I was taking a laddering break and looking for some games to watch on Youtube when I stumbled upon a bo3 between Sjow & Underdark(here's the link: ). I always learn a lot from watching Sjow's seemingly unbreakable terran play, and this game was no different. He did a really straightforward build that I have never seen anyone do in SC2 before: going straight to two factories off one base.
10 depot, 12 barracks, 13 gas(marines, scvs, and depots throughout) 18 factory 20 second gas second factory as soon as 1st finishes hellion out of first factory, and then tech lab reactor on second factory as soon as it finishes reactor on barracks after 2 siege tanks (not sure if the timing on this one matters)
Sjow gets enough marines, siege tanks, and hellions with no upgrades to be a formidable force on their own. He can then use this to pressure or defend early, and take an expansion. Then he starts getting siege mode, blue flame, more factories, and an armory for thors + upgrades.
I've been trying to figure out the best way to approach playing mech vs protoss for a while, and I couldn't find a way that satisfied me until this. Maybe this build isn't anything new, but after playing around with it a little myself I've found it to be very strong and safe. In set 2 of the bo3, Sjow even defended a 4gate with this build on blistering sands, despite not scouting and losing his bunker very quickly.
As with many non-raven builds I get the feeling that this would be weak to dark templars, but it should be able to get an engineering bay & a turret up fairly quickly, and there are already factories & tech labs lying around so teching up to a raven would be quick as well. What do you guys make of this? Are there any weaknesses in this build order that are apparent to you right off the bat? Are there any high level terrans who have experience using this build, or protosses who have played against it?
Yeah, I know, that might be my favorite part :D This build uses the raw strength of early factory units to stay alive instead of going through some incredibly roundabout 1/1/1 build or marine marauder build and transitioning into mech in the mid or late game.
Well, when u look on early factory strentgh by using unseiged tanks + marines and hellions for an early push, that might be stronger then early bio ball push (aka maras+marines) sure we wont have stim or CS, but adding like 5 SCVs to early push with potentional to repair/bunker up is like making an early push with an medivac, just kite ur marines well and let the tanks absorve the dmg.
even skipping the 2ed factory and adding a reactor to the rax might be great imo, hellion w/o blue flame r good vs zels on solo, but when theres stalker in the background.. i think marines wil be more effective, and tanks r also minerals cheap if u compaire them to maras, so thats more minearls for marines.
Tho the scouting hellion is a must ofcourse... using this always when i go 1-1-1,
It's a nice opening, but it's also a lot riskier than bio or 1/1/1 openings - at least that is my experience. Starport openings (voids or phoenix) are not so uncommon and would give this build a really hard time (limited amount of marines, no thor or viking early). Also, i don't like the aforementioned DT susceptibility - dying to a DT rush just feels really cheap and frustrating.
Also, keep in mind that the compositon (no-siege tanks, marines, hellions) requires really good micro to work properly.
I don't want to bash on the build as it does clearly work. I just want to point out the weaknesses.
I always open with reactor rax + factory into expansion in TvP and I found it to be very safe against every opening with a decently fast expansion and a good transition into tank+hellion. SjoWs opening looks very nice, but I would like to know how he can hold off 1 stargate 2-3 gateway aggression with 2 or 3 void rays, because it is even hard to hold off with a reactor barracks after the second marine and a bigger marine count, because you have no stim and he can easily pick off your marines if he micros his VR back and forth.
If anyone can tell me what to do at this point with SjoWs opening I will use it every game for sure
2 fact pushes are pretty well known, at least they should be, the 13 minute push is pretty strong when you get 2 factories with 2 tech labs instead and get 2 siege tanks and upgrade pre-ig first then your marines and tanks whack away at his forces while hellions go around back and roast probes while his army is distracted. A similar 2 fact build was used (upgrading spider mines before siege tech) in BW that was basically a 1 gate expand killer tho not as economical as the FD Terran build.
On February 12 2011 03:00 Lurk wrote: Also, keep in mind that the compositon (no-siege tanks, marines, hellions) requires really good micro to work properly.
I disagree, the raw dps of all the units combined makes it pretty 1-a friendly in the early game. You can even bring a few scvs on auto repair for good measure.
On February 12 2011 03:19 Bommes wrote: I would like to know how he can hold off 1 stargate 2-3 gateway aggression with 2 or 3 void rays, because it is even hard to hold off with a reactor barracks after the second marine and a bigger marine count, because you have no stim and he can easily pick off your marines if he micros his VR back and forth.
Hmm that's true. You could probably alter the build to get a reactor on barracks first and reactor on 2nd factory later if you're worried about VRs, wouldn't change the build too much. And I feel like this build makes more sense on close positions or if you want to punish a protoss early expand, otherwise I might go marine/siege expand as well.
On February 12 2011 03:13 avilo wrote: Been doing things like this a while on US server it's good. Even have streamed a kajillion of the games, but like 10 people watch lately -_-
Tried watching your stream the other day, but the quality was so bad it hurt my eyes I think if you picked a stream site other than livestream I would watch.
I like the idea of this, going to play with this. I think the future lategame of TvP is going to be more of a hellion/thor/ghost kind of thing than the bio or tank stuff we see now. The only problem is finding a suitable build to get there, and this has some promise.
chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
There is no way the P will have charge zealots by the time this pressure comes, it is pretty fast. By the time they have charge, your hellions will have blue flame, and blue flame hellions > zealots, charge or not.
Also after playing around with this build a little on ladder, it seems like moving out with this is a bad idea against a protoss who is making immortals/warpgate units early on. If they early expand it can do well, but otherwise I think it is best to wait till blue flame & siege mode and a high amount of tanks to move out.
Sounds amazing but like most big one base pushes terran does it could be handled easily with a 1gate fe. He would have enough for your push and you would be behind in economy and most likely fall behind to protoss macro.
chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
There is no way the P will have charge zealots by the time this pressure comes, it is pretty fast. By the time they have charge, your hellions will have blue flame, and blue flame hellions > zealots, charge or not.
What? First push came at 8:30. Thats more than enough time to get charge and a decent gateway force, especially if you hold off on your expo.
And no, blue flame hellions are not automatically > chargelots. You can focus those hellions down in about five seconds with your stalkers and sentries.
On February 12 2011 02:43 Shlowpoke wrote: Wow. I have never seen mech be that aggressive. Granted, Underdark teched Colossi and expanded at exactly the same time... but that was still awesome.
granted tanks are amazing vs colossi either way ^_^
On February 12 2011 13:34 Amarth wrote: chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
??? Vs BLUE flame hellions you suggest zealots, i am sorry but this will save you from a some what hardcore facepalm in the future, If he has a reactor factory making hellions which do + bonus to light (zealots are light) + blueflame if he has about 8 of them your zealots get completely destroyed.
I think the metagame window for this would be short lived. The more T does this sort of push the more P players will open stargate. That isn't what the T player wants the P to do because it is hardest of the openers for T to deal with; at least immortals or stalkers can be dealt with via ghosts or ravens, but neither of these answer Void Ray openings backed by a 2-3 gateway force.
On February 12 2011 13:34 Amarth wrote: chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
??? Vs BLUE flame hellions you suggest zealots, i am sorry but this will save you from a some what hardcore facepalm in the future, If he has a reactor factory making hellions which do + bonus to light (zealots are light) + blueflame if he has about 8 of them your zealots get completely destroyed.
zealots? yes.
chargelots supported by sentries and stalkers sniping hellions? no. l2micro.
On February 12 2011 13:34 Amarth wrote: chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
??? Vs BLUE flame hellions you suggest zealots, i am sorry but this will save you from a some what hardcore facepalm in the future, If he has a reactor factory making hellions which do + bonus to light (zealots are light) + blueflame if he has about 8 of them your zealots get completely destroyed.
zealots? yes.
chargelots supported by sentries and stalkers sniping hellions? no. l2micro.
chargelots still get roasted im sorry but theyre there as a mineral dump/tank like the hellion
yeah most of your lots will die, but thats what they're for. 8 hellions at 8:30 means the rest of his force is going to be pretty weak. one or two tanks and less than ten marines tops. you should win that fight if you micro well enough.
yeah most of your lots will die, but thats what they're for. 8 hellions at 8:30 means the rest of his force is going to be pretty weak. one or two tanks and less than ten marines tops. you should win that fight if you micro well enough.
I think you're right actually, this goes back to what I said about 1 base protoss. I don't think pushing with your initial force is a good idea if you see the protoss 1 basing, you should hang back for a bit and wait till blue flame + siege mode. When you get those however, the chargelots will not be a problem as your hellions can shoot them and run back to the tank line. A good number of siege tanks in siege mode actually decimates the protoss army, especially with marine + hellion support for dps.
I've been plying with a 2 factory build for the last week or so. I've been getting two marines then a reactor on my first rax. Drop a techlab on the first factory and begin researching siege. Your second factory gets swapped with your rax to support double hellion. I think the big thing is the expansion timing which has to come after the second factory. @ the 7 minute mark you have something like 8 marines 3ish hellions and a couple of tanks with siege. If you push and expand your second base will let you support the factories, a starport. (for blue flame hellion dropping and medivacs.) and an additional rax. I'm still toying with how to properly swap things around between the addons. With double hellion production you quickly get up a good number of them. I'm considering swapping the fac to a techlab after the expansion for double thor or tank while putting a rax on the reactor.
i use much more economical triple OC -> mech build, that gives stronger mid game econ than 1gate FE protoss. its also extremely safe vs most aggressive protoss openings
On February 13 2011 04:46 YarNhoj wrote: I've been plying with a 2 factory build for the last week or so. I've been getting two marines then a reactor on my first rax. Drop a techlab on the first factory and begin researching siege. Your second factory gets swapped with your rax to support double hellion. I think the big thing is the expansion timing which has to come after the second factory. @ the 7 minute mark you have something like 8 marines 3ish hellions and a couple of tanks with siege. If you push and expand your second base will let you support the factories, a starport. (for blue flame hellion dropping and medivacs.) and an additional rax. I'm still toying with how to properly swap things around between the addons. With double hellion production you quickly get up a good number of them. I'm considering swapping the fac to a techlab after the expansion for double thor or tank while putting a rax on the reactor.
The video doesn't spend a lot of time in Sjow's base, but it appears that after his initial push and expand he built 2 more factories (for a total of 4) and even gets tech labs on them both. The game doesn't go long enough to see the side effects of trying to support 3 tech and 1 react factories off of two bases, but I think that could get interesting without taking a 3rd rather quickly.
On February 13 2011 05:00 cynslack wrote: The game doesn't go long enough to see the side effects of trying to support 3 tech and 1 react factories off of two bases, but I think that could get interesting without taking a 3rd rather quickly.
What do you mean interesting? You can definitely support 4 factories off 2 bases. You can take a third as soon as you feel it's safe and you'll be fine, the only thing you'll have to worry about is anti air.
On February 13 2011 05:00 cynslack wrote: The game doesn't go long enough to see the side effects of trying to support 3 tech and 1 react factories off of two bases, but I think that could get interesting without taking a 3rd rather quickly.
Actually you can support 4 factories on 2 base, but only if they are fully saturated. Also you have to mix in at least some hellions on your 3rd tech lab factory after 1 or 2 tanks because you don't really have enough gas to get blue flame early and tanks from 3 factories immediately afterwards. Also you have to be aggressive shortly afterwards because you will lack AA and can't really support another starport without a 3rd base if you want to continue producing tanks. But a 4 factory mid game push is quite deadly against most protoss ground forces if you siege up at good locations from my experience. Haven't done it for a while though, I prefer getting 3 factories, a faster 3rd, a starport and more turrets to get into the real late game with Tank/Hellion/Thor/Viking and eventually 1 or 2 ghosts, which is a really good unit combination. Hellions are just really versatile in the late game from my experience, they are devastating against zealots, HTs and sentries and you can poke everywhere and will almost every game get at least some into a mineral line somewhere, if protoss gets 3+ bases. It also forces them to get 3 or 4 cannons at each of there bases or they will lose a lot of probes for granted.
On February 13 2011 05:00 cynslack wrote: The game doesn't go long enough to see the side effects of trying to support 3 tech and 1 react factories off of two bases, but I think that could get interesting without taking a 3rd rather quickly.
What do you mean interesting? You can definitely support 4 factories off 2 bases. You can take a third as soon as you feel it's safe and you'll be fine, the only thing you'll have to worry about is anti air.
I had econ support concerns, but also that you would be fairly committed to mech and anti air as you noted would be an issue. I've never had success with thors against VR. Thanks for verifying that 2 base would comfortably support 4 factories.
yeah most of your lots will die, but thats what they're for. 8 hellions at 8:30 means the rest of his force is going to be pretty weak. one or two tanks and less than ten marines tops. you should win that fight if you micro well enough.
I think you're right actually, this goes back to what I said about 1 base protoss. I don't think pushing with your initial force is a good idea if you see the protoss 1 basing, you should hang back for a bit and wait till blue flame + siege mode. When you get those however, the chargelots will not be a problem as your hellions can shoot them and run back to the tank line. A good number of siege tanks in siege mode actually decimates the protoss army, especially with marine + hellion support for dps.
if he gets siege also thats pretty huge. if i sense my opponent committing to heavy factory production, im gonna get charge and blink, and drop a stargate for a few phoenix so i can neutralize his tanks when i decide to engage.
Chargelots can cripple your dps though marines without stim or shield get eaten away. But by time they get charge you will have transition into a hellion/tank/thor build with your remain marines helping out. I personally like to add on ghost and use the reactor from the barracks to double pump hellions. You really have to have perfect macro in a mech heavy play, one supply block sets you back a tank which could be the matter of life and death.
I like the idea of mech vs Toss, but when you think about it
Chargelots>>>good against mech
Blink Stalks>>>decent agaisnt mech
Immortals>>>>gods of destorying any mech build
Phoenix>>>>>>>>>>Great for hurting tanks
Void Ray>>>>>>>>> Stops all thors dead in their tracks(this is huge, mech in SC1 was quite succesful because the scout was shit. Now toss actully have an air to ground attack that is extremely deadly)
It just seems to me that protoss is designed to counter mech.
On February 14 2011 02:27 XXXSmOke wrote: I like the idea of mech vs Toss, but when you think about it
Chargelots>>>good against mech
Blink Stalks>>>decent agaisnt mech
Immortals>>>>gods of destorying any mech build
Phoenix>>>>>>>>>>Great for hurting tanks
Void Ray>>>>>>>>> Stops all thors dead in their tracks(this is huge, mech in SC1 was quite succesful because the scout was shit. Now toss actully have an air to ground attack that is extremely deadly)
It just seems to me that protoss is designed to counter mech.
hellions>>>>good against zealots blink stalkers>>>> close up thors deal with them nicely getting there tank splash also does a lot of damage immortals>>>> 1 ghost ruins your day Voidray>>>>> marine(early game) or viking(late game) will deal with voids
It seems to me that there are counters for each unit by each race. interesting...
I will play around with this build after I find a few replays ^^
i saw sjow do it on delta q vs someone i use it on xelnaga caverns from time to time but differently. going reactor barax first, take second gas before first factory and also get blue flame, you get a lot of marines so you dont die vs voidrays, you can push fast expanding protoss with 3tank about 12 marines and rallying hellions and usually win. if youre good enough and can see if something's up and expect DTs and get turrets then you can use this, but the expand is REALLY late so as every 1base build, quite risky
obviously stargate voidray or phoenix are the best openings vs this, probably blink as well but it's really fun because it reminds me of bw
It looked good but mostly because underdark didn't play very well imo. His first aggression is just crazy, like two colossus and what, 2 zealots and a sentry? Against siege tanks? O_O
Also should've cancelled that expo when he saw SjoW moving out with his army.
I definately think a typical 1gate FE build with lots of gateway units would rape that push and also be ahead in econ.
ppl underestimate how crazy tanks w/o seige vs stalkers.. and thats should be ur first push planned all about, and when u add few SCVs for repairing.. thats very strong..
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
On February 12 2011 13:38 iEchoic wrote: I like the idea of this, going to play with this. I think the future lategame of TvP is going to be more of a hellion/thor/ghost kind of thing than the bio or tank stuff we see now. The only problem is finding a suitable build to get there, and this has some promise.
I also think that a transition from tanks to thors is good. The splash damage from tanks is just not that good vs toss. thors are more mobile, not so squishy and can help battle any air tech switch while you are building up the viking count. I dont even think its worth to research siege mode before switching to thors.
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech
I think if you were to go mech a ghost/marine expand would be ideal in PvT, you have the units to hold any immortal or VR attacks that a two fact or siege expand could not possibly hold. then you will have the gas to start making factories when you have secured your natural. I really do think hellion/tank/viking/ghost has potential. You can stop making ghosts at any time so you would not be strapped for gas if you only made two or three ghosts.
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech
I think if you were to go mech a ghost/marine expand would be ideal in PvT, you have the units to hold any immortal or VR attacks that a two fact or siege expand could not possibly hold.
not if i come at you with chargelots and a few phoenix to grav your ghosts.
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Ghosts can shoot up, have a large HP pool, and can wipe shields off of VRs and immortals dood. Ghosts definitely make mech more viable against Immortals and air. Also EMP wipes phoenix energy so they cannot lift your sieged tanks.
the problem is you need a lot of gas making tanks, upgrades, vikings and then go for ghosts you need to be on at least 3 bases to support all of that so ghosts are more of a lategame thing if you're going mech
I think if you were to go mech a ghost/marine expand would be ideal in PvT, you have the units to hold any immortal or VR attacks that a two fact or siege expand could not possibly hold.
not if i come at you with chargelots and a few phoenix to grav your ghosts.
That is the most unlikely thing i could ever imagine happening, and EMP disables graviton beam anyways.
On February 14 2011 03:18 TheSaddestPanda wrote: I'd like to see a siege tank push into expand, scaring the crap outta the toss with tanks, then getting ghosts out with your expansion.
neither tanks nor ghosts can shoot upwars why should I be scared? 3 vrs at both base's mineral line and your dead even if I lose them all.
I love my tvp games where the terran goes mech. Its a real slugfest with macro and micro going hand in hand until someone taps out.
theres no real hard counter to either side. it requires a significantly different style of play then when terran just goes bioball with some mech support. gone are the fucking boring colissi vs vikings and now you got to make vrays and chargelots and maneuver your lots so they flank and surround. high templar is fun but it needs you to litteraly surround his hellians to win the battle.
the real fun thing with this is that it should translate into a protoss air vs terran mech battle. Its truely a dynamic MU's that I love and wish could expand into other MU's.
Actually, collosus still own vs mech too...collosus are basically good against everything, especially with phoenix pvt vs bio or mech.
mech is good, the only hard part is being able to kill them, as from my experience lately with tank/hellion/viking/thor/ghost is that when it gets to late game, you can't really effectively attack without being caught out of position on the map/countered, but the same goes for them - they can't attack you cost effectively...so both of you end up turtling until toss gets mothership and then plays SC1 "where's the recall gonna go."
The thing is, and it's the most difficult part of the match-up regardless of whether you are going mech or bio/viking/ghost...is that if you lose your army once in late game, you basically just lost the game because protoss will insta-warp in 30 units from gateways to your side of the map with minerals/gas left...
so regardless which style you play, you better be very good with army control if you play terran, because one loss of maxed army is game a lot of times. The people that say Terran have as good lategame as Z/P clearly have no idea what they are talking about or are being way too optimistic.
That's not to say you can't still play very good and beat p/z in those maxed + huge bankroll situations, it's just you have to play very good.
I had my hopes up high when i saw this game, thinking some T finally revolutionized TvP and figured how to make mech work but ended up depressed. Such a bad example for a matchup..
On February 14 2011 05:38 Amarth wrote: and grav neutralizes your ghosts, so all i have to do is surprise you, which is easy when im the aggressor and have the fastest unit in the game.
Now your just making stuff up because your more interested in proving me wrong than in having a discussion about making mechanical TvP viable. Your speaking about an all-in that you just made up on the spot and is unlikely to work against the opening i am talking about, or anything else to begin with.
On February 14 2011 05:41 danielsan wrote: I had my hopes up high when i saw this game, thinking some T finally revolutionized TvP and figured how to make mech work but ended up depressed. Such a bad example for a matchup..
On February 14 2011 06:02 Amarth wrote: im making stuff up? phoenix/chargelot is my automatic response to fast ghosts. sorry you dont get to play any toss who know what they're doing.
I'm a high diamond protoss trying to throw in some ideas to this discussion. Why would you respond respond to ghost bio with phoenixes that effectively do nothing once hit by EMP? I would love to see your replays of this working i have never heard of such a strategy working.
you dont seem to be getting that phoenix neutralize ghosts just as effectively as ghosts neutralize phoenix.
if youre sitting at your natural getting an FE up, its a very simple procedure for me to blitz you and grav your ghosts before you even know whats going on. maybe youll get one EMP off, but i can always just retreat. i might also just feint with my lots to draw an EMP or two. my shields will be back long before your energy.
On February 14 2011 05:38 Amarth wrote: and grav neutralizes your ghosts, so all i have to do is surprise you, which is easy when im the aggressor and have the fastest unit in the game.
You cant expect phoenixes to last very long charging into a marine ball, and teching to chargelot + phoenixes is pretty gas intensive to "counter" a fast expand. Also taken straight from the wiki aricle + Show Spoiler +
"Protoss has many options that are all extremely powerful versus Marine Ghost. Chargelots, Colossus, HTs, or even raw Protoss macro overwhelm a ghost/marine unit composition. However, all of these tech routes require a significant investment of time and money. The reason for the above idea is that, by the time Protoss is able to use their tech, the Terran has even more powerful tech to counter (in addition to a faster expansion), in the form of Maurader/Medivac, or Vikings, Tanks and Marines. Because each ghost costs so much, yet loses so much value as Protoss techs, you want to just narrowly defend, and using the rest of your money towards higher tier units."
You are simply not going to have tech that high that fast, you also assume you have perfect micro and your opponent doesn't know what the attack button does. If you have replays post them, but i think your counter arguments are just theory.
On February 14 2011 06:02 Amarth wrote: im making stuff up? phoenix/chargelot is my automatic response to fast ghosts. sorry you dont get to play any toss who know what they're doing.
The timing on Phoenix/chargelot is off unless you open up with 3 gate stargate. Any other builds don't have enough time to tech switch before the Terran transition out of marine/ghost.
You won't even know the Terran have ghost until he moves out with his expansion. An observer can spot ghost early enough but going robo>stargate> twilight is just stupid.
The point of ghost/marine in this thread is it gives a safe way to midgame by transition into a mech build.
On February 14 2011 06:30 Amarth wrote: any time my opponent spends sniping my phoenix is time for my lots to get all over him. and chargelot/phoenix is no more gas-heavy than fast ghosts.
Unless you blind open a stargate skipping robo and add a fast archives, you are not going to hit the timing window between the FE and the transition. You also cant serious expect to do a standard robo opener with a obs, and then have the gas required to add an archives, research legs and get out a reasonable number of phoenixes to hit the window between the FE and the transition + macro advantage.
Everything you are posting right now is theory you assume is fact, if you have proof of chargelot phoenix working to counter ghost/marine expand then post it.
On February 14 2011 06:30 Amarth wrote: any time my opponent spends sniping my phoenix is time for my lots to get all over him. and chargelot/phoenix is no more gas-heavy than fast ghosts.
AUGcodon - if you dont spot the academy by ~5:00 you failed at scouting.
The first marine comes out and denies scouting before five minutes, the observer does not come out until six minutes at best. i still stick by my theory that you are only interested in being right, to the point where you are willing to make things up. At least try and make your lies sound believable dood.
the window is much larger than you seem to think. so what if he gets a factory up? hes still vulnerable while his mech count is low, and im going to be poking constantly so he has to keep producing marines. as soon as i have legs and enough phoenix to grav every ghost and tank on the field, i go.
i dont have a replay because 95% of terrans on the ladder dont have the balls to do a ghost open. but ive walked right over it a couple times with this approach. how about instead of sitting there going "bawww show me a replay" you just try it.
still a scouting fail Gecko. if he doesnt wall in you should poke with your first units, plus a probe to scan his base. if he does wall, you should be opening stargate anyway, or you can just research hallucinate.
On February 14 2011 06:44 Amarth wrote: the window is much larger than you seem to think. so what if he gets a factory up? hes still vulnerable while his mech count is low, and im going to be poking constantly so he has to keep producing marines. as soon as i have legs and enough phoenix to grav every ghost and tank on the field, i go.
i dont have a replay because 95% of terrans on the ladder dont have the balls to do a ghost open. but ive walked right over it a couple times with this approach. how about instead of sitting there going "bawww show me a replay" you just try it.
My problem with you not posting replays is that you outright lie to people, so if i do not have replays of any of this then i can assume that you are full of it.
im done talking to you Gecko, youre a fool who is completely incapable of generating original thought. youre never going to excel at this game until you learn to think outside of the box.
I dont know what Armath is trying to say here. Even if Phoenix chargelot is strong vs marine ghost you need to have 3 gate stargate blindly to get that comp without knowing what the terran is doing. You definitely cant get a robo in there for an obs.
On February 14 2011 06:48 Amarth wrote: im done talking to you Gecko, youre a fool who is completely incapable of generating original thought. youre never going to excel at this game until you learn to think outside of the box.
I'm still waiting for those replays that are going to prove how foolish i am.
On February 14 2011 06:48 Amarth wrote: im done talking to you Gecko, youre a fool who is completely incapable of generating original thought. youre never going to excel at this game until you learn to think outside of the box.
God forbid he posts legitimate scout timings to disprove your ridiculous theories. Theirs a difference between creativity and being stubborn. Replays are solid proof you dont have, making snide remarks like below only bring discredit to yourself.
On February 14 2011 06:44 Amarth wrote: how about instead of sitting there going "bawww show me a replay" you just try it.
But i don't know why i bother arguing with you, everything you post is based on this idea that you have an infallible strategy that no amount of legitimate evidence to the contrary can disprove. If you had legitimate evidence like replays or something beyond your ridiculous theory of your own perfection i could take you seriously.
well then its a good thing i dont really give a fuck how seriously you take me. i know my strategy works, and if you're too close-minded to consider it, well, thats too bad for you.
Bratok's solution is a bunker at the ramp. Bunker usually mean cloak banshee or raven banshee push. Most people's response is usually a robo at this point which is going to throw off the timing for your attack.
Hallucination is still not going to come fast enough, your tech choice should already be chosen by the time warp gate finish. Please don't tell me you are going to research hallucination before warp-gate.
I will concede there will be vulnerability in the transition phase. I think simcity with Fact, rax and bunkers will help migate that. Chances are SCVs need to be brought in. if your attack is held off, Terran basically wins because you just did an all-in.
On February 14 2011 07:02 Amarth wrote: well then its a good thing i dont really give a fuck how seriously you take me. i know my strategy works, and if you're too close-minded to consider it, well, thats too bad for you.
You are either a troll or really full of yourself over a strategy you apparently never use and don't have replays for. Not sure but either way you at least managed to make a jerk out of yourself
On February 14 2011 07:02 Amarth wrote: well then its a good thing i dont really give a fuck how seriously you take me. i know my strategy works, and if you're too close-minded to consider it, well, thats too bad for you.
It's seems you found your way here from the public battle net forums to fill this thread with meaningless "but if", "but then", "yea but if" posts that contribute nothing but annoy people who try and read through it and derail the discussion. Please get banned soon.
@Gecko Weren't you originally talking about ghosts with mech when he suggested the phoenix chargelot opening? How did that morph into the old Bratok marine ghost opening?
On February 14 2011 07:09 GoonSack wrote: @Gecko Weren't you originally talking about ghosts with mech when he suggested the phoenix chargelot opening? How did that morph into the old Bratok marine ghost opening?
I originally had suggested trying to open with ghost marine into expo to hold all-ins and then transition to factory play before the thread got derailed into this . The idea was that its a safe build that gives you good gas and ghosts complement mech anyways.
After a marine ghost opening, What are the options?
I am leaning toward 2 fact 1 port. There is going to be a turtle phase where you get blue flame and siege mode. after that, blue flame drops and harass can wrestle away the map control from toss. The port also helps with retaining some air control so toss's phoenix count won't go overboard. From there a third expand would go up. Not quite sure what will happen after this.
I'm really liking this style, I'll have to check it out. I think against someone that KNOWS your doing this though if they can hide 3-5 void rays and then attack you there isn't really anything that can be done. Remember 1 void ray beats 1 thor as well, so you'd have to have a decent amount of turrets or marines with stim and/or combat shields.
edit- you'd need a critical mass of voids, otherwise I think with the amount of marines that show builds (10) you wont be able to finish them off.
Im not to sure why everyone is arguing about ghosts for this build, sjow didnt get ghosts. Not that a ghost would be bad its just i would need four gases for me to make ghosts flow into the mech play nicely so its kind of a mid-late game strategy imo. I usually get ghosts after i get my 3 Factories down i take the reactor off the barracks and give it to the factory and make a tech lab on my barracks and a ghost accademy then go ghost/ hellion/tank/thor. Mech play i feel is strong against protoss because that many tanks force a chargelot/pheniox/sentry style of play which i feel is weak against marine/blue hellion. So protoss needs to produce a perfect balance to fight your army or they will get cleaned up. And even if you trade armies you can then just focus on macro and scouting producing nonstop.
I can't stand to reason how this post got so off topic, but back to the main point.
I've been laddering a bit recently with this build and it seems to work pretty well, on most maps however, I cannot see a tank push work as it did in the posted match of Sjow's. The one benefit of the build is the ingrained defense early tanks provide, paired with the mobility and harass capability of hellions. In fact, hellions are pretty kick ass against most toss who usually blind counter bio if you deny scouting and know how to fake them out long enough for their robo to pop. By this time I usually add in a SP instead of the fast 2 factories off of my expand. The reason for this is to prevent the mobility of a later Protoss army with warp-ins and stalkers to avoid them from ruining hellion play.
Medvacs grant great mobility, and if you're using mech, you have to have some way to stay active with harass, or else Protoss gets a death ball up and eventually marches in your door. I find the games I lose running a 2 fac opening, I either failed to scout a 3 gate void or just stop poking with hellions and rines. If you don't win or seriously damage your opponent when you push out, it's easy to go into uber turtle terran mode and just sit on 2 base while trying not to die. As long as you keep harassing and incorporate the inevitable ghosts to weaken immortals, this build sets you up for a pretty good late game.
This build is interesting! I really need some more TvP builds, as the 3rax and 1/1/1 rine/tank/banshee builds gets boring : ). The idea of having hellions and tanks against a gateway army is stimulating.
I think that a good mix of blue flame hellions and tanks can take out a protoss ground army it's just that terran has terrible ground to armored air, the thor is terrible against void rays and carriers. I don't know if marine/hellion/tank would work because thats asking to be stormed and hellion/tank/viking still loses badly if it loses air control to protoss. Surviving stargate openings would be brutal too. As i offrace T making mech work would be really fun but the air problem is difficult to conquer. I had originally suggested ghost/marine into 2base ghostmech like people used to do in beta but we saw how far that derailed the thread.
EDIT: Here is a jinro mech PvT VOD
Maybe people could get ideas from this, he went 1/1/1 to deal with any air openings, expanded, and then got 3 more factories. Maybe this could be a way of opening without the worry of autolosing to void rays?
Are u guys so sure that thors r such an neccesey part of this build? I mean, i m not saying that thors r bad, its just i feel like they r kinda catching the role of tanks for big dps, and they r so expansive for been treated as the "meat shield" to cover ur tanks/hellions. With all that cost, i think vikings will be much more effective, cuz vikings just rox vs toss.. they will be much more effective vs air, and will demolish coloses play..
On February 12 2011 03:13 avilo wrote: Been doing things like this a while on US server it's good. Even have streamed a kajillion of the games, but like 10 people watch lately -_-
On February 12 2011 03:13 avilo wrote: Been doing things like this a while on US server it's good. Even have streamed a kajillion of the games, but like 10 people watch lately -_-
I like this build, though I think 1/1/1 seems a bit safer? You have the option to get vikings if he goes void rays, and banshees for if he doesn't. Once you expand you can always drop more factories. If there was a way to be sure he wasn't going stargate I'd feel more confident going for double factory.
This build has been done to me a few times (2800 P), I wasn't sure how to deal with it, I thought it was a rine tank contain at first so I just moved my entire army outside and waited for him to push out. Strangely enough, even with me fast expanding off 2gate robo, we traded pretty equally. At that point I just proxied a stargate,made non stop Immortals/Zealots and some stalkers, and pushed when I had 3 voidrays... but I think I only won because of the first battle.
Getting up the ramp was hard though, especially when he just blocks off with hellions, there are so many of them that you end up getting shredded by tanks.
Anyone have any idea how to deal with this without a 1.5base allin?
EDIT:
Oooh yeah, now I remember, I had blink stalkers (it was LT and he had no spotter Depos, so I could the stalkers into his base without him knowing) so I managed to snipe some tanks on the high ground with them before they died, that is how I managed to get up, don't think I could have otherwise
On February 12 2011 13:34 Amarth wrote: chargelots with good forcefields and a few stalkers targeting the hellions should run right over this.
??? Vs BLUE flame hellions you suggest zealots, i am sorry but this will save you from a some what hardcore facepalm in the future, If he has a reactor factory making hellions which do + bonus to light (zealots are light) + blueflame if he has about 8 of them your zealots get completely destroyed.
zealots? yes.
chargelots supported by sentries and stalkers sniping hellions? no. l2micro.
No... just no
who gets charge by 8:30? You do realize it costs 150/100 for the twilight council, and then 200/200 for charge, and you would have to start your twilight council at like 5 minutes...
if you get charge that early you're either going one-basing absurdly hard/going all-in, or have no units because you expanded AND decided to rush for a mid-late game upgrade. Either way you lose unless terran plays horribly and either doesnt just expand with siege and take a huge lead upon seeing no expo, or just kills you if he sees an expansion and no units
either way you lose if thats your plan. even if you had charge AND units, the hellions are still going to do a lot of damage, and you're completely ignoring the tanks which are destroying everything else
also... terran can "micro" too by just pulling back his hellions, wasting your charge making your ridiculous 8:30 350/300 upgrade investment a complete waste in about 2 seconds
ive been doing this like 5 times in a row against my p buddy and won everytime i used to loose against him all the time when i did the 2 rax expo or a variation of it, but this is just so strong
EPT
it's good. Even have streamed a kajillion of the games, but like 10 people watch lately -_-
. The idea was that its a safe build that gives you good gas and ghosts complement mech anyways.
