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On January 19 2014 10:17 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 09:22 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
So the mines. If you cast them yourself ... they have no cast timer. They just launch like a widow mine shot.
Mines that you don't touch almost always die to A-move units due to the cast timer.
Whereas if you cast them yourself, they have no cast time, so A-move units don't do anything.
Is this intended? I will put a lot of APM behind casting those things myself because that is just sooo much more powerful. I definitely like the idea of triggering mines manually with 0 delayed time. It brings skill differential to terran players. It just looks like splash damage for manually triggered mines are a little bit of overkill. Scenario : vultures sneaks into the base sets mines and moves to harass workers. Hydras instantly reacts to defend but one mistake and a whole clumped of defending hydras instantly dies.
Sounds like brood war.
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On January 19 2014 06:28 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 04:45 decemberscalm wrote:On January 19 2014 03:53 NukeD wrote:
I was wondering, have you guys maybe tried putting health bars under the units? I remember there was a thread or blog with pics with hp bars under units and it looked much cleaner. Impossible to do unless we use weird custom UI stuff. Health bar modification is definently something we've taken a look at. I've done plenty of tooling around in that area myself. Really? I remember having a way to change the health bars quite a bit. Can you only change their size and design and not their location? I always forgot where in the data it was but I recall being able to adjust energy, shield, health bars quite a bit.
There is the possibility of adding a new health bars, but those work different than the default life bars. Also, it's not possible to add a proper shieldbar, cargo and ammunition (interceptors, scarabs) with it directly without implementing those by hand using triggers. Also, the bars are always drawn above the units.
So, that's not going to happen.
The lowest you can get the default health bars without making them disappear is onto a Zealot's face.
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On January 19 2014 06:45 ganil wrote:
My tought after almost 100 games (mainly T, sometimes Z and rarely P).
In general, my main complain is that their are too many overlapping units and useless complexity in that mod. I'd say it's better to keep things simple.
I'll try to be constructive.
Terran:
The design seems really weird and here is why. A lot of stuff doesn't behave like you would expect.
Maraudeurs and firebats: from a naked rax ? it seems kinda wrong.
Unlocking the goliath: you made a lot brain explode when they realised that they needed techlab to make goliath and armory to unlock it from the reactor. There should have only one way to unlock it.
The "chronoboost". It's weird aswell. It feels like you have way too much chrono and the production is just too fast if you chrono reactored rax. Also it doesn't apply the same bonus depending on the production facility.
Mines: in order to be effective, they need to be manually detonated. They're really good in that case, and completely trash if you let them detonate by themselves. They also burrow really slowly so you can't "counter" goons with vultures and mines. Also their range is not the same if you let them detonate or not. It's just weird.
Viking: it's just weak. It doesn't work at all. The goliath is better at everything (altough less mobile, it's less tech heavy). I think it would be better to redesign it and make it an all around solid aa unit (somewhere between the valk and the current viking. Like you did. Removing the ground stance and uppgrading the shit out of the unit. It also could would help to counter muta harass).
Zergs:
Zergs feels good. Really.
Queen: macro mechanic is odd. It somehow works tho.
Scourge: I don't think they overkill do they ? They did in broodwar... like tanks because they would be too good otherwise.
I did not played enough with roaches and the flying caster tho so I can't speak about them.
Overlords: why don't they detect ? but I understand your choice.
Protoss:
Warp gates: allow everything to be warped. It's late enough in the game. Also it's not instant. Otherwise it's just odd.
Stalkers: They're too similar too goons. Also they're really really weak and late tech. They're pretty cheap tho iirc. I don't think a lot of ppl like them in the current state.
Sentinels: They're annoying to play against. I'm not sure ppl like them (I personally don't).
Chronoboost: It feels too strong. You have too much of it imo.
General:
Air to ground units are really good. Limited selection solves it but you said it's not possible to implements.
Mutas and massed banshee are just insane. The latter is particulary retarded in TvT because vessels can't counter them.
Smartcast: for smartcast or against? It's debatable. OP as hell cast are cool, but you need to remove smartcast for it to work.
That's all for now !
I love the fact that there are so many overlapping units and abilities. I feel like it allows for customization as far as playstyle goes, without making the different styles so different that you have to worried about getting hard countered by your opponents style. Part of the reason why I feel SC2 has become so boring and stale is because everyone plays the same styles all the time because there is no real overlapping roles among units, so people always go with the comp that is just obviously the best. In SB on the other hand, roles are similar enough that one style is not inherently better than another, and it comes down much more to personal preference for each person.
Some of your examples lead me to believe you haven't look much into the unit strengths though. For example, stalkers definitely do not fill the same role as goons. Stalkers are suppose to be a harass unit, that's why they come with blink, do best vs light units, are cheap, and can be warped in. Goons on the other hand are more tanky, and do best vs heavy and medium units. Stalkers are suppose to fill a role much like mutas, not as part of the main army.
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Mexico2170 Posts
There's one thing that i dont like.
How many combat units does protoss have in the early/mid?
Two, the Zealot and Dragoon. Maybe three if we count the stalker, but as far as i'm concerned it is supposed to be some sort of an harass unit, but lets count it anyway.
Now, how many combat units does Terran, for example, has in early/mid?
Marine, Firebat, Marauder, vulture, tank, and goliath.
We could arguably add the sentinel (although it also is more of an harrass unit) and the reaver, but then we should also add the banshee.
The thing is that most of the early game you will be playing with zealot/goon, no matter what you opponent builds. ¿Mech? Zealot dragoon. ¿Bio? Zealot/goon ¿Bio-mech? Zea/goon.
I Think there is a void in the mid game of Protoss right now, which causes that you always see zealot/dragoon.
It isn't bad tha zea/dragoon is the hearth of the composition of the protoss army, but right now its THE composition, the only composition you can do until late game. Im not saying this is balanced of not, because thats hard to tell this early, but it could be troublesome in the future. Let me explain.
If Zea/goon is the only composition that you can go, so that means it should be good against everything, which goes against the "diversity" that players are looking for and also could be problematic in the future when wanting to balance something, for example, maybe goons result extremely week against bio so you want to buff them, but that would break the interaction they have with mech.
So my suggestion would be to change how the stalker works to be more of a, yes anti light units as it is right now, but more focused in combat than in harass.
And maybe even add 1 unit to the startport and robo. I think that sc2 devs also saw that void and that why they created the immortal and Void Ray. I'm not saying that these should be in the game because no body wants immortals a+clicking their way through mech, but i do feel like there is a void n Tier 2 of the protoss race right now.
Also, is having to build an extra building and research two upgrades for the observer is really necessary? I know in Brood War it was similar but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.
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On January 19 2014 12:11 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
There's one thing that i dont like.
How many combat units does protoss have in the early/mid?
Two, the Zealot and Dragoon. Maybe three if we count the stalker, but as far as i'm concerned it is supposed to be some sort of an harass unit, but lets count it anyway.
Now, how many combat units does Terran, for example, has in early/mid?
Marine, Firebat, Marauder, vulture, tank, and goliath.
We could arguably add the sentinel (although it also is more of an harrass unit) and the reaver, but then we should also add the banshee.
The thing is that most of the early game you will be playing with zealot/goon, no matter what you opponent builds. ¿Mech? Zealot dragoon. ¿Bio? Zealot/goon ¿Bio-mech? Zea/goon.
I Think there is a void in the mid game of Protoss right now, which causes that you always see zealot/dragoon.
It isn't bad tha zea/dragoon is the hearth of the composition of the protoss army, but right now its THE composition, the only composition you can do until late game. Im not saying this is balanced of not, because thats hard to tell this early, but it could be troublesome in the future. Let me explain.
If Zea/goon is the only composition that you can go, so that means it should be good against everything, which goes against the "diversity" that players are looking for and also could be problematic in the future when wanting to balance something, for example, maybe goons result extremely week against bio so you want to buff them, but that would break the interaction they have with mech.
So my suggestion would be to change how the stalker works to be more of a, yes anti light units as it is right now, but more focused in combat than in harass.
And maybe even add 1 unit to the startport and robo. I think that sc2 devs also saw that void and that why they created the immortal and Void Ray. I'm not saying that these should be in the game because no body wants immortals a+clicking their way through mech, but i do feel like there is a void n Tier 2 of the protoss race right now.
Also, is having to build an extra building and research two upgrades for the observer is really necessary? I know in Brood War it was similar but that doesn't mean it has to be that way.
How many combat units does terran have once you go mech route early/mid game? Vultures and tanks, you dont build goliaths in the early game.
Blink stalkers will be used more and more as the units get more explored and builds of course. Mid game protoss has several tech routes, you can go blink stalkers, archons + ht with storm or straight to arbiters, not to mention reavers as well oh and well..air.
Protoss is probably the race with most options, not least. About observers you dont need them faster, if terran rushes mines with vultures and puts mines in your main base and you dont have observer on time, it's your fault letting vultures get into your base, it's not the slow observer tech path 
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I have to agree about liking the overlap in roles and abilities. This prevents the constant chasing of the next 'tech switch counter' so hard. There are still 'optimal' counters, but it isn't an auto-loss just because you chose one starting build vice another.
Additionally, there are certainly enough options right now for Protoss. People just aren't used to the build requirements and mechanics. Even more likely, there just aren't that many cookie cutter builds for people to just go out and copy right now, so everyone is either pure winging it, or for the old-school, trying to mimic a previous Brood War build and branch from there.
Give this current patch/build time to breathe and see what shakes out. Need to be at least 4-6 weeks before iterating or the devs will just end up chasing their own tails trying to balance the thing.
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Why is there a new icon for the grooved spines upgrade? That's the kind of thing I don't see any point in changing.
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One thing that I've been noticing a lot is how skewed gas/mineral incomes are...really strange. Players (been watching a lot of Blade) will take one gas or both gas at BW timings and they will have 900+ gas locked up that they can't use because their mineral income is so low...it really doesn't feel right at all. And it's not like they're not saturating minerals...in almost every replay I've watched this happens.
Perhaps the dumbing down worker triggers (or such, whatever they are) that you guys used are a bit too much? It really, really doesn't feel right and it's pretty irritating.
Players just have 1000 or so gas that they can't even use and no minerals, and this doesn't change until they have four plus mineral saturated bases. Any updates on this?
Blade can't get used to the crazy weird gas income either.
If you don't want to change the mineral mining/dumbness, then maybe lower gas income to 6? Or look at it at least? This is a really consistent theme I've been noticing, at least....
Loving SB though, really good stuff.
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Will TL have this separate Starbow Stream identifier/subsection?
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On January 19 2014 14:13 elmerpogs wrote:
Will TL have this separate Starbow Stream identifier/subsection?
I'd really like this, It's a bit of a pain to search around for streams right now.
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On January 19 2014 14:08 Qwyn wrote:
One thing that I've been noticing a lot is how skewed gas/mineral incomes are...really strange. Players (been watching a lot of Blade) will take one gas or both gas at BW timings and they will have 900+ gas locked up that they can't use because their mineral income is so low...it really doesn't feel right at all. And it's not like they're not saturating minerals...in almost every replay I've watched this happens.
Perhaps the dumbing down worker triggers (or such, whatever they are) that you guys used are a bit too much? It really, really doesn't feel right and it's pretty irritating.
Players just have 1000 or so gas that they can't even use and no minerals, and this doesn't change until they have four plus mineral saturated bases. Any updates on this?
Blade can't get used to the crazy weird gas income either.
If you don't want to change the mineral mining/dumbness, then maybe lower gas income to 6? Or look at it at least? This is a really consistent theme I've been noticing, at least....
Loving SB though, really good stuff.
I've also seen this trend in both streams and games I've played. I don't think it needs a change currently. As long as every race has gas dump units (high templar, lurkers, defiler, vessels) players will figure out a way to use that excess gas. Most people just don't care that much about resource balancing since we are still learning the most basic things about the game.
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On January 19 2014 14:13 elmerpogs wrote:
Will TL have this separate Starbow Stream identifier/subsection?
I really hope it does. I am getting tired of checking everyone's stream individually lol
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Tiny patch for Starbow
Balance:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Null wards damage is reduced from 30 dmg vs everything, to 30 dmg vs medium and armored, 20 dmg vs light. (Still deals x2 dmg vs shields to encourage more use in PvP.)
Sentinels can no longer 2-shot SCVs with those Null wards, which turned out to be broken. Later on will we evaluate if additional adjustements are needed.
This will be the last balance change before the Starbow Beta Razor tournament that starts in ca 12 hours.
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On January 19 2014 14:29 Kabel wrote:Tiny patch for StarbowBalance:+ Show Spoiler +
- Null wards damage is reduced from 30 dmg vs everything, to 30 dmg vs medium and armored, 20 dmg vs light. (Still deals x2 dmg vs shields to encourage more use in PvP.)
Sentinels can no longer 2-shot SCVs with those Null wards, which turned out to be broken. Later on will we evaluate if additional adjustements are needed.
This will be the last balance change before the Starbow Beta Razor tournament that starts in ca 12 hours.
Well, that should satiate all of the Sentinel concerns for a month or so (hopefully).
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I wonder what Blizzard thinks about SB right now, or if they're even paying attention to it. If they can implement a ladder system soon while the buzz is still high, I think it could contend with Sc2 as a competitive game. Sc2 just has way too many design flaws imo, which is not helped by the terrible relationship Blizz's development staff keeps with the community (they act like they don't even care).
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On January 19 2014 14:13 elmerpogs wrote:
Will TL have this separate Starbow Stream identifier/subsection?
I agree it's a pain in the ass to find Starbow streams thus far . .. a TL section would be nice
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On January 19 2014 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
I wonder what Blizzard thinks about SB right now, or if they're even paying attention to it. If they can implement a ladder system soon while the buzz is still high, I think it could contend with Sc2 as a competitive game. Sc2 just has way too many design flaws imo, which is not helped by the terrible relationship Blizz's development staff keeps with the community (they act like they don't even care).
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling Blizzard doesn't pay too much attention. You have to think if they did pay attention, they would have made some serious design changes to SC2 by now. Pretty much every pro has expressed disappointment with the current design of the game... So I don't think Starbow is even on their radar
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On January 19 2014 15:18 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
I wonder what Blizzard thinks about SB right now, or if they're even paying attention to it. If they can implement a ladder system soon while the buzz is still high, I think it could contend with Sc2 as a competitive game. Sc2 just has way too many design flaws imo, which is not helped by the terrible relationship Blizz's development staff keeps with the community (they act like they don't even care). I could be wrong, but I get the feeling Blizzard doesn't pay too much attention. You have to think if they did pay attention, they would have made some serious design changes to SC2 by now. Pretty much every pro has expressed disappointment with the current design of the game... So I don't think Starbow is even on their radar
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224112929
Snippet from Kaivax; Community Manager:
It has been exhilarating to see the explosion of interest and popularity around a custom game in StarCraft II the last few days. It’s actually six games in the StarCraft II Arcade right now, as Starbow has six different maps to play on. And I’ve been playing them. And I keep getting crushed, but that’s okay. I know that many of my co-workers at Blizzard and friends outside the company have been playing on them, too. The discussion around the game is good stuff. It’s good for every part of the community and it’s enjoyable for us. I hope it continues and stays enthusiastic.
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On January 19 2014 15:25 VandenPlause wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 15:18 Beef Noodles wrote:On January 19 2014 14:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
I wonder what Blizzard thinks about SB right now, or if they're even paying attention to it. If they can implement a ladder system soon while the buzz is still high, I think it could contend with Sc2 as a competitive game. Sc2 just has way too many design flaws imo, which is not helped by the terrible relationship Blizz's development staff keeps with the community (they act like they don't even care). I could be wrong, but I get the feeling Blizzard doesn't pay too much attention. You have to think if they did pay attention, they would have made some serious design changes to SC2 by now. Pretty much every pro has expressed disappointment with the current design of the game... So I don't think Starbow is even on their radar http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224112929Snippet from Kaivax; Community Manager: It has been exhilarating to see the explosion of interest and popularity around a custom game in StarCraft II the last few days. It’s actually six games in the StarCraft II Arcade right now, as Starbow has six different maps to play on. And I’ve been playing them. And I keep getting crushed, but that’s okay. I know that many of my co-workers at Blizzard and friends outside the company have been playing on them, too. The discussion around the game is good stuff. It’s good for every part of the community and it’s enjoyable for us. I hope it continues and stays enthusiastic.
Well, then I stand corrected. They are reading forums. They just aren't trying to fix SC2. Interesting
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This tuesday with the parch 2.1 everybody is gonna be able to play SB for free. I think that you need some kind of ladder system to announce SBOW as the new full playable StarCraft. Also some kind of vídeo which shows to the newer people of the game how to play it Andrés what SB is. You need to do as soon as posible. One of the reasons is not losing pleople because not ladder ranking system. Something like IcCup will be just fine. Something that before the game shows your points.
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EPT
