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The Creep Conundrum

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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1 2 Next All
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-29 18:28:44
November 05 2010 22:28 GMT
#1
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Superouman
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
France2195 Posts
November 05 2010 22:40 GMT
#2
Post this on battle.net forums, blizzard have to see this.
This problem shouldn't even exist, really bad job from blizzard here
Search "[SO]" on B.net to find all my maps ||| Cloud Kingdom / Turbo Cruise '84 / Bone Temple / Eternal Empire / Zen / Purity and Industry / Golden Wall / Fortitude / Beckett Industries / Waterfall
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3700 Posts
November 05 2010 22:57 GMT
#3
NO, not really bad job from Blizzard (we love Blizzard, they gave us Starcraft), its just that there are limits with having a grid system instead of being able to place buildings absolutely everywhere. It's a question of where is the center of the creep-circle.

The problem is that to fix it they're either gonna have to mess with the diameter of creep generated by all buildings (enlarge/shrink so that the building is the same distance from all edges of the circle, so trim off a bit of the bottom left part) or they're going to keep the diameter the same, but make the creep generate so that the circle is equidistant from the centre.

Its like a pylon. Imagine if pylon power originated 1 hex to the west and 1 hex to the south, how do you solve the problem? = same thing
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
Archas
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6531 Posts
November 05 2010 23:02 GMT
#4
On November 06 2010 07:57 bITt.mAN wrote:
NO, not really bad job from Blizzard (we love Blizzard, they gave us Starcraft), its just that there are limits with having a grid system instead of being able to place buildings absolutely everywhere. It's a question of where is the center of the creep-circle.

The problem is that to fix it they're either gonna have to mess with the diameter of creep generated by all buildings (enlarge/shrink so that the building is the same distance from all edges of the circle, so trim off a bit of the bottom left part) or they're going to keep the diameter the same, but make the creep generate so that the circle is equidistant from the centre.

Its like a pylon. Imagine if pylon power originated 1 hex to the west and 1 hex to the south, how do you solve the problem? = same thing

While this is pretty much /thread material here, Blizzard should still be made aware of the issue. Nothing wrong with slapping this up on the B.Net forums and seeing what they can do to resolve it.
The room is ripe with the stench of bitches!
optical630
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom768 Posts
November 05 2010 23:29 GMT
#5
main thing is needing 2 tumours for one of the spawn location on scrap station to get to the bottom of the ramp, iirc its the bottom location.
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
November 06 2010 00:15 GMT
#6
I have like a 5 min. break from a serious crunch at work and I jump on TL, scan the Custom Maps sidebar and see a thread titled "The Creep Conundrum" and I thought I'd find a wacky UMS map about playing as non-Zerg and trying to fight off waves of creep, or some ludicrous puzzle game based on creep.

So first of all, I'd like to officially request from a the community a creep-focused UMS map!

Okay, to the thread at hand: Barrin is definitely a perfectionist as he already stated--and if you follow the link to his VARS map symmetry thread I think funcmode's reply is relevant to this discussion also. To paraphrase: there may be a bazillion minor differences between spawns on a map, but devoid of major advantages it is generally OK because the players' actions have much, much more impact on the outcome of the game. I think the creep offset, too, doesn't break any particular spawn layouts.

That said, it is good to know about this issue and so any good map maker should at least think about it. I didn't know about the offset from the creep generator, but as a habit I place a hatchery at every base on my maps to see where the usable creep is, what parts of the base are out of creep sight, etc.

And we know at least two key issues that should be checked that the creep offset can affect: make sure the number of creep tumors to connect the main to the natural is the same for every spawn, and that the opportunity to defend with crawlers is the same (minerals, main chokes, all of that).

The problem with creep tumors is that sometimes the range of the tumor lands in an unpathable area, like the map cells where a cliff transitions up or down, and so even though the distance between the main and nat is almost the same, one square more or less of creep can change the number of tumors needed to "get over" the cliff. So keep this in mind!

@Barrin: you are ridiculous, nice find
emc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3088 Posts
November 06 2010 00:59 GMT
#7
the main thing is that mappers need to take into consideration how creep spreads, that's the point of this thread. Maps like Scrap Station and XC are a problem for Zerg because the positions aren't equal for creep spreading. The way creep spreads isn't the problem or where the location of the tumor is, the problem is that some maps have favorable spawn locations for optimal creep spread where others do not. Mapping in this editor isn't perfect, but with enough play testing I think some maps out there could be close to perfection.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-06 06:14:54
November 06 2010 05:58 GMT
#8
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-1equalsexp(ipi)
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada118 Posts
November 06 2010 06:12 GMT
#9
Since I'm a map maker I will post here.

You can fix this issue by going into footprints and changing the creep tumor footprint. For some bizzare reason blizzard chose an even number instead of an odd number for the footprint size for creep tumors, which causes the problem.

In the map I made, Hero Attack, the creep tumors do not have this issue because I changed the footprint size.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
November 06 2010 06:16 GMT
#10
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Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-09 02:58:23
November 06 2010 06:47 GMT
#11
--- Nuked ---
koslain
Profile Joined September 2010
United States70 Posts
November 06 2010 07:37 GMT
#12
done and done, good work swarm
-1equalsexp(ipi)
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada118 Posts
November 06 2010 20:53 GMT
#13
"O.O Thanks dude!"

You can thank me by playing hero attack (it's on the fourth page of the north american server).

Also, I just want to say that it's not the footprint that the creep tumor has directly. Rather the creep tumor has a generate creep behaviour and this behaviour has a creep grown footprint. The creep grown footprint is a problem because they made it even rather than odd.
Qwix
Profile Joined October 2010
531 Posts
November 06 2010 21:16 GMT
#14
Cool discovery, as you stated it doesn't matter that much but i guess it would be better off fixed.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
November 06 2010 22:45 GMT
#15
e^ipi-+1=0, what you're saying is that you made the creep behavior originate at an odd number (in the center of the tumor)? Or that you enlarged the creep circle by 1?

If it's the former, you effectively decrease the creep radius by 1 because the properly centered circle reaches to a fractional radius.

Either way you change the amount of creep you get. Is it better to have lopsided creep or misadjusted size creep?
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
-1equalsexp(ipi)
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada118 Posts
November 07 2010 06:21 GMT
#16
What I'm saying is that the creep tumor has a behaviour called 'Zerg - Creep Growth Medium'. This behaviour has a footprint called 4x4 creep source grown. Blizzard made creep source grown a 20 by 20 footprint (an even size). If you go to the footprint in galaxy editor you can change the size of the footprint (either to 19 by 19 or 21 by 21). If you go to placement apply and placement check for the footprint you will see a blue circle (well rather a pixelized circle). To make the creep centered around the creep tumor you will have to change the footprint size to an odd number and then adjust this circle.

The only way you can fix this problem is by changing the size of the creep the creep tumor generated (or alternatively you could increase the size of the creep tumor from 1x1 to 2x2). So yes, there is a choice. Do you want the same sized creep or non-lopsided creep?
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-09 02:58:58
November 07 2010 10:32 GMT
#17
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RedTerror
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand742 Posts
November 07 2010 11:09 GMT
#18
meh, its creep, it doesn't need to be perfect. In fact it's more realistic if it isn't perfect
Lotar
Profile Joined September 2010
132 Posts
November 08 2010 00:11 GMT
#19
That would be a valid argument if the creep was randomly lopsided, which isn't the case. If I understand this thread correctly, a Zerg player spawning on top will spread creep faster than a Zerg player spawning at the bottom of the map.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
November 08 2010 18:17 GMT
#20
LOL I just made a (closed) thread trying to figure out more about creep spread a couple days ago :p Anyway great find. I liked your post on BNET.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
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