EPTTL Mafia XX
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Zona
40426 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
If BM is mafia - keeping him alive will probably hurt the mafia a lot in the long run, so there's the benefit there. If BM is town - it's a waste of a lynch to get rid of him, as otherwise we could have gained more information somewhere else. The day 1 lynch needs to be a natural vote, not based on factors external to this particular game, so that these votes later can be scrutinized for possible mafia activity. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
I skipped over that part - this is pretty major change. It's a huge disincentive for mafia to run for the role...unless there are no detectives at all in this game and the whole detective thing is just a red herring. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 11 2010 12:26 citi.zen wrote: Might as well roleclaim at this point so we can confirm you one way or another. Or not. You've said too much already and are a mafia target anyway. If you are DT I do not want you dead. Considering his sentence includes "the other DT"...it seems like he's claiming DT. The thing is - we probably only have one DT. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
I do agree that a green mayor is a lot less powerful than a blue one - but it's still better than a red. But it's easier to catch a fake-blue mayor in a lie than a fake-green one, so I'd actually be more wary of a green mayor than a blue one if we ever find out the DT results on a check on them. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 11 2010 11:42 Incognito wrote: Wait a second...we can't do the medics protecting bodyguards scenario. If a mafia-aligned bus driver gets in contact with the mafia, they just switch the bodyguard with a random player and hit random player. The BG dies. *Back to the drawing board. On this note, if the bus driver does manage to cooperate with the mafia, they gain 2 unblockable kills, in essence. So the town shouldn't rely on medics as much as a usual game. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
This vivi57 DT claim on Bloodycobbler's behalf is also unsettling - what does bloodycobbler have to say about this? Maybe if the claim was by PM he wanted to gain supporters without going totally public with his claim? perhaps he want his claim to come under public scrutiny? why would you, vivi57, share this tidbit when bloodycobbler clearly wasn't going public on his own with his claim? also - did his PM with his claim come before or after L heavily implied he himself was a DT? still, these are good developments. we've got people making statements that can eventually be checked to see who's lying. especially statements involving 2 people who will likely be pretty active players. nemY - you can't abstain in this game. so no fence sitting for you - make a real vote so that your actions can be examined later on. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 11 2010 20:41 Zona wrote: Okay - is L backpedaling from his super heavy hinting that he's the DT? I don't like this. If you get elected and say "surprise, I'm not the DT" - I'll push for your lynch day 2. This vivi57 DT claim on Bloodycobbler's behalf is also unsettling - what does bloodycobbler have to say about this? Maybe if the claim was by PM he wanted to gain supporters without going totally public with his claim? perhaps he didn't want his claim to come under public scrutiny? why would you, vivi57, share this tidbit when bloodycobbler clearly wasn't going public on his own with his claim? also - did his PM with his claim come before or after L heavily implied he himself was a DT? still, these are good developments. we've got people making statements that can eventually be checked to see who's lying. especially statements involving 2 people who will likely be pretty active players. nemY - you can't abstain in this game. so no fence sitting for you - make a real vote so that your actions can be examined later on. fixed a missing word that totally changed the meaning of that sentence | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 12 2010 03:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The original reason for me claiming to three people was to garner votes for my campaign. Basically after elections if I didn't get in, and say 1 of those three refused to vote for me, chances are I would find a tell in their posts leading to one dead mafia anyway. I person not voting for you after your claim of DT doesn't necessarily mean they're mafia. Maybe they don't just trust you. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 12 2010 03:59 Zona wrote: I person not voting for you after your claim of DT doesn't necessarily mean they're mafia. Maybe they don't just trust you. Ugh. Read that as: Maybe they just don't trust you. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On the other hand, no matter how strange the beginning to Bloodycobbler's claim was, he is now being entirely clear on his claim on being the DT, not leading us around in circles like you are doing. Of course stating clearly that one is the DT doesn't mean that the likelihood of him being the DT is higher, but we can measure his claim against his behavior in the future and rein him in if we figure out that he's not the DT. You, on the other hand, look like you want to get elected on your hint of being the DT which you seem to be preparing to retract, and if you are eventually elected and then claim to not be the DT, the rest of us have a lot less to work with to hold you to account. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
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Zona
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Well to make this post useful: Since there's only 3 people running serious campaigns, and the mafia is likely to have organized a campaign for one of their own - which one (or more) of the current candidates does everyone think is a bit fishy? | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:09 Incognito wrote: Why are you dictating a list for the DT's and Medics? Do you have any reasons for the people you've chosen?DT Check List: CynanMachae ~OpZ~ Sidesprang Medic Prot List: Incognito Bodyguard A Bodyguard B Let the DTs and medics choose for themselves. If you post a public list, and the DTs and medics actually follow it, the mafia bus driver can effectively screw with the town without even needing to find his/her fellow mafia members in order to coordinate. I think these lists are not a helpful idea for the town. It also irks me that you've declared your idea to be final without thinking through the differences in the mechanics in this game. Or perhaps you have, but decided to hold such things back and post the flawed argument nonetheless. On March 13 2010 09:11 Incognito wrote: Yuck.2. Please refrain from deviating from this list unless you have VERY good reasons. Also, what the heck is this: On March 13 2010 03:53 Incognito wrote: Why are you simply naming the other reputable players in the game? "Good enough to be mafia"? How does being "good" have any relation to their chance of being mafia in a game with randomly distributed roles? And being quiet isn't automatically a mafia tell. Maybe they just want to try a different style this game.Day 1 lynch targets. Looks like the race is between BC and L. Who are you guys going to lynch? I have a feeling Malongo/Foolishness/Versatile are good targets. All been quiet, all good enough to be mafia since I think the three candidates are town. They just haven't done enough for me to see them as town-sided. What does everyone else think? Finally, did you put a serious effort into your election campaign beyond the initial posts? On March 13 2010 10:18 nemY wrote: nemY is absolutely right in this case. First of all the GF role only has a purpose if the DT is still around, so if you lose the DT, the GF is just another mafia member. Secondly, and I'm probably reiterating things that everyone knows, the power of the DT is not only to identify mafia but to privately or publicly confirm town members for various uses. (Private trust-worthy discussions, for example.) And so trading the DT for a single mafia member is not ideal.Absolutely not. DT for GF is not a good trade. With no clue analysis, unlimited role checks and only behavior analysis, DT is the most powerful role in the game. I'm surprised that this early in the game I'm making a post of this size focused on just one of our players, but those three statements are truly bad ideas that do not help the town. Whether they were things you truly overlooked while formulating your ideas or are intentional actions, the town will have to examine what plans you propose very carefully. P.S. Everyone who's using red and blue and whatever colors to strengthen your posts - please don't. The colors themselves do not contribute anything whatsoever to your reasoning, and instead (at least to me) shows that you don't have enough confidence in your arguments alone and have to rely on gimmicks to reinforce them. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On March 13 2010 11:05 Foolishness wrote: Have you thought through the implications of the mafia bus driver role? This is no ordinary mafia game where a public DT/medic list *might* be beneficial. Alone, and without public DT/medic lists, the mafia bus driver (who does not begin knowing his/her mafia teammates) cannot really use the power effectively. The power cannot be used to protect the mafia or whitewash for them, since the bus drvier doesn't know who they are. And if the bus driver has no idea who the DTs will check, doing a random switch has a very low chance of producing useful results for the mafia.It's called creating order for the town, and establishing some sort of plan. Bodyguards are going to be made public, and there's a good chance they're going to be under fire at some point this game. I'll give you that maybe his DT check list is opinionated, but honestly who else are you going to protect? Look at this way, now, maybe I'm biased from lack of experience but guess what? MEDICS SUCK BALLS! Have you ever seen a medic perform outstandingly during a game? I sure have never seen a medic block more than one hit during a game, and usually those hits are very obvious (like Scamp protecting jspazz in the other game). Letting the DT's and medics roam free is certainly not beneficial to the town. Why do you want the medic/DT's acting on their own accord? Problem with forming some sort of town circle eh? Don't like the town being organized? Oh! Perhaps you've adopted the Chezinu style of play where you just try to cause some chaos for shits and giggles. With a public DT list, however, the bus driver could elect to switch someone in that DT list with anyone else. Remember the bus driver doesn't even need for this 'someone else' to be mafia for this to be effective - even if a blue is switched with a green, or a green with a blue, then the DT can be discredited. Or, if people are considering the chance that the DT's check was bus driven, then doubt is thrown on the result of the check, making it a lot less useful. A DT choosing his or her own check instead can hopefully find a fellow town member, and then can form a private, trusted discussion group where all participants know that every idea is free from mafia interference, even if they aren't necessarily correct at first. I do agree that on the whole, the medic power isn't that effective. But once again, having a public medic list that the medics actually follow just allow the mafia to avoid wasting their hits and slowing down their killing of the town, when wasted hits give the town more days, more time to figure out who the mafia are. The medic becomes a ton more powerful if he/she survives to late game because there are a lot fewer people for the mafia and medic to choose from, and thus the chances of their choices coinciding are a lot higher. Addendum: + Show Spoiler + I can see how a DT list and medic list can be useful for a certain style of play, in which the town rallies around a FEW vocal, strong, central players, who are entirely confirmed by the DT and then subsequently protected by medics so that they can be the town leaders, recipients and proclaimers of DT checks, and the like, but the bus driver weakens this considerably. First, public DT-confirmation is a lot more shakey because of the bus driver. And like I mentioned in my main post, publicly declaring a DT check list is just inviting the bus driver to switch and muddle things up. Also, the style of play which involves a few central, strong, DT-confirmed + medic-protected individuals leading the town is not the only road to success. Town members forming private discussion groups with people they trust, as well as posting their thoughts in public can root out mafia and win that way, and this style is far less vulnerable to mafia manipulation, as there aren't just a few individuals who are dominating the town's decisions. The town's power is in its mass, why not play in a style that emphasizes that? In any case, the bus driver makes the other route far less attractive. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
First, if the DT can get access to a protected mouthpiece to the town (by becoming a protected elected official, or perhaps somehow confirming that a certain elected official is town and proving him/herself to that elected official and then communicating through them), then it's smooth sailing. The DT uses his or her rolechecks to find mafia, then proclaims the finds to the town through the mouthpiece, allowing the town to lynch them. The DT's power contributes a ton to the town's success. However, if the DT cannot secure such a mouthpiece, it's better early on to find fellow town members, not mafia. If the DT finds a mafia member early in the game in this kind of situation, it often won't be easy to convince the rest of the town to lynch the target without revealing themselves. And revealing leaves the DT a prime target to be nightkilled: if a game is reasonably balanced, the mafia will be able to kill the revealed DT. However, if the DT finds fellow town members, they can form a private, trusted discussion circle which can become even more useful once the DT starts hunting mafia. Then the circle can work together to lynch the mafia - both in votes and in public arguments, rather than the DT working alone trying to convince the town. If a DT chooses who to check privately, the chances of his or her results being inaccurate are low. The godfather chance is low, and the bus driver chance is low, since the bus driver has no information. If the targets that the DT checks are public however, it's so much easier for the bus driver to make a difference. So yes, if the DT cannot get elected, I'm advocating that the DT chooses who the check on his or her own (and check for potential TOWN members, not mafia, at least in the early game). As the godfather can be chosen AFTER the election in this game, the mafia actually as a great chance of faking a 'town' DT result on an elected official so the 'confirm a protect mouthpiece' avenue is also not ideal. On March 13 2010 11:05 Foolishness wrote:Letting the DT's and medics roam free is certainly not beneficial to the town. You are using very skewed language here, rather than reasoning.Why do you want the medic/DT's acting on their own accord? Problem with forming some sort of town circle eh? Don't like the town being organized? Oh! Perhaps you've adopted the Chezinu style of play where you just try to cause some chaos for shits and giggles. "Letting the DT's and medics roam free" - as if they were wild animals or something? "Why do you want the medic/DT's acting on their own accord?" - as if town members thinking on their own is a bad thing? "Chezinu style of play where you just try to cause some chaos for shits and giggles." - this is a thoroughly unfair comparison. I am arguing against someone's plan and have laid out my reasons on why their proposals were flawed. I don't see how it's even remotely comparable to some other player's history of "cause some chaos for shits and giggles." | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
However I will still respond to portions of your post, because I rather dislike some parts of it. On March 13 2010 12:04 Foolishness wrote: Being "organized" can mean so many different things. The way you choose to define "organized" (publicized lists of people to use blue powers on) is not the only way for the town to work together, and in any case, "organization" in itself is not necessarily beneficial unless it helps the town's goals, which are to find scum, and keep town members alive. I have laid out in a recent post a specific "plan of action" for DTs which I think is reasonable, which does not involve public DT lists. I have also provided the specific steps in how the plan can possibly proceed, while your argument against it was to vaguely refer to one previous game as an isolated example where something vaguely similar to what I'm proposing did not work out and emphasize "organized" as some sort of mantra, as if it in itself would lead to success.The point of the matter is that it's better to have the blue roles organized and under some general plan of action, and not letting them "choose for themselves" as you said. On March 13 2010 12:04 Foolishness wrote: Even though the fears of DT checks being muddled are no longer relevant, I take issue with your point of view here - the point of view in which you find one in three inaccuracy in a DT check acceptable. I already have a better check than that - I can tell you with 80% accuracy who else is a town member. Just pick any player randomly. I want to point out here that being satisfied with a one in three chance of your DT check being wrong is setting incredibly low standards for what the DT power could do. I hesitate to move forward with this argument, but here it is: only mafia would be happy if the DT check was wrong 1 in 3 of the time.If the bus driver chooses to mess it up, they can only mess up ONE of the 3 people. Still a good chance DT's check is going to go through. In any case, this will be my last post on this matter so you can have the last word if you wish, unless you really make some truly outrageous statements. I don't feel that drawing out this discussion any further benefits the town. Too much focus on any one issue or just a few people induces tunnel vision and could lead the town to lose sight of the wider picture, such as the other mafia members out there. We should move on to different issues instead of further dragging this along. P.S. Every town member who isn't posting: post your thoughts, one way or another. The rest of the town has no way to evaluate you and eliminate you as a mafia suspect unless you contribute something, since there are no clues! Even if you aren't really sure of something, at least take a stand one way or another so that later on we can try to judge your actions to see if you were cooperating with mafia (you weren't, of course) and to see if you had inside information the mafia had (but you don't, of course). | ||
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