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Agree with Foolishness here. Third parties just add too much volatility to the game that imo don't help gameplay too much. Distracts town from actually knowing what their win condition is, and just makes town hope SK does the dirty work for them. Just look at PYP3. Besides BC, town didn't deserve to win anything. Yet they still got close because SK was being pro-town. At the same time, mafia just has to hope SK isn't smart enough to target them, since they're pretty much powerless to eliminate the SK even if they know who he is. The only way to eliminate him is by lynch, and most times town isn't going to be up for letting that happen.
Also as with Qatol's first point, its really hard to win with SK. If I got an SK in a 30 person game, I wouldn't be too inclined to play seriously. So many things can go wrong, and I'm going to have an extremely difficult time trying to make everything play out the right way. It will take days/weeks of effort to actually win, but if anything goes wrong, my chances of winning could vaporize in an instant. With this sort of payoff, is it worth it? Probably not. Might as well mess around and just get a good laugh out of it instead of potentially getting an ulcer trying to win the game.
If SK is actually trying to win the game, then the SK has a balancing effect on the game. If town is doing poorly, SK is going to be pro-town. If mafia is getting obliterated, SK is going to try to shoot some townies. Which gives town/mafia the option of playing a mediocre game and still getting away with it. So in essence, smart serious SK allows the rest of the town/mafia to slack off and play a mediocre game and still be ok, while a non-serious SK just makes the game volatile. No reason to have SKs imo.
As for assassins, I'm not sure how this mechanic helps the game. First, it adds a bunch of KP to the game, making it volatile. Second, if they're made bulletproof, thats just disadvantageous for the mafia, since now theres around 2-4 non-hittable 3rd party characters, 2 potential medic prot targets and potentially a vet. No point in either mafia or town finding assassins either, so basically this just creates two games, which doesn't improve gameplay imo.
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for what its worth, i quite liked the three faction setup from haunted, although neither "mafia" could be considered the third party, since they were basically two competing scum teams.
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On February 11 2011 15:27 Incognito wrote:
Agree with Foolishness here. Third parties just add too much volatility to the game that imo don't help gameplay too much. Distracts town from actually knowing what their win condition is, and just makes town hope SK does the dirty work for them. Just look at PYP3. Besides BC, town didn't deserve to win anything. Yet they still got close because SK was being pro-town. At the same time, mafia just has to hope SK isn't smart enough to target them, since they're pretty much powerless to eliminate the SK even if they know who he is. The only way to eliminate him is by lynch, and most times town isn't going to be up for letting that happen.
Also as with Qatol's first point, its really hard to win with SK. If I got an SK in a 30 person game, I wouldn't be too inclined to play seriously. So many things can go wrong, and I'm going to have an extremely difficult time trying to make everything play out the right way. It will take days/weeks of effort to actually win, but if anything goes wrong, my chances of winning could vaporize in an instant. With this sort of payoff, is it worth it? Probably not. Might as well mess around and just get a good laugh out of it instead of potentially getting an ulcer trying to win the game.
If SK is actually trying to win the game, then the SK has a balancing effect on the game. If town is doing poorly, SK is going to be pro-town. If mafia is getting obliterated, SK is going to try to shoot some townies. Which gives town/mafia the option of playing a mediocre game and still getting away with it. So in essence, smart serious SK allows the rest of the town/mafia to slack off and play a mediocre game and still be ok, while a non-serious SK just makes the game volatile. No reason to have SKs imo.
As for assassins, I'm not sure how this mechanic helps the game. First, it adds a bunch of KP to the game, making it volatile. Second, if they're made bulletproof, thats just disadvantageous for the mafia, since now theres around 2-4 non-hittable 3rd party characters, 2 potential medic prot targets and potentially a vet. No point in either mafia or town finding assassins either, so basically this just creates two games, which doesn't improve gameplay imo.
You are assuming that every SK is going to be in a position to know who is Town and who is Scum. This rarely happens even up to end game scenarios.
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On February 11 2011 16:23 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 15:27 Incognito wrote:
Agree with Foolishness here. Third parties just add too much volatility to the game that imo don't help gameplay too much. Distracts town from actually knowing what their win condition is, and just makes town hope SK does the dirty work for them. Just look at PYP3. Besides BC, town didn't deserve to win anything. Yet they still got close because SK was being pro-town. At the same time, mafia just has to hope SK isn't smart enough to target them, since they're pretty much powerless to eliminate the SK even if they know who he is. The only way to eliminate him is by lynch, and most times town isn't going to be up for letting that happen.
Also as with Qatol's first point, its really hard to win with SK. If I got an SK in a 30 person game, I wouldn't be too inclined to play seriously. So many things can go wrong, and I'm going to have an extremely difficult time trying to make everything play out the right way. It will take days/weeks of effort to actually win, but if anything goes wrong, my chances of winning could vaporize in an instant. With this sort of payoff, is it worth it? Probably not. Might as well mess around and just get a good laugh out of it instead of potentially getting an ulcer trying to win the game.
If SK is actually trying to win the game, then the SK has a balancing effect on the game. If town is doing poorly, SK is going to be pro-town. If mafia is getting obliterated, SK is going to try to shoot some townies. Which gives town/mafia the option of playing a mediocre game and still getting away with it. So in essence, smart serious SK allows the rest of the town/mafia to slack off and play a mediocre game and still be ok, while a non-serious SK just makes the game volatile. No reason to have SKs imo.
As for assassins, I'm not sure how this mechanic helps the game. First, it adds a bunch of KP to the game, making it volatile. Second, if they're made bulletproof, thats just disadvantageous for the mafia, since now theres around 2-4 non-hittable 3rd party characters, 2 potential medic prot targets and potentially a vet. No point in either mafia or town finding assassins either, so basically this just creates two games, which doesn't improve gameplay imo. You are assuming that every SK is going to be in a position to know who is Town and who is Scum. This rarely happens even up to end game scenarios.
If the SK is good, he can have a general idea of who is who. If the SK isn't good and is still trying to win, then this just gets to the volatility thing. Could throw the game either way depending on who the hits are. Even if SK has some reasonably informed hits, it still allows the possibility that the losing side gets a big break.
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Even good SKs rarely get all their reads correct. Even so a 3rd faction killing both sides isn't an issue to me. The Town, a long with the Mafia don't change up their methods of winning because an SK exists.
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On February 11 2011 14:51 Ace wrote:
I agree with 1.) but not A.) and certainly not 2.
Mafia, even if they know the presence of an SK don't have to Night Kill anyone if they don't want to. Sure, deconduo NKing someone makes it easier for the SK to win but Mafia aren't forced to NK. The role is hard to win with because it requires a balancing act and some luck. This is exactly why SKs are bulletproof and show up innocent. If we could go back in time I still wouldn't force deconduo to NK if he didn't want to. Also JimboSilvers was still in decent position to win as the Town was still in LYLO. He had options for sure.
As for 2 that doesn't happen often. SKs are rarely outted early on unless it's known there is one in the game or they do something to make themselves known. That could be getting caught in a lie about being a Vigilante, attracting too much NK attention and living, or even playing in a funny way. Even so when they mess up I rarely see them screw the other 2 sides over apart from maybe 2 games on TL. Those few instances where SKs sell their services in attempt to screw the Town/Mafia are hard to moderate since the SKs may be thinking they can live longer and in fact further their Win Condition. Otherwise a hidden SK that outs himself purposely to screw over one of the other factions should be modkilled and this won't be an issue.
b.) is what I was just talking about (in Insane Mafia I think). Really though Town should just lynch an SK at that point. Part of it can be blamed on LD I guess, but most of the blame has to go on town at that point for being so damn stupid.
If c.) happens oh well. If it gets down to 4 players with a known SK then really what happened before that to let an outted SK live so long?
If the SK lives to the late game then they deserve it. Assassin was just a boring role. I think I was in a game with them and really didn't care about their WC. It was also a broken role that could affect the game just as much as an SK could. Having a game within a game doesn't seem to work well in Mafia imo.
b. Seems to be the most common occurrence. It just comes down to how the town decides to deal with the situation. That is the difference between PYP2 and Mafia XXXVI. In one, the town just lynched the SK. In the other, they let him live (which I agree probably wasn't the right move).
c. This was just a hypothetical example, but there is no reason the mafia couldn't have just outed the SK the day/night before (they would know because they tried to hit him) or someone like BC from PYP3 didn't just step up and figure it all out. I was just trying to make the point that there can be situations in which each of the three factions cannot win but they have the chance to decide who the winner will be. I think we should make an effort to minimize these situations.
The reason that I suggested Assassins is twofold:
1. In your OP you wanted more SKs. I assume this is to force players to do more analysis. I was countering by saying I would rather have Assassins than more SKs. They still add KP to the game without giving it to the town or mafia, they still require analysis to use correctly (forcing people to develop healthy habits), especially if you take away the rolecheck ability, but they don't have quite as devastating an effect on the end game.
2. The trend in current games seems to be towards including SKs. I think this is a better alternative for the host who already has decided they want to add third party players to their game. I agree with Incognito that making them bulletproof might not be the best idea. That was just a random suggestion to point out that they can act very similar to SKs, but without the flaws that I pointed out earlier (at least not to the same extent).
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Well I would definitely agree with losing the role check ability if you want Assassins. I'm still not sure about their objective though. If they end up killing random people I'm fine with that if it leads to more thinking.
I don't know why everyone is including SKs now  They are imo better used once in a while. 3rd party is ok, but SKs themselves every game can be annoying. So I think we'd both agree on that.
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I know i'm retarded, but I accidently roleclaimed in orgah mafia in a pm which is against the rules. In orgah, you cannot reveal or even claim anything about your role, but you can do it in the thread. Also in orgah, there are no flips. i was having a hard time trying to contribute anything in the thread and I felt like I might get more done in PM, which was when I accidently sent a message about my abilities. I think either no pms, or free open pms are the best way to go.
The other thing is that PM's encourage game play. Like when I feel I'm involved and in direct communication with someone, then I am more encouraged to play. In a game with no information revealed upon death, I think being able to communicate freely and openly behind the scenes is fun and really makes the game more interesting.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
This isn't really related to future game setup, rather a request for future hosts. Would you guys mind trying to remember to update the OP at the conclusion of the game with the role lists? Having to dig through the last 10 pages of a thread trying to look up a certain players role or alignment during a past game can sometimes get rather tedious, especially if there are multiple games to look up. Thanks!
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100% agreed, thats why I started doing that in my games. Put them in spoilers too so people reading the game don't see the results unless they want to.
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I just link to the wrapup posts in the OP. People can click the link if they want the spoiler.
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EPT
