel like your analysis is naturally leading into an invalid direction. Allow me to explain...". What analysis are you referring to? Your post seems to support the strategy. | ||
ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
Game Analysis: Didi8 vs. Rabbit, Lost Temple 9 vs. 3, 1.09. Category: The Trouble with Reavers (What Not To Do) Replay: In the pack here. Of Particular Interest:
Report: A highly suspect build order (available here), made possible by the conservative game Zerg chose. Protoss chooses a strange mass-Reaver strategy, having 6 Reavers and only 2 Goons, 2 Zealots by the time he expands at 10:00. Notice that Zerg went late lair and Protoss knew it. Zerg attacked with mass hydras and focused on the Reavers, and Didi8 let them die without trying to save them. Zerg switches to mass Mutes and Protoss is helpless, having gone total Reavers. Conclusion: Mass Reavers sucks. Although this is low-quality play from the Protoss, this shows the sort of thing that users of this strategy must take efforts to avoid. | ||
NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
Category: Countering Sair/Reaver to Goon/Reaver (Spire) Replay: ArtToss vs JulyZerg Strategic Notes:
In Conclusion: JulyZerg met it with the timing and reflexes of a pro (hmm... wonder why?) and dealt it a real blow. It would appear that Corsair + Reaver to Reaver + Goon is very high-risk at such close positions, as Spire tech will blow the Zerg away. Notice, however, that if the Zerg had not gone spire but had tried to stick with Hydras, the close positions would instead have favored Protoss because he could drop faster while the Hydras would not get to his base any faster. A beautifully accurate play by JulyZerg, showing why he is one of the best. | ||
Empyrean
16927 Posts
On October 24 2004 22:10 ShadowMaster wrote: This_is_not_a_smurf, in the example I was referring to with the original notes, it was all about two corsairs -- the only two that were made in the game. As far as Protoss units go, I don't think Corsairs are generally considered overly expensive; sure, the 150 gas Stargate + 100 gas Corsair could be usefully spent elsewhere, but countless Korean gosus seem to think that the Corsair is worth it, even just as a scout. I think that that one extra Corsair might be worth it for how much more dangerous it makes your overlord-hunting/harrassment expeditions. Yes, shuttles are definitely higher priority targets than Corsairs. But if you check the replay I was referring to, you'll see what I mean. Again, Spiretech is a whole different game, but against Hydras, there are several AI abuse type things you can pull that give you that extra second you might need. Just an idea, though. You've seen the way Yellow and other Zergs like to send out ovies all over the map as soon as they have the speed upgrade, surrounding the enemy base and so scanning for any shuttles or probes leaving. With just two Corsairs, this is suddenly much more difficult for the Zerg. It's like an anti-hack The topic of whether the Corsair is worth it early game is definitely debatable, but by that very fact I think their value is apparent. Oh sorry, I didn't check the replay :D | ||
ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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KiLLme1st
United States1824 Posts
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S(O)ME(O)NE
Canada473 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 26 2004 15:27 S(O)ME(O)NE wrote: i think i would rather make zealots than goons speedy zealots. It would probably be great on a map where there is a freebee expand like biofrost. You could just turtle up and go out with reavers and millions of zealots. and if u have an citadel its not so bad to do tech switch. A siar would do great to socut also. I'm afraid I don't quite see your idea. With Zealots you are completely asking for Mutalisk, which is already the best Zerg option, and Zealots don't complement Reavers very well for main attack forces. Maybe you are talking about switching techs, like we've mentioned, to Zealots + Templar. That is definitely one of the main features of this strategy, and even of the whole game of Starcraft: knowing when to change strategies. | ||
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