• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:05
CEST 05:05
KST 12:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
$5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy2GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding3Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Quebec Clan still alive ? Best Time to Book Blue Mountains Private Tours for BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win
Tourneys
GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. Gypsy to Korea Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen [BSL22] RO32 Group Stage
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL22] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CEST [BSL22] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CEST 🌍 Weekly Foreign Showmatches
Strategy
Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Loot Boxes—Emotions, And Why…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2242 users

Foundation

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 04:20:12
November 29 2009 03:31 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Banner by Me! Woo

Working collectively and collaboratively is the difference between mediocrity by yourself...or success as a team.- Michael Bloomberg

When you think of a team, you think of its stars. You think Jaedong for Hwaseung, Zero for Woongjin, Flash for KT, and Bisu for SK. That element of a team, their ace, their star, their giant, is their most obvious aspect. He's the man who brings home Starleagues, barely scraped a win for his teammates in the 5th set, the man who brings fans from the team and makes haters cry when he crushes their most beloved progamer.

This round, we've seen the death of the one man team. Hwaseung OZ in particular has been in a lot of trouble for their lack of depth. They've been able to occasionally take things to ace, where Jaedong can take a win, but against stronger and deep teams, 3-1 losses are almost inevitable.

That's why what Coach Cho is doing is so smart. He's building a foundation. Playing Killer and Perfectman in hopes of creating a team capable of supporting their star player. Forget about the FA business, in the long run it's going to help Hwaseung more than it hurts them. If they have to toss a season, so be it.

Experience matters. A player who dominates in practice doesn't immediately transfer that over to TV games. Flash was tearing things up in practice as early as his days on Pantech & Curel, well before he had done anything substantial as a televised gamer.

JangBi was well known as "Samsung's best player" before he had showed any evidence of that. As he gained experience in televised matches, he soon began to show his excellent play in the practice house on the e-sports stage.

[image loading]

A nurturing mother


Samsung is in an unfortunate position. Stork is the only player performing well. They went from one of the strongest rosters in the league (Think Jangbi/Stork/firebathero/great isn't imba? Think again) to one of the weakest. However, January is smarter than she may seem. She continues to play firebathero and Jangbi, she knows whatever funk they're in will subside. Great continues to put up moderate results and with a new and improved Stork, they at least have a protoss/zerg one-two punch to take it to ace.

Jangbi and firebathero need to become comfortable with playing on television once more and restore their confidence. Samsung has a broken foundation but it's being repaired. Hwaseung doesn't have a foundation. Coach Cho is desperately trying to build one (losing Anytime hurt) from their youngest players. 1-2 seasons from now, his work will show. People will look back and say "Oh. He was smart to play Killer in the ace match all those times."

Just look at the difference between KT now and before. Sure, Flash and Luxury were always capable of pulling off wins. However, with the depth of Violet, Stats, and an improved 815, KT are just dominating their opponents. Firefist and Tempest are even winning their matches.

Depth is important because you can't always predict whats going to happen. You can expect Jaedong to muscle his way through most players but what happens when someone prepares a genius snipe for him (see sKyHigh versus Jaedong on Destination) or he falls into a slump?

Even without Flash, KT can pull out the win. Violet has great PvT/PvP, Luxury is still doing some amazing things in Proleague, 815 looks fantastic in ZvZ, Stats is a capable player. If Flash is sniped, it's not all over. Violet won his ace match against Mind after being thrust into an unfavorable position. SKT1 (the so-called masters of the universe) failed against Rolster, even with Flash losing his set.

[image loading]

Deceivingly cute


Woongjin began posting good results as soon as Free and Kwanro started playing back in form. Even with a proleague monster like ZerO, they lacked the critical foundation that a good proleague team needs.

In fact, look at all of the top teams. WeMade have an incredible roster despite not having a single player who is very dominant. Mind/Midas/BaBy are a scary terran trio. BaBy is inconsistent but is improving fast. Mind and Midas are proven terrans who can consistently pull their weight in Proleague. Shine and RorO head up a pretty good zerg line, able to take games off even big names like Bisu. LuCifer/Pure aren't a Protoss line to laugh at. Pure qualified for the OSL this season and has shown some very very convincing PvT play. LuCifer won his first game of the season and is starting to find himself placed on the roster more and more. If you have a player, WeMade has a solid response. While they probably dont have a player who can beat Jaedong, Flash, or Stork, guess what happens in the other 3 matches?

That's why you need a foundation. That's why Hwaseung needs to build one. That's why KT is dominating. It takes a lot to support a star.
RIP Aaliyah
l10f *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3241 Posts
November 29 2009 03:34 GMT
#2
You must really love writing

Nice work!
Writer
Dice
Profile Joined April 2009
Korea (South)926 Posts
November 29 2009 03:36 GMT
#3
GG DoctorHelvetica.. you need to chill man. Your fingers must be on fire! You're like everywhere on TL nowadays. Haha!

On a real note, great writeup! I'm really starting to enjoy your writings. ^^
Cu(oCo)
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Italy358 Posts
November 29 2009 03:37 GMT
#4
wow nice wall. reading it right now
Goons? just vulture toys 휴.휴
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
November 29 2009 04:00 GMT
#5
Just waiting for Killer to retire after being sunken rushed ^o^
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
November 29 2009 04:02 GMT
#6
Mmmm, this is tasty. You should compile all your articles in one place.
Jaedong
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
November 29 2009 04:04 GMT
#7
Agreed with Avidkeystamper, alot of your article really belong in Broodwar. Nice banner, I love all the articles you've written recently, and you're so verbose lately, its really great.
Deleted User 31060
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
3788 Posts
November 29 2009 04:10 GMT
#8
WeMade have an incredible roster despite having a single player who is very dominant


despite not having imo

nehhhhh I mean this article addresses the correct points but I think the examples you used don't really check out.

Take Hwaseung for example: of course they're not playing well, not only because they don't have a foundation, but also because they just don't really have anybody other than Jaedong. If they had 1-2 other S-class players and yet were still faltering, then yes I would say they were losing because they don't have a foundation. Also, using Samsung as an example of a team that's going to rebound is something I have to disagree with. Firebathero is way over the hill imo, Stork is 22, Jangbi might have 1-2 resurgences left in him, great can pull his weight, and that's it for their team.

I think the best example (which I didn't see here) would be STX. They have stars for each race, but they also have plenty of mid-level players that could be more defined as 'foundation'
Peaked at C- on ICCUP and proud of it! @Sunyveil
Cu(oCo)
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Italy358 Posts
November 29 2009 04:27 GMT
#9
You should compile all your articles in one place.
Goons? just vulture toys 휴.휴
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
November 29 2009 04:48 GMT
#10
Right now KT is the perfect mixture of having a nice selection of mid-level players (Firefist, Tempest, 815, Stats), a couple A-class players who can take games off the best (Violet and Luxury), and an unstoppable ace. This is the strongest they've been since the days of Nal_rA/Reach/YellOw.
May the BeSt man win.
horang3
Profile Joined November 2009
United States261 Posts
November 29 2009 04:58 GMT
#11
Very nice write up. The problem that faces the coaches of teams in the proleague is the same as the one that most high school and college coaches face. They want give experience to promising youngsters while still maintaining a winning record, which is hard to do.
Do great work
ryuu_
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States1266 Posts
November 29 2009 04:59 GMT
#12
I'm trying to imagine all the awesome writeups you're gonna throw out during Christmas, thanks once again!
♣ Jaedong. Stork. Bisu. Calm. NaDa. SC2: Sen, MKP, DRG, MMA, Grubby, NonY, Ret, Jinro, TLO, Sheth, HayprO, Zenio,Taeja,Snute, Sea, Rain, MC,Squirtle,Stephano,Parting ,Life, and HEROOOOO <3
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
November 29 2009 07:06 GMT
#13
nice jabs at SKT and Bisu lol
KTY
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 07:08:30
November 29 2009 07:07 GMT
#14
-nvm-
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
November 29 2009 07:08 GMT
#15
On November 29 2009 13:10 Sunyveil wrote:
Show nested quote +
WeMade have an incredible roster despite having a single player who is very dominant


despite not having imo

nehhhhh I mean this article addresses the correct points but I think the examples you used don't really check out.

Take Hwaseung for example: of course they're not playing well, not only because they don't have a foundation, but also because they just don't really have anybody other than Jaedong. If they had 1-2 other S-class players and yet were still faltering, then yes I would say they were losing because they don't have a foundation. Also, using Samsung as an example of a team that's going to rebound is something I have to disagree with. Firebathero is way over the hill imo, Stork is 22, Jangbi might have 1-2 resurgences left in him, great can pull his weight, and that's it for their team.

I think the best example (which I didn't see here) would be STX. They have stars for each race, but they also have plenty of mid-level players that could be more defined as 'foundation'


having 3 s-class players is more than a foundation

a'la skt1
RIP Aaliyah
wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 07:11:56
November 29 2009 07:11 GMT
#16
I think the big complaint with Hwasung is that they should wait till the perspective ace can win non-ace games before sending them out into ace matchs. Estro tried, Hwasung's current strategy, with Puma and look where that got him.

If you don't know who Puma is you got my point exactly.
DivinO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4796 Posts
November 29 2009 07:13 GMT
#17
Thanks, DH. Making us feel good about our teams that aren't doing well.
LiquipediaBrain in my filth.
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5725 Posts
November 29 2009 07:14 GMT
#18
i dont see how playing killer and perfectman for ace would "improve" them in any way. maybe it'll give them ACE match experience, but it could also hurt their confidence because they let their team down when it mattered most, and they're still relatively inexperienced, so they might not shake it off so easily.
4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-29 07:17:17
November 29 2009 07:16 GMT
#19
I actually knew that Puma was some Terran player

I see where hwaseung is going with their attempts, but wswordsmen is totally right. There's no point in sending out your non-ace players in ace matches to give them experience if they can't even win their regular matches (which is usually why the series needed to play out the ace match in the first place).

I think that sending them out for ace and having them fail there is even worse, because your team was counting on you and you let them down. It's more mentally damaging than a regular loss for sure.
Sullifam
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
November 29 2009 07:21 GMT
#20
Furthermore, this strategy has been employed before by some of the best coaches in the business. Particularly, Coach Ha of MBC (then Pirates of Space) in 2005. POS where one game away from making the playoffs, literally, and instead of playing Pusan or July who would have pretty much guaranteed victory for the team, the played Sea in the Ace match. This isn't Sea the beast we know and love, but rather Sea the inexperienced 15 year old gamer - and he was put out in the most important game of the entire season for POS. What happened? Sea lost. And POS did not make the playoffs.

Why would Coach Ha voluntarily sacrifice an entire season for this stunt? Well firstly, whats the point of going to the post season if your team doesn't have the depth to be competitive? Back then Pusan and July were all that was holding the team together, with no support from other games, there was no way they could win a best of seven. And secondly, it developed character in Sea and gave him invaluable experience. Indeed, a year later in the 2006 Proleague Grand Finals between MBC and SKT, the score was tied 3-3. Who did MBC turn to? They turned to Sea, and he defeated GoRush - winning MBC the title. The excellent foresight of Coach Ha to play Sea a year earlier resulted in MBC winning the big prize a year later. Hwaseung is employing the same strategy now. So despite the frustration it brings to the fans, this is a necessary move to make for Hwaseung's success.
- Backseat BW Vol.3

It's worked before.
RIP Aaliyah
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
CranKy Ducklings
00:00
TLMC #22: Map Judging #2
CranKy Ducklings35
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 325
RuFF_SC2 212
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 6394
firebathero 527
NaDa 31
Noble 31
Terrorterran 20
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm117
League of Legends
JimRising 751
Counter-Strike
taco 643
Stewie2K18
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox454
Other Games
summit1g12189
C9.Mang0431
PiGStarcraft354
Maynarde120
ViBE112
Mew2King26
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• EnkiAlexander 24
• practicex 21
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP4
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki23
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4732
• TFBlade1662
Other Games
• Scarra1203
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Team League
7h 55m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 6h
WardiTV Team League
1d 7h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 11h
BSL
1d 15h
n0maD vs perroflaco
TerrOr vs ZZZero
MadiNho vs WolFix
DragOn vs LancerX
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Team League
2 days
OSC
2 days
BSL
2 days
Sterling vs Azhi_Dahaki
Napoleon vs Mazur
Jimin vs Nesh
spx vs Strudel
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
GSL
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.