EPT[G] Standard Play Part 1: PvZ iNcontroL Style - Page 9
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AcrosstheSky
United States237 Posts
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UisTehSux
United States693 Posts
There will no longer be a strategy forum but a strategy thread series. :D | ||
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sharktopus.
United States456 Posts
On May 26 2011 11:53 AcrosstheSky wrote: Just a warning about trying this build now. When the OP was made it was before zerg had figured out their zergling roach all in. If they do this and you 3 gate fast expand you WILL die now. If you go 3 gate fe you need to disgue it or do something like Huk does, using dark templar to keep the zerg back before he gets his lair up. I tried that today, even hid my DT tech, and the guy made a blind overseer and still beat me. That roach/ling all in is killing me, I really don't know what to do. I feel like winning with 3 gate expand at this point is just luck.... | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
If you like hallucinate you can start it ASAP after warp completes, then send out the hallucinated phoenix at the same time as you start your cannon(s). If you don't see roaches by the time the phoenix reaches his base, you can cancel the cannon(s) and use the money for a gateway or assimilators. If you don't like hallucinate, you can still spend 100% of your gas income on sentries with just two gates, by using a single chronoboost on your first gateway. This is thanks to the reduced sentry build time. | ||
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sharktopus.
United States456 Posts
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AcrosstheSky
United States237 Posts
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sharktopus.
United States456 Posts
On May 26 2011 15:38 AcrosstheSky wrote: sharktopus-the thing with the dark templar is that if hes got an overseer then it means hes got a lair so his roach ling timing attack will be delayed enough so you won't straight up die to it anymore ^^. i still managed to die to it  | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
Theres a huge discussion about 3Gate-Sentry-Expand vs Roach/Ling-All-In going on here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224424 You can find a lot of valuable Informations out of that thread, including advice by Minigun and a like. My opinion on that topic still remains: I met Roach/Ling-Allins quite often on the ladder and I'm 3Gate-Sentry-Expanding every game (~1000 Points ML). In my opinion its still doable under certain circumstances. Those are: Dropping a Forge and a 4th Gateway while your nexus is building, going up to 8 Sentries ASAP and getting some Stalkers afterwards combined with one cannon close to your nexus (You need that to be safe against Burrowpushes anyway). Now to the important stuff: First you aren't as blind as a lot of people try to put it - in fact, most of the time getting mapcontrol is as easy as warping in a second zealot and walk up to the Xel-Naga-Towers. Two possibilites: 1.you clean up his scout ling(s) and can proceed to walk up to his base, checking his saturation or how much units he has (Thats why you need 2 btw, because 1 could die to 4 zerglings) 2. He kills two Zealots which requires more zerglings than a zerg would regularly build - guess what could happen Second: When you realize that all-in is coming - DONT GET MORE STALKERS. I made that mistake for a long time but in fact Zealots are far better in smaller numbers when their prey cant run from them and roaches are neither quick nor big in numbers for this push. Third: Stay close to your buildings. You have a lot of FFs at your disposal but its still important to use them wisely. I crushed a lot of those pushes without losing a single unit by trapping the roaches close to my buildings with 3 FFs and killing them from afar. Basically the defense of the push consists of two things: killing the roaches (unimportant) and killing the speedlings (important). The roaches only exist to bait your units out in the open where the speedlings can do the job - as soon as the speedlings are dead you can easily surround the roaches with FFs and finish them off. But because of that dynamic you have to wait until he sacrifices his Speedlings in any way - if that means that its neccessary to let him take down a pylon/Gate/your Forge then fine - let him get that building, wait for him to stream his speedlings in and place the nail in the coffin - if hes not doing that you are fine as well for obvious reasons. And as with every Cheese: Stay calm! Don't forget to get pylons (Including the ones that the Zerg could kill), warp-in your units and eventually get some additional cannons if you're stockpiling minerals because of the situation anyway. tl;dr-Version: * Get a Forge and a Gateway while expanding * Use a group of two zealots to scout * If the all-in is coming stall your Stalkerproduktion, pump out zealots * Stay close to your buildings * Utilize your buildings/FFs to trap speedlings and be able to kill them * Stay calm and sharp - don't forget to do what you need to win * Be patient, don't go out in the open until you are sure that there's no mob of speedlings waiting for you | ||
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
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gavinashun
101 Posts
 Thanks | ||
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spawnferkel
Germany87 Posts
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On June 07 2011 21:05 spawnferkel wrote: how to respond if he steal my second gas ? 1,1k ML P Get a couple more zealots out and use them to scout the map when you already have them. If you scout something all-inish like the Roach-Timing-Attack with that then get down couple more cannons at your expo to make up for the lack of gas units. On top of that get the gas at your expansion quicker, thats really all about it, don't panic | ||
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whereismymind
United Kingdom717 Posts
I have problems that I stockpile a lot minerals lately before expanding, so I am forced to expand while I have 1 zealot and 3 sentries only. I simply don't have that much gas for 6-7-8 sentires. Replay would be very helpful! Thank you. | ||
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CardinalSC
United States145 Posts
Edit: Game time not relative times | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 25 2011 07:17 CardinalSC wrote: What is the general timing of when the expansion should go down and when that pressure push around 10 minutes usually comes out? (Shark mode). Edit: Game time not relative times Visit sc2rep.com -> download pvz replay -> figure out timing. | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
On May 26 2011 14:19 Keilah wrote: 2gate expand and get the nexus, forge, and cannon(s) faster. You will add the 4th gateway at the same time as ever, the third will be delayed until after the forge but that's ok, you don't need it so fast anymore thanks to the reduced build time on sentries. By not wasting 150 minerals on an early gateway that will sit idle, you get the cannon(s) up in time to defend the roach/ling attack. You also start the nexus a few seconds faster, a nice little bonus. If you like hallucinate you can start it ASAP after warp completes, then send out the hallucinated phoenix at the same time as you start your cannon(s). If you don't see roaches by the time the phoenix reaches his base, you can cancel the cannon(s) and use the money for a gateway or assimilators. If you don't like hallucinate, you can still spend 100% of your gas income on sentries with just two gates, by using a single chronoboost on your first gateway. This is thanks to the reduced sentry build time. I want to echo this. I have actually been using a hallu first 2gate forge expand, and ever since I've started using this build I simply have NEVER lost to a roach-ling all-in, so long as i made my simcity properly and scouted with hallucination correctly, and to show an example I have some replays just to demonstrate how easily I survive and how badly the zerg gets manhandled upon a counterattack: game 1: http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=2978 game 2: http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=2979 game 1: I want to be critical of some mistakes I made that would have made this even easier for me to defend, because you'll see I got a little bit flustered but was able to hold him off anyway. I always get a 2nd pylon here to accompany the cannon, as the roaches focus firing down the pylon is basically the first thing the zerg is going to try to do. If I had done that, he would have lost a lot more units at this initial engagement as I would have had much earlier stalker warp-ins and could chase him out while killing off roaches. But nevertheless, he still gets his worker count decimated when I attack the first time, and the second time I have 1-1 with 6gates as he's trying to catch up. game 2: My simcity was faulty here and I should have been able to hang on without the fifth gateway (I only get a fifth gateway on xelnaga caverns where you have to stretch extremely far out for a wall-off), but regardless it doesn't seem to affect the match very much. You could make the argument that he should have run speedlings to my sentries a lot earlier than he did, but I was staying near my ramp just in case this happened so that I could use a minimal number of forcefields to completely seal him off of my army before my stalker warp-ins came out. Rules I follow: 1) 2gas before core to allow myself to have 200 gas right when the core pops, for both hallu and sentry 2) chronoboost sentries constantly for completely smooth gas usage, utilizing every single vespene cleanly 3) simcity at the natural requires a gateway wall without pylons - variations of this build that include getting the forge at the natural are OK, but the most important part is that you DO NOT use a pylon for surface area even though it seems convenient 4) i wait on the additional gateways and cannons as i scout with the hallu; if i see the roach-ling all-in coming it's required that i lay down the cannon BEFORE surrounding it with gateways, as warpgate won't quite finish before he arrives (it usually happens at the same time) and having a gateway wall to shield my cannon from zerglings far outweighs having the additional gateways up a little sooner the most important part about surviving roach-ling all-ins revolves around key forcefield usage. if some of your forcefields aren't helpful or are wasted, you will probably lose. the way i play this out gives me EXTREMELY efficient usage of forcefields. zerg wants to focus fire your pylon down to cause you to lose power to buildings AND to open another attack path, which you will be forced to use forcefields over - which means fewer forcefields to block off zerglings. a pylonless wall prevents this situation, and the importance of this cannot be overstated. i still see a lot of pros manage to hold off roach-lings with a pylon in the wall, but it's dangerous and on a map like xelnaga caverns i don't think it's possible. also, on any map with medium-close'ish spawns it's very important to scout the zerg's expansion location right around the 4:30 minute mark to scout for the 1-base roach-ling all-in, which is extremely weak to 3wg expand but will easily beat a 2gate forge expand. if you scout that you should just cancel hallu and chrono the shit out of WG research while getting 3 more gateways without cutting probes; you'll have 4sentries to perma forcefield your ramp so you should just be patient and let your gateways and economy manifest. you usually need to pump a few stalkers from gateways prior to WG finishing if this is the case since WG is delayed. the importance of identifying the 1-base play and switching gears (edit) also cannot be overstated. edit: regardless of whether better players determine that my style especially with hallu-first is not viable, i wanna shoutout to travis for giving me a reason to come up with this build and optimize it i had been literally devastated by roach-ling all-ins before he made his thread about 2gate forge expand (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223087), and when he made the post i gave it a good long deliberation and worked on this | ||
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panda_inc
Australia170 Posts
EDIT: also it is too risky to put on early pressure and some zergs might sneak in a third and whore up on drones and make it really hard for you. EDIT2: I think it is better these days to try scout for that sneaky early third and just go for a 2 base push to kill the zerg. EDIT3: like lots of others have mentioned must prepare for roach ling all in. but that would just set you behind. its better to sneak a probe out at 5 min to scout and drop earlier robo/stargate/watever | ||
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EnvYStarcraft
United States58 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On September 16 2011 04:22 Legen wrote: I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks I have seen a number of pros going 3-gate-sentry-expand of late on their streams. I've seen both Puzzle and Sase using 3-gate and having some success pressuring as their Nexus comes online.It seemed to fall out of fashion for awhile as FFEs on lots of maps (including Metal and Shattered) and 1-gate FE were popular. For myself, in lowly mid/high diamond, I don't find 3-gate pressure to be very effective as a lot of Z make early units (lots of lings) instead of droning hard like so many pros. ISTime has a build for a 2-gate expand which is pretty solid. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
On September 16 2011 04:22 Legen wrote: I know there was a warning of not bumping if i dont have a valid reason but I do. Being that this was made in February and given all the patch notes and the extinction of the protoss death ball (stalker colossus, from what im told) is this thread even worth paying much attention since the game has changed to much ZvP? Is this still worth following? thanks The opening is still ok, but the "Let's see if I can attack there"-style absolutely gets destroyed by a single Infestor catching 3Sentrys and3Stalkers. Even Blink and ForceFields aren't going to help you then, you just lost. Just scout if he goes for Infestors (Hallucination/Observer). If he does, get Colossus as fast as possible. If he doesn't you are facing MutaLing which forces you to defend in your own base anyways, so there's no chance for you to poke. The WarpPrism is going to get used more and more often though. IMO the new PvZ style is to turtle a bit but still try to harrass as much as possible and then go for a stronger army (Good upgraded 200/200 Stalker Colossus is still going to win against everything but Infestor/Broodlords) while expanding safely. | ||
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