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I have been watching a lot of casts and replays of ZvT games and have deduced that a lot of people are making critical errors with use of Banelings.
I just watched Day[9]'s commentary on Match 1/3 of Day[9] vs Tasteless and couldn't help but to cringe at the use of Banelings, it was abysmal, to say the least.
A few days into beta, I remember whinging about MMM balls, as i struggled to counter it. Suddenly i realized something, and instantly, MMM was no longer a threat.
These are the three key things;
#1 - Banelings detonate on death
Getting them to 0/30hp simply forces them to detonate. It seems a lot of people do not know this, assuming that killing them means they wont explode. (Day[9] showed this by the fact he saw Nick focus fire his Baneling and was confused when Nicks Marines still died)
#2 - Banelings are excellent damage tanks
When a Baneling with 30hp detonates on an enemy. You just lost 30hp of damage tanking for the rest of your army. This is ABSOLUTELY BAD. This is 30hp of damage output your enemies army will be putting onto Mutas/Hydra/Lings instead of your Baneling, which is going to die anyway.
In conjunction with #1, you should almost NEVER actually Detonate on your own accord.
#3 - Banelings MUST kill the correct units
Terran players will always keep their Marauders in the front, to absorb the Baneling hits. This is very cost effective as 1 Marauder can absorb 7 Banelings (350/175). If you simply attack move, all a Terran need do is walk 1 Marauder forward away from anything else, and he just traded 100/25 for 350/175.
Using knowledge from #1 and #2, you should only use the Move command on your Banelings. Never actually tell them to blow up. Make them run towards the Marines!
At the very worst, the Banelings will be killed before they can get to the Marines, causing them to blow up on the Marauders as they would have with Attack Move anyway.
If you do this correctly, you will be able to get a surround on the Marines, which which incidently get killed when they shoot the Banelings. Make sure that even when your Banelings are surrounding Marines, you do not Attack Move or Detonate. Even feel free to run your main army back.
Even if the enemies army begins to run away, just keep on walking/rolling by their side, assuming you can keep up. They will eventually have to stop and shoot you, which will blow the marines up.
You should Attack Move or Detonate if;
- Your opponent is NOT attacking your Banelings, and focus firing the rest of your units (very unlikely).
- You have lots of Banes around their Marines and they decide to Stim and run away (faster than you can chase).
- You are near the units your want to destroy and he is using amazing micro to split them into lots of little groups. Detonate on them before they can split.
- You have a really healthy surround on their Marines, then you should detonate 2 or 3.
Conclusion
The result of all this is that you Move your Banelings towards their army (specifically units they counter), and just dance around. They will act as damage tanks, keeping the rest of your army alive. Also able to move past the Marauder Wall and hit the units that they are strong against (and you need to take out - ie. Marines to stop killing Mutalisks). This also works wonders in ZvZ if you have Mutalisks and he counters with Hydralisks.
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Once Banelings get speed upgrade, all of these logics are negligible. =) Man aren't they fast!
I want to see more Zerg to play burrowed Banelings btw. Stop Lurkers did terrible, terrible damage to SC1 Terran, why not here?
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i heard somewhere that banelings only detonate on death if they're attacking at the time, does anyone know if that's true?
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Very helpfull. I'm just a starting Zerg player, and so far I have been able to win quite a few matches with banelings since most low lvl players aren't used to them. This post will help me perfect my baneling micro :D
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On May 09 2010 22:30 kerpal wrote:
i heard somewhere that banelings only detonate on death if they're attacking at the time, does anyone know if that's true?
As i stated. Banelings can not be killed without Detonating.
I also stated that many people don't seem to know this, which you confirm.
On May 09 2010 22:29 mrlie3 wrote:
Once Banelings get speed upgrade, all of these logics are negligible. =) Man aren't they fast!
No, once speed is upgraded, these three points become even more efficient and powerful.
On May 09 2010 22:31 Amestir wrote:
This post will help me perfect my baneling micro :D
It's really simple to do, and it always makes me smile, it's just so amazingly effective.
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Yep just tested, banelings who are told to move will explode on death doing the same damage they would normally do. Definitely changing the way im handling banelings. Awesome thread!
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thx for this, i appreciate these infos as a zerg player
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Thanks a lot! I was always unsure of how they were meant to be used (well, aside from the obvious) and I never thought of using them as tanks- I mean if I just keep them around the enemy they will detonate and die but do a bit of tanking first, just like you said! Fantastic!
Will have to try and use them more, I'm awful at it.
Could you link the games you mentioned though? :D So I can see how NOT to use them!
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I've always known this but a-clicking is such a habit in the heat of things.
This was very well written, and not immediately obvious for most players. Very good job.
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I agree with most of this, but its sometime (rarely) acceptable to detonate manually. For example :
1. Your bannelings are under the fungal growth spell and about to die, theres an opposing unit nearby. (very rare)
2. Your zergling are completly surrounding your target already, detonating the banneling coud do some good damage aniway. (less rare but you messed up micro a little if you're in this situation)
3. Banneling bursting where you sent some zergling first (to soak damage or because you messed up) and your bannelings are unable to "attack" the structure but still close enough that a manual detonation would hit.
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On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
1. Your bannelings are under the fungal growth spell and about to die, theres an opposing unit nearby. (very rare)
Due to #1, they will Detonate anyway. There is no point to manually do it.
On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
2. Your zergling are completly surrounding your target already, detonating the banneling coud do some good damage aniway. (less rare but you messed up micro a little if you're in this situation)
Detonating behind a wall of Zerglings is a bit of a waste too, as Banelings have little splash, and it would only hit a 1-3 enemies at max. Remember, Banelings are expensive. It's better to lose 3 Zerglings than a Baneling. If you think you need the Banelings to Detonate on the enemies to win, its a better idea to pull the Zerglings off and Move into the enemy ball, then re-engage with your Zerglings.
On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
3. Banneling bursting where you sent some zergling first (to soak damage or because you messed up) and your bannelings are unable to "attack" the structure but still close enough that a manual detonation would hit.
Manually detonating each one as it gets into range seems a bit micro intensive, and you might accidentally blow up out of range. Again, I'd just pull the Zerglings back.
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I think he means if the banelings are at 50% hp, unable to move, and a unit is about to move away from them. If you don't detonate you'll lose the baneling and deal no damage.
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On May 10 2010 00:10 chiss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
1. Your bannelings are under the fungal growth spell and about to die, theres an opposing unit nearby. (very rare) Due to #1, they will Detonate anyway. There is no point to manually do it.
Fungal growth does damage over time, meaning that even though they will eventually die, it'll take time. Detonating manually might kill enemy units faster than waiting for the fungal growth to do enough damage. Also, the enemy might realize that they will eventually blow up and simply move them away before they blow up.
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very interesting article.
i'll do even more banelings now !
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great find, thanks alot! 
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One could argue that detonating as soon as you've got the banelings mixed with his marine ball would be a more effective tank, given that killing a unit prevents it from doing any damage to anything. Not to mention, the less time he has to dance his marines the better off you are. Marines have the advantage of speed and range vs baneling micro. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense so they say.
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United States7166 Posts
many people dont realize how cost-effective and practically effective banelings are vs clumped marauders. if you do the math and factor in that they kill groups of marauders instantly, it's more than worthwhile to use banelings vs them
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On May 10 2010 01:40 Generico wrote:
One could argue that detonating as soon as you've got the banelings mixed with his marine ball would be a more effective tank, given that killing a unit prevents it from doing any damage to anything. Not to mention, the less time he has to dance his marines the better off you are. Marines have the advantage of speed and range vs baneling micro.
This was my initial approach this logic too, however;
- Units tend to auto-fire on the closest thing
- Enemies often try to run when the Banelings get close (giving your army free hits while your Banelings just run along beside them)
- 50/25 per Baneling is quite costly, and its better to take SOME damage on your other units than to lose your Banelings, for obvious reasons. Damaged units heal. Dead Banelings do not.
Really, its very situational. As you said, detonating can be better sometimes. However, i have found through my games, the Banelings tend to get shot up pretty damn quickly (as opposed to your other units), so it's not a big issue.
You'd think stimmed MMM could cause issues in terms of out-ranging and out-running. However when you have Mutalisks/Speedlings on them, they cant afford to stop and fire or the Banes will catch up. So while they run, Mutalisks can pick off the Marines, and Zerglings can get a nice surround and do damage.
In short, the MMM have very little options but to just attack and try to micro to minimize casualties (which isn't going to happen!).
On May 10 2010 01:50 Zelniq wrote:
many people dont realize how cost-effective and practically effective banelings are vs clumped marauders. if you do the math and factor in that they kill groups of marauders instantly, it's more than worthwhile to use banelings vs them
Yes and no.
I'd consider hitting 4 Marauders with a Baneling Detonation to be an 'good hit'. Due to their bigger size, less will fit into the radius of the Detonation.
Marauders cost 100/25 and have 125hp
Banelings do 25 damage to them
Therefor in this 'ideal' hit against Marauders, you are doing 20/5 resources worth of damage to each of the 4 Marauders. That is 80/20. So yes, this can be 'worthwhile', however i think in a realistic situation you will find that Banes, at the very best, will come out about even in the amount of resources lost and killed. Also, realise that this 80/20 loss would only occur after each of the 5 Marauders actually die. Until then, you have lost money, and he has not.
Play a ZvT with a friend and get ANY multiple of 2 Banelings (100/50) per 1 Marauder (100/25). I almost guarantee that the Marauders will survive after all the Banelings have exploded every time, despite being cheaper. I personally haven't tested this, but I'm almost certain it would be the case.
However, the kicker here is that the Marauders serve as a damage tank more than DPS in these situations. I personally use Banelings as support for Zerglings or Mutalisks. Both of these are extremely good counters to Marauders, and mediocre against Marines. So the ideal use of the Banes is to take down the Marines, leaving the Marauders (which probably took a few Baneling hits as they rolled past anyway) to be killed by your army.
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Great points and I will definitely try to incorporate this.. By the way, I think you should add this strat which seems to be a bit underused:
burrow banelings then draw the enemy back across them, so you can pop up inside the marine ball, this seems the best way to get maximum damage. Also it doesn't seem like banelings are used very much for area control like spider mines were, even though it seems they could fill that role fine with enough micro.
Also I think one of the main uses of the manual detonation is for when they're burrowed (which, I think still works?)
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great post....i'll keep this in mind when playing zerg
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EPT
