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I have been watching a lot of casts and replays of ZvT games and have deduced that a lot of people are making critical errors with use of Banelings.
I just watched Day[9]'s commentary on Match 1/3 of Day[9] vs Tasteless and couldn't help but to cringe at the use of Banelings, it was abysmal, to say the least.
A few days into beta, I remember whinging about MMM balls, as i struggled to counter it. Suddenly i realized something, and instantly, MMM was no longer a threat.
These are the three key things;
#1 - Banelings detonate on death
Getting them to 0/30hp simply forces them to detonate. It seems a lot of people do not know this, assuming that killing them means they wont explode. (Day[9] showed this by the fact he saw Nick focus fire his Baneling and was confused when Nicks Marines still died)
#2 - Banelings are excellent damage tanks
When a Baneling with 30hp detonates on an enemy. You just lost 30hp of damage tanking for the rest of your army. This is ABSOLUTELY BAD. This is 30hp of damage output your enemies army will be putting onto Mutas/Hydra/Lings instead of your Baneling, which is going to die anyway.
In conjunction with #1, you should almost NEVER actually Detonate on your own accord.
#3 - Banelings MUST kill the correct units
Terran players will always keep their Marauders in the front, to absorb the Baneling hits. This is very cost effective as 1 Marauder can absorb 7 Banelings (350/175). If you simply attack move, all a Terran need do is walk 1 Marauder forward away from anything else, and he just traded 100/25 for 350/175.
Using knowledge from #1 and #2, you should only use the Move command on your Banelings. Never actually tell them to blow up. Make them run towards the Marines!
At the very worst, the Banelings will be killed before they can get to the Marines, causing them to blow up on the Marauders as they would have with Attack Move anyway.
If you do this correctly, you will be able to get a surround on the Marines, which which incidently get killed when they shoot the Banelings. Make sure that even when your Banelings are surrounding Marines, you do not Attack Move or Detonate. Even feel free to run your main army back.
Even if the enemies army begins to run away, just keep on walking/rolling by their side, assuming you can keep up. They will eventually have to stop and shoot you, which will blow the marines up.
You should Attack Move or Detonate if;
- Your opponent is NOT attacking your Banelings, and focus firing the rest of your units (very unlikely).
- You have lots of Banes around their Marines and they decide to Stim and run away (faster than you can chase).
- You are near the units your want to destroy and he is using amazing micro to split them into lots of little groups. Detonate on them before they can split.
- You have a really healthy surround on their Marines, then you should detonate 2 or 3.
Conclusion
The result of all this is that you Move your Banelings towards their army (specifically units they counter), and just dance around. They will act as damage tanks, keeping the rest of your army alive. Also able to move past the Marauder Wall and hit the units that they are strong against (and you need to take out - ie. Marines to stop killing Mutalisks). This also works wonders in ZvZ if you have Mutalisks and he counters with Hydralisks.
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Once Banelings get speed upgrade, all of these logics are negligible. =) Man aren't they fast!
I want to see more Zerg to play burrowed Banelings btw. Stop Lurkers did terrible, terrible damage to SC1 Terran, why not here?
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i heard somewhere that banelings only detonate on death if they're attacking at the time, does anyone know if that's true?
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Very helpfull. I'm just a starting Zerg player, and so far I have been able to win quite a few matches with banelings since most low lvl players aren't used to them. This post will help me perfect my baneling micro :D
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On May 09 2010 22:30 kerpal wrote:
i heard somewhere that banelings only detonate on death if they're attacking at the time, does anyone know if that's true?
As i stated. Banelings can not be killed without Detonating.
I also stated that many people don't seem to know this, which you confirm.
On May 09 2010 22:29 mrlie3 wrote:
Once Banelings get speed upgrade, all of these logics are negligible. =) Man aren't they fast!
No, once speed is upgraded, these three points become even more efficient and powerful.
On May 09 2010 22:31 Amestir wrote:
This post will help me perfect my baneling micro :D
It's really simple to do, and it always makes me smile, it's just so amazingly effective.
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Yep just tested, banelings who are told to move will explode on death doing the same damage they would normally do. Definitely changing the way im handling banelings. Awesome thread!
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thx for this, i appreciate these infos as a zerg player
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Thanks a lot! I was always unsure of how they were meant to be used (well, aside from the obvious) and I never thought of using them as tanks- I mean if I just keep them around the enemy they will detonate and die but do a bit of tanking first, just like you said! Fantastic!
Will have to try and use them more, I'm awful at it.
Could you link the games you mentioned though? :D So I can see how NOT to use them!
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I've always known this but a-clicking is such a habit in the heat of things.
This was very well written, and not immediately obvious for most players. Very good job.
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I agree with most of this, but its sometime (rarely) acceptable to detonate manually. For example :
1. Your bannelings are under the fungal growth spell and about to die, theres an opposing unit nearby. (very rare)
2. Your zergling are completly surrounding your target already, detonating the banneling coud do some good damage aniway. (less rare but you messed up micro a little if you're in this situation)
3. Banneling bursting where you sent some zergling first (to soak damage or because you messed up) and your bannelings are unable to "attack" the structure but still close enough that a manual detonation would hit.
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On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
1. Your bannelings are under the fungal growth spell and about to die, theres an opposing unit nearby. (very rare)
Due to #1, they will Detonate anyway. There is no point to manually do it.
On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
2. Your zergling are completly surrounding your target already, detonating the banneling coud do some good damage aniway. (less rare but you messed up micro a little if you're in this situation)
Detonating behind a wall of Zerglings is a bit of a waste too, as Banelings have little splash, and it would only hit a 1-3 enemies at max. Remember, Banelings are expensive. It's better to lose 3 Zerglings than a Baneling. If you think you need the Banelings to Detonate on the enemies to win, its a better idea to pull the Zerglings off and Move into the enemy ball, then re-engage with your Zerglings.
On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
3. Banneling bursting where you sent some zergling first (to soak damage or because you messed up) and your bannelings are unable to "attack" the structure but still close enough that a manual detonation would hit.
Manually detonating each one as it gets into range seems a bit micro intensive, and you might accidentally blow up out of range. Again, I'd just pull the Zerglings back.
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I think he means if the banelings are at 50% hp, unable to move, and a unit is about to move away from them. If you don't detonate you'll lose the baneling and deal no damage.
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On May 10 2010 00:10 chiss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 23:48 Thamoo wrote:
1. Your bannelings are under the fungal growth spell and about to die, theres an opposing unit nearby. (very rare) Due to #1, they will Detonate anyway. There is no point to manually do it.
Fungal growth does damage over time, meaning that even though they will eventually die, it'll take time. Detonating manually might kill enemy units faster than waiting for the fungal growth to do enough damage. Also, the enemy might realize that they will eventually blow up and simply move them away before they blow up.
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very interesting article.
i'll do even more banelings now !
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great find, thanks alot! 
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One could argue that detonating as soon as you've got the banelings mixed with his marine ball would be a more effective tank, given that killing a unit prevents it from doing any damage to anything. Not to mention, the less time he has to dance his marines the better off you are. Marines have the advantage of speed and range vs baneling micro. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense so they say.
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United States7166 Posts
many people dont realize how cost-effective and practically effective banelings are vs clumped marauders. if you do the math and factor in that they kill groups of marauders instantly, it's more than worthwhile to use banelings vs them
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On May 10 2010 01:40 Generico wrote:
One could argue that detonating as soon as you've got the banelings mixed with his marine ball would be a more effective tank, given that killing a unit prevents it from doing any damage to anything. Not to mention, the less time he has to dance his marines the better off you are. Marines have the advantage of speed and range vs baneling micro.
This was my initial approach this logic too, however;
- Units tend to auto-fire on the closest thing
- Enemies often try to run when the Banelings get close (giving your army free hits while your Banelings just run along beside them)
- 50/25 per Baneling is quite costly, and its better to take SOME damage on your other units than to lose your Banelings, for obvious reasons. Damaged units heal. Dead Banelings do not.
Really, its very situational. As you said, detonating can be better sometimes. However, i have found through my games, the Banelings tend to get shot up pretty damn quickly (as opposed to your other units), so it's not a big issue.
You'd think stimmed MMM could cause issues in terms of out-ranging and out-running. However when you have Mutalisks/Speedlings on them, they cant afford to stop and fire or the Banes will catch up. So while they run, Mutalisks can pick off the Marines, and Zerglings can get a nice surround and do damage.
In short, the MMM have very little options but to just attack and try to micro to minimize casualties (which isn't going to happen!).
On May 10 2010 01:50 Zelniq wrote:
many people dont realize how cost-effective and practically effective banelings are vs clumped marauders. if you do the math and factor in that they kill groups of marauders instantly, it's more than worthwhile to use banelings vs them
Yes and no.
I'd consider hitting 4 Marauders with a Baneling Detonation to be an 'good hit'. Due to their bigger size, less will fit into the radius of the Detonation.
Marauders cost 100/25 and have 125hp
Banelings do 25 damage to them
Therefor in this 'ideal' hit against Marauders, you are doing 20/5 resources worth of damage to each of the 4 Marauders. That is 80/20. So yes, this can be 'worthwhile', however i think in a realistic situation you will find that Banes, at the very best, will come out about even in the amount of resources lost and killed. Also, realise that this 80/20 loss would only occur after each of the 5 Marauders actually die. Until then, you have lost money, and he has not.
Play a ZvT with a friend and get ANY multiple of 2 Banelings (100/50) per 1 Marauder (100/25). I almost guarantee that the Marauders will survive after all the Banelings have exploded every time, despite being cheaper. I personally haven't tested this, but I'm almost certain it would be the case.
However, the kicker here is that the Marauders serve as a damage tank more than DPS in these situations. I personally use Banelings as support for Zerglings or Mutalisks. Both of these are extremely good counters to Marauders, and mediocre against Marines. So the ideal use of the Banes is to take down the Marines, leaving the Marauders (which probably took a few Baneling hits as they rolled past anyway) to be killed by your army.
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Great points and I will definitely try to incorporate this.. By the way, I think you should add this strat which seems to be a bit underused:
burrow banelings then draw the enemy back across them, so you can pop up inside the marine ball, this seems the best way to get maximum damage. Also it doesn't seem like banelings are used very much for area control like spider mines were, even though it seems they could fill that role fine with enough micro.
Also I think one of the main uses of the manual detonation is for when they're burrowed (which, I think still works?)
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great post....i'll keep this in mind when playing zerg
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Sweet, thanks man!! I had a nagging suspicion I was using banelings all wrong, this clears up a LOT.
One situation where you might want to explode manually though is when you nydus or drop the corner of your opponent's base, and you move your banelings into their mineral line. On second thought, maybe it'd just be better to move click then attack move once they have a good spread.
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You actually should never detonate when using burrowed banelings. Always just unburrow. It spreads better and is much more efficient.
To be honest banelings are overpowered vs terran right now. Bio is not viable because mass baneling completely rapes it.
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On May 10 2010 02:02 BladeRunner wrote:
Great points and I will definitely try to incorporate this.. By the way, I think you should add this strat which seems to be a bit underused:
burrow banelings then draw the enemy back across them, so you can pop up inside the marine ball, this seems the best way to get maximum damage. Also it doesn't seem like banelings are used very much for area control like spider mines were, even though it seems they could fill that role fine with enough micro.
Also I think one of the main uses of the manual detonation is for when they're burrowed (which, I think still works?)
First i will say, yes, Burrowed Detonation still works.
Burrowed Baneling Bombs can be very devastating (moreso than what I'm suggesting). However, they can also be quite risky and/or bad;
-Burrowed detonations can be VERY wasteful. Why? Because you may simply have more Banelings explode than are actually needed to kill the units above. If i have 12 Banelings burrowed and detonate under a group of Marines. It's likely 2 Banelings could have done sufficiently similar damage.
-If the enemy player happens to scan them, they will get so many free Baneling kills, which could instantly lose the game. This is based on luck, more than skill. You're also often guessing where the opponent will be walking too and relying on them doing so.
Now, I'm not saying Burrow is useless, because it's certainly not. However, I am suggesting that you NEVER Detonate while Burrowed.
Why? Due to #1.
Banelings Detonate when they die. It is MUCH safer to just Unburrow instead of Detonate. Most of them will Detonate due to being killed or just auto-attacking when unburrowed. BUT, in this situation, if you had more Banelings than necessary, you will be left with the ones that didn't Detonate.
My preferable use for Burrowed Baneling Bombs is for mini-traps. I will Burrow two Banelings right next to each other in key chokes (only 2 or 3) around the map. Here i am only investing a smaller amount of money, so i'm not RELYING on the opponent walking over me. However if they do, they can get a nasty surprise and lose a ton of Marines.
But in all honesty - I am happy to attack front on as I've explained above. It's very cost effective and it works wonders, not relying on luck or guessing.
Interesting Burrow Tactic;
If you suspect your opponent is going to be expanding soon (which should be fairly obvious), Burrow two Banelings in the middle of the mineral line. Once he saturates it with workers, it's time to make that 100/50 well worth its while.
On May 10 2010 02:11 Floophead_III wrote:
To be honest banelings are overpowered vs terran right now. Bio is not viable because mass baneling completely rapes it.
I think the issue is that 'unlimited selection' is making Terran players lazy and just clumping everything together. Microing and spreading units out into 4 groups would result in Banelings suddenly becoming much less effective.
On May 10 2010 02:07 YKK wrote:
One situation where you might want to explode manually though is when you nydus or drop the corner of your opponent's base, and you move your banelings into their mineral line. On second thought, maybe it'd just be better to move click then attack move once they have a good spread.
Indeed. Destroying a TON of workers is definitely the exception. I tend to Move into the mineral line until i have good coverage on the workers, then just hit Stop (or Attack Move)
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On May 10 2010 02:11 Floophead_III wrote:
You actually should never detonate when using burrowed banelings. Always just unburrow. It spreads better and is much more efficient.
To be honest banelings are overpowered vs terran right now. Bio is not viable because mass baneling completely rapes it.
mass baneling => banshee pwn ):
as terran i do not believe this statement to be true.
question: we know banelings do not splash each other. do they splash other units? ergo if i have 50 banelings in a land mine and my hydra engage mmm on top of them and i detonate because my micro sucks so hard, do my hydras get damaged?
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On May 10 2010 02:27 Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 02:11 Floophead_III wrote:
You actually should never detonate when using burrowed banelings. Always just unburrow. It spreads better and is much more efficient.
To be honest banelings are overpowered vs terran right now. Bio is not viable because mass baneling completely rapes it. mass baneling => banshee pwn ): as terran i do not believe this statement to be true. question: we know banelings do not splash each other. do they splash other units? ergo if i have 50 banelings in a land mine and my hydra engage mmm on top of them and i detonate because my micro sucks so hard, do my hydras get damaged?
Banelings do not damage friendly units.
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On May 10 2010 02:27 Wire wrote:
question: we know banelings do not splash each other. do they splash other units? ergo if i have 50 banelings in a land mine and my hydra engage mmm on top of them and i detonate because my micro sucks so hard, do my hydras get damaged?
No. Currently, Siege Tanks are the only unit that deal Splash Damage that damage yourself and allies with their attack.
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On May 09 2010 22:30 kerpal wrote:
i heard somewhere that banelings only detonate on death if they're attacking at the time, does anyone know if that's true?
they detonate when they lose all their HP , this is very common in ZvZ when you spam lings and 1 guy get Banelings , the guy without Banelings will send a single Ling to his Bling to force him to detonate making it ineffective
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On May 10 2010 02:37 OPSavioR wrote:
this is very common in ZvZ when you spam lings and 1 guy get Banelings , the guy without Banelings will send a single Ling to his Bling to force him to detonate making it ineffective
I love this match up and i love being on the Zergling only side of this micro. It's so intense trying to get his Banelings to detonate on 3 or less Zerglings.
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Chiss, very good thoughts. I play a lot of bling so I found this thread incredibly interesting and useful.
A couple things:
-As a few other people, notably Generico, have said, you're right about the blings being great damage tanks; however, if you have an opportunity for a kill shot, like if you've been moving alongside the rines for a while and you've actually got your blings interspersed through them, and the other guy is still manually targeting your other units (which only makes sense, cause if he kills the blings he's toast), then you're better off a-moving the blings (and obviously not manually detonating because, as you said, this is usually wasteful) instead of just letting him continue to snipe your army.
-Question: The first thing I thought of when I started reading your first post was blast radius. If you've got blings running alongside rines, they might not be close enough to do significant damage when they die--am I right?
-Floophead wrote:
To be honest banelings are overpowered vs terran right now. Bio is not viable because mass baneling completely rapes it.
Floop, I guess because there's a counter to one build, that makes it OP, right? Here's what is happening and will continue to happen: In the early beta, people used masses of single types of units; as time goes on, counters, counter-counters, and counter-counter-counters are making people less prone to using very homogeneous unit compositions. So, the point is, you might need to give up whatever build you've become attached to (i.e. pure bio) in order to keep up with the game.
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wow this is good stuff, thanks for the micro help!
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No, banelings actually are overpowered vs bio terran. There is no amount of micro you can do. Marauders, which are the supposed counter to banelings, don't even work. If you go pure marauder I can go pure baneling and still come out in good shape. Speedlings/mutas can clean up what banelings don't kill.
This isn't something that's open for discussion, it's a fact. I've played so much TvZ trying to make bio work vs banelings and you can't. Your best bet is to get thor/bio and hope to god z is stupid enough to:
a) suicide his mutas into your thors
b) suicide his banelings into your thors
c) not get infestors
Granted the infestor nerf makes early thor/bio pushes a lot stronger but I still think mass baneling/speedling should do fine because as long as most of the bio is gone thors become worthless vs lings. Once it reaches midgame infestors are out and it's gg.
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I had no idea banelings detonated upon death... Great tidbit of information there, thanks.
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On May 10 2010 04:26 Floophead_III wrote:
No, banelings actually are overpowered vs bio terran. There is no amount of micro you can do. Marauders, which are the supposed counter to banelings, don't even work. If you go pure marauder I can go pure baneling and still come out in good shape. Speedlings/mutas can clean up what banelings don't kill.
This isn't something that's open for discussion, it's a fact. I've played so much TvZ trying to make bio work vs banelings and you can't. Your best bet is to get thor/bio and hope to god z is stupid enough to:
a) suicide his mutas into your thors
b) suicide his banelings into your thors
c) not get infestors
Granted the infestor nerf makes early thor/bio pushes a lot stronger but I still think mass baneling/speedling should do fine because as long as most of the bio is gone thors become worthless vs lings. Once it reaches midgame infestors are out and it's gg.
This is where I see slow siege pushes working with bio imo. Get 5 siege tanks, make them target fire banelings, splash rapes them.
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Thanks for the info .
While we're at it, what do you think about banelings vs toss?
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On May 10 2010 05:08 peawok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 04:26 Floophead_III wrote:
No, banelings actually are overpowered vs bio terran. There is no amount of micro you can do. Marauders, which are the supposed counter to banelings, don't even work. If you go pure marauder I can go pure baneling and still come out in good shape. Speedlings/mutas can clean up what banelings don't kill.
This isn't something that's open for discussion, it's a fact. I've played so much TvZ trying to make bio work vs banelings and you can't. Your best bet is to get thor/bio and hope to god z is stupid enough to:
a) suicide his mutas into your thors
b) suicide his banelings into your thors
c) not get infestors
Granted the infestor nerf makes early thor/bio pushes a lot stronger but I still think mass baneling/speedling should do fine because as long as most of the bio is gone thors become worthless vs lings. Once it reaches midgame infestors are out and it's gg. This is where I see slow siege pushes working with bio imo. Get 5 siege tanks, make them target fire banelings, splash rapes them.
Yes but if you go tanks over thors you need marines to deal with mutas which means banelings are now 50x more effective. Perhaps it's possible but I haven't been able to make it work so far.
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so do you press m then left click or right click them?
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Great post. I never really put much thought into the fact that they explode on death, but this has really helped my use of banelings.
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Sweet post dude! Gonna try this out! Rarely use banelings, so this'll def help me optimize the use of them.
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Good post, incredibly helpful vs MMM.
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thx for this, i appreciate these infos as a protoss player
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Thanks for the information.
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if you dont detonate they can just micro to stim, back away and pick them off
and dead marines do no damage, why the hell would you not just kill them the instant you can
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On May 10 2010 06:02 poor newb wrote:
if you dont detonate they can just micro to stim, back away and pick them off
and dead marines do no damage, why the hell would you not just kill them the instant you can
You must have missed his point about banelings absorbing damage for your other units, not to mention the apm spent to target fire them.
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I still disagree with the "use banelings to tank" strategy.
Two banelings (60 HP) detonating in the middle of a marine cluster can easily kill 10 marines.
If you delay the detonation by 0.86 seconds, that gives all 10 marines a chance to fire 1 additional shot (60 damage). If the delay is more than 0.86 seconds, you're taking MORE damage by "allowing banelings to tank" than by allowing them to detonate immediately.
The main reason to use move instead of attack-move is when the opponent has microed his Marauders in front of his Marines. In this case, attack-move will cause your banelings to detonate harmlessly on marauders. However, this rationale has absolutely nothing to do with absorbing 30 damage per Baneling by "letting them tank".
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Burrowed banelings can have "unburrow" on autocast, turning them into Spider Mines.
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Yes. Spider mines that do only 30 damage in a smaller radius that cost gas.
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On May 09 2010 22:29 mrlie3 wrote:
Once Banelings get speed upgrade, all of these logics are negligible. =) Man aren't they fast!
I want to see more Zerg to play burrowed Banelings btw. Stop Lurkers did terrible, terrible damage to SC1 Terran, why not here?
What? How would speed make it negligible to intentionally not detonate on a few marauders instead of loads of marines?
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
hrm, i didn't know this and it seems like something everyone should read about. thanks for the post!
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there is a video of day9 playing against tasteless?
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Yeah, I always tell my banelings to attack specific targets near the middle of the ball, or I tell them to move and surround the targets I want them to hit. They tank damage for you and then explode on death.... so why even bother detonating them prematurely. Detonating banelings before they are optimally positioned is just a waste, so don't do it  (sometimes when you have enough banelings it doesn't matter though lol).
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This was something new for me! Thanks for the find.
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On May 10 2010 07:50 codewarrior wrote:
Burrowed banelings can have "unburrow" on autocast, turning them into Spider Mines.
Wait, really? That is so win.
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the thing about detonate is you shouldn't even use it when they're burrowed. if you simply unborrow under their army they will blow up anyway and if your banelings are out of range, they will chase down the near units. the only time to detonate is to kill ghosts are dark templar that you can't actually see so that the splash kils them
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This is a great post, I did not know this. Thank you OP.
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On May 10 2010 08:59 brinbran wrote:
the thing about detonate is you shouldn't even use it when they're burrowed. if you simply unborrow under their army they will blow up anyway and if your banelings are out of range, they will chase down the near units. the only time to detonate is to kill ghosts are dark templar that you can't actually see so that the splash kils them
Ah that's an interesting point. Not sure if I'm too fond of this as a T player though... I mean this is the opposite of how infested terrans in sc1 worked. And it makes stopping banelings pretty powerful since once they are near you shooting them doesn't even matter.
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Fantastic post, thanks for the tip.
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Well I would agree with never detonating them manually unless it is to kill a stealthed unit via splash.
But about only ever moving them:
It really depends. If you are next to the marauders, and going after the marines, then obv moving instead of attack moving is a good idea.
But if you have an optimal placement next to the marines, blow up the marines. If your opponent is microing, you run the risk of him target firing your other units, ignoring the baneling, thus making them useless.
Other stuff can happen. stim and run away with half the army, saving it because your banelings are slower, and only moving, not exploding.
If you got the shot, take the shot. If you dont, then move instead of attack moving.
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On May 10 2010 04:14 BetaWeak wrote:
Chiss, very good thoughts. I play a lot of bling so I found this thread incredibly interesting and useful.
A couple things:
-As a few other people, notably Generico, have said, you're right about the blings being great damage tanks; however, if you have an opportunity for a kill shot, like if you've been moving alongside the rines for a while and you've actually got your blings interspersed through them, and the other guy is still manually targeting your other units (which only makes sense, cause if he kills the blings he's toast), then you're better off a-moving the blings (and obviously not manually detonating because, as you said, this is usually wasteful) instead of just letting him continue to snipe your army.
Indeed, there are situations when Attack Move would be advantageous, such as when they focus fire on your other units, and ignore the Banelings. However, in this situation, i prefer to pull my army back, just leaving their Marines surrounded by Banelings. If they STILL don't shoot them, then I will Attack Move.
On May 10 2010 04:14 BetaWeak wrote:
-Question: The first thing I thought of when I started reading your first post was blast radius. If you've got blings running alongside rines, they might not be close enough to do significant damage when they die--am I right?
I'm not saying to run your whole Baneling Ball parallel beside the Marines. You should be trying to become 'a part' of the MMM ball. So your Banelings will be shoulder to shoulder, left, right, up, down.
On May 10 2010 05:16 Yizuo wrote:Thanks for the info . While we're at it, what do you think about banelings vs toss?
Great Question.
I am not a big advocate against Banelings vs Protoss. Banelings are almost as wasteful against Zealots as they are Marauders. However, it can make the difference and i have found them useful against heavy Zealot builds. Quite simply though, Roaches are much better against Zealots, and only cost 25 minerals more than a Baneling.
On May 10 2010 04:26 Floophead_III wrote:
No, banelings actually are overpowered vs bio terran. There is no amount of micro you can do. Marauders, which are the supposed counter to banelings, don't even work. If you go pure marauder I can go pure baneling and still come out in good shape. Speedlings/mutas can clean up what banelings don't kill.
This isn't something that's open for discussion, it's a fact. I've played so much TvZ trying to make bio work vs banelings and you can't. Your best bet is to get thor/bio and hope to god z is stupid enough to:
a) suicide his mutas into your thors
b) suicide his banelings into your thors
c) not get infestors
Granted the infestor nerf makes early thor/bio pushes a lot stronger but I still think mass baneling/speedling should do fine because as long as most of the bio is gone thors become worthless vs lings. Once it reaches midgame infestors are out and it's gg.
I wasn't going to reply to this, as i didn't really feel it was that related.
However, yes, Banelings are a counter to MMM. You cannot expect to win with MMM against an equal valued Baneling army with Ling/Muta backup.
Though, Terran have a number of Mech builds, Hellion/Thor/Tanks, which absolutely squash any use for a Baneling. The Hellions also allow early harass which can deny expansions and are great if they try to Baneling Bust.
I genuinely think we are going to see a shift in TvZ towards Mech, all the time.
On May 10 2010 05:35 aliciakeys wrote:
so do you press m then left click or right click them?
They do exactly the same thing. I right click, as you'll need to be clicking quite a lot, rapidly, in order to get them to get a nice surround on the Marines.
On May 10 2010 07:46 Piousflea wrote:
I still disagree with the "use banelings to tank" strategy.
Two banelings (60 HP) detonating in the middle of a marine cluster can easily kill 10 marines.
If you delay the detonation by 0.86 seconds, that gives all 10 marines a chance to fire 1 additional shot (60 damage). If the delay is more than 0.86 seconds, you're taking MORE damage by "allowing banelings to tank" than by allowing them to detonate immediately.
The main reason to use move instead of attack-move is when the opponent has microed his Marauders in front of his Marines. In this case, attack-move will cause your banelings to detonate harmlessly on marauders. However, this rationale has absolutely nothing to do with absorbing 30 damage per Baneling by "letting them tank".
Ah, yes, but i strongly disagree.
You see. That extra 0.86 seconds is the Marines shooting the Banelings. They are going to die anyway, so the LONGER they get shot at, the better. Because that is 0.86 seconds the rest of your army is attacking while your opponent shoots things that are going to die anyway. Realise, that's also another 0.86 seconds to get the Banelings into a better position to Detonate on.
As i said though, if they are focus firing your Mutalisks/Lings, then you should certainly Attack Move once youre in good proximity of the Marines. Alternatively, pull your Mutalisks/Lings away and the Marines will shoot the Banelings to their demise.
You also made the assumption that 'two Banelings in the middle of a cluster of 10 Marines could kill them all instantly'. Yeah, sure, but you will likely never be in the middle of a Marine cluster. And even if you are, those Banelings are the 'closest' and will be attacked first as a result.
If you need further clarification, ask.
On May 10 2010 08:14 kxr1der wrote:
there is a video of day9 playing against tasteless?
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6708513
Game 1 is where i disagree with his use of Banelings.
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Truly this thread will help me separate good baneling micro from bad baneling micro. Great post!
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Truly this thread will help me separate good baneling micro from bad baneling micro. Great post!
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I honestly think the fact that when you focus fire a baneling and it dies it still kill ur units it broken... 
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IMO It's completely BS that banelings still do damage when you target fire them and they die...
Not doing friendly fire damage unlike spider mines I can at least understand from a balance perspective, but having this magical unit that still has an identical huge explosion regardless of whether it dies or attacks is just plain silly.
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On May 10 2010 07:50 codewarrior wrote:
Burrowed banelings can have "unburrow" on autocast, turning them into Spider Mines.
I just checked this out again. All zerg ground units can have "unburrow" on autocast (with the exception of Drones and Infestors). They will automatically unburrow when an enemy unit or building comes into attack range. Each unit remembers its "auto-unburrow" setting for its entire lifetime. Setting your Roaches to auto-unburrow interferes a tiny bit with burrowed movement: when you stop giving them movement commands while burrowed, they'll pop out if anything hostile is nearby.
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As a terran I must say I do not approve of this thread...
it makes my life harder.
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On May 10 2010 12:23 -orb- wrote:
IMO It's completely BS that banelings still do damage when you target fire them and they die...
Not doing friendly fire damage unlike spider mines I can at least understand from a balance perspective, but having this magical unit that still has an identical huge explosion regardless of whether it dies or attacks is just plain silly.
You've got to remember that Banelings cost 50/25 and suicide. This is a LOT of money for something that can attack once. Spider mines were technically 25/0 and thats ignoring the amazing harass unit that came with it, I'd take that over Banelings any day.
Also remember, Banelings are only good against a very select few units, and are useless (lose more money than you do damage) against virtually everything else. Workers/Zerglings/Marines/Hydras are the only good use for them. Okay against Zealots, Hellions and Sentries too, though, theyre generally awful against Protoss.
Finally, you are still very capable of kiting them with ranged units without being hit by the detonation, the splash is pretty small. This is especially the case pre-speed upgrade.
If they didn't explode on death, they'd be gutter trash.
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On May 10 2010 12:43 chiss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 12:23 -orb- wrote:
IMO It's completely BS that banelings still do damage when you target fire them and they die...
Not doing friendly fire damage unlike spider mines I can at least understand from a balance perspective, but having this magical unit that still has an identical huge explosion regardless of whether it dies or attacks is just plain silly. You've got to remember that Banelings cost 50/25 and suicide. This is a LOT of money for something that can attack once. Spider mines were technically 25/0 and thats ignoring the amazing harass unit that came with it, I'd take that over Banelings any day. Also remember, Banelings are only good against a very select few units, and are useless (lose more money than you do damage) against virtually everything else. Workers/Zerglings/Marines/Hydras are the only good use for them. Okay against Zealots, Hellions and Sentries too, though, theyre generally awful against Protoss. Finally, you are still very capable of kiting them with ranged units without being hit by the detonation, the splash is pretty small. This is especially the case pre-speed upgrade. If they didn't explode on death, they'd be gutter trash.
scourge?
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I almost always get banelings vs. P and T because of the harass I can do to workers in the mid game. If I dont have the extra gas, which is rarely the case due to my bad macro, I won't get them. However, coupled with an effective push on a 3rd expansion, sending banelings to a natural or main to either kill workers or blow up supply buildings can be extremely effective.
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On May 09 2010 22:29 mrlie3 wrote:
Once Banelings get speed upgrade, all of these logics are negligible. =) Man aren't they fast!
I want to see more Zerg to play burrowed Banelings btw. Stop Lurkers did terrible, terrible damage to SC1 Terran, why not here?
I use banelings in almost every game I play
OT : Very nice write up Ty!
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Just plant 6 Banelings clumped in groups of 2 in such a way that the splash will kill all workers when you burrow them in the mineral line.
Or spend all of your early-game resources teching to Banelings + Burrow, burrow them all at the opponent's choke, and then they'll realize what you've actually been doing.
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Very useful thread. Everyone read.
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On May 10 2010 12:48 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 12:43 chiss wrote:On May 10 2010 12:23 -orb- wrote:
IMO It's completely BS that banelings still do damage when you target fire them and they die...
Not doing friendly fire damage unlike spider mines I can at least understand from a balance perspective, but having this magical unit that still has an identical huge explosion regardless of whether it dies or attacks is just plain silly. You've got to remember that Banelings cost 50/25 and suicide. This is a LOT of money for something that can attack once. Spider mines were technically 25/0 and thats ignoring the amazing harass unit that came with it, I'd take that over Banelings any day. Also remember, Banelings are only good against a very select few units, and are useless (lose more money than you do damage) against virtually everything else. Workers/Zerglings/Marines/Hydras are the only good use for them. Okay against Zealots, Hellions and Sentries too, though, theyre generally awful against Protoss. Finally, you are still very capable of kiting them with ranged units without being hit by the detonation, the splash is pretty small. This is especially the case pre-speed upgrade. If they didn't explode on death, they'd be gutter trash. scourge?
I can haz?
Seriously, I miss those little suckers. It'd make killing colossi/phoenix/mutas viable with spire tech.
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On May 09 2010 22:22 chiss wrote:
#1 - Banelings detonate on death
Getting them to 0/30hp simply forces them to detonate. It seems a lot of people do not know this, assuming that killing them means they wont explode. (Day[9] showed this by the fact he saw Nick focus fire his Baneling and was confused when Nicks Marines still died)
And this is honestly what I believe is the biggest flaw of Banelings. They're fire and forget, and they reward you for simply just telling them to run next to units instead of microing them properly. Banelings should not explode upon death, imo
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Thanks for opening my eyes!
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How do you kill roaches with mech terran? Siege tanks are surprisingly not that great against them, since the rate of fire is slow, and they take 3 hits to kill.
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On May 10 2010 18:05 roam wrote:
How do you kill roaches with mech terran? Siege tanks are surprisingly not that great against them, since the rate of fire is slow, and they take 3 hits to kill.
I don't agree with that, you forget that siege tanks have splash damage, so one siege tank is effectively doing damage to a whole bunch of roaches with one attack. If you got about 6 tanks in siege mode they will rape roaches with their 60 splash dmg. the rate of fire for siege tanks in attack mode is 3 sec between each shot, also the 13 range for siege tanks in siege mode far surpasses the 3 range for roaches.
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See, I was always confused with the baneling mechanics and like all the little technical stuff that I avoided using them. Now I'm definetely going to incorperate them into my play more.
Thank you, sir.
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On May 10 2010 00:10 chiss wrote:
Manually detonating each one as it gets into range seems a bit micro intensive, and you might accidentally blow up out of range. Again, I'd just pull the Zerglings back.
I haven't tried this yet, but you can probably do a Shift Move+Detonate, and they will only detonate when they reach that position. This works for Stalkers if you want them to blink across a gap a few at a time rather than all at once. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=117638
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United States47024 Posts
On May 10 2010 18:05 roam wrote:
How do you kill roaches with mech terran? Siege tanks are surprisingly not that great against them, since the rate of fire is slow, and they take 3 hits to kill.
Something worth noting: disregarding splash damage, Siege Tanks do more damage to armored targets in Tank Mode than they do in Siege Mode in SC2. Because of this, in small numbers, Tank Mode is arguably preferable to Siege Mode when fighting Roaches, since it takes 6 Tank Mode shots (~the same time as 2 Siege Mode shots) to kill a roach, and you can move.
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Moving instead of attack moving resolves most of my problems. Thanks for the informative post! Maybe I won't see banelings as an all-in anymore.
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Very informative, this is the kind of simple knowledge that will greatly improve one's play. Much thanks for sharing!
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I don't see how this isn't obvious, but reading people's post shows me it isn't, so I guess thanks for sharing.
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Imo banelings detonating on death is a huge flaw. It's way too easy and rewarding for a zerg player to tear bio apart with them and microing with marines against them is pretty much impossible. You can just stand and attack and pray to god the blings don't reach you. I guess there was a reason spider mines/inf. kerrigan/scourges didn't do any damage when they died in bw.
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No, banelings would be fucking useless if they didn't detonate on death.
Anyway, I've used this and it has helped, but the best way to counter it seems to be stimpaks. This makes all of the units run like hell (even quicker or just as quick as upgraded banelings) and thus kite them, especially with marauders slowing. It's not perfect, but it's absolutely doable. My banelings were even on creep but couldn't do much about it- and my hydras, even on creep, couldn't catch up quick enough to make the moust of the "free hits". Perhaps if I had used them to flank it would've worked better, but it's tough to hide so many banelings!
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On May 10 2010 12:31 codewarrior wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 07:50 codewarrior wrote:
Burrowed banelings can have "unburrow" on autocast, turning them into Spider Mines. I just checked this out again. All zerg ground units can have "unburrow" on autocast (with the exception of Drones and Infestors). They will automatically unburrow when an enemy unit or building comes into attack range. Each unit remembers its "auto-unburrow" setting for its entire lifetime. Setting your Roaches to auto-unburrow interferes a tiny bit with burrowed movement: when you stop giving them movement commands while burrowed, they'll pop out if anything hostile is nearby.
Whoa, I'm so glad I checked this thread again! Thanks man! I'm definitely going to play around with burrowing a lot more!
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On May 09 2010 22:42 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Yep just tested, banelings who are told to move will explode on death doing the same damage they would normally do. Definitely changing the way im handling banelings. Awesome thread!
great OP.. and to the guy i quoted are you a reference to the Tairy Greene Machine? If so I applaud.
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Interesting post. As a terran player I've already been using marauders to shield my marines, but I wasn't aware that a single marauder could eat up seven banelings.
Banelings certainly make bio ball a hard unit comp to play, but I wouldn't call them overpowered yet. Terran just has to be really good at conrolling his army and being absolutely certain that his marines are shielded by his marauders (using natural walls from terrain or structures helps a lot with this too). If you can at least take out the banelings, your marines can generally clean up whatever zerg has left.
I also find that tanks are very useful in the midgame against banelings, because you can detonate them long before they reach your army.
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Good post. I actually sent in a bug report on day 2 of the beta (for me) complaining that the death animation and explosion animation was way too similar for Banelings. Immediately after the post I played another game with banelings and later watched in slow motion... then all became clear.
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Every zerg today has tried to baneling bust me, and has atleast made me stay on one base longer than id like while he safely expands. Im 1-4 so far against it today with my only win being the one where I was able to get 2 siege tanks out to protect my ramp, they blew up the incoming banelings, as i snuck a few banshees into there mineral line. What other strats can terran use when they see the dreaded banelings? There pretty much ruining my fun with the game so far, there has to be more ways to make sure my precious army or buildings dont go boom.
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Hi all, thanks for the kind words!
Just to add a little bit. Many Terrans say this is 'overpowered'. No, this is not overpowered, this is just strong against Bio. No one is forcing you to build MMM.
The biggest reason this is so powerful is because SC2 promotes being lazy with control groups, and virtually every Terran puts everything into one control group. If you were to split your armies into 2 smaller groups of Marauders and 3 smaller groups of Marines. You would be able to counter Banelings FAR more effectively. It turns into the 2 Marines, 1 Zealot kiting game.
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banelings my fav unit and the reason i want to switch to zerg but i suck at defending my FE and hate playing off 1 base as zerg it feels so slow
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This actually makes me reconsider the unit.. I've had great luck without them and have always hated how they function under attack move. Awesome pointer.
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Yeah I'm fairly certain banelings can manually detonate while burrowed doing 100% damage. It's sad I haven't seen enough of this, because it's not much more intensive than spider mines. Apm in sc2 is lower as well so thats another reason this could be viable.
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Now, I'm not saying Burrow is useless, because it's certainly not. However, I am suggesting that you NEVER Detonate while Burrowed.
I dont have access to the beta myself, but it seems that you are missing a key point here. If you unburrow something like 4 or 5 banelings in the middle of a MM cluster, the banelings will push the MM's away to make room for themselves (like forcefields do). So now splash will hit fewer units because the units are only surrounding the banelings instead of also being on top of them.
An ugly attempt at an illustration
X = Baneling
O = MM
Burrowed
OOO
OOO
OOO
Unburrowd
OOO
OXOO
OOO
When the baneling is burrowed it will hit all 9 MMs, but when it is unburrowed, one of the MM is pushed to the side, and therefor wont get hit by the splash.
So detonating banelings while burrowed CAN THEORETICALLY be more cost effective, if you are can figure out how many it takes to kill the target and not detonate anymore than that. Of course this might not always be possible in the real world. =)
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On May 10 2010 12:36 On_Slaught wrote:
As a terran I must say I do not approve of this thread...
LOL I'm sorry for but MMM shouldn't be the magic bullet that works every time. And since when you're supposed to require no micro?
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On May 11 2010 17:57 Hasudk wrote:Show nested quote +
Now, I'm not saying Burrow is useless, because it's certainly not. However, I am suggesting that you NEVER Detonate while Burrowed.
I dont have access to the beta myself, but it seems that you are missing a key point here. If you unburrow something like 4 or 5 banelings in the middle of a MM cluster, the banelings will push the MM's away to make room for themselves (like forcefields do). So now splash will hit fewer units because the units are only surrounding the banelings instead of also being on top of them. An ugly attempt at an illustration X = Baneling O = MM Burrowed OOO OOO OOO Unburrowd OOO OXOO OOO When the baneling is burrowed it will hit all 9 MMs, but when it is unburrowed, one of the MM is pushed to the side, and therefor wont get hit by the splash. So detonating banelings while burrowed CAN THEORETICALLY be more cost effective, if you are can figure out how many it takes to kill the target and not detonate anymore than that. Of course this might not always be possible in the real world. =)
You bring a good point, but infact this is not the case.
I will talk about the Motherships Temporal Rift or whatever its called, to explain why.
Imagine my opponent is Protoss and creates a Black Holey Rift thing with his Mothership, but for some reason accidently places it on his group of 10 Zealots. And then accidently runs another 50 Zealot into it.
If i move FIVE Banelings into the Rift, as soon as the Rift is over, EVERY SINGLE ZEALOT WILL DIE.
Why? Because units 'unstacking' is not instant, and for a split second, all 60 Zealots and 5 Banelings are EXACTLY ontop of each other, and in this moment, Banelings will all Detonate automatically.
The same thing happens when unburrowing.
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Banelings are freaking nuts. If zerg players ever macro well enough to keep 20 banelings in their armies at all times Terran is done. The 10 larvae cost is almost greater than the resource cost (1000/500). It's not as if hydra/roach/infestors aren't enough to deal with. Something needs to be done imo, sooner or later ZvT will get heavily in favor or Zerg.
Any move u make to draw baneling fire is so obvious the zerg will move past it. It really doesn't matter how many groups u separate your army into. If the banelings explode next to a control group of infantry units they've done their job. Try stimming and kiting against fungal growth and creep speed.
Best bet is probably to position siege units well to snipe banelings, but If they're too close to your units you eat the damage anyway.
Edit: What are the alternatives to bio? Banshee/raven? Thor/hellion? Hellion are light too, so if 3 banelings manage to get in you lose a clump of hellions.
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I was in full QQ mode about this yesterday and my buddy said shut up and look at this replay. It was him trying to baneling and getting pwned by hellion micro. Guess Im going to drop my factory on a reactor today and see if i have success. Banelings still feel paramount to two men about to duke it out and one starts with throwing dirt in the other guys eyes before he punches him in the face.
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You bring a good point, but infact this is not the case. I will talk about the Motherships Temporal Rift or whatever its called, to explain why. Imagine my opponent is Protoss and creates a Black Holey Rift thing with his Mothership, but for some reason accidently places it on his group of 10 Zealots. And then accidently runs another 50 Zealot into it. If i move FIVE Banelings into the Rift, as soon as the Rift is over, EVERY SINGLE ZEALOT WILL DIE. Why? Because units 'unstacking' is not instant, and for a split second, all 60 Zealots and 5 Banelings are EXACTLY ontop of each other, and in this moment, Banelings will all Detonate automatically. The same thing happens when unburrowing.
=)
I see. I stand corrected then. Guess that's what happens when you can't actually test your theories. /gief beta or release. =)
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a replay would be great to see this in action :O
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On May 09 2010 22:30 kerpal wrote:
i heard somewhere that banelings only detonate on death if they're attacking at the time, does anyone know if that's true?
They detonate on death. period.
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Also I think one of the main uses of the manual detonation is for when they're burrowed (which, I think still works?)
I'm not a fan of manually detonating a burrowed bane, as unborrow will tank a few shots and explode as well.. and if they are only a few units/worker then a-move usually gets them into better position.
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EPT
