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This is a riddle that has plagued me for about 10 years and I think I finally found a satisfying solution; I believe I finally understood it.
"You are a total prisoner of an unknown mage. You slowly realize that there is absolutely no escape and then the mage gives you a lever and tells you that it is connected to an identical one in an identical prison with an identical prisoner. He says that as long as the lever remains unpressed you both remain in the prison. But when someone actually decides to press it then the other prisoner dies and the remaining one goes free. The prison is rather tormenting and both prisoners really want to get out. What will eventually happen? It actually depends on the person that you ask. What is your solution to the problem? What would you do? What would the average person do? What happens? Does the end justify the means? THINK ABOUT IT!" The solution gets more awesome the more I think about it.
Btw, I first saw a version of this riddle in Baldur's Gate II.
Edit: The other prisoner learns this at the same time as you do. The mage can make you really "know" that everything that is written is true.
Important edit: I got confused and gave the other version of the riddle before the main one.
The main one is this - the more you stay in the prison the more you suffer. The moment one prisoner presses the lever he dies and the other is no longer a prisoner.
Both versions are cool.
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8748 Posts
You were so excited to post this that you forgot to explain your solution!
As for me, I wouldn't trust the mage. Is there any reason to trust him? Then it's just a question of whether or not I want to play his games. And yeah, I would. So I'd pull the lever.
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John Nash would laugh and tell you to google the answer and read up on game theory which is awesome.
PS: I'd jump on the lever in microseconds.
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why wouldn't I press it as fast as i can? isn't there supposed to be some incentive for both not pressing?
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Are you talking at the end of SoA where Irenicus imprisons you?
BG2 was the best
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if you pull the lever, how does the other prisoner die, painlessly? if so, i would pull the lever instantly in order to end both of our sufferings as soon as possible.
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On July 19 2010 07:18 geometryb wrote:
why wouldn't I press it as fast as i can? isn't there supposed to be some incentive for both not pressing?
Yes, it's not a proper instance of the prisoner's dilemma. Arguably the incentive might be to "not make yourself guilty of murder" I guess.
In my case I'll just assume that the "identical" prisoner isn't to be trusted, and I'd kill him... but he's identical so he'd push the lever at the same time... MIND FFFFFFU
Hopefully I'm faster than my identical self.
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the solution is to wait for batman to stop the joker obviously
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United States42930 Posts
I would press it immediately and not feel guilty. If the prison is torturous then I'm not taking much away from the person I'm killing while I'm gaining a huge amount myself. Equally if they pressed it I wouldn't be all that pissed off because they're pretty blameless. I'd save my anger for the mage.
On a slightly related note, the term prisoner's dilemma usually refers to an example of game theory.
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On July 19 2010 07:22 mahnini wrote:
the solution is to wait for batman to stop the joker obviously
lawl
that part of the movie was the only thing that bothered me though, you'd think the joker would have made it so both boats automatically blow up rather than requiring his manual activation
here's a game theory form
+ Show Spoiler +Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated the prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies for the prosecution against the other (defects) and the other remains silent (cooperates), the defector goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
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Isn't the dilemma the fact that it's an identical prisoner in the other cell? thus in x amount of time that you pull the lever so will have the identical prisoner. For that reason I would chill out with the mage and continue to suffer until a situation presented itself I guess.
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If the identical prisoner pulls the lever at the same time then the dilemma is just die or stay in jail so it depends... If you ever pull the lever you die and so does he, and he knows it too...
Being in jail forever imo is worse than dying.
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Duh, just cast Expelliarmus on the wizard...
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well, when the wizard gives you the lever and explain it's use to you, he isn't with the other guy, so even if the other prisoner is identical to you, he has no clue of what the lever does at the same time as you do. The proof is, well, if he knew before you did, you would be dead.
So, asuming there's only one wizard, you can pull the lever as soon as the wizard gives it to you, the other guy will not do it since he doesn't know what it does
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United States42930 Posts
On July 19 2010 07:23 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 07:22 mahnini wrote:
the solution is to wait for batman to stop the joker obviously lawl that part of the movie was the only thing that bothered me though, you'd think the joker would have made it so both boats automatically blow up rather than requiring his manual activation here's a game theory form + Show Spoiler +Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated the prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies for the prosecution against the other (defects) and the other remains silent (cooperates), the defector goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
There's a British tv show based on that principle. They whittle contestants down to two people and then they have to share or steal the prize money. If both choose share then they split it. If one steals and the other shares the stealer gets everything. If both steal both get nothing. Of course it's always better to steal from your perspective, you never lose by stealing and sometimes you win. But both people know this which means if both of them act optimally then nobody ever gets any money. Whereas if both act sub optimally then both profit from it. It's pretty cool.
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You pull that lever in 0.1 seconds flat.
How is this even a dilemma?
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On July 19 2010 07:35 kzn wrote:
You pull that lever in 0.1 seconds flat.
How is this even a dilemma?
My thoughts exactly lol.
Unless you are suicidal.
Then wait a hour, and then press if if your still alive.
I think you have it confused. Its only a dilemma if your both freed if neither of you press it.
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On July 19 2010 07:17 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
You were so excited to post this that you forgot to explain your solution!
As for me, I wouldn't trust the mage. Is there any reason to trust him? Then it's just a question of whether or not I want to play his games. And yeah, I would. So I'd pull the lever.
He can make you 'know' things. What is written is all true to you and you absolutely know it.
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On July 19 2010 07:23 GGTeMpLaR wrote:here's a game theory form + Show Spoiler +Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated the prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies for the prosecution against the other (defects) and the other remains silent (cooperates), the defector goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
well if they're working together, clearly they should both remain silent. otherwise it depends on how well they know each other. if you think the other guy is going to talk, then it's in your best interest to talk as well.
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On July 19 2010 07:23 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 07:22 mahnini wrote:
the solution is to wait for batman to stop the joker obviously lawl that part of the movie was the only thing that bothered me though, you'd think the joker would have made it so both boats automatically blow up rather than requiring his manual activation here's a game theory form + Show Spoiler +Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated the prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies for the prosecution against the other (defects) and the other remains silent (cooperates), the defector goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?
This is completely different. I'd rather have people forget about this dillema for this topic.
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EPT
