• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:24
CEST 21:24
KST 04:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru0BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack0Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation StarCraft 1 & 2 Added to Xbox Game Pass
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 41497 users

Jaedong's Bo5 Record

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 22:29:04
January 20 2010 15:52 GMT
#1
edit: To clarify, this post was not about the upcoming MSL final, let alone making a prediction. I was just curious about whether Jaedong really does play better in bo5's or whether it only seemed that way at a glance.

I often see people talk about Jaedong's Bo5 record as if it is something particularly impressive, like he steps up his game another notch when he is in a best-of-5.

People like to make storylines like that. They do it all the time; in baseball, for instance, they talk about clutch hitters. They even do it, half-jokingly, with patently ridiculous correlations like the various curses you hear about (Kim Carrier, Sports Illustrated cover, the Bambino) that last until they don't. Even the more plausible ones, though, like "clutch hitting", don't usually stand up to statistical analysis. That's why I wonder whether Jaedong's supposed prowess in best-of-5's is actually a fact.

Fact: the longer a series goes, the more likely the better player is to win it. It's easier for the worse player to get lucky once in one game than to get lucky three times in five games. Jaedong, of course, is better than nearly every other player, so we'd expect his record in best-of-5's to be better than his record in best-of-1's, for no other reason than that.

Specifically, there are 32 possible outcomes for a 5 game series between X and Y. (2^5--each of the 5 games can go one of two ways). In 16 of them, X wins. It can be 5-0 (1), 4-1 (5), or 3-2 (10). Say that X has an x chance of winning each individual game and a y (=1-x) chance of losing. The odds of his winning the series 5-0 are 1 * x^5. The odds of his winning 4-1 are 5 * x^4(y). Winning 3-2: 10 * x^3(y^2). Add these up and you have the odds of his winning the series.

Jaedong's overall winning percentage according to TLPD is 68.29%. Using that as an approximation for his chance of winning any given game he plays, and substituting that for "x" above, we would expect Jaedong to win 81.36% of his Bo5's.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Maybe the Jaedong bo5 effect is a perception created by the natural tendency for any really good player to have a better series win-percentage than individual game win-percentage.

Here's the interesting thing, though: According to Liquipedia, Jaedong's overall best-of-five record is 17-3 (85%), which is quite a bit higher than the 81.36% than his overall record would predict. Add in the fact that we would expect his individual game-winning percentage to be lower in best-of-five's since he only faces those players who have been playing well enough to make it to the end of tournaments, and his series-winning percentage starts looking even more impressive. In fact, over the course of compiling that 17-3 series record, Jaedong won 71.6% of individual games in those series (which makes the 85% series-winning record unsurprising).

In short: it doesn't seem that Jaedong plays particularly clutch in deciding games of series or anything, but it does seem that when he is in best-of-5's, his overall gameplay is kicked up a notch.

Any thoughts?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
timmeh
Profile Joined September 2009
Austria177 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 15:58:04
January 20 2010 15:57 GMT
#2
don't care much for this. but why are you conidering 5-0 if a best of 5 is defined by a player winning 3 out 5 matches?
;o
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
January 20 2010 15:58 GMT
#3
There's SLIIIGHT problem with your calculations. Odds of his winning the series 5-0 are 0, same for 4-1, same for losing 1-4 and losing 0-5.

BO5 = till one of the players has 3 wins
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9947 Posts
January 20 2010 16:01 GMT
#4
you can't consider 4-1 or 5-0 cause that can't happen.
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
January 20 2010 16:01 GMT
#5
Also, you only generally play Bo5s vs great opponents (semis and finals) of tournaments. His 68% win percentage includes everyone, from qualifiers to bo1 proleague games, etc.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 16:04:44
January 20 2010 16:02 GMT
#6
Thanks for crunching the numbers. The phenomenon that you mention --- where a player who's simply better than the field will have a very high Bo5 win percentage by the very nature of a Bo5 --- is sometimes overlooked. It seems like Jaedong really is the Bo5 master though --- as the games progress, his opponents get more and more demoralized and Jaedong himself plays better and better. Jaedong has incredible mental strength (see: Batoo finals) and that makes him especially dangerous.

edit: I see the math is a little wonky but I think the main point stands: Jaedong's success in Bo5's is greater than you'd expect from his normal win ratio, especially since Bo5's tend to be against a higher class of opponent than random proleague matches.
May the BeSt man win.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
January 20 2010 16:03 GMT
#7
there are 6 possibilities, not 32 wtf

winning 3-0, 3-1, 3-2 or losing 0-3, 1-3, 2-3
And all is illuminated.
Wurzelbrumpft
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Germany471 Posts
January 20 2010 16:04 GMT
#8
On January 21 2010 00:52 qrs wrote:

In short: it doesn't seem that Jaedong plays particularly clutch in deciding games of series or anything, but it does seem that when he is in best-of-5's, his overall gameplay is kicked up a notch.


I also read the rest of the text, but this is contradicting yourself. Kicking your gameplay up a notch in best-of-5 games, is playing particularly clutch in deciding games.
beam me up scotty, this planet suxX
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 16:08:47
January 20 2010 16:05 GMT
#9
On January 21 2010 00:57 timmeh wrote:
don't care much for this. but why are you conidering 5-0 if a best of 5 is defined by a player winning 3 out 5 matches?

On January 21 2010 00:58 Kaniol wrote:
There's SLIIIGHT problem with your calculations. Odds of his winning the series 5-0 are 0, same for 4-1, same for losing 1-4 and losing 0-5.

BO5 = till one of the players has 3 wins

Right, should have clarified that, but my post was already getting so long that I didn't want to bloat it even further.

Technically you guys are right that those phantom games (say, the last two in a potential 5-0 victory) are not actually played, but it's just convenient to think of them that way. Otherwise, I would have to distinguish between winning the first 3 games, winning 3 of the first 4 or winning 3 of the first 5.

As far as the odds go, it boils down to the same thing. Think of it this way: if I have X chance of winning a series that is played until decided, would playing the extra matches (as in a showmatch) have any effect on my chance of winning the series?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 20 2010 16:08 GMT
#10
On January 21 2010 01:04 Wurzelbrumpft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2010 00:52 qrs wrote:

In short: it doesn't seem that Jaedong plays particularly clutch in deciding games of series or anything, but it does seem that when he is in best-of-5's, his overall gameplay is kicked up a notch.


I also read the rest of the text, but this is contradicting yourself. Kicking your gameplay up a notch in best-of-5 games, is playing particularly clutch in deciding games.

You can say that he plays clutch in games of a bo5, compared to his usual play. I just meant that he doesn't play "clutcher" in deciding games of the series than in the series overall. IOW, it's not like, say, he plays like regular Jaedong until he is faced with losing the series and then he goes into overdrive. Just an observation.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
January 20 2010 16:09 GMT
#11
He usually drops game 1 for the hell of it and then turns up the heat in games 2-4
May the BeSt man win.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 16:15:41
January 20 2010 16:10 GMT
#12
On January 21 2010 01:03 freelander wrote:
there are 6 possibilities, not 32 wtf

winning 3-0, 3-1, 3-2 or losing 0-3, 1-3, 2-3


Which will lower the % of BO5's that he will win. Which makes his BO5 record very impressive.

EDIT - having thought about it - maybe I took the wrong approach initially.

WWW

WWLW
WLWW
LWWW

WWLLW
WLWLW
LWWLW
WLLWW
LWLWW
LLWWW

Same number of ways to lose.
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Katsuge
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore7730 Posts
January 20 2010 16:10 GMT
#13
calculation doesnt make sense since u included 4-1 and 5-0 in it.
김태연 | 정은지 | 아이유 |  한효주 | 이민정 <3 -|||- 소녀시대 에이핑크 사랑해!
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
January 20 2010 16:10 GMT
#14
ohm, interesting
3-0 incoming
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 16:15:11
January 20 2010 16:13 GMT
#15
On January 21 2010 01:05 qrs wrote:
Right, should have clarified that, but my post was already getting so long that I didn't want to bloat it even further.

Technically you guys are right that those phantom games (say, the last two in a potential 5-0 victory) are not actually played, but it's just convenient to think of them that way. Otherwise, I would have to distinguish between winning the first 3 games, winning 3 of the first 4 or winning 3 of the first 5.

As far as the odds go, it boils down to the same thing. Think of it this way: if I have X chance of winning a series that is played until decided, would playing the extra matches (as in a showmatch) have any effect on my chances of winning the series?

The problem is this: you have 5 possible ways to win 4-1 and 10 possible ways to win 3-2.

I'm assuming your 5 possible 4-1s are:
LWWWW
WLWWW
WWLWW
WWWLW
WWWWL

You can't collapse the 4-1 group into 3-1 wins, because the latter 2 cases would technically be identical to 3-0 wins. Similarly, with 3-2s, your 10 possible combinations are:

LLWWW
LWLWW
LWWLW
LWWWL
WLLWW
WLWLW
WLWWL
WWLLW
WWLWL
WWWLL

While these are 3-2s with regard to the combination of 5 games, the bolded sets are actually resolved as 3-1s and the italicized one as a 3-0, because the losses are never reached. Your chance of winning a Bo5 overall is the same, but your chance of winning with a particular result is different.
Moderator
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
January 20 2010 16:14 GMT
#16
On January 21 2010 01:05 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2010 00:57 timmeh wrote:
don't care much for this. but why are you conidering 5-0 if a best of 5 is defined by a player winning 3 out 5 matches?

Show nested quote +
On January 21 2010 00:58 Kaniol wrote:
There's SLIIIGHT problem with your calculations. Odds of his winning the series 5-0 are 0, same for 4-1, same for losing 1-4 and losing 0-5.

BO5 = till one of the players has 3 wins

Right, should have clarified that, but my post was already getting so long that I didn't want to bloat it even further.

Technically you guys are right that those phantom games (say, the last two in a potential 5-0 victory) are not actually played, but it's just convenient to think of them that way. Otherwise, I would have to distinguish between winning the first 3 games, winning 3 of the first 4 or winning 3 of the first 5.

As far as the odds go, it boils down to the same thing. Think of it this way: if I have X chance of winning a series that is played until decided, would playing the extra matches (as in a showmatch) have any effect on my chance of winning the series?


No, but 4-1 could be 3-0 and then he drops the (nonexistent) 4th game.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 20 2010 16:16 GMT
#17
On January 21 2010 01:14 Pokebunny wrote:
No, but 4-1 could be 3-0 and then he drops the (nonexistent) 4th game.

Strictly speaking, it's still a win, so it doesn't affect his overall likelihood of winning a Bo5, it just factors in when you're trying to analyze his chance of winning in 3/4/5 games.
Moderator
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 16:23:53
January 20 2010 16:18 GMT
#18
On January 21 2010 01:01 Hot_Bid wrote:
Also, you only generally play Bo5s vs great opponents (semis and finals) of tournaments. His 68% win percentage includes everyone, from qualifiers to bo1 proleague games, etc.

Right, I mentioned that at the end. Sorry if my OP is a bit schizoid: the fact is that I started writing it expecting to find that there was no significant Jaedong bo5 effect, but when I discovered that page of stats on Liquipedia, I had to change my mind.
On January 21 2010 01:01 RaGe wrote:
you can't consider 4-1 or 5-0 cause that can't happen.

On January 21 2010 01:03 freelander wrote:
there are 6 possibilities, not 32 wtf

winning 3-0, 3-1, 3-2 or losing 0-3, 1-3, 2-3

OK, so many people are bringing this up that I see it was a terrible idea to gloss over it in the OP.

You're right, there are 6 actual possibilities. But here's what I meant: suppose you build a tree of possibilities:

G1
/\
1-0 0-1
/\ /\
etc. If you extend that to the bottom, there would be 32 leaves. It's just that we cut off the branches that don't make a difference. So, for instance 3-0 is the equivalent of 4 different outcomes, all of which result in the same player's victory. As far as odds go, though, if you want to count every possibility for a series win as being equally likely (which is how I was doing it), then you have to think of a 3-0 victory as four possibilities in one. If you prefer, you can say that there are only 6 outcomes, but some are more likely than others (3-2 is much more likely than 3-0). It boils down to exactly the same thing.

edit:
On January 21 2010 01:13 TheYango wrote:
...While these are 3-2s with regard to the combination of 5 games, the bolded sets are actually resolved as 3-1s and the italicized one as a 3-0, because the losses are never reached. Your chance of winning a Bo5 overall is the same, but your chance of winning with a particular result is different.
Exactly right. All I was interested in was the chance of winning a bo5 overall. Sorry for going at it in such an unclear way.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4198 Posts
January 20 2010 16:19 GMT
#19
On January 21 2010 01:05 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2010 00:57 timmeh wrote:
don't care much for this. but why are you conidering 5-0 if a best of 5 is defined by a player winning 3 out 5 matches?

Show nested quote +
On January 21 2010 00:58 Kaniol wrote:
There's SLIIIGHT problem with your calculations. Odds of his winning the series 5-0 are 0, same for 4-1, same for losing 1-4 and losing 0-5.

BO5 = till one of the players has 3 wins

Right, should have clarified that, but my post was already getting so long that I didn't want to bloat it even further.

Technically you guys are right that those phantom games (say, the last two in a potential 5-0 victory) are not actually played, but it's just convenient to think of them that way. Otherwise, I would have to distinguish between winning the first 3 games, winning 3 of the first 4 or winning 3 of the first 5.

As far as the odds go, it boils down to the same thing. Think of it this way: if I have X chance of winning a series that is played until decided, would playing the extra matches (as in a showmatch) have any effect on my chance of winning the series?


That makes complete sense to me now. I was initially confused with what you were saying.
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
KarlSberg~
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
731 Posts
January 20 2010 16:30 GMT
#20
Calculation seems right. (even though considering 5-0, 4-1 scores might seem weird to most ppl)

This is an interesting read, but the conclusion is... not really shocking. The difference between his individual/series statistics might not be huge but considering the fact that series opponents are likely a tad better, it seems enough to say he plays particularily good in series.

What I'm wondering is, isn't this true for other S-Class players?
There are 01 kind of people who know binary. Those who understand little endian and those who don t.
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: GosuLeague
19:15
Quarter Finals
Hejek vs Herbmon
Semih vs Kyrie
cavapoo vs TousaN
ZZZero.O25
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 718
BRAT_OK 95
UpATreeSC 87
MindelVK 45
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 5365
Sea 2031
Dewaltoss 188
Aegong 49
ZZZero.O 25
Sacsri 19
yabsab 16
Dota 2
Pyrionflax50
Counter-Strike
fl0m6500
olofmeister3112
rGuardiaN105
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu487
Khaldor160
Other Games
tarik_tv40737
gofns14329
Grubby1474
FrodaN811
Beastyqt689
ceh9622
shahzam259
Mew2King82
ZombieGrub69
TKL 65
QueenE55
Trikslyr54
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream1298
Other Games
BasetradeTV94
StarCraft 2
angryscii 47
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta31
• Reevou 4
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix4
• Michael_bg 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21590
League of Legends
• Jankos1623
• TFBlade886
Other Games
• imaqtpie1095
• Shiphtur341
• WagamamaTV164
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
4h 36m
GSL Code S
14h 6m
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 6h
GSL Code S
1d 14h
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.