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On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
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On February 14 2011 03:55 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion. neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all. I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out. theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle. the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
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On February 12 2011 13:38 iEchoic wrote:
I like the idea of this, going to play with this. I think the future lategame of TvP is going to be more of a hellion/thor/ghost kind of thing than the bio or tank stuff we see now. The only problem is finding a suitable build to get there, and this has some promise.
I also think that a transition from tanks to thors is good. The splash damage from tanks is just not that good vs toss. thors are more mobile, not so squishy and can help battle any air tech switch while you are building up the viking count. I dont even think its worth to research siege mode before switching to thors.
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On February 14 2011 04:26 Gecko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 03:55 sermokala wrote:On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion. neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all. I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out. theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle. the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's. Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts
you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech
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On February 14 2011 05:02 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 04:26 Gecko wrote:On February 14 2011 03:55 sermokala wrote:On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion. neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all. I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out. theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle. the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's. Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks. the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech
I think if you were to go mech a ghost/marine expand would be ideal in PvT, you have the units to hold any immortal or VR attacks that a two fact or siege expand could not possibly hold. then you will have the gas to start making factories when you have secured your natural. I really do think hellion/tank/viking/ghost has potential. You can stop making ghosts at any time so you would not be strapped for gas if you only made two or three ghosts.
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On February 14 2011 05:08 Gecko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 05:02 cilinder007 wrote:On February 14 2011 04:26 Gecko wrote:On February 14 2011 03:55 sermokala wrote:On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion. neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all. I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out. theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle. the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's. Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks. the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech I think if you were to go mech a ghost/marine expand would be ideal in PvT, you have the units to hold any immortal or VR attacks that a two fact or siege expand could not possibly hold.
not if i come at you with chargelots and a few phoenix to grav your ghosts.
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I was quite successful with early 4 Gate against this kind of build if you can scout the factory.
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On February 14 2011 05:18 Amarth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 05:08 Gecko wrote:On February 14 2011 05:02 cilinder007 wrote:On February 14 2011 04:26 Gecko wrote:On February 14 2011 03:55 sermokala wrote:On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion. neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all. I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out. theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle. the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's. Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks. the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech I think if you were to go mech a ghost/marine expand would be ideal in PvT, you have the units to hold any immortal or VR attacks that a two fact or siege expand could not possibly hold. not if i come at you with chargelots and a few phoenix to grav your ghosts.
That is the most unlikely thing i could ever imagine happening, and EMP disables graviton beam anyways.
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and grav neutralizes your ghosts, so all i have to do is surprise you, which is easy when im the aggressor and have the fastest unit in the game.
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On February 14 2011 03:55 sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote:
I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion. neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all. I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out. theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle. the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Actually, collosus still own vs mech too...collosus are basically good against everything, especially with phoenix pvt vs bio or mech.
mech is good, the only hard part is being able to kill them, as from my experience lately with tank/hellion/viking/thor/ghost is that when it gets to late game, you can't really effectively attack without being caught out of position on the map/countered, but the same goes for them - they can't attack you cost effectively...so both of you end up turtling until toss gets mothership and then plays SC1 "where's the recall gonna go."
The thing is, and it's the most difficult part of the match-up regardless of whether you are going mech or bio/viking/ghost...is that if you lose your army once in late game, you basically just lost the game because protoss will insta-warp in 30 units from gateways to your side of the map with minerals/gas left...
so regardless which style you play, you better be very good with army control if you play terran, because one loss of maxed army is game a lot of times. The people that say Terran have as good lategame as Z/P clearly have no idea what they are talking about or are being way too optimistic.
That's not to say you can't still play very good and beat p/z in those maxed + huge bankroll situations, it's just you have to play very good.
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I had my hopes up high when i saw this game, thinking some T finally revolutionized TvP and figured how to make mech work but ended up depressed. Such a bad example for a matchup..
oh well still looking for a good mech play in TvP
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On February 14 2011 05:38 Amarth wrote:
and grav neutralizes your ghosts, so all i have to do is surprise you, which is easy when im the aggressor and have the fastest unit in the game.
Now your just making stuff up because your more interested in proving me wrong than in having a discussion about making mechanical TvP viable. Your speaking about an all-in that you just made up on the spot and is unlikely to work against the opening i am talking about, or anything else to begin with.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ghost_Marine_Opening_(vs._Protoss)
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On February 14 2011 05:41 danielsan wrote:
I had my hopes up high when i saw this game, thinking some T finally revolutionized TvP and figured how to make mech work but ended up depressed. Such a bad example for a matchup..
oh well still looking for a good mech play in TvP
watch GoOdy or Jinro
both use mech alot vs good opponents
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im making stuff up? phoenix/chargelot is my automatic response to fast ghosts. sorry you dont get to play any toss who know what they're doing.
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On February 14 2011 06:02 Amarth wrote:
im making stuff up? phoenix/chargelot is my automatic response to fast ghosts. sorry you dont get to play any toss who know what they're doing.
I'm a high diamond protoss trying to throw in some ideas to this discussion. Why would you respond respond to ghost bio with phoenixes that effectively do nothing once hit by EMP? I would love to see your replays of this working i have never heard of such a strategy working.
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you dont seem to be getting that phoenix neutralize ghosts just as effectively as ghosts neutralize phoenix.
if youre sitting at your natural getting an FE up, its a very simple procedure for me to blitz you and grav your ghosts before you even know whats going on. maybe youll get one EMP off, but i can always just retreat. i might also just feint with my lots to draw an EMP or two. my shields will be back long before your energy.
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On February 14 2011 05:38 Amarth wrote:
and grav neutralizes your ghosts, so all i have to do is surprise you, which is easy when im the aggressor and have the fastest unit in the game. You cant expect phoenixes to last very long charging into a marine ball, and teching to chargelot + phoenixes is pretty gas intensive to "counter" a fast expand. Also taken straight from the wiki aricle + Show Spoiler +"Protoss has many options that are all extremely powerful versus Marine Ghost. Chargelots, Colossus, HTs, or even raw Protoss macro overwhelm a ghost/marine unit composition. However, all of these tech routes require a significant investment of time and money. The reason for the above idea is that, by the time Protoss is able to use their tech, the Terran has even more powerful tech to counter (in addition to a faster expansion), in the form of Maurader/Medivac, or Vikings, Tanks and Marines. Because each ghost costs so much, yet loses so much value as Protoss techs, you want to just narrowly defend, and using the rest of your money towards higher tier units."
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On February 14 2011 06:02 Amarth wrote:
im making stuff up? phoenix/chargelot is my automatic response to fast ghosts. sorry you dont get to play any toss who know what they're doing.
The timing on Phoenix/chargelot is off unless you open up with 3 gate stargate. Any other builds don't have enough time to tech switch before the Terran transition out of marine/ghost.
You won't even know the Terran have ghost until he moves out with his expansion. An observer can spot ghost early enough but going robo>stargate> twilight is just stupid.
The point of ghost/marine in this thread is it gives a safe way to midgame by transition into a mech build.
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any time my opponent spends sniping my phoenix is time for my lots to get all over him. and chargelot/phoenix is no more gas-heavy than fast ghosts.
AUGcodon - if you dont spot the academy by ~5:00 you failed at scouting.
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On February 14 2011 06:30 Amarth wrote:
any time my opponent spends sniping my phoenix is time for my lots to get all over him. and chargelot/phoenix is no more gas-heavy than fast ghosts. Unless you blind open a stargate skipping robo and add a fast archives, you are not going to hit the timing window between the FE and the transition. You also cant serious expect to do a standard robo opener with a obs, and then have the gas required to add an archives, research legs and get out a reasonable number of phoenixes to hit the window between the FE and the transition + macro advantage.
Everything you are posting right now is theory you assume is fact, if you have proof of chargelot phoenix working to counter ghost/marine expand then post it.
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EPT
