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EDIT: Please someone explain to me how to hold this off in this new replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?uzatmniw2nw
So a Terran did a 10 rax into fast reaper build against me and the math on getting out your first stalker is just not adding up to me right now.
From the time the Terran starts his Barracks, it takes 125 seconds for the first reaper to come out. Had my opponent placed his Barracks at the bottom right hand corner of his base (which would be better against all spawns and thus should be done in this build), it would be a 17 second travel time according to the replay to get to my mineral line with his reaper.
This thus makes it a 142 second duration from the start of the barracks to the time the reaper would get to the protoss's mineral line.
From the time the Protoss start's his first Pylon assuming perfect building production (starting each building as soon as the previous finishes), it takes 182 seconds for the first stalker to come out. Assuming you use your chrono boost on the stalker (it takes 2 to do it fully) it will take 171.5 seconds for the first stalker to come out.
This gives Terran a 30 second advantage assuming they start their barracks/pylon at the same time from when the reaper gets to the protoss's mineral line to when the protoss gets out his first Stalker.
With a 10 barracks build the barracks was started around 1:05. With a later tested 9 barracks build the barracks was started around 1:00 (I feel like maybe this wasn't fully optimized? should be more than 5 seconds I think).
Thus in order for the Protoss to get a stalker out in time to prevent reaper damage to his mineral line the Protoss would have to start his Pylon 30 seconds into the game. At this point the Protoss is at 8 food but does not have enough money to build a pylon, and thus the Protoss would have to build the Pylon at 7 food to be able to get the Stalker out on time.
However, if you build your pylon at 7 food you simply will not have enough resources to keep up constant building production so your build will be delayed anyways.
Thus it seems physically impossible to get a stalker out in time even with chrono boosting and ridiculous probe cutting to prevent this kind of reaper harass.
Does this seem balanced to you guys? Forge openings are not viable, so please don't suggest them as the terran will just go 14CC fast expand as soon as he scouts it.
Here's two replays, first of it happening without me knowing what was going on and then later a test game in which I try to cut probes to get out a very fast Stalker:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qummbzic0dt
http://www.mediafire.com/?jwvgjzjh42o
Thanks for advice and suggestions.
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Oh my God, that kid in the stream who was just "LOL JUST GO FORGE + CANNONS TO HOLD HIM OFF. I DO IT ALL THE TIME" was so annoying >_> I didn't catch the original game, so imma look at that right away.
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I'm really torn on these builds. I personally struggle more with the super-fast-marauder rush of doom.
Anyway, my problem is that yes you can hold these off by going overboard preparing for a super fast rush... but... what if they don't rush? I try to scout super early vs terran to see if they are going rax or supply first. It just feels like if I guessed wrong, I'm majorly screwed.
I cut probes and prepared hardcore for that super early reaper. Then I find out my opponent did a normal multi-rax after supply opening, and there's no way I'm going to hold off the M&M&G push.
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On April 03 2010 02:43 Fruscainte wrote:
Oh my God, that kid in the stream who was just "LOL JUST GO FORGE + CANNONS TO HOLD HIM OFF. I DO IT ALL THE TIME" was so annoying >_> I didn't catch the original game, so imma look at that right away.
Well I think the obvious solution is to rush to carriers. :D
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Saw this on Orb's stream
Even if you do figure out something, you have to cut probes really really badly
Your economy will be be in horrible shape that in the long run...
I also don't see the answer to this :/
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And of course Orb just tested going 7 pylon and cutting probes to get the early Stalker, and the Stalker is still 12 seconds late.
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I think the only real solution is to expect to lose a few probes -- get a zealot out that can keep pressure on the reaper while you wait for your stalker. You'll make up for the lost probes with chronoboost (as you're already way ahead of terran's worker count).
As you said, fast forge is fail and so is super fast stalker rush (to defend). That doesn't leave many options. You could try blocking some of the common reaper running routes with pylons too -- behind your mins, etc.
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I have yet to ran into this myself mostly because I have not been laddering myself lately due to irl issues but from what I've seen it does seem to be a pretty significant disadvantage if you do manage to hold it off.
I am a Protoss user so I am not going to say it's imba however I would like to see how some terran's view on how to deal with this kind marauder or reaper aggression.
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zerg FE gets completely shut down by this as well. I discussed it in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118166
it seems these new reaper rush builds need somewhat of a re-balance .. anything that comes that early in the game shouldn't require such a drastic response as to change the entire match up.
except for epic scv rushes or something.
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The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X
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I played with torch quite frequently, and he only opens up with this. I go 10 pylon/11 gate and chrono the stalker. It gets your stalker out not very much later than when the reaper shows up. I've experimented with 9 pylon 12/13 gate and I just found it too weak vs early aggression in any matchup. Protoss can be a worker behind for a little bit cause they'll catch up very very quickly with chrono. I've never had an issue with reapers. He can maybe kill 1-2 probes if he has fantastic micro, that's about it.
If you scout fast tech lab without a marine or are just unsure, save a chrono for that stalker, it makes a huge difference.
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if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be
use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker
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Jack, he already tested it. Even if you rush STalker from the very beginning (which is stupid to do standard, so you're basically blind building without knowing if he's rushing or not to MAYBE hold off a rush) you're still late for probe harass. Then you're so far behind because you had to massively cut probes to even be remotely ready, that you just get steamrolled in a few minutes anyways.
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On April 03 2010 02:59 jackofclubs81 wrote:
if u hold off the reaper ull have an advantage, they arent as imba as they used to be
use a zeal to buy time for ur stalker
You don't need a zeal if you go 10/11 pylon/gate. That's the point. In the end you'll lose less probes (if any) and be in a BETTER economic shape than if you did 9/12 or 9/13. Your tech is also faster. I'm not saying 9/13 is bad, but I think it's got some risks.
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Haha; heard you on the stream reading my comment. I'm not suggesting it's balanced, but, it's all you can do 
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it feels like the reaper needs an extra building (much like the DT) to access its tech... Merc Haven, anyone?
maybe adjust its role by giving it spider mines =P
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I was practicing vs this reaper build with a friend (he wanted practice vs a protoss) and i did a 8 pylon 10 gate (chrono boost for the fast probes before the pylon is finished too). Throw up your 2nd pylon to block your mineral lines and have a zealot come out before cyber finishes and you can force the reaper to run around (or get stuck and not get behind your mineral line) so he cant do damage.
Im not a great protoss player and i suck at 1v1, but out of all the openings i tried (forge opening, 9/13 gate, cutting probes etc) this worked the best.
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10 Barracks Reaper builds cut SCVs significantly. I'll need to watch the replays, but I'd love to know the worker counts on both sides at key points in the build. I bet he's going to need to kill 4 or 5 probes to bring it back to even.
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From what i noticed when playing my friend, he cuts scvs at 10 to get stuff out quickly. Then he builds his scvs whenever he has an extra 50 minerals while continuing his tech to fact/port. Normally I keep up more workers than he does the entire game, but im not really good at 1v1 so i never know when i am ahead and i just played defensively entire game (so eventually his harass got to me and he killed me)
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aha, I see SC2 is the reverse of SC1, now Terran rage against early game proxie cheese has turned into early game rage against reaper openings lol.
ok, but really, they are cutting/delaying SCVs for the fast reaper to do probe damage, get a zealot/micro probes as best as possible till your stalker is out and you are fine if not even.
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EPT
