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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Trying to read the last few games to find out what makes sense is ridiculous. You're killing skill levels giving the Town, and in some instances Mafia these stupid crutches. Let people get better by actually having to put some thought into actions. No more voting threads unless your game has a lot of players. I don't think people actually realize scumhunting works when you force players to take a stance with their vote. Keep the game in the thread if you want a better game. | ||
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Mr.Zergling
United States141 Posts
On January 03 2011 04:54 Ace wrote: Less double lynches, less mad hatters, less Town PMs. More Vigilantes, more Serial Killers. Thanks. Trying to read the last few games to find out what makes sense is ridiculous. You're killing skill levels giving the Town, and in some instances Mafia these stupid crutches. Let people get better by actually having to put some thought into actions. No more voting threads unless your game has a lot of players. I don't think people actually realize scumhunting works when you force players to take a stance with their vote. Keep the game in the thread if you want a better game. Brilliant, I would really like to see town PMs go away, as the last two games i've played in, the majority of play has gone on in PM land. I like voting threads though, as you can go to one thread and easily see who people have voted for/unvoted for | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
Flamewheel you're probably one of the only hosts who has filter powers. And I hope 30 player games count as "large" because if it doesn't then I don't know what is. The problem with people not getting better is that people don't want to get better, or think there is a magical way to get better overnight. Sadly there isn't. I don't think removing DLs and MHs is going to change much. The biggest problem I see with people not being able to scumhunt is that while some people are clueless, some people have a general idea but don't know how to execute strategy and get things done. Its like people are shocked and don't know what to do when they are forced into a position where they are the top player in the game. Player apathy also seems to be high recently. Which is why explaining votes isn't going to happen. | ||
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
You think Vigi's require more skill then hatters though? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Double Lynches and Mad Hatters are imo just terrible mechanics. Downright awful. Double lynching doesn't encourage scum hunting. I mean seriously - you get to lynch two people who you think are scummy when majority of the time they can't even figure out 1. So the town gets to lynch their way to LYLO faster without even thinking. Did we just lynch a townie because of a dumb wagon? Vote for Double Lynch! Did our DT just get night killed? Vote for Double Lynch! Do we have anything better to do? No. Vote for Double Lynch! Why is this stupid mechanic used? In a game for experienced players it's broken, and in a game with newer players they aren't really good at scumhunting so it's a killer. Mad Hatters are just terrible for a different reason. Why oh why does a Townie need to kill himself? Even worse the MH unlike the Vigi is a roleclaim that for all intents and purposes not only has no counter-claim but Mafia can't even deal with it. But ok, the MH places bombs on targets. Role claims and says LYNCH ME! This isn't strategic at all. Then add in that you get to vote for a Double Lynch and the silliness continues. Thankfully most Town players don't realize that voting for Double Lynch Day 1 and having their Mad Hatters role claim would allow them to carpet bomb their way to victory. No need to actually look for Mafia when you can almost over power them through sheer KP and numbers. But I'm glad I've never actually drawn MH because I'd be pretty upset that I'd need to kill myself to use my KP as Town. Vigilantes are just flat out better in every way than this useless role. They can self-confirm without dying, they can pressure vote after a role-claim and threaten people and still have their vote count. Mafia and especially SKs can fake claim the role and hey - it's a valid claim! Not to mention they don't have to role claim and get lynched to be effective. They also clean up the bad townies/anti-town players ASAP which is the real benefit of them. Mad Hatters can't do this because well - they suck. Rol: Vigis require far more skill than Hatters. Ask yourself how many people you've ever seen on this forum play Vigilante really well to the point of being effective. Then look at the amount of games we've had Hatters just carpet bomb their way through Town or Scum and it was just "oh well, thats how Hatters are" stances. The role is completely garbage. | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
Just simply claim that you will, or you did place a bomb on someone during the night. You don't even have to be a MH to do that, but it does make people panic. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Serial Killers up the game KP and allow for more situations where pressure to claim happens. As it is now just look at the way most lynches occur. There isn't even pressure voting to claim or trying to figure stuff out. Put an SK in the game and when the multiple night kills start happening Vigilante hunting becomes important. Why would vigilante hunting become more important because of an SK? Can you elaborate on that a little more? | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
I think the reason we have been using Hatters is because Vigis are just ridiculous in PM games. If your game has PMs, you should not be using Vigis. It is too strong for them to just call out their hit and then form a PM circle. I disagree completely with your statement that Vigis take more skill to play than Hatters. I don't think we have seen more than 1 instance of the Hatter role being used correctly actually (dreamflower in Mafia XV). The thing is, if the Hatter is lynched, the town is wasting KP. It might be appropriate to change the role so they have 1 bomb instead of 2 to avoid the carpet bombing effect, but it is a lot harder to draw out a hit from the mafia while placing your bomb correctly than it is to survive for a day or two and then take a shot. We don't have the hatter roleclaim and double lynch immediately in an attempt to "carpet bomb our way to victory" because that's actually the easiest way for the town to lose. The town would rather use their KP when their information roles have had a little time to point out scum. Throwing KP at early game suspects is an easy way to kill townies and put the town into a big hole. Sure they might get lucky from time to time, but it just isn't a consistently effective strategy. Why can't SK or Mafia pretend to be a Hatter? Because they're afraid of a lynch? That is a ridiculous waste. If they have managed to make themselves suspicious enough that they are worried they cannot dodge a lynch with a Hatter claim when they probably could survive with a Vigi claim, they probably screwed up anyways. Also, this isn't really that much of a problem because a lot of the games have the Vigi role on the role list and it just isn't used. The whole point of it being there is so the Mafia/SK can roleclaim it. I'm with Incognito. I don't think your proposed changes really do much for the player skill level. It won't increase because people don't want to get better. DrH, mandatory smurfing is just a bad idea. The games become more about figuring out who is which smurf than they do about finding scum. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On January 04 2011 00:17 Qatol wrote: Voting threads are pretty much going to happen for games with more than ~15 players. It is too hard on the host to not have them. More vote counts in the main thread would be nice though. I think the reason we have been using Hatters is because Vigis are just ridiculous in PM games. If your game has PMs, you should not be using Vigis. It is too strong for them to just call out their hit and then form a PM circle. I disagree completely with your statement that Vigis take more skill to play than Hatters. I don't think we have seen more than 1 instance of the Hatter role being used correctly actually (dreamflower in Mafia XV). The thing is, if the Hatter is lynched, the town is wasting KP. It might be appropriate to change the role so they have 1 bomb instead of 2 to avoid the carpet bombing effect, but it is a lot harder to draw out a hit from the mafia while placing your bomb correctly than it is to survive for a day or two and then take a shot. We don't have the hatter roleclaim and double lynch immediately in an attempt to "carpet bomb our way to victory" because that's actually the easiest way for the town to lose. The town would rather use their KP when their information roles have had a little time to point out scum. Throwing KP at early game suspects is an easy way to kill townies and put the town into a big hole. Sure they might get lucky from time to time, but it just isn't a consistently effective strategy. Why can't SK or Mafia pretend to be a Hatter? Because they're afraid of a lynch? That is a ridiculous waste. If they have managed to make themselves suspicious enough that they are worried they cannot dodge a lynch with a Hatter claim when they probably could survive with a Vigi claim, they probably screwed up anyways. Also, this isn't really that much of a problem because a lot of the games have the Vigi role on the role list and it just isn't used. The whole point of it being there is so the Mafia/SK can roleclaim it. I'm with Incognito. I don't think your proposed changes really do much for the player skill level. It won't increase because people don't want to get better. DrH, mandatory smurfing is just a bad idea. The games become more about figuring out who is which smurf than they do about finding scum. I know that would happen but it would be nice if it didn't. I hate metagaming and it's mostly very misleading (player x is usually SO ACTIVE why did he not post immediately 10 minutes after the game started omg lynch him) | ||
mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
On January 03 2011 11:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote: mandatory smurfing imo This is a nightmare for staff, I think there was a problem with RebirthofLegend and Plexa and I had to tell the rest of the staff why smurfing in mafia was necessary for that game. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On January 04 2011 05:05 mikeymoo wrote: This is a nightmare for staff, I think there was a problem with RebirthofLegend and Plexa and I had to tell the rest of the staff why smurfing in mafia was necessary for that game. :O What are you doing back in the mafia forum? Here we were getting used to being unsupervised and then you and TheMango suddenly show up! | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On January 04 2011 07:10 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I know. I try to hide here so I can avoid bans for at least every 1000 posts. Then all of a sudden we have mango and mikey up in here. I was tempted to push mango day 1 just to get rid of the ban thread No taking away my power grab! I will continue to rule the mafia forum with an iron fist! | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On January 04 2011 05:05 mikeymoo wrote: This is a nightmare for staff, I think there was a problem with RebirthofLegend and Plexa and I had to tell the rest of the staff why smurfing in mafia was necessary for that game. Smurfing bad. | ||
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