I was taking a laddering break and looking for some games to watch on Youtube when I stumbled upon a bo3 between Sjow & Underdark(here's the link: ). I always learn a lot from watching Sjow's seemingly unbreakable terran play, and this game was no different. He did a really straightforward build that I have never seen anyone do in SC2 before: going straight to two factories off one base.
10 depot, 12 barracks, 13 gas(marines, scvs, and depots throughout) 18 factory 20 second gas second factory as soon as 1st finishes hellion out of first factory, and then tech lab reactor on second factory as soon as it finishes reactor on barracks after 2 siege tanks (not sure if the timing on this one matters)
Sjow gets enough marines, siege tanks, and hellions with no upgrades to be a formidable force on their own. He can then use this to pressure or defend early, and take an expansion. Then he starts getting siege mode, blue flame, more factories, and an armory for thors + upgrades.
I've been trying to figure out the best way to approach playing mech vs protoss for a while, and I couldn't find a way that satisfied me until this. Maybe this build isn't anything new, but after playing around with it a little myself I've found it to be very strong and safe. In set 2 of the bo3, Sjow even defended a 4gate with this build on blistering sands, despite not scouting and losing his bunker very quickly.
As with many non-raven builds I get the feeling that this would be weak to dark templars, but it should be able to get an engineering bay & a turret up fairly quickly, and there are already factories & tech labs lying around so teching up to a raven would be quick as well. What do you guys make of this? Are there any weaknesses in this build order that are apparent to you right off the bat? Are there any high level terrans who have experience using this build, or protosses who have played against it?
Yeah, I know, that might be my favorite part :D This build uses the raw strength of early factory units to stay alive instead of going through some incredibly roundabout 1/1/1 build or marine marauder build and transitioning into mech in the mid or late game.
Well, when u look on early factory strentgh by using unseiged tanks + marines and hellions for an early push, that might be stronger then early bio ball push (aka maras+marines) sure we wont have stim or CS, but adding like 5 SCVs to early push with potentional to repair/bunker up is like making an early push with an medivac, just kite ur marines well and let the tanks absorve the dmg.
even skipping the 2ed factory and adding a reactor to the rax might be great imo, hellion w/o blue flame r good vs zels on solo, but when theres stalker in the background.. i think marines wil be more effective, and tanks r also minerals cheap if u compaire them to maras, so thats more minearls for marines.
Tho the scouting hellion is a must ofcourse... using this always when i go 1-1-1,
It's a nice opening, but it's also a lot riskier than bio or 1/1/1 openings - at least that is my experience. Starport openings (voids or phoenix) are not so uncommon and would give this build a really hard time (limited amount of marines, no thor or viking early). Also, i don't like the aforementioned DT susceptibility - dying to a DT rush just feels really cheap and frustrating.
Also, keep in mind that the compositon (no-siege tanks, marines, hellions) requires really good micro to work properly.
I don't want to bash on the build as it does clearly work. I just want to point out the weaknesses.
I always open with reactor rax + factory into expansion in TvP and I found it to be very safe against every opening with a decently fast expansion and a good transition into tank+hellion. SjoWs opening looks very nice, but I would like to know how he can hold off 1 stargate 2-3 gateway aggression with 2 or 3 void rays, because it is even hard to hold off with a reactor barracks after the second marine and a bigger marine count, because you have no stim and he can easily pick off your marines if he micros his VR back and forth.
If anyone can tell me what to do at this point with SjoWs opening I will use it every game for sure
2 fact pushes are pretty well known, at least they should be, the 13 minute push is pretty strong when you get 2 factories with 2 tech labs instead and get 2 siege tanks and upgrade pre-ig first then your marines and tanks whack away at his forces while hellions go around back and roast probes while his army is distracted. A similar 2 fact build was used (upgrading spider mines before siege tech) in BW that was basically a 1 gate expand killer tho not as economical as the FD Terran build.
On February 12 2011 03:00 Lurk wrote: Also, keep in mind that the compositon (no-siege tanks, marines, hellions) requires really good micro to work properly.
I disagree, the raw dps of all the units combined makes it pretty 1-a friendly in the early game. You can even bring a few scvs on auto repair for good measure.
On February 12 2011 03:19 Bommes wrote: I would like to know how he can hold off 1 stargate 2-3 gateway aggression with 2 or 3 void rays, because it is even hard to hold off with a reactor barracks after the second marine and a bigger marine count, because you have no stim and he can easily pick off your marines if he micros his VR back and forth.
Hmm that's true. You could probably alter the build to get a reactor on barracks first and reactor on 2nd factory later if you're worried about VRs, wouldn't change the build too much. And I feel like this build makes more sense on close positions or if you want to punish a protoss early expand, otherwise I might go marine/siege expand as well.
On February 12 2011 03:13 avilo wrote: Been doing things like this a while on US server it's good. Even have streamed a kajillion of the games, but like 10 people watch lately -_-
Tried watching your stream the other day, but the quality was so bad it hurt my eyes I think if you picked a stream site other than livestream I would watch.
I like the idea of this, going to play with this. I think the future lategame of TvP is going to be more of a hellion/thor/ghost kind of thing than the bio or tank stuff we see now. The only problem is finding a suitable build to get there, and this has some promise.
chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
There is no way the P will have charge zealots by the time this pressure comes, it is pretty fast. By the time they have charge, your hellions will have blue flame, and blue flame hellions > zealots, charge or not.
Also after playing around with this build a little on ladder, it seems like moving out with this is a bad idea against a protoss who is making immortals/warpgate units early on. If they early expand it can do well, but otherwise I think it is best to wait till blue flame & siege mode and a high amount of tanks to move out.
Sounds amazing but like most big one base pushes terran does it could be handled easily with a 1gate fe. He would have enough for your push and you would be behind in economy and most likely fall behind to protoss macro.
chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
There is no way the P will have charge zealots by the time this pressure comes, it is pretty fast. By the time they have charge, your hellions will have blue flame, and blue flame hellions > zealots, charge or not.
What? First push came at 8:30. Thats more than enough time to get charge and a decent gateway force, especially if you hold off on your expo.
And no, blue flame hellions are not automatically > chargelots. You can focus those hellions down in about five seconds with your stalkers and sentries.
On February 12 2011 02:43 Shlowpoke wrote: Wow. I have never seen mech be that aggressive. Granted, Underdark teched Colossi and expanded at exactly the same time... but that was still awesome.
granted tanks are amazing vs colossi either way ^_^
On February 12 2011 13:34 Amarth wrote: chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
??? Vs BLUE flame hellions you suggest zealots, i am sorry but this will save you from a some what hardcore facepalm in the future, If he has a reactor factory making hellions which do + bonus to light (zealots are light) + blueflame if he has about 8 of them your zealots get completely destroyed.
I think the metagame window for this would be short lived. The more T does this sort of push the more P players will open stargate. That isn't what the T player wants the P to do because it is hardest of the openers for T to deal with; at least immortals or stalkers can be dealt with via ghosts or ravens, but neither of these answer Void Ray openings backed by a 2-3 gateway force.
On February 12 2011 13:34 Amarth wrote: chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
??? Vs BLUE flame hellions you suggest zealots, i am sorry but this will save you from a some what hardcore facepalm in the future, If he has a reactor factory making hellions which do + bonus to light (zealots are light) + blueflame if he has about 8 of them your zealots get completely destroyed.
zealots? yes.
chargelots supported by sentries and stalkers sniping hellions? no. l2micro.
EPT
it's good. Even have streamed a kajillion of the games, but like 10 people watch lately -_-
