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This post is not about balance or about the hard counter nature of SC2 (which I am not sure I like at all), but about the units of Zerg.
To sum up the Zerg of SC2: They removed two of the most interesting units of the Zerg, Lurker and Scourge (which had a distinct feel and that was very unique to Zerg), and added the anonymous Roach, which is like a Hydra without air attack, and the Baneling. They cut the wings of the Queen and made her useful. They kept the Mutalisk, and changed the name and looks of the Devourer, that still however can evolve into the Guardian-like Brood Lord. They kept the Ultralisk, but renamed the Defiler to Infestor and downgraded its abilities.
For every change Blizzard did to the SC2 Zerg compared to the SC1 Zerg, the only one I find interesting was to cut the wings of the Scourge into Baneling.
I do think that SC2 needs new units and abilities, but compared to the SC2 Protoss which is very interesting, the SC2 Zerg units feels like an alpha build of SC1 (with flashy graphics indeed). The new unit composition of Zerg does not enhance the uniqueness of Zerg, rather diminishing it.
The SC2 Protoss however, while keeping most of the interesting units from SC1, added a lot of new interesting ones: the Collossi, the Immortal and the Stalker (instead of the Dragoon), the Mothership, the Sentry, the Void Ray, Warp Prism and added a lot of interesting fresh features to these units.
Also, certain parts of the Terran is IMHO rather bland ATM compared to the colorful SC1 "tripple entente" of the M&M+Firebat. SC2 Terran feels like you have 4 sizes of Marine, first the standard Marine, then the bigger Marauder, FlyingMarine Reaper and finally the MegaMarine Thor. However though, not as "uninteresting" as the current build of Zerg.
To sum it up: Protoss got a very interesting overhaul with a great mix of new and old units and abilities, but I do not feel Zerg got the same quality treatment from Blizzard. Sure, I can just play Protoss and care little about Zerg but in the long run I guess it will be rather boring only playing lots of PvP matches.
One ingredient why SC1 is such a great game is that every race was so geniously well crafted; and I wish Blizzard would treat the Zerg as they did treat the new Protoss. SC2 is not SC1, so new and fresh units is a must, aslong as they are interesting and provide uniqueness to each race. Removing the Lurker and adding the anon. Roach just because Blizzard feel they need to alter the unit composition of Zerg is not the right way to go.
What do you think of SC2 style Zerg?
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I actually really like how zerg play right now. You need a good mix of units to be effective in battles.
The new queen is great! And her role actually fits her name. She stays in the nest, lays eggs, spreads creep, watches over all the cute little larva, etc.
Banelings are hilarious, and feel downright OP when playing as terran.
Sure the infestor needs some buffing, and the only time I ever use a corrupter is against a terran player who uses planetary fortresses, but it's still early. They'll get fixed.
Right now I find that you need such a good mix of units to really be effective. Roaches up front taking damage, as they are great tanks. Hydras right behind them doing crazy damage, banelings asploding all over the place, (though you really need to micro these guys or they will all blow themselves up on like one non-light unit), and zerglings surrounding and trapping and generally dying horribly.
Lotsa fun!
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Zerg isn't disappointing when + Show Spoiler +Kaaz just pawned WhiteRa in a ZvP.
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Melbourne5338 Posts
I think the Queen makes SC2 Zerg have a great zerg feel.
The Queen abilities really bring out the swarm. With a lot more larvae and the ability to creep all over the map.
Burrow move is also a very cute thing and very fun to play with.
Nydus Worms are also very zerg in their feel to me, infesting the landscape and allowing the zerg to mass everywhere.
These things make sc2 zerg feel very fast and bountiful in numbers which is what zerg should be for me.
However, recently play has been pretty bland because the zerg doesn't seem to have a flexibility in spell casters and unit variety like the other races.
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Honestly? That OP post almost makes me angry =P. You thought the scourge was one of the most interesting units in SC1? I suppose I'll leave you to that opinion.. Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target. Infinitely better and infinitely more fun to watch. Plus you can burrow them and explode them like you would a stop lurker trap if you really miss lurkers.
Changelings are a blast to watch every time. I recommend wr3k's stream, he uses them so often^^. Roaches can move while burrowed, Nydus worms are scary as hell. All in all I think sc2 zerg have really captured the feel of "overrun the guy with a swarm of units, and be sneaky and mean while doing it". They're anything but bland, you're just being one of those people who cries himself to sleep for hours when they change a tiny minute detail from sc1... well you get what I mean^^.
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people always want to have something to bitch about. Honestly didnt bother reading the OP cause I know hes just pulling bullshit out of his ass..
ROACHES.. come on man.. nothing more needs to be said.
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I think the infestor needs some work on the abilities. I don't know why consume, plague, and dark swarm were cut. You would think that Zerg's most infamous spells would survive or "mutate" into something different for sc2.
I like the idea of a fungal growth slowing units, and I liked an idea of acid spores in a previous build(?) that was mentioned on blizzcast 13 (you cast it on one unit and it spreads to the others through touch; really forces you to beware of clumping your units). Why not group the two together? A mutation of plague that slows/dmgs units, transmitted through units touching?
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On February 27 2010 00:34 Feefee wrote: Banelings are like mass scourge on the ground that do splash damage and don't all explode into the same target.
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
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zerg would be all fine and dandy for me if they manage to make the infestor useful so its not exclusively massing units.
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The only biff I have with the Zerg is their graphics. Everything would be fine if they just changed this horrible buildings and most of the attack animations to something more suitable.
Another thing would be getting rid of the Stalker and bringing the old Dragoon back (somehow, for me, Stalkers lack any "personality" while the goons were extremely characteristic and cool).
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Let the flame war begin?
Part of me wishes they stayed true to a lot of the distinctive features of zerg (defilers and lurkers where pretty much the 2 units I thought of when I heard zerg). Another part realizes I can't expect no deviation from the original starcraft.
Zerg have definately lost their feel but hey, its a new game isnt it? The question is whether or not thats a good thing.
I find the older zerg kinda cooler to be honest. Changelings are meh, and you're right in saying that roaches are your generic ground unit that has medium range kinda thing. Otherwise its hard to make any judgement right now. Has the zerg lost "overrun your opponent with mass shit" feel? Play styles arent refined so its impossible to tell. Of course you have noobs like Feefee who barely play BW and think requesting that some elements stayed true to the original means that we cry oursevles to sleep "when they change a tiny detail from sc1". Stupid right? People who don't understand BW as much seem to think that any suggestion that SC1 is superior in some way means you're a blind fanboy. Hypocrisy at its best.
On February 27 2010 00:36 Skyze wrote:
people always want to have something to bitch about. Honestly didnt bother reading the OP cause I know hes just pulling bullshit out of his ass..
ROACHES.. come on man.. nothing more needs to be said.
Then you obviously have nothing to contribute to this thread, so why bother entering? Honestly isn't shit like this bannable?
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I agree with the fact that the races feel a bit melded together in style, it's not as distinct.
I hope when strats become refined we will have more distinction between plays, right now it just seems to be mass up and attack
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OP isn't complaining about how effective/ineffective the new Zerg units are (as most of the replies seem to assume). He's complaining about how they don't feel they've changed enough from SC1 unlike Protoss units.
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i agree somewhat.
zerg seems really boring atm. be it the lack of casters (infestor is the only real one), interresting units(lurker) or mechanics(muta micro) scrapped or the lack of strats avaible.
what are the games right now? mass roaches,then mass hydras(or muts vs p),then mass ultras(broods if going for air). more focus on zerglings, some spells and unit synergy in one way or the other is much needed.
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The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Once the infestor starts seeing use (and it will due to this patch) that will help alleviate the sameness that plagues them. The queen as a caster is kind of a disappointment. Sure larvae is nice, but it has almost no offensive capabilities to speak of. I almost consider the queen a building rather than a unit. Zerg are, in my opinion, two units down from where they should be and that is what the problem is.
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On February 27 2010 00:38 Haemonculus wrote:
Haha, actually I find that banelings are more than happy to explode themselves all on the same target. It takes a bit of micro for them to be effective. Aka, in ZvZ mass fights, target them on the hydras! They do pitiful damage to roaches, but eat hydras alive.
Wow, is it really that bad? I just watched tons of vids of the likes of David Kim running baneling floods in and simply running over everything without all the banelings insta-evaporating. Maybe it just feels like banelings overkill less because units clump up so insanely well and so even if a few too many banelings die it doesn't matter? Hmm.... I really needs me a beta =(
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On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote:
The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race.
Z - 4
Zergling
Hydralisk
Mutalisk
Ultralisk
P - 6
Zealot
High Templar
Dark Templar
Carrier
Archon
Observer
T - 4
Marine
Ghost
Siege Tank
Battlecruiser
This excludes larva and worker units.
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Don't forget about the overlords, who can generate creep, which gives zerg units a bonus to movement speed. And they can morph into an overseer which can easily let you see your opponents army composition/give free scouting
And what about nydus worms? best sneak attack in the game
On February 27 2010 00:53 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 00:51 onmach wrote:
The problem is that some four units in zerg were carried over with little if any change (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra). Compared to protoss which has two? (zealot, carrier). So of course there is more interesting stuff happening in that race. Z - 4 Zergling Hydralisk Mutalisk Ultralisk P - 5 Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Carrier Archon T - 4 Marine Ghost Siege Tank Battlecruiser This excludes larva and worker units.
You forgot Observer for the protoss list
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On February 27 2010 00:47 haley wrote:
OP isn't complaining about how effective/ineffective the new Zerg units are (as most of the replies seem to assume). He's complaining about how they don't feel they've changed enough from SC1 unlike Protoss units.
Agreed, and I agree with OP. Zerg is boring. The new macro mechanics are interesting but other than that they have nothing interesting that wasn't in sc1. As for all the Roach fans--it's only one decent unit when the other races are totally unrecognizable (mostly in a good way) Whatever though. The important people are the ones posting to blizzard not us
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Ok, I guess I forgot a few units, shows that I don't play protoss. I guess I don't know what is wrong with zerg then. I know there is a problem, but I don't know what to do about it.
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EPT
