United States2186 Posts
Incognito's Analysis:
Day 1:
Right out the gate on page 6 we have some nice baseline standards for accountability:
On April 30 2012 15:36 EchelonTee wrote:
@Sandroba: Last time you were town in a PM game you broke the hell out of it; if I don't see similar efforts then it's tunnel city.
I love when people make these kinds of statements. It gives you something concrete to hold them accountable to. It doesn't matter that it's a bad idea to tunnel, but now if you don't see EchelonTee following up on this that is a huge hint. Looking through his filter, he doesn't really have any comments on this other than a wishy-washy statement about how he could be mafia but isn't apathetic. Classic mafia overreaction to trying to distance themselves from their team. Even though it isn't conclusive, its a good start. One method would be to push for a sandroba lynch and see if EchelonTee responds like he says he would.
In Day 1: Round A, the early main characters are gonzaw and Mr. Wiggles. Certainly makes them look active and interested to talk about voting plans, but the key for Round A isn't solidifying voting plans. All the centralized planning on votes is ridiculous because there are not enough ways to hold people accountable. If you wanted to go with a voting plan, it would be best done in secret with people who you trust to be town. Dictating everyone's moves is counterproductive and gives you too much information you can't handle.
Next is Palmar's plan, which is absolutely terrible. First, you don't know if the person organizing the votes is town, and second, you really have no way of holding people accountable, even Palmar. It doesn't matter if you can blame Palmar if a townie dies, as there is no real concrete evidence there for you to lynch him. By the time you figure out if he has evil motives or not, its too late. Given that this plan is discussed but not really implemented, it does no good whatsoever to actually listen to it. And if you look at all of Palmar's followup posts, they're all pretty bad. I'm not certain how much was going on in PMs, but from the thread, Palmar seems to project an image that he is in control of everything and that he is being a leader, but what content does he actually produce? Besides providing a (weak) plan, he has one post that throws out a bunch of incoherent reads (none of these reads are really well thought out, they're mostly just instinct/troll reads). Palmar seems aggressive without really doing any real work. What I don't understand is how people thought he was so confirmed town...
Foolishness and Meapak get the idea behind the game. Let round A go on without planning. The ideal situation for town is that there is a roughly even split between the minority and majority. This means that the town doesn't have to spread out all its votes among people they want to save, and have a bigger margin of error in Round B. If the majority is too big, mafia have a greater control over the lynch, as town has to be worried more about saving themselves than isolating someone they want to kill. The idea is that you don't really care if all the high profile townies are immune to lynch or not. If they are that obviously town, they aren't going to die in Round B period. So trying to separate the votes by putting all the strong townies on one side is just a terrible idea. Think about the actually strategy in the Liar Game. People formed groups and split their voters in half. That is the type of strategy you want in this game. If you have half the "pro-town" people on one side of the vote and half on the other, its relatively easy to save them all and then focus on gunning down the mafia. Trying to get them all in the minority is a disaster, as if you fail, you'll be in the majority and it becomes that much harder to save them all. Mafia of course, want that situation. So really the mafia want two things. One, is to have a large majority. And Two, is to be able to push pro-town people into the majority so that the town has to dilute its votes.
Palmar gives an ultimatum: "Not listening to me when I'm town is stupid. You either accuse me of being scum, or you listen the fuck to what I say.", which if you think about it is actually pretty ridiculous. Either he is town so everyone should listen to him, or he is mafia? Besides that this is a blatantly false fact (you can think he is town but that his plan is terrible), this is pretty much a power move. Palmar is basically attemping to funnel people into agreeing with his plan given that it is so early in the game and people are likely to be unsure of their reads. Looking at the rest of his posting, its pretty much aggressive attacks and otherwise apathy. Palmar never really gives any serious reads, and never really gets the town organized on who he wants to lynch. Should be red flags already. Palmar keeps talking about his townness, when he doesn't actually have any at all.
Day 1 just has an atrocious atmosphere. Pretty much you have some townies actually agreeing to Palmar's plan (gasp) and a few people opposing it but otherwise doing nothing. Then a few players going at each others throats because of some flimsy "evidence" from PMland. On one note, gonzaw/Cephiro have a massive spamfest where they fling mud at each other. Will be important for the future, but from any gut instinct reading, I would have just ignored them but considered them both town. Getting into such big heated debates isn't natural for mafia since it grabs so much attention in a thread that is already chaotic. gonzaw does a good job at keeping people talking about nothing while giving the impression that he is pro-town. Very easy to just skip reading his posts after the first few since they are so long.
wherebugsgo makes a good case on sandroba, which is exactly the case EchelonTee should have been pushing (Hint: if ET doesn't jump on to wbg's case something fishy is going on here). Turns out ET comes back to the thread with a massive post on VE, who is the other potential lynch candidate for the day. Fortunately for him, nobody catches this discrepancy, his post is ignored, and he survives until...the end game? This is one of the easiest mafia you will find.
Day 1 Round A had an attrocious atmosphere, and the orgainzation in Round B was pretty bad too. There was no consensus on who to lynch, and VE turned out to be the last minute lynch as Radfield came in at the last minute with enough votes on prplhz to change the lynch from prplhz to VE. Ironically, out of rage, VE actually killed himself because of his 5 votes for sandroba. If he didn't do that, sandroba would have died instead of VE and the game would have turned out a lot differently. Note that this isn't the only time sandroba is going to be saved by an enraged townie - Cephiro makes the same mistake announcing 5 votes for sandroba on day 5, which further helped the Harimoto cult and didn't force them to make a decision on whether to save sandroba or not.
VE's death also shows how you shouldn't be playing town. VE provoked wbg all game, but wasn't even wbg's prime target. I think it would be likely that sandroba would have been lynched day 1 if it weren't for VE's insistence that wbg was mafia, which pretty much turned the whole town against him. It didn't take much manipulation from the mafia to get him lynched instead of sandroba at this point. If you're going to antagonize people, you have to do it with a purpose. Just repeatedly saying "you're scum bro" isn't going to get you anywhere, even if he does turn out to be mafia. Even though VE eventually gives a reason why he thinks wbg is mafia, its hard to actually take his posts seriously as a whole. Credibility is important. You can't expect to go around flinging mud at people and not being held accountable for it.
Foolishness decides to attack chaoser day 1, but ends up giving him 3 votes in Round B...but he gets away with it. Good discussion point for mafia of either side, since at this point nobody seems to really know whats going on anyway. Combined with some heat on Foolishness Day 2 for some subpar posting, you could have really gotten the town into some chaotic discussion. But by this point in the game, most of the mafia except gonzaw are being complacent about the game.
Palmar's in thread posting has been atrocious and people are just letting him ride off of his flasy Day 1 King campaign. Besides the fact that sandroba's play is way different from his town play (which certainly is a big hint), his posts have no content or coherent thought behind them. He may be busy because of real life, but that doesn't excuse posts like this. And as I've said before, EchelonTee should be easily deduced from his bizzare connection with sandroba, as well as the fact that he manages to get everyone to ignore him. Common theme throughout the game, as literally nobody mentions EchelonTee either positively or negatively (at least in thread. He seems to have formed some circle with Meapak and gonzaw, but that turns out to hurt gonzaw eventually)
BC flinging mud everywhere while not producing any meaningful content should also be a red flag given that he never really pushes in any meaningful direction. Decent lynch on Day 2 but definitely not as obvious as someone like sandroba.
Ace - everyone talks as if he isn't doing anything, when it should be clear that he actually does hold opinions. In general, people are stuck too much in the moment and don't catch when he actually does make a contribution. Just because he looks like he has a lot of "I dont care" posts doesn't mean he should be ignored. Interestingly nobody does what they should be doing and analyze what exactly Ace is trying doing with his posts.
Day 2:
Round A was way too disorganized, with no coherent discussion or vote coordination. Except for the Foolishness group. Foolishness had a plan to have everyone in his group (Foolishness/gonzaw/ET/Katina/wbg) all vote one way so that if they ended up in the minority, they could control the lynch, and if they ended up in the majority, they could circle vote each other. Unfortunately this plan goes against the idea that town wants the minority voting round to be as close as possible. Even if you could find a group of townies to coordinate votes, you ideally want to be splitting votes so that you can ensure that you will always have extra votes to control the lynch. Yes, it means you will always end up with people in the majority, but since that's only half of you, you only have to worry about saving half your group, and can use the other votes to influence the lynch.
Day 3:
After BC's lynch and Foolishness's death, the thread goes downhill. Any hope of town organization is completely lost, as everyone at this point is following Palmar and gonzaw, who have pretty much taken control over the thread. From this point, the only active townies are ones who are under fire by gonzaw and Palmar, and the thread just becomes a spam fest of people trying to defend themselves against a tunneling attacker in front of a non-existent jury. Nobody is really trying to figure anything out, and the game is going as well as the mafia could possibly hope. prplhz and syllogism are basically in Palmar's back pocket, leaving only a handful of people who could possibly oppose their influence. Unfortunately, the game has already turned into a situation where its accusers vs. victims, with no 3rd party observer feedback. The victims aren't even trying to find out the truth for themselves. Of course the result will be obvious - townies will die as more people come under the seductive influence of the mafia. If anyone looks at Palmar's thread posting as a whole, its pretty obvious that he is mafia, but due to the fact that everyone is just paying attention to what is immediately in front of them, any attempts to discredit or attack Palmar in any way are just yelled at until they are silent.
The interesting thing about this lynch is that although the mafia had complete control over the thread, they made a mistake by attacking too many people at once. Fortunately for them however, the victims didn't take advantage of this fact. Up until the end of the day, there were 3 people who were all potential lynch candidates: Meapak, chaoser, and Sheth. Although they were all discredited because of the mafia's thread dominance, they could have easily played the backstabbing politician to make things turn out a bit uglier. Originally they all had 0 votes, a fact that could have been used as negotiating leverage. As it would be seriously disasterous for the town if 3 townies died that day, they could have easily made deals with each other to save themselves. For example, chaoser goes to Meapak and negotiates to trade votes in order to make Sheth take the fall, etc. Yet apparently nobody goes for this scheme.
Interestingly enough, Cephiro decides to give all his votes to chaoser, Sheth saves Meapak, and gonzaw splits between chaoser and Meapak. This ninja move by gonzaw was explained immediately following the Night post (it probably would have come before it given the timing), and would have been critical in catching gonzaw later in the game, as the votes eventually add up (surprisingly nobody ever went through and put together a list of all the previous voting rounds though...). gonzaw also makes a mistake by accusing Cephiro of trying to "determine the lynch by his own" when he himself was also instrumental in saving chaoser (it works both ways, not just one, but gonzaw wants to deflect the blame off of his own suspicious actions).
Cephiro is surely doomed at this point, but it is mostly his own fault. Ever since the beginning of the game where gonzaw pushed him for no real reasons, Cephiro has been on the back foot, and everyone has been leaning mafia on him. Cephiro's posts focus too much on himself, and given the short term nature of most people's thinking, the first thing hanging in their minds is how much Cephrio sticks out in the thread as a useless scummy poster.
chaoser does a good job picking on ET due to his changing stance on sandroba, which is spot on (see my first comment in this post). However, due to the terrible thread atmosphere and complacent townies, it is unfortunately overlooked.
As an interesting Day 3 development, the mafia were able to find each other and coordinate against the town, hence two kills on wbg and syllogism. With sandroba, syllogism, and perhaps Palmar already outed in the thread, they really needed to get the town numbers down given that the mafia only had 3 KP each in this whole game.
Day 4:
Not too much interesting goes on here, Wiggles nails Palmar as mafia with a pretty rational post (why does everyone think he is mafia? Especially after Palmar flips red the next day?). Unfortunately, due to gonzaw and slOosh covering for Palmar and prplhz sheepishly voting him, chaoser dies while Palmar gets to live another day.
Day 5:
By this point, gonzaw is in complete control of the game, and Meapak is in his back pocket.
As a bonus, everyone should read this thread. Its absolutely hilarious.
Unfortunately he couldn't write more, as he is out of town at the moment and had to rush this as is.
Ver's Analysis:
I apologize for the rather chaotic nature of this as I wrote it in certain areas over a long period. It is not comprehensive; I just try to cover some important points
Day 1:
I liked both Palmar's plan and the general reaction to it by many players. I've noticed that a lot of players have taken in knowledge from guides or postgame analysis and incorporating them as core pillars of their play. This is great! However, sometimes they end up taking heuristics (shortcuts, but not certainties, to be weighed in with the rest of their behavior) for an almost certainty (such as a mafia doesn't want to voluntarily place themselves in the spotlight). It is true that mafia don't want to do that, but it doesn't mean they won't ever do it. It is just much rarer, but while you can use it as a way to clear someone over a long period mixed in with other factors, you cannot simply write off someone as town for doing such a thing, especially in the short run. It is simply one factor among many.
Palmar's plan, to put himself in the spotlight and make him king and arbiter, played on this tendency quite effectively and he did it in a manner which is similar to his attitude as town. Good job! Naturally the plan was quite problematic and I was also pleased to see many people pointing this out and not getting fooled. Obviously if you can't determine Palmar's identity or motives, why give him such power, especially in day 1? Furthermore, while I think Ace takes it too far, it is difficult to be certain about things on day 1.
+ Show Spoiler [More indepth reasoning] +
With mafia reads you don't have to be 100%, because unless they slip up that's generally difficult to achieve. Settling for 90-95% likelihood as mafia is generally more than enough. There will be some mislynches, but on the whole, it's acceptable. However, for townie reads, you have to be virtually 100% on it, which is very tough for day 1. False positives (calling a townie 'mafia') are troublesome but inevitable, while False negatives (calling mafia 'confirmed town') really wreck your chances. Furthermore, in general figuring out mafia is much more beneficial than figuring out townies, because for the latter to be useful you have to be almost exactly right and it's not even as important for town objectives because it is not direct (i,e removing a perosn from a suspect list, instead of simply killing one guy).
To be 100% on townies is certainly possible within 24 hours, but very difficult and won't happen with more than a few people who are especially obvious in general. To give you an example of my focus in practice, when I was coaching in mafia L at the end of night 1 I knew 3 mafia but only 2 townies - granted it was a 50 player game, but upon reflection it seems rather typical. It's also easier to find someone mafia from one post (this happens a surprising amount actually) than it is to confirm someone as town for one post. Mafia can often fake a town act initially but as the game develops an incongruency will always occur. Oftentimes the things that do confirm someone as town can't be used as proof towards convincing others anyways because they are so WIFOM or solely based on intuition. It's also much easier to find some BS reason to finger someone as mafia that you nailed on intuition (this happened a lot in L) than doing the same for a townie. The focus of finding mafia vs town can be enlargened with extra effort, but the point is, unless you can be 100% which is so difficult early on, it's pointless, so why bother too much?
My point is, trying to micromanage the minority based on town reads on the 24 hours of day 1 is simply absurd even if being done by a confirmed innocent, let alone a player of unknown alignment. This is because a) trying to force a minority lets mafia, who alone have knowledge, manipulate this to their advantage, and b) even if someone is town and has good sense and throws in say 8 people in the minority, it's quite likely mafia will be in there and then the town runs the risk of people thinking those group=confirmed town or some other silly idea. Feasible, but high risk, low reward.
Gonzaw did a good job clogging up the thread with his enormous spam and disrupting the ability for the town to start piecing things together. In particular, the argument with Cephiro hurt the town atmosphere and made Cephiro come off worse even though his position was more logical. I think that in general as town, or probably mafia too, you don't want to bother responding too much to accusations unless a) it's really gaining momentum with the town at large b) they are blatantly misrepresenting you (a mafia motive generally). However, it's more effective to simply point out their errors once instead of getting into a shouting match (trying to convince the person you are accusing to admit their guilt is usually a lost cause). In Cephiro's situation, it probably would've been better to just ignore Gonzaw, because the latter had nothing on the former and arguing about it only worsened the town atmosphere and focus. If Cephiro just ignores him with something like 'I'm not responding to someone that makes out something that isn't there' it's much harder for Gonzaw to keep posting his spam, which would achieve Cephiro's goal more quickly.
Mafia members inherently don't want to keep themselves in the spotlight. That doesn't mean they won't put themselves in the spotlight if they deem it the proper move. Palmar doing what he did day 1 does not mean anything. It's something you have to look at over a several day period. Contrast Cephiro and Palmar: both voluntarily put themselves out in the spotlight (in different ways, but same effect). However, Palmar's behavior radically changed over the course of the game. He became less and less involved,shrinking away from the attention of the town and happy to remain out of sight and mind. Cephiro, on the other hand, kept himself in the town's focus the entire game, perhaps even more so later on than initially. That's as good of a contrast between town and mafia behavior as you'll get. The extreme degree of deliberate suspicion of Cephiro is a good example of the paradox of mafia suspicion: it should have told everyone that he was likely innocent (the same cannot be said for Sandro though because he deliberately pulled himself out of the game while Cephiro kept involving himself).
2nd Phase-
A 10-8 split was the best town could've hoped for, and ironically, a pretty logical conclusion to Palmar's plan. Day 1 is the most dangerous day for the town: in balancing the game we felt a 2-3 townie death on day 1 was rather likely.
Naturally, as was pointed out by many players, the larger the minority, the better position the town is in. I really felt mafia got too complacent by town being chaotic and didn't try to fuel a larger minority/majority split. This could have been accomplished in several ways:
1) Purposely tricking people into voting a certain way. For example, what if they contacted people saying that they along with several others were going to vote No, and that the other person should vote yes. Then whoever is in the minority votes to save the other. If you do this to quite a few people, some will bite, some won't, but you have better odds. And frankly, townies have reason to do this too, considering on day 1 you have a very real chance of dying.
2) Casting doubt on whether Palmar's plan would actually be followed and suggesting that everyone was paying it lip service while voting against it (or for it, if you want to take the opposite angle). Essentially, trick people into misjudging the general voting sentiment into creating a much smaller minority.
A lot of people felt Gonzaw was innocent all game. While his posts did a good job of painting himself as a try-hard townie, he did have holes and inconsistencies if you looked closely (I bet nobody did). For example, Gonzaw actually did out himself and Chaoser indirectly by treating chaoser differently in his post than anyone else.On four other people he throws around a lot of doubt and suspicion on them. Then suddenly when addressing chaoser he switches to more of a pleading town, as if trying to 'give him a chance.' Why? Gee I wonder...Those contradictions exist! Look for them!
Judging from other's posts, Sheth had gonzaw figured out as mafia and cephiro town. However, this was apparently only advanced in pm's (which was then made public anyway). Why not push this in the thread too much earlier? I feel that if Sheth had just made a proper case, linking together Gonzaw quotes from his games as mafia/town and this game, he could've not only gotten him lynched early (once under more scrutiny, it would've been harder for Gonzaw to act as he did for so long. That type of style is much harder if you are under a lot of constant pressure), but also relieved suspicion on himself.
The problem with everyone being so open about their votes is that there is no uncertainty for mafia. If you look at the day 1 mafia votes Sandroba had no mafia voting for him, Chaoser had 1 mafia (on his team) vote for him (BC), and ET had 2 votes from his team on him (1 Palmar, 1 Sandroba). This is a game based around the vote mechanics: thus, if the town wants to gain information, it has to be through analyzing vote lists. On day 1 when it's tough to gain reliable information AND convince everyone of it, it's rather tricky to just get a mafia lynched.
If VE never blabbed about giving his votes to Sandro, then the harimoto group would've had an extremely difficult decision to make. Do they give votes to Sandro? Do they fabricate pm conversations which make him appear legit? Do they try to set up another counter target who nobody can vote? Letting him die on day 1 is almost not an option, so they have to stick their necks out. Instead VE dies, saves Sandro, and mafia don't reveal themselves. Oops.
Another note: 11 players claimed to Syllo/Palmar day 1. ????????
Obviously everyone probably didn't feel much threat in doing so because everyone was vanilla, but still! What had they done to demonstrate their innocence or worthiness of having such information? This gave the mafia crucial information, because they (along with syllo and wbg I believe), were able to deduce that there were few to no blue roles. That meant that they could fire with impunity and not fear vigilante shots, while town gained little with the knowledge. People need to be more reserved claiming: it often does a lot more harm then good. Don't play your trump card so soon.
The Ace kill was quite good, even though some people seemed mystified by it. He wasn't going to troll forever (maybe), but he actually was making a lot of sense. He wasn't finding mafia, but he was pointing out bad approaches and leading people on the right track in that regard. It's always important to nip such influences early, before they can bear fruit. That's also why killing Foolishness the next night was also an excellent move.
Biggest problem of days 2/3 is that Palmar is getting out of everything scot free. What has he done to help the town? Almost nothing! But almost nobody is even looking at him or even attempting to judge what he has been doing. He is already out of their field of vision.
Of course this is not a knock on Palmar; to the contrary, it's a praise to his maneuvering to get himself in such a position. Furthermore, not only does he coast by, he also manages to paint those who speak out against him as mafia AND gets others to go along with it. Playing as mafia is all about subtlety; being too direct as mafia tends to lead towards others to look back at you eventually. The other mafia team did not see Palmar as a huge threat, and he was completely off most townies radars. The few people who did push him were either squelched by counteraccusations (Chaoser, BC, Katina, Cephiro) or persuaded to doubt themselves or not push as hard (Foolishness). THAT, is how you play mafia. Get others to do your work for you, so when the inevitable backlash comes, they get blamed and you run off scot free because there is no obvious link. Palmar's only flaw is that he didn't keep up the act for long and once Syllo/WBG died, he was right out in the open again.
Another problem I saw a lot was people not putting enough effort into pushing suspicions:
For example, Chaoser had a very good find with ET's incongruence on Sandroba: Instant lynch, bam. Yet he didn't press it at all!? And nobody else seemed to notice it either. If he's afraid of the Harimoto backlash from such pressure, he can easily have others present it to the thread while pushing it privately. That way, he wouldn't seem so dangerous to the Harimoto's, while those with influence still know that he did it and thus is more worthwhile for the town.
Both days mafia votes were very poor: they let too many townies live. In such a format, it's not usually worth making the town suspicious over someone because there's no guarantee that the town can even kill them for awhile. Instead, it's just better to let townies drop dead, instead of giving them votes like BC and others did when they died.
It also looks like I need to cover meta because as usual it is misconstrued due to misuse.
Proper use of 'meta' (ugh what an ugly term) would show that Ace and Sheth were both town and Gonzaw mafia, among other things. However, meta is easily misused, which leads to it getting a really bad (and undeserved) rap.
When Ace is mafia (just look at Wheel of Fortune), he is much more manipulative and subtle. This game he was anything but, just simple and direct. He was inviting attention on himself, not posting in such a way to deflect it away. That makes him town.
Similarly, when Sheth is mafia his history shows he takes a more active measure in misleading people. This game he was, like Ace, more simple and direct. It's when someone is NOT immediately suspicious that you should be wary of them. Mafia is a game of paradoxes: the more innocent someone appears at first glance, not in a 'hes so townie' way but 'hes probably not mafia,' that's a good indication they are mafia. Similarly, in most cases someone who appears so unbelievably guilty yet isn't giving up is almost always going to be a townie.
Sheth posted good reasons for Gonzaw being mafia due to past game influence (his demeanor and tone). Yet he was ignored all too easily, because he was already ostracized.
Some other quick notes:
-In double mafia games, listen to people you think are mafia. They still want to kill the other family and thus have useful information to give. This also doubles as being able to make use of townies who are under suspicion. Too many people this game contributed good ideas but were ignored because they were seen as guilty (Cephiro, Sheth, Katina, and Chaoser being prime examples).
-Too much effort was spent posting general suspicions instead of concrete cases. Concrete analysis is harder to fake because it requires greater accuracy and it promotes more useful discussion. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing, naturally, but in this case there was far too little of it. Instead, most lynches seemed to be decided upon with little more than "Player X is suspicious for reasons X or Y,' which a) makes it easy for mafia to blend in and b) makes it harder to actually find mafia because discussion is worse and the reasoning is not so clear. For example, had Katina actually bothered to make a full analysis post on Palmar or Gonzaw, she could have totally reversed the town's fortunes. Simple statements alone are usually not enough unless it is really blatant like with Sandroba.
-Mafia players should take risks. This game showed that they really can pay off. Those who took risks succeeded, while those who tried to play it safe (or didn't try at all *cough* ) got burned early.
The one exception to this was Cephiro saving Sandro. This was bad because a) he had no concrete reasoning for Sandro being Yokoya, just logical assumptions possibly stemming from an idea placed by Palmar or ET earlier on (which weren't true due to mafia miscommunications unfortunately) b) had no idea of the mafia KP, which was clearly not a normal 1 kp per night syndrome. In general, it's simply not worth it to leave mafia alive if you have hte chance to kill them. If you can kill a player of a strong family, or a player of the weak family, then kill the strong family member, but if you can kill 1 mafia or none at all, just chop his head off and save yourself the trouble. Low reward, high risk.
-In this vein, the mafia partial alliance was an excellent risk undertaken. For those who don't know, Chaoser contacted Sandroba on day 3 I believe in a subtle way. Hopefully he'll post the pm's, but basically he speculated that the mafia might have 3 kp to spend. If Sandro was somehow a townie, Chaoser's statement could simply be taken as speculation. It would only be seen as an alliance to a member of the other mafia team; a very clever move, and exactly how it should be approached! I remember back in PYP Interesting many mafia members felt it too hard to forge alliances with other teams: this proved an excellent way to do so. The tiny bit of information of mafia possessing 3 kp overall was the one advantage we gave the mafia, and I was very happy to see it actually being used properly for once.
It was simply a partial alliance, as in only one person would be known of each mafia team. They would simply use their kp at the right moment to eviscerate the town leadership while keeping them unawares. It was properly timed, for Palmar was at last under suspicion by the members of his inner circle, and they were suddenly removed before they could really take action. It prevented any accidental stacking of kp (worst possible scenario for mafia) and created a power vacuum in the center of the town at a ripe moment. This made it possible for both sides to infiltrate Gonzaw and ET into Meapak's new group, which put the game in full control of the mafia. The progression of the game in the later stages could really be traced back to this move. Kudos!
-Read what Incog said on ET vacillating with Sandroba. In an ideal world, your intuition should be good enough that you can just briefly glance at his filter and *know* that both are mafia. Go back and reread it now.
-I was also very happy to see the plan to lull everyone into a false sense of security with a Sandro lynch and instead try for a triple lynch which the mafia couldn't react to. It nearly failed due to it being spread to ET and wasn't fully successful because Sandro accidentally made illegal votes. However, it still netted Palmar dead very suddenly, with ET not able to save him, and got rid of the troublesome prplhz, who clearly was not playing up to his potential. Plans like this are really interesting and a great use of your time. More people could do with spending time devoted to creating plans. Even if they don't always work properly, they make you a much more dangerous and multidimensional player to contend with.
-Lastly, I hope this game will be a lesson in cockiness. People clearly trusted too easily and never really reread the game because they were too confident in their ability to judge the situation. Three mafia members, or half the total, were very well spoken of for the majority of the game. That's fine for a few days, but for how long they lasted, it was clear that people were simply not rereading, and instead just crossing them off their lists mentally. Being confident is fine, but you need to be able to double check yourself when things aren't going according to plan. That means rereading the game and your pm's. If the game is not clearly going in favor of the town, you probably are making some mistakes, and you should reevaluate exactly why you trust or suspect certain people. Oftentimes you may find that you had the flimsiest reasons for doing so in the beginning and they eventually stuck.
Overall, the game was filled with some poor plays, some decency, and some really high level moves (Also, boy am I glad we took Gonzaw as the lone player not invited, same with ET in jubjub ^_^). Thanks everyone for making it a fun game to observe!
Please give all feedback. I know it was long and not as active at certain points. If you have ideas on how to improve that, please share. We hope to run more of these kinds of games in the future.
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My PMs this game:
+ Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A Foolishness] +Original Message from Foolishness myself, sandroba, wherebugsgo, syllogism, Radfield, Meapak, chaoser, and Wiggles were all in the game. There were a handful of other well known players in the game as well. It wasn't embarrassing for them. As I said I've done it before. Since it was planned out, I inserted myself into a position so that the other mafia families thought I was mafia. From their perspective it made total sense that I was a head of a family. Since the day is nearing half over we should concentrate on our mafia reads and leave the planning for night time. I really want to make sure we don't end up with 5 people dead at the end of day 1. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Lol really? Were they experienced players or not? lol how embarrassing for them Also okay, I'm voting NO then. Actually I'm not that suspicious of VE. He did the same "overconfident guy that thought he found a scumslip on D1" thing on LIII against me (both of us were town). I can see him doing that as town. Plus he seems overconfident and shit, unlike his scum play in LI. I am suspicious of wbg, and of Cephiro and chaoser (check my post) I'm kind of suspicious to the players that behemently oppose plans. Like BC, chaoser, Cephiro, Meapak, and some other people. As in, the people that behemently oppose other plans (specially the ones that are actually good), but don't do anything else and just complain and shit. I didn't read BC's or Meapak's filter though, but I'm kind of lazy to manually search for their posts so I'll wait until we are given a filter list Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: Yeah no problem. I'll try to keep things that are just relevant to you in the PMs and anything else in the thread. There are issues with round A when there are fewer people alive. I'm not saying we out 6 scum instantly (however badass it would be of us), I'm saying we try to control the voting as best we can by coordinating the mafia so that we get as many of the mafia in the majority as possible. About the whole "pretending to be mafia" thing, I guarantee you that if done right the scum will believe me. I've done it before. You can ask wherebugsgo about it because he was on my fake mafia team in PYP:Interesting. Before I died I had infiltrated one of the mafia teams and they thought I was the leader of one of the other factions (there were 3 mafia factions that game). I managed to get enough information out of them to narrow down the possible members of their team. Yes, let me restate that this might not work, or that it might not even be needed (as you said town might end up dominating the game anyways). I'm just accounting for possibilities and planning for the long term. If we're both alive at the time and in a position where it might be necessary then we should take action. Okay, I shall vote NO as well then. Tomorrow we should split our votes if we're both alive. Since we're already at this point in our conversation, I don't see the need to be hiding anything from each other. So if you ever have anything to ask me (that can't be asked in thread of course) just feel free. Even if we don't decide to do anything like contact the other mafia teams we should still be open about any plans we have. And as I said we should keep the idea of cycling in mind as the game goes on. I'm suspicious of VE, and a little bit of wherebugsgo. If BC and sandroba continue to be inactive then they are probably mafia. I'm certain that Katina, Mr. Wiggles, EchelonTee, and Ace are all town. Original Message From gonzaw: Yes, but just knowing who scum is won't give them any info about it. Imagine you use the voting cycle patterns and find both scum teams (which is what you said we would do with this plan). What do you do next? Don't say a thing. Let Round A happen, and if any of those scum end up in the majority, then make cases against them and get them lynched. The next day do the same thing, let Round A happen, and if any of those scum you found are in the majority make cases against them. You don't need to make a gigantic post in the thread and out all 6 scum, in that case you are correct we can't get all of them instantly. Here's the thing about the "pretending to be mafia": ...no sane scum will believe you. What scum will believe that the other scum team is trying to contact them? Scum teams are of opposite factions and win independently. Unless town is coasting to a certain victory, scum won't negotiate with each other at all, specially by claiming to each other. What happens if town is indeed coasting to a certain victory? Then why do we need this gambit after all? We will certainly win without it. Also, we don't know what scum are doing. Maybe like I said scum already found each other (maybe because of a DT role, or just sheer analysis), and they will instantly see through your lie when you claim to them. There aren't noobs in this game, I assume each scum team will have someone competent enough in them so they will notice. About the votes: I was planning on following Palmar's strategy. Yes, you may say it's because he "pardoned" me, but I agree that we need that system and put the towniest people in the minority, and we can't do that if you and me go behind their backs and vote differently. We will never be able to implement anything at all if that happens, so I'd prefer if you and me vote the same NO. Even if we come up in the majority, we can get some votes on us so it's no problem. Actually, I think most scum (from both sides) will vote NO as well. Like, 2 scum from Team 1 vote NO, and 2 scum from Team 2 vote NO as well. Adding that to the 5 of us pardoned (if all 5 of us are town), plus some stubborn townies that will vote NO, it will be very likely the NO will be in the majority. However, it's likely scum PLUS the 5 of us will be in the majority. In this case, we can vote for each other and those townies that voted NO, and let the scum that voted NO die. Even in that case I think it's fine, but most of all I want some cooperation and to follow some kind of plan. Also, what do you think about my "People vote who they want in the majority on Round A" plan? Post it in the thread if you don't mind. If you have any questions about my reads or thoughts about players, etc, don't hesitate to ask me, but please do it in the thread. I hate to have 10 different players ask me the same thing via PMs and having to waste time responding to each of them, instead of just posting it once in the thread. (oh yeah sorry for the wall of text ) Original Message From Foolishness: There are two stages to this game. Even if I could tell you for sure that these people are mafia, we still need to ensure that we get them in the majority otherwise we cannot kill them. That's where we fake to be one of the mafia teams. Make each of the mafia teams think that we are the other team. We try to organize getting as many members in the minority as possible, except we'll do it in a way to rig it so that the mafia are in the majority instead. As I said it's risky and has low success rate cause you and I are both unlikely to survive that long (plus if we get a third to help us). Yes we will have to hope that neither of us is mafia (I don't think you are that's why I reached out to you). Also, I don't find it likely the mafia will actually think up this plan since they will have their own concerns to worry about. It's also questionable whether any of the mafia families will actually try to reach out to the other family or not. But as you said, for now we should just scumhunt and not worry about the round A results (which is what I've been saying in the thread). The results from round A will be random that I'm sure we can hit a scum if we just do enough analysis. When there are less people alive though then things get tricky, which is why I think we should find some way to work together on this. At the very least, we should keep in mind that idea about cycling over the course of the game. I really think there is potential to analyze the voting patterns and get a lot of information out of them. Anyways, if you want to move somewhat forward with this idea, you can tell me what you are voting and I will vote the opposite of you. Original Message From gonzaw: Hmm, this seems kind of weird and I seem to find quite a few flaws in it Here: As long as the game goes on long enough (yes I realize that's a big what-if) it should be easy to piece together the information to find a mafia family Just with this, it seems that you alone can figure out the 2 scum teams by D3-D4, without the need of 2 other players. What if I'm scum, or the other player you bring in is scum? Surely scum will change their tactics so you don't find them, and you won't be able to correctly identify those teams By pretending to be a mafia family, we can reach out to both families and attempt to work together with them and coordinate the votes for round A Why would you do this? If you find both mafia families...you out them in the thread and we let town know who they are. If you fear those scum may tamper the Round A votes, then you don't mention it until it's Round B and you out them at that point. Why would you negotiate with scum? So you can trick them into being in Round B at the same time or something? If that's your plan, then what makes you think they won't see right through it? What if scum figure out who the other scumteam is (maybe by using the same method you described), and then they see some other random guy telling them "Hey lol we are the other scum team!". I like what you said about the voting patterns though, but I think just not taking them into account, and instead scumhunt and having scum be in the majority and townies in the minority will be good for now. You seem to concur with this as well from what I've read in the thread. Anyways, I kind of agree with Palmars plan, but I don't like that the power rests only on him, even if he's town. I think I came up with something better, so comment on it if possible. Original Message From Foolishness: I'd be fine with your plan; don't know how you plan to get everyone else to go along with it. At least it's better than what Palmar is doing (even though he is probably town). You got 3 people in a mafia family: X, Y, and Z. How do you collectively vote during round A? Having all three of your members vote the same on the question is clearly a bad idea as it only strengthens your chance of being in the majority. So what do you do instead? Split it up 2 and 1. Now you can go about this split in two ways. Have the same 2 people always vote together, or cycle through the possibilities. I don't find it likely that a team will have 2 people always vote together so I think the cycling is what will happen. Thus we can expect the following to occur Day 1: X and Y vote yes Z vote no Day 2: X and Z vote yes Y vote no Day 3: Y and Z vote yes X vote no ... As long as the game goes on long enough (yes I realize that's a big what-if) it should be easy to piece together the information to find a mafia family. Keep in mind both families will be doing this. What does this mean straight up? If 2 people are always voting together you can be relatively sure they are not on the same mafia family. That is a fact I think is exploitable for the town. What do I want to accomplish? I want us two to get a third person we think is town and enact this plan ourselves. That is, we pretend to be a mafia family and agree to vote like one. Once day 3 is half over, I think we should have enough to get an idea of who is mafia and what the families look like. By pretending to be a mafia family, we can reach out to both families and attempt to work together with them and coordinate the votes for round A. I can do all the dirty work and keep you and our third member safe when it comes to this (if that makes you feel any better about the plan). As I said there are some obvious concerns here, as this requires us to all survive to day 3 (and maybe day 4), but I think there is potential. If you can get a bunch of mafia into the majority you can kill them all. In reality the town only needs one day to win. All we have to do is coordinate our votes. If it makes you feel any better you can choose which answer you want to vote for yourself and me. Original Message From gonzaw: So what do you actually think about my plan? (post it in the thread if you don't mind, I hate discussing things in PMsthat can easily be said in the thread ) I think my plan is kind of solid for the moment, as long as every townie complies. If only scum choose not to follow it then we catch them easily. If you have anything better then I'm all ears. But are you sure it won't be better to post it in the thread? I guess you sent this to other players as well (or you plan to send), so what will you accomplish with having control over a small group of players? That won't let you control what other players vote, so you can't really decide who is in the minority/majority. Also, I read the manga, so don't you go try that "We have a group of N people, and N/2 vote YES and N/2 vote NO" and try and form different groups >_> (although I guess it's a given everybody knows the strategies in them ) Original Message From Foolishness:
This is being written to you because I was intrigued by one of your posts in the thread.
You say you want to create some sort of plan for the Minority Voting. You know as well as I do (even if you don't want to admit it) that round A is going to be a clusterfuck of votes.
In fact, it will be a clusterfuck at least the first time and probably tomorrow as well. It will take some hard planning to actually get anything accomplished by organizing the round A votes.
I have a plan though. It is by no means beautiful. In fact it is incredibly risky and is long-term, with the goal being to take control day 3 or day 4 of the votes. Obviously I cannot do this on my own. Thus I am reaching out to you in the hopes we can get something accomplished together.
If you are interested, you know how to reach me.
+ Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A ET] +Original message by EchelonTee Glad you're back, I was about to call you out xp I'll continue this in thread. It's taking me a while maintaining PM contacts while combing the thread itself. I'll post some thoughts but I think Sheth is scum; I don't want to post a full case on him though; I prefer to prod scum until it becomes more and more obvious that they are scummy. In large contrast to your style Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee:
Do you still think Cephiro is scum? I felt that he was scummy in some ways and wouldn't mind if he died, but people's opinions are mixed.
More so, I'm suspicious about Sheth, but I don't know his play style, which is why I am PMing you. I find it weird that he was like "4 votes on cephiro kk" without previously ever mentioning cephiro. Does Sheth usually do things without explaining them, or is he being overly lurky? Yes, I still think Cephiro is scum (read my new post). He's trolling people, acting like he's some master mafia liar or something, not being transparent, not giving reasoning or reads, etc. I don't see why he would do that as town. I still don't know why people ignore him either. Like, nobody posts thoughts about him or anything, or just say "I'll vote Cephiro" without even addressing the case I made or the whole discussion that took place. I don't know about Sheth either, I think this is the first time I've played with him since Newbie II (my first game). I've observed games and he acts like this though, is overly lurky, kind of wishy-washy, etc; your typical "anti-town townie". I don't know why the fuck he'd give Cephiro 4 votes though, and again just saying he thinks he's town because of "meta".....considering it's more likely he'd think he's scum because of meta and not the other way round. Hide nested quote -
Original Message From EchelonTee:
also, what do you think of Sandroba? He's on the chopping block; I haven't seen any real cases on him yet though.
lol@the subject line, liar xp Yeah read my new post It would be great if you posted your opinion on Ceph/Sheth/etc in the thread too. Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, I won't ignore them. But most people here like play 90% of the game in PMs. They talk to EVERYBODY and spend hours and hours conversing and shit. That's very hard to follow and I don't like it at all, specially since most of the discussion done in PMs can be easily done in the thread for everyone to see (for instance asking for reads or thoughts, etc). PMs have only 1 advantage, which is that they are private. So they should only be used when something private should be discussed. If something important like that comes up, then yeah I'll use them, but in the meantime I'll stick to the thread. Also lol when I first looked at the PM, I thought you were calling me a liar and I was like "wtf?" Original Message From EchelonTee:
hi
I also hate PM games, but they're a pretty strong town tool. I don't recommend you ignore them ^^
+ Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A (and more I think) Cephiro] +Original Message by Cephiro You're too stubborn for your own good, accept the fact that you can be wrong. I'll give you this one time short and simple: YOU DO NOT KNOW ME All your bullshit is based on that you have out-metagamed me, you think you know how I play as town when all you have seen is ONE SINGLE PITIFUL FORUM GAME. Do me a favour and stop talking to and/or about me until you learn that you can't base your thoughts on meta purely. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: How the hell are they "wrong reasons"? Not contributing, adding fuel to the fire by tunneling me, avoiding giving reads and playing completely different as you do when town are "wrong reasons"'. I can't also believe that you think I'm either "a very very very bad town or scum". Again, exactly the same as the Toad incident. He just said "You are tunneling me so much you have to be scum" and that's it, 0 reasoning. If you think I'm scum because of some reasons, then post them, but honestly saying "You are so bad that you have to be scum" are even "worse" reasons than the ones I have. And no, I don't think you would act like this as town. I've seen my share of "vet" players just troll like this around as scum and you are acting just like it apparently. You are not Bill Murray, you are not Kenpachi, you are not Chezinu. Why? Because you didn't do this in previous games you've played I have to say that you are a little bit too aggressive, and I thought that would make you seem townie at first, but all these recent bullshit completely override that. I think you are playing just like Toad in LI, and I still think you are scum, so do whatever you want and call me scum 10 times without posting reasonings or whatever, I don't care. Although I do learned from that game that I shouldn't clog up the thread bickering against that type of players, so I'll do my best to just convince others you are scum and stop arguing with you. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Cephiro: I certainly understand why you are suspicious. But you're backing up your suspicions with the wrong reasons. You can't seriously tell me you can't understand a townie motive for my way of playing currently? (Not to mention you do not have the knowledge of my PM history.) Either you are scum or then you're playing horribly bad town. And in all honesty, I know you can do mistakes but even you shouldn't play town that badly, which leads me to think you are scum that is clogging up the thread by repeating the same things over and over, and trying to make me lose my credibility. I mean, it's win-win for you in that case. Even if you lose your credibility also, you don't really need it if you have stronger team members that take care of that part. As long as you are alive, which seems to be happening as people are ignoring you due to your clogging quite effectively, you have nothing to worry about. And your gains are making a townie lose credibility, or even get him lynched. I see much more motive for your actions from a scum than a town perspective. Original Message From gonzaw: What the...? Do you still think I'm scum? In that minority list of yours you said you would vote for me...? Dude, I just can't believe you don't get why me and other people are suspicious of you, it's just impossible for you not to figure that out. Original Message From Cephiro: Are you afraid you won't be able to make me look like a scum trying to clog up the thread when you're the one repeating the same questions over and over again? I think they've read enough of it to make up their opinion. If you want to continue convincing them that I'm scum, maybe you should try PMing people, it does wonders. As you can see in the thread, people don't really care to see more of this pointless back and forth. You can continue to pressure me by PM and try to make me "slip", and you can publish it for everyone to see. Just be careful you don't out yourself before achieving what you want. Original Message From gonzaw: No, that would waste lot of time, and I want input from other players. The point of me arguing all over is that I want other players to read it and put their opinion of it, like ET did a while ago. PMing with you and then releasing all the arguments in a bunch won't have the same effect. I want people to know what I'm thinking and to take a look at the points I'm making and the responses you make in real time. Original Message From Cephiro:
You do realize that if you want the town to know all that we are talking about, you can just publish the PMs like you did earlier so you don't have to clog up the thread with your pointless jabs at me? Or then you can just PM them forward to all your town-reads.
For all I care, do what you want.
+ Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round B wbg] +Original Message by wherebugsgo Yeah that's why I'm organizing with foolishness. If you saw my last post in the thread it's very possible VE is throwing a monkey wrench into the votes. I've talked to him a bit but not really that much. I'm going to try more today. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Okay. I was having second thoughts and thought that maybe sandro/VE could save each other and someone else random would die, like ET or Wiggles or something. About chaoser: I'm asking you if you talked to him in PMs and you discussed reads and stuff. I'm suspicious of him because of that, in the thread he doesn't seem to care about contributing reads at all and is just fixated with the plans. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: Well, everyone is doing their own thing it looks like because people think that their ideas are best. Foolishness and I are working to organize votes in such a way that VE and sandro can't be saved. In about 30 minutes I'll have comp access (on my phone ATM) and I'll put up a spreadsheet of claimed votes. As for chaoser if you believe he is scum then you've made the assertion and the burden of proof is on you, the accuser. I'm not going to go through his posts to say why he's town because that's, quite frankly, pointless. I had a slight suspicion of him earlier in the game but so far all the suspicions of him have been gut reads and not actually been founded in anything. If you want to make a case, feel free. Original Message From gonzaw:
Can you tell me wtf is going on with that "plan" of yours?
I see many people agreed with it, but most of them are spreading their votes (even the ones in the majority), and some in the majority are doing random things as well.
Are you guys planning to only kill sandroba or kill someone else too? If so, are you sure someone like VE or sandroba himself can't fuck up that plan?
For now I'm seeing random voting and that can lead to random things.
Also, if you can post in the thread why you think chaoser is town I'd appreciate it. Has he been giving reads and stuff in PMs? Because I only see him ONLY discussing that plan of yours in the thread and not contributing anything else at all.
+ Show Spoiler [More D1 Round B wbg] +Original Message from wbg that's fine. you have the spreadsheet, correct? I think I'm going to post it in the thread in a few. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I'd really like if we could kill Cephiro too, but I guess we can't do it now.
Anyways, it's getting close to the deadline and I don't want to get modkilled for not giving my votes.
So tell me if it's okay and give a go at these votes:
2x Radfield
1x Wiggles
2x EchelonTee
If one of them surpasses the 6 votes after that then I'll change them.
It's also possible someone else votes sandroba to get him to 6 or even 7, so maybe we should put more votes on those players as well.
+ Show Spoiler [More D1 Round B wbg] +Original Message by gonzaw I liked that he wanted everybody to cooperate with the plans, and sounded sensible when saying so. I thought he was townie then, since I think scum would just try to oppose said plans at first. The tone of his posts made me think he was town too, and he seemed willing to take part in discussions as well at the time and seemed to care about the discussions themselves. ..I haven't seen too much of him lately though, and he hasn't really contributed any scum reads of his own, so that's kind of worrying. But still, I'd prefer if he lives for now, we don't need another Radfield lynch on D1 >_> Show nested quote +Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah, I know what you mean. What do you think of Radfield, by the way? Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: Okay I'll wait. Of course I won't ACTUALLY send my votes until all this thing is set in stone and organized, I just want to have my votes ready so we can get this over with sooner. Original Message From wherebugsgo: wait on the votes for a few minutes. I'm pretty sure syllo gave votes to Radfield, but we need to find out for sure. Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, so sandroba already has 5 votes from VE, so if we want him to be lynched alone, these would be the amount of votes other players would need to have 6 in them: Prplhz: 1 Cephiro: 2 Mr Wiggles: 3 Meapak_Ziphh: 2 Radfield: 5 Echelon Tee: 5 Liquid`Sheth: 6 Chaoser: 6 Sounds about right? I'll give Radfield, Wiggles and ET votes Something like this perhaps: Radfield: 2 votes Wiggles: 1 votes ET: 2 votes That way it cushions the amount of votes they will need to receive
+ Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A (I think) Foolishness] +Original Message by Foolishness Hi, yeah I was out for the evening so I was gone during the posting. No need to worry about me. I told Wiggles this as well but it seems to me that you and him and Cephiro are arguing over nothing. I'll take a closer look tomorrow to make sure but I really don't see what all the hubbub is about. I think it would be better to focus attention elsewhere. Personally I'd be happy with VE/sandroba dying. I'm skeptical about chaoser. I know I attacked him first but his reaction took me to thinking that he is town and that I'm mistaken. My case also hasn't garnered as much support as I thought it would. However lots of things don't add up. Right before day was half over he sent me this PM: Show nested quote +Original Message From chaoser:
Hey, I was wondering what you thought of katina? can you pressure him a bit for me? This is the first thing he's sent me (I've never sent him anything either). I thought it was very odd that he would send this especially considering I was gunning for him earlier. I'm not quite sure what his goal was when he sent this to me. And why send it to me of all people? On the subject of Katina, yes I have been talking with her. I'm confident she is town. On what you noticed, she's usually very confident with her posting when she's town. In Arkham City she was mafia and there was a bit more hesitancy with her posts/accusations. Also her one post about mafia splitting 2-1 was pretty good. I haven't been talking to her about that so I'm assuming she figured it out on her own. I don't think a mafia would willingly reveal that sort of information to the town (hence I also think Ace is town). Anyways she's in the minority so this is not the proper time to worry about her. My idea goes along with what I've been saying in the thread. We as a town need to pick one or two people we want to kill. It's important we get a collective agreement on who (I realize this is incredibly difficult but bear with me). Once we have the people we want dead, we spread out votes on everyone else. Say we want to kill sandroba. That leaves 9 people we want to save. We have 90 votes to work with, so we have everyone spread out so that each 9 people get 10 votes. We do this in a way of spreading (that is, everyone will vote for 5 separate people instead of piling all 5 votes on one person). This way if someone tries to deviate to save sandroba (mafia or dumb townie or whatever) they will be unable to get enough votes to save him. I will post the above plan in the thread before I go to sleep now. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, you've been absent these last few hours in the game, I was getting kind of worried.
What do you think about Cephiro?
And there's someone that caught my eye as well:
What do you think about Katina? Have you PMed with her yet? She acts quite confident with her posts when there really isn't any need to, and I find that quite odd.
Of course post in the thread if you can too, we need people to actually start posting in the thread and not on PM-land so this game isn't utterly destroyed by inactivity in the thread.
And we need to come up with some kind of strategy for Round B voting as well. I PMed Radfield about it but he didn't have any plan for now.
Do you have any ideas?
+ Show Spoiler [D1 Round B Foo'] +Original Message by Foolishness I honestly don't think he's mafia and would rather lynch elsewhere at the moment. However that's not to say I wouldn't mind him dead either =P Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Please post in the thread your thoughts about Cephiro
I think I'm losing my mind here...
+ Show Spoiler [Night 1 Foolishness] +Original Message by Foolishness Yes, I think it's more likely coincidence. I asked bugs about it and he seemed to think so as well. Also doesn't seem likely that a scum team would have known how chaoser voted (since chaoser only PMed his votes to bugs and didn't post them in the thread). Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Well, since I doubt Radfield PMed wbg/chaoser in the time he came back to the thread (and they told him prp had 3 votes), in which case they would call him out since he specifically said he thought prp had 6, then either it's a coincidence, or wbg/chaoser are scum with them too (and he was told in their scum QT). Seems kind of a stretch though. THere's also the possibility they are indeed scumbuddies, and wanted prp to be "safer" since maybe they thought 6 votes weren't enough to save a scumbuddy. But for now I doubt that, and would like to take it as a coincidence instead. Other than that I think everybody followed the spreadsheet though. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: That is what I meant. I didn't catch that Radfield thought he was taking prphlz to 9. Seems bugs actually did derp that up. It does seem too much of a coincidence, but would scum have caught that? Would they know where chaoser's votes actually where? Original Message From gonzaw: I think I saw the same thing with the votes, but I wanted to check. You mean Radfield and prplz right? As in, if Radfield hadn't voted prplz, prplz would have died right? (and Radfield too since he would have been modkilled). So him voting prplz all of a sudden would mean both are scum? Or am I missing something? However Radfield made this post here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=30#583He thought prplz had 6 votes in him, not actually 3, because the spreadsheet was wrong at the time, so he didn't know he was actually saving him, unless he was in direct contact with chaoser/wbg before, but since he got very late into the thread I doubt it. If this is what you mean, then it seems too much of a coincidence, that Radfield gives enough votes to prp to survive, even though supposedely prp was already safe by the values on the spreadsheet. But that's the point right? If both are scum, they would know prp was safe, so there wouldn't be a need to vote for him, right? Unless you meant someone else.
+ Show Spoiler [Day 2 Round A Foolishness] +Original Message by Foolishness It somewhat was part of my plan to contact other scumteams. I felt like I was being clear in the thread but it seems like I'm not. I am going to try to be more transparent in the thread then. Though I will say I'm not hard planning to claim scum to other scumteams this game; I'm more just leaving it open as an option (compared to my previous game where I planned it from day 1). I guess I get iffy about posting in the thread when I'm PMing a bunch of people. Kinda like a "well I just told so many people what I thought do I really need to post it in the thread? naahh" Right now my mind is thinking BC/Palmar as mafia. Need to think about this more though. It is late at the moment but I promise I will take the time to thoroughly look at Cephiro before the day ends (at the very least before the lynch, might not get to it tomorrow). I did promise you I would look at him so I shall do that. At the moment though I would say try not to clutter the thread up about Cephiro. I really don't think it will be possible to control the round A voting today (16 people is still a lot). So I'm hesitant to go with any plan to control who is in the minority/majority today (unless a bunch of people agree on it). I think it's just better to talk and pressure people and do analysis. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey dude, I'd really like a more complete analysis of Cephiro/Ace by you.
I know you said "I don't think he's scum but wouldn't mind him to die" or some shit.
But really, I want you to read these past few pages, read Cephiro's filter and tell me what you think.
Like, I think Ace and him would be perfect Town Idiots in this setup...but it's impossible there are even TI in TL (I think they are banned or something), and both of them can't be trolling 3rd parties.
Also, if you could make more cases, post more thoughts/etc in the thread it would be great.
Since I've been PMing you I got the feeling you are town, but you seem very distant from the thread and not many people could realize that.
Unless this is part of your plan to contact the other scumteams and pretending to be scum yourself >_>
This was my attempt to get BC into the minority by having me/Foolishness/Katina/ET/wbg all vote YES:
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round A Plan talk with Foo'] +Original Message by Foolishness No problem. I'm in and out all day but I'm around enough to be able to coordinate something here. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I already PMed wbg, I'll PM ET then. I have a test right now and I'll be gone for 3-5 hours or so. If you guys are active before the deadline I'd suggest you don't vote yet so we can organize better when I come back. If not just organize yourselves and then tell me what happens when I come back, works either way. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: That's fine. I'm going to be semi busy today so you can ask them. If I need to do some convincing let me know. I've talked to bugs a lot so far and I think he feels the same way about Katina that I do. I don't think we'll have much of an issue working with bugs. wherebugsgo was also part of my fake mafia team from that game I was telling you about. We know how we both work. Original Message From gonzaw: I'll get wbg on it. I'm fairly sure ET is town. I could give you my PM logs with him, but I doubt that's necessary. About Katina: Hmm, I wouldn't mind her on the team. I don't strictly think she's town, because she's very hard to read, but I'm getting the same vibes of LI from her, and that's a good sign. However, if we get wbg/ET in this they need to agree with letting Katina in too, and I think that will be a little bit harder. Also, what answer should we choose? I was thinking YES, mainly to get some variety >_> Both of us already voted NO last time, voting NO again may seem a little weird for some people. Original Message From Foolishness: I'll agree to this plan. I would advocate as you that we get wherebugsgo in on it. First off we need to make sure we are in somewhat agreement about our reads as we don't want to be arguing amongst ourselves who we lynch. Quite a few people seem to think Cephiro is mafia now. Honestly I still don't know what to think but the few people who have told me this I trust to be town. If we are in a situation where a Cephiro lynch is possible or a good option I will get behind that. I trust your analysis of him as well. I have a town read on ET as well but I will need to make sure before I agree to him. As you would probably guess I would recommend Katina to be in on the plan as well. Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey dude, I have a new plan for this Round A of voting, I think it may work better than the other one:
We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town.
We tell each of them this plan
The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO
If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched
If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum
What do you think? I was planning on telling ET too, I've been PMing him and I'm fairly sure he's town.
After that I thought about wbg too perhaps, I think he's town too, but we can decide that later.
The other option is doing a half YES half NO vote so some of us are guaranteed to be in the minority, while the others that are in the majority will receive votes from those in the minority, etc.
Having everybody RNG votes this Round A will be a chaos, I'm sure of it
+ Show Spoiler [Day 2 Round A Plan talk with ET] +Original Message by ET Hmm, I have a feeling if that we all vote as a block, the likelihood of us ending up the majority is high. I have no problem with that since the plan says we will swap votes to each other, but it still stands that we want certain people to end up in the majority. I'm in; I'm confident you and Katina are town. WBG feels townie, but I remember him being a very crafty scum; I don't mind him being in on this though. TBH I'm not 100% confident in Foolishness, but he also had a slow start in Aperture, I suppose. Honestly I would want to add Mr. Wiggles to the plan (my most trusted town read), but too many people would be a problem. I'll PM Foolishness about it. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey ET.
Nobody seems to care about my plan for Round A, so I tried to come up with something that could actually work, or at least that would be better than random voting.
Here it is:
We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town.
We tell each of them this plan
The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO
If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched
If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum
Foolishness is already in, and I already PMed wbg about it.
I think you are town, so I think we can create a little "town voting circle" like this to organize things better for Round B.
I'm going out because I have a test, so if you have any questions PM Foolishness.
Foolishness says he wants Katina on it too. I wouldn't mind, but if you have any objections PM him.
I'll be back in 4-5 hours or so (like 2 hours before the deadline hits I think)
But ET had to fuck it up (and wbg kind of):
+ Show Spoiler [Where ET fucked up my plan] +
This is what I sent to Foolishness earlier:
---------
Hey, gonzaw told me about the voting plan. Anything is better than random voting I suppose, though I feel that if there is a block of people voting one way, the likelihood of us ending up in the majority seems much higher than us being in the minority, just by probability ruling. Because the plan accounts for us being in the majority, though, if you're confident that scummy people will end up the majority I'm all for it.
I trust gonzaw and Katina enough to be in on this. TBH you and WBG I'm not completely sold on, esp. since you guys (WBG especially) know how to play a crafty scum game, but gonzaw is very assured of you two. I would want Mr. Wiggles in on this; if our goal is for us to be in the majority, then I'll let him know about it, if you agree with my town read on him.
Now that I think about it, if we want scummy people to end up in the majority, it might be a good idea for us to vote as a group where scummy people will end up voting. By pure WIFOM, I think that people who want to be in the minority will vote No (because it was the minority vote last time). If we all vote no, we will probably end up in the majority, and we can keep our insulated group alive and lynch whoever scummy remains. Unless the majority group somehow ends up being all townie towns (unlikely), this will allow us to consolidate votes on our group + whoever other pro-towns end up in the majority, while allowing for lynches on scummier people.
In summary:
-Plan is 4-6 of us vote No.
-Presumption is that will put us in the majority, and that people who had wanted to avoid being majority are more likely to vote No.
-We then spread votes out among ourselves so that we will not be lynched, will putting scrutiny on the remaining majority people.
Does this sound ok to you?
--------------
Thus, I have voted No. I didn't tell Wiggles about the plan. Katina is in, and I told Foolishness to tell WBG. Let's see how this goes. I might be back before deadline, but I'm unsure.
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round A Plan talk with wbg] +Original Message by wbg right, but the nature of the voting system means that the players with information benefit, since you can't change your votes. A certain number of votes will be locked by a given time, so all scum have to do is go around and find out a few votes and they know the general trend; they can then get themselves into the minority fairly easily. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Well, it's one way or the other. If our group is not large (4 or less players), then I think it's likely that our choice of voting will determine if we are in the majority or minority (if we were 7 players for instance, then we would always be in the majority I think). ET wanted to be in the majority for some reason and thus voted NO. I think we could have been in the minority if we voted YES. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: this is actually why I was against vote consolidation for the A phase. It's pretty dumb when if you just consolidate your votes you increase the chance of townies being the majority by a lot. It increases the chances that a 2/1 split for mafia will end up with 2 in the minority, too. Original Message From gonzaw: Meh, I wanted us to be in the minority so I wanted YES initially, but it still works. However, considering Palmar said he voted NO as well, and some others will too, it's likely the gap betwen majority/minority will be bigger than on D1. I don't know if that's good or bad, but whatever. Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah, I voted no. I think the majority is going to be no today. Original Message From gonzaw: Wait, what did you vote? Cause ET already voted NO, if you voted YES then it's pointless. *sigh* I think it would be better if all of us vote at the last minute in next days, because if not we'll encounter problems like this Original Message From wherebugsgo: Yeah I'm fine with that, but I've voted already. Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey wbg.
Since nobody seems to like my plan or even try to follow it, I tried to come up with a new one that is more likely to work:
We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town.
We tell each of them this plan
The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO
If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched
If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum
I already PMed Foolishness about it.
I was thinking of getting ET on it as well. I've been PMing with him, and taking that and his posts in the thread into account I'm fairly sure he's town.
Foolishness said he wanted Katina on it as well. I wouldn't mind her since I don't really think she's scum and I trust Foolishness' read, but I don't know if you/ET would agree with it.
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round A Plan talk with Foo'] +Original Message by Foolishness Okay. If we already set the plan then there is nothing we can do about it. I don't think it would be wise for us to switch over even if we knew all the votes as that makes us look mighty shady. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
So I got in touch with ET/wbg and they already voted NO. I guess that's what we are going for then, but we'll very likely go into the majority, and I think the gap between majority/minority will be very high if people keep voting NO.
I don't know if that's good or bad for us though.
I guess we vote NO then, I'll wait until right before the deadline before voting to see if something else happens.
+ Show Spoiler [Fake PM with chaoser :3] +Original Message by chaoser I think sandro and ET are scum together. I' m still suspicious of syllo and palmar, palmar did that whole "king me!" thing. There's no way he thought that would work and people would actually do it. and combined with syllo and his "lets normal vote and then give votes to everyone but the person we normal voted on in round b", they've just been putting out plans that 100% won't work. aside from ceph and WBG, no one has pmed me. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Okay dude, you seem keep ignoring me this game.
What are your reads? Who do you think is scum? I've only seen you post about plans in the thread, and only said you thought Katina/sandro are scum like once.
I thought that maybe you were PMing with a lot of people or something about your reads, but post them in the thread please.
A lot of people seem to think you are town all of a sudden so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg] +Original Message from wbg yup, people being dumb means we can't kill who we want to kill. We just have to ensure that we're safe. When I read Sheth's post on cephiro I saw he said he wants more time to tell what Cephiro is. That could be a town motivation to keep him alive but it still bothers me that he gave him votes. w/e. It limits who we can kill, but I also don't like meapak saying we shouldn't give votes to prpl. Why is he dictating that so suddenly with no previous mention of him? Whatever. Thanks for that btw; I forgot LI. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: About ET: Yeah, check LI he was townie there: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046About that Meapak claim: Ehmm, wtf? Did he claim Cephiro is blue or something? I don't buy that either. If Ceph/Meapak was blue they'd keep their mouths shut, and wouldn't specially tell you considering how much Cephiro "likes" you. Well, yeah deciding who to kill's gonna get pretty hard, that's why I'd suggest to just see what happens this day, but focus on getting the votes (or at least the claims) on us first, and then decide what to do next. How would you recommend doing a mass-killing? If we get all Cephiro/Meapak/BC (for instance) on 5 votes each (again, for instance), it takes 1 vote from meapak/wiggles saying "oh noes Ceph is town" to save Ceph/Meapak and kill BC (for instance); or 1 vote from someone randomly voting BC to save him and kill the other two. And again you won't know if it was his scumbuddy saving him, a scum saving someone not from his team to induce WIFOM, or a very stupid apathetic townie. Although, if we get ALL claimed votes, and various people reach the lowest place in votes, then scum can't really change their votes and contradict their own claims (that is really claiming scum), so I guess it can work then. In that case, we need a REALLY good organization so that can happen Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah I'll try not to fuck it up this time. I think it's going to be really hard to get exactly who we want lynched, but I'm fine with killing BC/cephiro/chaoser/meapak at this point. prpl I have a town read on and I need more time for ET, since his scum play is fairly good. Do you have a game that I can reference where ET is town? Also, I actually think mass-killing might be viable. Mafia have to kill each other as well as town, so even if we kill 2 townies with 2 scum the trade is favorable for us because the town-scum ratio is 2-1, and if two townies die at night the trade is even. Otherwise we may spend too much time going around in circles not killing scum, allowing townies to get picked off by the lynch mechanics. Meapak says Cephiro is "useful" to him in PMs and says something will happen in the next night. I honestly don't buy it, but that may be a reason to leave meapak (and, sadly) cephiro alive for another cycle. The only reason I think this is because it may just be a better idea to not allow anyone to vote BC, since BC is also pretty scummy at this point. When it gets down to it we might want to get BC to 5 votes, but to coordinate that we'd need to get everyone else above 5 votes too. Meh :/ pretty dumb. 30 votes from scum can really fuck this all up. Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, are you going to make another spreadsheet for the votes?
Anyways, there are 80 votes (16 players alive*5 votes) and 10 players in the majority. That means that a player is safe from the lynch with 9 votes.
That means that these:
EchelonTee
Foolishness
gonzaw
Katina
wherebugsgo
...need 9 votes each.
I want to get Cephiro lynched, even if Sheth tells the truth (*sigh*). Ceph can only be saved with 4 more votes, so unless someone makes a very stupid move (like VE did) and gives 4 votes himself to Cephiro he'll stay below 9.
The other lynches I'd discuss would be BC/prp/Meapak.
BC is doing shit, and whenever he comes to the thread just complains to people and goes back being inactive. He's very likely scum, so getting him killed along Cephiro would be nice.
I don't know about prp/Meapak though. I'm not too sure about both of them, prp because although he made very bad posts (like really bad ones) on D1, he's acting all "defeated" (saying "Oh sorry I played so bad guys I'll improve" and shit). Plus he fucked up his votes and voted people from the minority last Round B, I don't know if he'd do that as scum.
Meapak is another one I'm not sure of. I had him as town on D1 but now he's acting way too weird, he's not doing shit, he's aggressive to anybody, being disruptive as hell, not contributing, etc.
Either way, whoever of those we want to lynch, we need to give ourselves+Palmar 9 votes, so I guess we can start there.
Basically I thought this:
We "reserve" (as in, they are claimed votes that go in the spreadsheet) 3 votes from each of us to give to another one from our group (I give Katina 3 votes, Katina gives you 3 votes, you give ET 3 votes, etc).
Then we encourage other players to vote for us until we reach 9 votes.
That way each of us has 2 "free" votes we can use on Palmar/prp/Meapak/BC/Cephiro depending on what we decide to do with the lynch, and to avoid anybody doing some weird shit at the last moment by having the ability to quickly change our votes without doing the whole spreadsheet again.
Sounds good?
+ Show Spoiler [More D2 Round B wbg] +Original Message by wbg Then our aim should be to dictate where the votes go, and if the players don't comply then we kill them. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I said I prefered having 3, or at least 4 votes in such "circle trade". That way, if for instance in the end Palmar has 4 votes and Cephiro 5, we can use our "spare" votes to lift Palmar and lynch Cephiro. If not then we can't do anything if all votes are already accounted for. Also, if not we will have all our votes spent and can't do anything else, and the lynch will be decided solely by other people and we won't have any say (and since I'm confident our group is town, it is scum who have more leverage to sway the lynch). Hide nested quote -
Original Message From wherebugsgo:
I assume we can get enough support to get all of us to around 8 votes at least.
If we have to, we can use all 5 of our votes in a circle trade. In fact, I'm basically planning on that.
In the majority then are these players who I'd be fine with killing:
BC
cephiro
meapak
Everyone else either looks town or is townie enough that I don't want to kill them today.
BC lynch would be nice.
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B Foolishness] +Original Message from Foolishness I like your plan. You advocate Palmar is town and needs to be saved? I'd rather save prphlz than Palmar at this point. I'm iffy about Meapak right now as I told you. But I don't think we can garner enough support to get him lynched (and killing BC/Cephiro is strictly better at this point anyways). I don't think we should be worried about getting to 9, but to 8 instead. We can't control everyone however. We let bugs do his thing like he did yesterday. I will need to send my votes in 2-3 hours before the deadline because I will be going out (going to go PM bugs this right after I send this). Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I'll talk to wbg and see if he'll make one of those spreadsheets again. Maybe we can do the same thing as D1 and try and get Cephiro lynched. We get everybody except him to 8 votes, and hope nobody gives him 4 more votes. Maybe we can put BC on 5 votes too, but having 2 players with the same votes is risky and anybody can choose to save one and kill the other. I don't know if we'll discuss a prp or a Meapak lynch though. I'm not too sure about prp either, because his posts were so bad it's not funny. However he fucked up by voting people from the minority, and I don't know if he'd fuck up like that as scum (intentionally or unintentionally). He isn't contributing either by now, even though he'd said he'd try and play better Either way, that means we'll need 9 votes on these (well, it's out "voting group"+Palmar): EchelonTee Foolishness gonzaw Katina Palmar wherebugsgo We can start arranging that for now. I'd suggest "reserving" (in the spreadsheet) 3 votes for each of us, and encouraging others to vote for us (and claim to us said votes so they go into the spreadsheet). That way we can reach 9 votes, but we can use our votes on others so we can determine who we lynch of prp/Cephiro/BC/Meapak and avoid any shenanigans. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: Yes you can give me the biggest "I told ya so" dance if Cephiro flips mafia. I agree on Meapak as well. Day 1 I was calling him one of my strongest town reads. Now I just feel sort of bleh about him. I was also talking to wherebugsgo earlier today about Meapak and he said he's feeling iffy about him as well. I need to talk to bugs about Meapak. I'm trying to remember what he was like in the last mafia we played with him. My instinct says that slightly aggressive and pushy Meapak is scum Meapak. I think when he is town he is more modest and passively helpful. Original Message From gonzaw:
Told you.
We will need a lot of cooperation if we want to lynch Cephiro. I have the feeling Meapak will do something similar as well.
There are 80 votes, and 10 candidates. That means players are safe with 9 votes. If Meapak or someone else gives Ceph even 4 votes we can't touch him.
I still don't know what to think about Meapak. On D1 he seemed kind of enthusiastic to post, even though all he posted was just to oppose the plans.
But after D1 Round B he just trolls, doesn't contribute, and is acting like an asshole. I don't know what to think of that, or why he changed his behaviour so much
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Katina] +Original Message from Katina I'm not sure what I think of him anymore. Just about everyone wants to kill him it would seem. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Great Hey, now that you are here, what do you think of Cephiro? (I don't remember if you mentioned him before) Hide nested quote - Original Message From Katina: I just sent my No vote as well. Original Message From gonzaw: You have to vote NO (apparently wbg and ET got too excited and sent their votes without discussing about it first >_> ) I just sent mine. Original Message From Katina: Yes, he told me about it. I'm about to send in my vote. Original Message From gonzaw: I dunno, I just got home from a test, so I guess I'm thinking about that now lol Anyways, are you in on the plan? I suppose Foolishness told you about it Original Message From Katina:
Hi!
What's on your mind sir?
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B slOosh] +Original Message from slOosh Mmm, makes sense. I'll start posting at night, as I'm in the process of some PM stuff, but then I'll have enough to move into the thread. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Posting reads in the thread isn't "dangerous" I think. I mean, in a normal game you post reads in the thread and games go on as normal, I don't see why this game should be a difference. Also the people you PM with and give reads to may be satisfied, but those that don't PM you don't, so you are basically alienating them. Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: I don't like Cephiro's anti-town attitude. Meapak I'm trying to figure out through PMs. I've been in contact with wbg about the votes. It's hard to just post my reads in the thread because it is a PM game, and I feel information is a bartering tool to both prove my own innocence as well as glean people's responses to my reads. I'll be posting more during the phase A stage, as right now openly giving scum teams info is quite dangerous. Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey dude.
When you finish reading the thread, I'd like you to post your reads/thoughts in the thread (although that's a given, just want to make sure you remember ).
Anyways, at first glance, who would you kill today from the guys in the majority?
What do you think about Cephiro? And Meapak?
Some of us are trying to organize votes for this Round B. At least organize votes to give to the players that won't be part of the lynch so they get to 9 votes as soon as possible and discussion about them ends soon (so we can have more discussion about who to lynch).
So PM me or wbg about who you'd give your votes to, or post in the thread, whatever and we can organize something.
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg] +Original Message by wbg ET already claimed I think. 3 to Katina is fine. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, so who should I give my votes to for now? Maybe I'll keep it simple and give 3 to Katina, since she's below me on the "Players that voted NO" list. Who is the one from our group with the lowest vote count on him so far? ET asked me to tell him who to vote for too (said he'd be back right before the deadline or something), so if you can tell me the votes for him too, or just PM him directly. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah I'm keeping the sheet private. Syllo has edit access and that's it. Original Message From gonzaw: I was also thinking something else. Instead of posting the spreadsheet in the thread soon, you PM it to our group first. That way you should get claims from other players without them knowing how the voting stands, that way if they are mafia they can't manipulate the votes. That way we are the ones that will decide the lynch and not scum. Of course you can post the spreadsheet in the thread once all votes have been claimed or something What do you think? Original Message From wherebugsgo: you have 6 so far; out of 15 claimed. Basically the sheet looks fine for now. I'm trying to get vote claims from some of the more "out there" players (i.e. chaoser/sheth) Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, so what are the votes shaping up to? That way I'll give my 3 "reserved" votes now, but we have to choose who to give them to from our "voting block" (to make it even, at least for now). Original Message From wherebugsgo: Yeah I've started. I was out for an hour and in that time I received 10 PMs lol. Original Message From gonzaw:
Have you started organizing the votes yet?
We shouldn't waste too much time, if not the same thing from D1 will happen and all votes will start flying in in the last 10 minutes of the day
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg freakout] +Original Message by wbg basically a bunch of people afked (foolishness+katina) and there was a timing issue with chaoser not being around when I needed him. So basically I ended up 5 too many votes, foolishness ended up with too many votes, and katina has a couple too many. I assume you didn't send your votes in yet, right? Syllo and I suspect that if BC and Cephiro vote trade they'll end up at 5 votes. Thus, meapak will be left at 0 (we're okay with meapak dying but we don't particularly want only him to die) So, I've saved all my votes so I can get meapak to 5, but that leaves ET below 5. We definitely don't want ET to die, so if you can give all your votes to ET he'll live. Katina is at 10 counting your 3. If you put all 5 on ET he goes to 8 and katina goes to 7. You can give 4 to ET and 1 to katina and that's fine too. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah I'm here, what happened? Hide nested quote -
Original Message From wherebugsgo:
I need your votes right now
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg Freakout Cont.] +Original Message by wbg yeah this is stupid as hell. Alright, I'll give meapak 4 and ET 1. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: No, don't let ET die. There's also the chance that only ET and Meapak die while BC Cephiro get more votes out of somewhere and survive But damn, this is hard. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: well, if BC lied and he sent all his votes to Cephiro then only Meapak will die and vice versa. It could be pretty bad because Meapak will only end up with 4 votes. However if only meapak dies then BC is confirmed scum. Not much help obviously, since we still need to luck out in him getting into majority later, but... fuck. The other possibility is risking ET dying by giving meapak five. then all of them will have five votes and they'll all die. What do you think? Give meapak 4 and potentially he's the only one who dies, or give meapak five and potentially all four of them die? Original Message From gonzaw: So if BC/Cephiro trade votes that means all of BC/Cephiro/Meapak die then? Original Message From wherebugsgo: I'll give 1 to ET and 4 to meapak; that should put ET at 6 and meapak at 5 (if BC gave him 1 vote) this is tense lol. waiting on BC to reply Original Message From gonzaw: I already gave 3 to Katina :/ I asked Protact if we could send votes in bunches and he said he was fine, so I sent them already since I had spare votes. I have 2 remaining, I'll send them to ET right away. Can you get votes from somewhere else to save him? Unless he hits 8 votes he can get lynched Original Message From wherebugsgo: I'm missing claims from BC/cephiro and your remaining two votes. That's it at this point. I have five remaining as well. Today will work out if we can get ET above the 5 vote threshold. Original Message From gonzaw: How much votes does he have? What about the rest? Do the rest have enough votes as well? Who didn't send votes yet? Original Message From wherebugsgo:
if you can.
if you haven't sent all of them in, take 1-2 off katina (ET is at 3 and we need him at 6)
+ Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg more talk] +Original Message by wbg sheth lied. Or at least, he said he lied. So if Cephiro has 5 votes from Sheth then we know Sheth is scum as well Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Can Cephiro die in that case? I thought Sheth gave him 5 votes. Hide nested quote -
Original Message From wherebugsgo:
I'm dumb, scratch that
either BC saves cephiro and cephiro saves BC ; if that happens then only meapak dies.
If I give meapak 5 votes and BC is not lying about giving meapak votes, meapak lives but cephiro will die.
So I should give meapak five votes. Agreed? [ [ [
+ Show Spoiler [N2 wbg] +Original Message by wbg no one lied from the looks of it, gonna double/triple check Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah you may be right. But scum from the other party need to die for us to make connections like that. Well, I don't know if it's bad or not that Cephiro didn't vote. I think he could have given BC some votes if he had voted. Anyways, did someone lie about their votes or where the other ones accounted for? Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: Palmar claimed 5 on prplhz, cephiro probably because he's scum. at least I'm going to assume that for now loll. It's also possible Palmar is scum as well. Foolishness+Katina are linked but they both thought BC was scum. If a scum of the other party flips and he is pushed by those 2 then I think we can safely assume they are town. We need sandro to flip pretty badly. Original Message From gonzaw:
Wow, that went better than expected.
I thought that maybe someone had given BC 5 votes or something.
Why the hell didn't Palmar or Cephiro vote though?
+ Show Spoiler [D3 Round A wbg] +Original Message by wbg nah better for us to vote randomly I think. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey.
Do you think we can do that plan I told you yesterday? Katina PMed me about it and thought it was good to.
We are 4 players right now from our "voting circle" of yesterday: you, me, Katina, ET.
2 of us vote YES and 2 of us vote NO. That way we will have no influence over the minority/majority (perhaps that is best at this time), but ALL of us won't be in the majority again and we can focus on other people on Round B
+ Show Spoiler [D3 Round A ET] +Original Message by ET worked out relatively OK I guess. I'm really curious for the post game tbh, b/c I bet Ver/Incog are shaking their heads "this town... here is obvious plan for controlling phase A". What's up with the talk about sloosh? I pm'd him a bit earlier; he didn't respond too extensively though, just asking for my top scum read. Does he look scummy for in-thread or PM reasons? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: wbg said he wouldn't follow it and we should vote randomly. I'll vote YES; I've been voting NO all these days. Also at least we can trade votes between each other Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I voted No, fyi, don't know if you're following through with plan. Original Message From gonzaw:
I was thinking that me,you, wbg and Katina could vote like this:
2 vote NO
2 vote YES
That way we won't risk ALL of us being in the majority again and having to waste all time trying to get votes on us first; we can easily get 10 votes (between us) on the 2 that end up in the majority very early and that's it, and then we can focus on other players.
What do you think?
+ Show Spoiler [D3 Round B wbg, attempt to save chaoser] +Original Message by wbg yes but I don't know what scum will do. Scum can claim anything and do anything. If we don't know the number of votes that are placed then any one of them will die (whoever has the fewest) Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Well, my thought was that if we "go along" prp's plan in the thread, scum may buy it and think the votes are different than they aactually are. Doesn't matter if chaoser/Meapak give 5 votes each, unless Sheth receives 8 or 9 votes he'll get lynched. If scum think the votes are 0/0/0, perhaps they'll give less votes to Sheth thinking they can get chaoer/Meapak lynched instead, so they'll give him 1 or 2 votes or something. Yeah, it's difficult to control where the votes go, but at least you have the spreadsheet and everybody claim their votes to you so you can control it as the day goes on. I'll keep my votes until right before the deadline, you should too, and depending on the claims you get we see what we can do. Anyways, I'm off to uni, so good luck trying to organize this thing (please don't let that ET incident from last day happen again >_> ) Hide nested quote -
Original Message From wherebugsgo:
I'm holding onto my votes as well, but we need to be careful about it.
Supposing we give meapak/chaoser 5 votes each and they trade votes, they end up saving each other.
I agree that it would be difficult to control exactly who dies but I dunno. I want to see what scum will do if 3 people are up to die.
I'm not really sure how to predict where the votes will go unless we ensure only Sheth dies.
+ Show Spoiler [D3 Round B wbg Attempt to save chaoser…] +Original Message by gonzaw Nah fuck it. I'll give Meapak 3 votes and chaoser 2. I'd recommend you to give chaoser 3 and Meapak 2 so both have 5 votes Show nested quote +Original Message From wherebugsgo: I think it's best we don't influence the lynch, now that I think about it more. If we make sure no one is told to vote for meapak/cephiro/chaoser then the only votes that go in that direction are scum. Then we can direct the lynches on later days on specific people. One person WILL die and it WILL be one of those 3. It's not like we lose much by just letting them do whatever they want. If we were to get meapak/chaoser to 3/3 for example and sheth gets 4 votes from somewhere and chaoser gets 5 then meapak dies. This is very volatile and we're just making it harder for ourselves. I have not sent in my votes but I will now. Probably 1/1/1/1/1. Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: But MZ wont' die if Sheth has 1 vote for instnace. If I don't split the vote MZ will die if Sheth has 1 vote. I'd prefer to take a chance on that, I mean, we don't lose anything, and if Sheth does indeed have 1-2 votes we will benefit from it. Maybe you could give 1 vote to Meapak or chaoser and I'll split the vote 3/2, that way it's even Did you send your votes yet? Original Message From wherebugsgo: syllo probably won't answer you cause he's asleep. I'm out in about 10 minutes. And I do mean Cephiro. Cephiro is in the minority so his votes are extra basically. anyway even if scum can choose who to kill I'm fine with any 3 of those guys dying (chaoser sheth meapak). Obviously I'm least okay with only meapak dying, which is why I suggested giving meapak 5 votes. If you split 3/2 on meapak/chaoser or something like that and chaoser gets any votes at all from sheth or cephiro, meapak dies (say meapak is town then) and your votes were wasted. An individual player has the most influence by stacking votes on a single player. Judging by the connections between players it would be a better idea to stack votes on one person we think is town in that case (or most likely to be town) instead of splitting because splitting doesn't really accomplish anything. Original Message From gonzaw: I guess you mean chaoser and not Cephiro >_> Honestly, I see splitting my votes the best deal. I don't want to gamble on chaoser or Meapak being scum at this point by giving the other one 5 straight votes, specially if it means Sheth will still live. I'll PM syllogism and see what he thinks, it's that okay? Original Message From wherebugsgo:
I have a final exam in about an hour so I can't make it for deadline.
Everyone should have followed the prplhz plan; I have sandro voting the same way (for everyone but chaoser/sheth/meapak in the majority) and meapak has claimed votes on me.
no idea who cephiro is voting but he's the only ? factor.
I'm going to leave this up to you, I'm 50/50 and honestly don't really care as I want all 3 of those guys to die.
However I think the safe route would be giving meapak 5 votes and then allowing sheth + cephiro to just die, as he's the one I'm most unsure about.
If you split your votes over chaoser/meapak it may not mean anything if sheth receives 5.
truly though I don't think it matters what you do. Do what you think is best and cite this PM if anyone gives you trouble while I'm gone (though I should be back about ~2 hours after deadline anyway)
+ Show Spoiler [N3 wbg] +Original Message by wbg my example of putting 5 on meapak was merely an example. When meapak announced to the thread that he was receiving 5 from sheth it should have been apparent that you would not need to put votes on him. Cephiro had already said he wasn't putting votes on Sheth. That's when the "put votes on one person to influence the lynch" kicks in. Cephiro knew the three people we were trying to kill. If he says he's not voting sheth then that suggests he's okay with sheth dying (i.e. cephiro and sheth are not connected). When meapak says sheth is giving him 5 votes that automatically means sheth is receiving 0 and cephiro is putting 5 on chaoser. it is at that point that sheth becomes most likely to flip town out of the 3 and you would put 5 on him. Sadly meapak posted that almost half an hour into my final. I sent my votes in at 10:30 KST and he posted it at 11:30 KST. meh. At least we've eliminated one person and we know chaoser is still very likely to be scum. I'm still suspicious of sloosh as well. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Well, the instructions have nothing to do with it. If I have 5 votes to Meapak, Sheth would still have gotten lynched. Same if I just followed prp's voting system. Unless you've told me to give 5 votes to Sheth he would have gotten lynched, hell, even if I put my 5 votes on him he would have gotten lynched. Also, I feel a little responsible for the misslynch too. I tried to push a single lynch on Sheth the whole day, so trying to get a single lynch on chaoser or Meapak was almost impossible to make. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: I just got back. I'm writing a post, read it. Sorry for not giving you clearer instructions, I was preoccupied. We should've 100% been able to lynch scum today, and I will take the blame for that mislynch. Original Message From gonzaw:
What a disaster.
I can't believe Sheth was town, his play didn't make any sense.
Anyways, it seems my "play" didn't matter at all either, since Sheth gave Meapak 5 votes and Cephiro gave chaoser 5.
What do you think Cephiro giving chaoser 5 votes means? (other than Cephiro basically outing himself as scum)
Are they scumbuddies? Or did he try to frame him and get an easy lynch on Sheth in the process?
Even if Cephiro tried to frame him, there's still the possibility they are scum from different factions though.
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round A Meapak] +Original Message by Meapak It's like 20 pages when pasted into MS word... gl. I'll probably be asleep soon but if you like what you read in the PMs just let me know tomorrow and I'll get coordinating on the plan for round A Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Oh alright, I thought it had some deeper meaning behind it or something Anyways, I'll go read those PMs with you and wbg to figure out what's going on, I'll PM you back as soon as I finish them... ...I can't promise that will be soon though >_> Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Sorry ok. On the right are the voting lists, day 1 is on top followed by day 2 and day 3. On the left are who was in the minority VS who was in the majority. The names are copied directly from the day posts so that's just the order protact put them in. Below the stuff on the left are the same lists just with the names rearanged for ease of viewing to tell who's been in what section (minority/majority)... bugs made that section so I'm not quite sure what he was doing with it. Original Message From gonzaw: Ehm could you explain to me a little bit what it means? I mean, okay at the right you have what everybody voted in each Round B, and at the left you have the votes from Round A repeated twice. But why are the player names scrambled in those lists at the left? Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auq9565OCwtldEFLN25uQUtabEE5anBfUV9GRlJMOHc#gid=0Here's the spreadsheet. Have a look around, I'm pretty sure we're on the right track but you might pick up something we missed. Original Message From gonzaw: Also no, he didn't give me the spreadsheet nor discussed this with me, at least not on N3. Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh:
Glad you're online, I'd like you to follow my plan but I'm gonna need to know that you're not going to spread it. I know bugs trusted you and I'm pretty sure he gave you the spreadsheet we worked on, if he didn't let me know.
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round A ET] +Original Message by ET What the balls? WBG never told you those reads? This is starting to get a little fishy. This is what MZ sent me when I asked him how Palmar/Wiggles were scum: Show nested quote +Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: The Palmar read comes from WBG and Syllo's PMs apparently and I sadly don't have those. Wiggles is actually a pretty easy one, he's played his scum meta to the T, follows scum voting patterns, and hasn't contributed a thing. If you'd like I can give you my PMs with WBG. Also you should have this spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auq9565OCwtldEFLN25uQUtabEE5anBfUV9GRlJMOHc#gid=0I too was slightly surprised at syllo's flip, however as you'll see on the spreadsheet, everything fits very nicely. Doesn't sound really substantiated to me, and I hope he explains how the spreadsheet shows X or Y because I can't make heads or tails of it atm. Hrmph. I'll wait to see the PMs between WBG and MZ before judging. Regardless, we should proceed with the plan anyways, b/c it's the easiest way to ensure that not all scum can hide in minority. I'm going to vote YES, you should vote NO. I will tell mz to vote YES, and Katina to vote NO. I'll think about the rest of the players in a bit. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I'll answer real quick cause I'm going to sleep. Yes I thought it would be like that. Hmm, you, me, Katina and Meapak should surely do it ourselves, then I don't really know. prp and sloosh can be partners too, Wiggles and Palmar perhaps too. I'm kind of suspicious of all 4, now I'm more suspicious of Wiggles than the others though. Meapak still hasn't explained to me how he an wbg "discovered" Wiggles and Palmar are scum though, maybe it has something to do with the voting or something. Either way, we could start creating partnerships right now. For instance you+me+Katina+Meapak can already vote or claim to vote 2 NOs and 2 YESs, then we see what we do with the rest of the players. Anyways, going to sleep. Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh:
No he didn't :/
My plan works like this, each townie teams up with a partner. Partner A votes yes Partner B votes no. That means that both Yes and No votes are even, all that's left is for the scum to vote. Even if the scum teams coordinate, it still ensures that there are at least three scum up for lynch.
At this point I'm not concerned about being in the majority vs the minority, all I want is to force scum into the majority so we can kill them. We still have enough townie votes to save the three townies who will end up in the majority. Essentially the same plan me and you did. I think it's funny (and good looking) if MZ came up with it on his own; I asked him if WBG had told him about his previous plans, and MZ said no. I think this is a good plan, because it minimizes the amount of votes we need to mobilize to protect townie people. I'm just musing on who we should consider very townie at this point. I'm most sure about you, Katina, and prplhz. After that comes MZ, Palmar, and Wiggles, but the latter 2 MZ claims are looking scummy. Thoughts on that? Original Message From gonzaw: Nope.. I asked him about his discussions with wbg and such, but he went away before he got to explain the plan to me. From his discussion with wbg I think it has something to do with that "half votes NO/half votes YES" thing we tried (and failed) to do last day though, or maybe he'll change it slightly or something. Original Message From EchelonTee:
has MZ talked to you about his plan?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round A Meapak] +Original Message by Meapak I have no idea why WBG didn't send you this stuff. I was under the impression that he had told you the same stuff that he told me and it would just be a matter of you and I telling the thread what to do. I mean as you can see from the PMs, he told me he was gonna tell you. Why he didn't is beyond me. There's a PM in there where he talks about his Palmar suspicion and how he didn't want to spread it around so I assumed he had discussed it with you (since syllo was sure Palmar was town). Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Oh. Yes I contacted ET, he told me he will vote YES and I should vote NO, and he'll tell you what to vote as well. I'm going to uni in half an hour or so, so I won't vote until then, so try to get that organized. I agree with Wiggles being scum, but I'm not too sure about Palmar, so make that case and post those "patterns" you guys found as soon as possible. Oh, do you have any idea why wbg didn't tell me anything about that thing you discussed or that he said he was going to tell me? Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I have given the spreadsheet and my PMs to every townie aside from Katina (she'll get it, she only just got in contact with me). Sorry about taking so long to answer, prplhz has been giving me a little trouble so it just slipped down the list. I'm going to make formal cases against Palmar and Wiggles and post them in the thread. Then I'll go back and PM you individual reads on everyone else. In the meantime have you go in contact with ET? Are you guys gonna vote together? Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey dude would you mind answering my previous PM?
Also, I think at some point I've seen other users in that spreadsheet you gave me, did you give it to other people as well?
Did you give your PMs with wbg to other players as well?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round A sloosh] +Original Message by sloosh I'd say the list is totally accurate. Palmar is suspicious because syllo and WBG just died but he still feels inclined to withhold the information to himself, and is interested in discussing theories surrounding sandroba getting into minority rather than finding the scum. Mr. Wiggles is suspicious because of his general inactivity in the thread, and the irrational fear that he might die last night.. Quotes like Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on Sloosh? There seemed to be a general feeling that he was scum, but now I don't see his name being mentioned at all for the lynch. Did something happen in PM land that I missed? Feels really really off - it promotes a fake idea so townies start thinking in a skewed manner, while innocently pushing me as a lynch candidate whilst not taking any responsibility if I end up becoming one. If he thought I was scum he would push me no? prplhz I'm counting as basically confirmed town based on foolishness / syllo / WBG's reads as well as his multi-lynch plan (which scum wouldn't suggest). Additionally, the voting evidence indicates that a wiggles / palmar / sandroba team is very plausible. They probably screwed around with the 2-1 and got lucky when sandroba hit minority, which explains why palmar is pushing his theory anyhows. If sandroba hit majority, whoever would probably have bussed hard for town cred. I can't really see how one of them could be town because it would mean one of my town reads are wrong, in which case the scum teams wouldn't make sense. you seem townie, foolishness was sure katina was town, I'm almost definite Meapak's PMs are legit, there is no way you can doctor something that accurately / extensively and WBG has shown that he thought meapak could be very well town (and syllo expressed this too which probably means WBG and syllo talked about it). ET looks fine and a scum team with him on it makes no sense (3 of them end up in minority D3 can't be). If you have any more questions just shoot them my way. Now its all about consolidating the townies together and killing off the scum. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: No, wbg didn't tell me anything about it. I was as surprised as you when he gave me those PMs as well. The last PM from wbg I got was around the same time he started explaining the whole "If gonzaw had given 5 votes to Sheth all 3 would have been killed" and he explained the same thing to me (also, I'm not very proud of that either >_> ). I asked him if wbg had told him anything else but he didn't respond to me yet. Speaking of which sloosh, what do you think of prp, Palmar and Wiggles? If one of those were scum, who would you choose and why? I'm confident that the 2 remaining scum are in the group of sloosh/prphlz/Wiggles/Palmar, or at worst at least 1 of them is there. You are the one less suspicious of that group, but you haven't really given your opinions or reads on players other than Ceph/chaoser/sandro/ (giving opinion on those is not that hard though, just saying "yup they are scum" seems like the popular choice lately) so I'm still a little bit wary. Hide nested quote -
Original Message From slOosh:
Hey, just wanted extra confirmation.
Meapak sent me his PMs with WBG, which say that WBG discussed the plan out with syllo and you in the case he got shot. Can you confirm this?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round A prplhz] +Original Message by prplhz He has a huge fucking filter :D Since you believe in scum tells you should believe in town tells too, being active is generally a town tell No, I don't think that he's town, but I would be more sure that he was scum if he had stopped saying anything. I don't care much about cases, I've seen cases from scum and cases from town and I can hardly ever see a difference. I don't trust you unconditionally but you're not priority to get killed They never told me anything lol, I'm just some noob. I asked for some stuff but I never really got anything. I'm not going to make stuff up when it isn't there, and yes, I am pretty much just sheeping other people's opinions. Sucks, but that's kind of how it is. Town can easily sheep too and it's not like my filter is empty or anything. Yea, I know that saying that you're bad is a scum tell and I can prove that to you. I pointed it out when I did it in some other game too so that's a null tell I also think that I'm playing better but apparently not You can think of it what you want, read my filter and tell me if you think it's scummy 'cause it isn't. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: How is Cephiro "really putting effort into the game"? I haven't seen him make a single case the whole game. Also, do you think I'm scum or not? You said earlier that you thought I was, but now you don't apparently...? So, why do you think Meapak is scum? You can't just say "I'm sheeping syllo's/wbg's read" or some shit, come up with your own, or at least tell me what syllo/wbg told you in PMs about him and say if you agree with it. I also expect original content from you. You can't just say "Yep, I'll just sheep wbg/syllo" and expect to get away with it. You've been apologizing and saying how "bad" you are playing throughout the whole game and I don't like that one bit. You said so on N1 and you said you'd play better and stuff, but you are still just sheeping and apologizing. Dude, what do you want me to think of that? Hide nested quote - Original Message From prplhz: There's not really much to it. I didn't do much in the beginning of this game 'cause I was ill and then I kind of dropped out because people thought I was town while I thought that syllogism/Palmar/wherebugsgo were town and I thought that I'd just sheep them. All of my reads are heavily influenced by those three and any reasoning I could give you will be superficial and simple and probably also pretty dumb, because I mostly just sheeped those guys. Liquid`Sheth was scum because syllogism told me. I didn't really personally think that he was all that scummy but syllogism insisted that he had claimed scum or whatever and you guys apparently didn't like him either. When everybody stacks someone in a vet game then I think they're most likely scum, vets don't just go around sheeping each other for no reason (well, I do, but I'm horrible). Yea, I'm purposely being a little vague about those two because I don't fully trust you yet. Sorry about that. Cephiro gives me second doubts because he is really putting effort into this game, but sandroba is giving me second doubts because he isn't really putting effort into this game. Anyway, sandroba will allegedly do whatever I say and that's a plus for now so he's not really priority for me. Uh, Cephiro/sandroba/chaoser/Meapak_Ziphh/someone where someone could easily be Mr. Wiggles. I agree that his filter is not impressive at all and that he's kinda been skirting by. Original Message From gonzaw: I know they were "kind of your reads", but post reasoning. Why did you think Sheth was scum for instance? Why did you think chaoser and Meapak were scum? You never posted any reasoning or any case or anything, you just said "Kay guys this is a voting plan to kill Sheth/Meapak/chaoser kthxbye". I don't get what's "to like" about Cephiro/sandroba, they are obvious scum at this point, Cephiro specifically. If you don't think that list is very good....then who's scum? ET? Katina? Me? If so why? If not why? I'm trying to find the remaining scum here, not just throw a bunch of town reads in the air and then do nothing at all. If you are town then try to find the remaining 2 scum as well, or if you think Meapak is scum (for some reason you haven't stated yet) then find the remaining 1 then. Unless you think someone of Cephiro/chaoser/sandroba is town, in which case, again expand on it and find the remaining 3 scum. Dunno dude. Anyways, you say you'd be willing to discuss Wiggles, so let's discuss Wiggles. What exactly makes you think he's town? Here's his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=99050I checked and this is the only post where he states he thinks someone is scum or that he wants to lynch someone specific: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=22#440It was on VE. Check the rest of his filter, he is neutral as shit, and just "pressures" people but doesn't conclude anything. For instance these: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=50#1000http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=51#1002It may seem like he thinks Sheth is scum and is pressuring him...but he never says what he actually thinks of Sheth. He never goes around to press that issue again either, and then just goes with a totally unrelated question about sloosh. Wait: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=19#361Here it seems he is getting pumped against a scum Cephiro and has him against the ropes and is willing to lynch him right? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=26#513http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=39#764Oh wait... So please, if you think he's town then tell me exactly why you think he's town, in light of these things I told you. Original Message From prplhz: Palmar's list is a good starting point: Cephiro/chaoser/sandroba/Meapak_Ziphh/someone They were kind of my reads, I don't fully agree with all of them but I don't really have a better alternative. I just didn't like how he was attacked my plan because it was MY plan and MY reads 'cause it kind of wasn't even though it kinda was. I don't like Cephiro and sandroba didn't do anything yet. We can discuss Mr. Wiggles but really, I don't think that that list is very good. I'm town and I'm pretty sure that both slOosh and Palmar are town. Palmar and syllogism hydra'd with each other and they respect each other's play and they have really good read of each other. There was a nagging but very small doubt about their alignment in my mind before syllogism flipped but really, Palmar is almost certainly town. Oh, it's just that Meapak_Ziphh told me that everybody else was supporting his plan (except scum, Katina and myself). Original Message From gonzaw: So you think they are all town? Who do you think is scum then? I asked you for some reasoning behind your reads when you made that "plan" yesterday as well. You said you'd want to kill Sheth, chaoser and Meapak and they were "kind of your reads", but you never explained why. You never explained what you think of Cephiro and sandroba either if I recall correctly (if you did then point out where you did so). I think the remaining 2 scum are in the group of sloosh/prphlz/Wiggles/Palmar. I'm more suspicious of Wiggles than the rest, because even though he "looks" townie, he doesn't do anything. His filter is 2 pages long, and he hasn't called anyone scum in the whole game. He also called Cephiro "scummy", but then immediately said "he looks like bad town to me". How can you ignore that? What other "townie" thing did he do to make you think he's town in light of this? I'm thinking sloosh is town out of those, but I'm not sure about Palmar or you. Logic tells me that Palmar is most likely scum since it doesn't seem probable a whole scum team voted YES on D1, but by behaviour alone I think you are more likely scum than him. Anyways, I'm not "joining" up with Meapak's plan yet because he hasn't even explained it to me or talked to me. ET did PM me about it and told me the gist of it, and to be honest I agree. We need to get chaoser/sandroba/Cephiro into the majority and kill them ASAP, and that plan works. It was a plan ET/me/wbg/Katina did on D3 as well, so it's not like it's "crazy" or anything. Original Message From prplhz: They're all on the townie side. sloOsh because he replaced Radfield. Radfield looked really town, he was actively trying to organize town early on and seemed very frustrated with how people were just all going their separate ways and then he replaced out which is also a very townie thing to do. Palmar because syllogism says so. Well, primarily because syllogism says so, those two have impeccable reads on each other. Other than that he also looks townie enough to me, I think he looks a little more ... "directionless" as scum, like he doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to be doing. Mr. Wiggles is town because he kinda looks town. Dunno, that's a little weak but meh, he's not the scummiest around at all. Why are you joining up with Meapak_Ziphh and his crazy round A plan? That kinda makes me think that you're scum. Original Message From gonzaw: Wow everybody is asking me the same thing now. Check the thread. You know, I'd really like you to give more reads, thoughts and reasonings and all that shit if you can, specially your thoughts on sloosh/Wiggles/Palmar Original Message From prplhz:
Why did wherebugsgo think that Palmar was scum? I know he told you about this before he died and I'm quite curious here so can you please tell me
Thank you.
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round A Katina] +Original Message by Katina I talked to Wiggles a little. I've never heard anyone say he's been inactive. Is it unusual for him to only have 2 pages by day 4? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Was Wiggles active in PMs? Do you have proof of this? Although you can't call Wiggles active in the thread when his filter is 2 pages long in Day 4. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Katina: Okay I think Palmar is mafia. I have since the game began. He's not playing like he usually is. He's not aggressive or calling people retards. His day 1 plan only distracted the town. He doesn't call anyone mafia except sandroba. Radfield I thought was mafia. But both Foolishness and syllogism told me that sloosh was putting in an honest effort to help the town. They both thought sloosh was not mafia. And you do too so I'm thinking he is okay. Wiggles I lean towards town. prphlz I lean towards mafia. Someone was telling me that prphlz was town cause he was too out of the loop to be mafia. I think it was syllogism that said that. I don't really know. Wiggles has been active in PM and in thread it seems. Though not so much recently from what I know. Hard to say on both of them. Someone, wherebugsgo or Foolishness, was suspicious of Meapak before they died. Meapak's filter is a bit shady. He isn't actively trying to do stuff for the town. They were saying Meapak is an active town planner when he is town. And that's not what he's doing this game. But I agree with his mafia suspects. I think he's on the right track. Sorry I've had a stressful past few days so my memory on who is saying what is a bit fuzzy. x.x Original Message From gonzaw: Meapak hasn't told me the plan yet, but ET PMed me and did. It's the exact same thing we did last day. We have a group of N players, N/2 vote NO and N/2 vote YES (like you, me, ET and wbg did on D3). Yeah, the plan is good, should know about it since we agreed on it before >_> Anyways, I would like your opinion on these players: -sloosh -Palmar -Wiggles -prphlz I'm confident the remaining 2 scum are in that group. I think Wiggles is scum, I'll make a case later or something if he gets into the majority. I think sloosh is the most townie of them, so that leaves Palmar/prhlz for the remaining scum spot. I'm indecisive between those, because it makes sense that Palmar is scum, since there would be 2 scum in the minority of D1, if he wasn't scum then it would mean that on D1 a whole scum team voted YES. However, prphlz is just so scummy. He doesn't post reads, and when he "does" it's just him saying he wants to kill Sheth/chaoser/Meapak and they are "kind of his reads". He doesn't state any other reasoning either. Now he PMed me and told me that he thinks sloosh/Palmar/Wiggles are town (he was particularly wishy-washy about Wiggles), and said he thought I was scum because I was following Meapak's plan. After I called him out for such bullshit, he retracted and apparently doesn't think I'm scum anymore, and he still doesn't try to care about finding the remaining scum or even state his reasoning for thinking Meapak is scum. Anyways, what are your thoughts? Original Message From Katina:
Are you following Meapak? Do you know what his plan is?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak This is actually exactly how I feel. Prplhz isn't interested in working with us, that might change as we kill scum but either way, right now it's best that it's between us. I say we let Palmar live for now, we can actually use this as an opportunity to get him on board with us, I'll send him some "ideas" of where to put his votes and see how he responds. At this point he should be willing to deal with us since his filter indicates he wants the same people dead. The way I see it, ET, Sloosh, and I can all trade votes, you, katina and Palmar can pile on. I'd like to see us spread our votes (i.e. I give 2 to ET and 3 to sloosh or vice versa) this'll make it even harder for it to get screwed up if somehow one of us is scum. Chaoser and Wiggles need to die today. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I'm trying to get all vote claims together so we can organize this round better, here's the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdFVSanFOWmRKeXcxSGMxeXRNazNwZHc#gid=0I gave it to ET and Katina, no one else. I don't really want more people having it and risk it going on scum's hands (don't give it to prphlz for now). I thought we could get multiple scum lynched today. We don't really have another choice, since killing scum 1 by 1 will likely mean we'll lose consider scum have 2 KP. I thought we should let chaoser and Wiggles die, but I'm not too sure about Palmar. What do you think? At least we should try and get votes on you, sloosh and ET and get them to 10 votes (10 votes is the safe zone). Then we can see where the other vote claims are going and see what we do with Palmar, what do you think?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B sloosh] +By sloosh Chaoser for sure. Multi lynch will be tricky as scum can do whatever they want, but also scum teams will also target each other. I'm down for Wiggles lynch too, and if it works out we can pick out the last scum. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey.
I have a spreadsheet with all the votes, I want to coordinate between you, me, ET, Katina, MZ, etc the votes, or at least to get them in a record so we know what's happening.
PM me if you want to cast votes and I'll add them to the spreadsheet. We can discuss your votes and the votes of others as well.
For instance, I think we should have more than 1 lynch today. We know scum have 2 KP now, and there are 5 of them and 6 of us. Even if we lynch a single one of them, if they kill 2 of us it will be 4-4 and we will basically go downhill from there, specially if Ceph/sandro get into the minority again.
I was thinking of lynching Wiggles and chaoser today.
I'm not too sure about Palmar, but don't give him votes just yet
What do you think?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B ET] +By ET Hrmph, I just remembered that game recently (TL LII JubJub) where Palmar rolled scum and was quite wrong with a few reads (Node = scum, Caller = town, Kurumi = don't fcking no), so he can make mistakes. I could see scum using WIFOM: they shot multiple town leaders already; with Palmar one of the few legendary vets left alive, he looks worse by comparison. Imagine if it was Palmar shot instead of syllo; wouldn't we think syllo looked scummy by now? Regardless, him being alive D4 is very strange, WIFOM aside. I have no qualms with him being lynched. Anyways with sloosh, I'm down with keeping him alive (and I already sent in my votes lolz), but we need to decide soon if we're going to 3-lynch or 2-lynch. Honestly I've thought Wiggles was town for a while, but if you guys have a consensus on him then I'm alright with that, and MZ's case on him is pretty good. Now that I think about it, aiming for a 3-lynch might be better, because if we aim for a 3-lynch, even if scum save one of them from the lynch, we'll still have two on the docket. I imagine that if we aim for a 2-lynch, we might only end up with 1 lynch because of the uncertainty of scum actions. I'm going to dig harder into prplhz and sloosh later on; I feel like there's something to be found between those two, but for now I'm feeling alright with today's plan. Sleeping now for final tomorrow, let me know how things develop. When did mz gain all of his boldness lol? I've been leaning town on him, but didn't rly expect him to come out this strong. And yes, your spreadsheet is sxc :3 Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I'm always unsure about sloosh on "big" games. He just doesn't contribute as much as I'd like to, or at least not as much as he did in Newbie games. Though he PMs me and seems to care about the game now. I'm finding him more townie than say prphlz. He seems to care more. Considering there are 2 scum remaining (I really hope so, if one of sandro/chaoser/Cephiro was actually town I'll jump off a bridge or something), I see other people more scummy than him. He seems to put some effort too, so even if we have some doubts he shouldn't really be a lynch candidate today, at least not if we want utter chaos and shit. Oh, I didn't give him the spreadsheet though, so don't worry about that. I gave the spreadsheet to you, MZ and Katina, no one else. About the mafia families: The way I see it, the Yokoya are more likely to hit the Harimoto's. If chaoser was in BC's team (yokoya), perhaps Harimoto will try to get him lynched too or something so they don't waste their KP on them instead. But really, I don't really want to gamble on this. All it takes is for both scum teams to cooperate or something by shooting 2 townies tonight and we are doomed. I mean, obviously lynching 1 scum is better than nothing, but even now it's not that great, we need to take some chances. The thing we have that scum don't is knowledge. We know where the votes will be, or at least where our votes and hopefully some other claims we get. We also know who we will decide to lynch. For instance, imagine we decide to lynch Palmar as well. We won't tell it in the thread nor tell Palmar/Wiggles/etc on PMs either. Both scum teams (I assume you, MZ and Katina are town for now, if not...let's not speak of this) won't know who we will decide to lynch and therefore won't know where to put their votes. If both scumteams feel the same, we have a slight advantage, and we can get lucky with both scumteams voting badly and netting us 2 or even 3 lynches. So there's a chance this may work. Yeah, those scenarios don't look too good. But I'm confident there are at least 2 scum in chaoser/Wiggles/Palmar so those odds look better. Anyways, okay I'll send Katina/sloosh that partial voting list (I already sent MZ that one) Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: Hrmm... overall I think sloosh looks worse than Palmar, as Palmar has actually done a number of things and syllo was very sure of him being town, whereas sloosh has basically done nothing. But, I can see where they are coming from. Sloosh was a replacement, and I guess he hasn't been downright scummy. The special thing about Palmar (similar to Foolishness) is that their reads are pretty freaking accurate. That Palmar pushed VE, Ace, and Sheth hard to be lynched is a black mark in his book. Yes, I (and WBG/you to some extent) pushed those reads too, but Palmar isn't usually that sloppy. Remember Foolishness in Aperture? He instantly sniped Dirk Hardpec as scum, and methodically took out everyone else. Though Palmar does have an asshole style, this pattern of being wrong is pretty strange, and the fact that he hasn't written a long analytical post, for the most part, is also troubling. What has sloosh done to make you consider him townie? --- On the balance of power, remember that scum have to eliminate the other faction to gain their win condition. It's WIFOM, but I think scum will begin to be shot at night, esp. Yokoya shooting Harimto, b/c otherwise that faction will gain disproportionate power (voting power +kp). Regardless, if we think we can snipe out these scum, let's do it. I kind of forgot that this game was a mini, and that we've essentially reached LYLO. I think I would moreso support a 2 lynch if we are less sure, and a 3-lynch if we are more sure. Scenarios Assuming scum 2shot town at night: 2-lynch (2scum hit) - we will be at 4-3 after night. Good outcome. 2-lynch (1scum1town hit) - we will be at 3-4 after night. Bad, but not game over. 2-lynch (2 town hit) - let's not speak of this 3-lynch (3scum hit) - we will be at 4-2 after night. Great scenario. 3-lynch (2scum1town hit) - we will be 3-3 after night. Decent outcome. 3-lynch (1scum2town hit) - we will be 2-4 after night. GG NORE 3-lynch (3 town hit) - let's not speak of this Basically, 3-lynch has higher risk higher reward (1 great, 1 OK, 2 terrible), whereas 2-lynch has a smaller spread of outcomes (1 good, 1 semi-bad, 1 terrible). For now, I do agree with sending in the partial votes just so we can get things organized ASAP and not be offguard. I will send in my partial votes as you have laid out, tell the others and add it to your PPT after you receive confirmation from them. Original Message From gonzaw: I was wary of a multilynch as well last day, but I don't think we have a choice. Here: Scum have currently 2 KP, and I assume they have 1 KP each night barring something weird happening (like what happened on D1-D2 with 1 kill each). Currently we are at 6-5 (scum are combined). If we lynch only 1 of them, then it will be 6-4, but their 2 KP, if it's aimed at town (and I'm kind of sure it will), will reduce us to 4-4. It will either be 4-3-1 or 4-2-2. We are kind of screwed there, scum as a whole has the same voting power as we have. If we lynch a Yokoya today, then there will basically be as many Harimoto's as town, and if we don't lynch the remaining Yokoya that day we basically lose with that 2 KP. Of course maybe the scum teams will fight each other or something, but we still can't risk that. So we desperately need to get 1, 2 or maybe even 3 scum lynched (if all chaoser/Wiggles/Palmar are scum). About the plan: Someone is safe from the lynch with 10 votes (55/6 rounded up). So we need to get you, MZ and sloosh at 10 votes first of all. I'll try to force Wiggles and Palmar to claim their votes to have them accountable, so at least if they fuck us up they will out themselves as scum. Ceph's votes can't be accounted (since he will do what he pleases), but I don't know about sandroba. prphlz told me something like "sandroba is always asking me how to vote" or something (if I remember correctly). I'll try to get prphlz to tell me what sandro will vote if sandro claims to him, so at least we can get his votes accounted for (if he does claim his votes to prphlz, I doubt he'll change them too much, if not he wouldn't claim them in the first place). If that doesn't happen, then well we'll have to keep him as unaccounted for. The problem I find is that I'm not sure if they'll not vote for Wiggles either. We keep this discussion about the votes secret between us, so scum won't know if we'll give Wiggles 5 votes or not. Imagine Ceph and sandro are in different scumteams, Ceph and give chaoser votes, while sandro can give Wiggles votes. I'm still not too sure if Cephiro belongs to the same scum team as chaoser. I said it yesterday that he may have given him 5 votes to "frame" him of sorts. It's possible he won't give him votes either, so I don't know if we can take that into account. What do you think about Palmar ET? sloosh, Katina and MZ are very suspicious of him (well, MZ at least until he had that breakdown were he instantly thought Palmar was town somehow), and I'm having my doubts as well. Also, maybe we should send votes right now, at least partially. I asked Protact the other day and you are allowed to send partial votes (like just sending 3 of them). We'll try to get all 3 of you to 10 by using them first. Like, I take 3 votes of mine and vote you, MZ and sloosh. You take 3 votes and use 2 on sloosh and 1 on MZ MZ takes 3 votes and uses 2 on you and 1 on sloosh sloosh takes 3 votes and uses 2 on MZ and 1 on you Katina takes the 3 votes and uses them on you three. Right there the votes will be like: MZ-5 ET-5 sloosh-5 I'll try and get prphl to take 3 of his votes as well and give to each one of you. That way you guys are GUARANTEED to have at least 6 votes for now. Depending on what other claims (perhaps from Wiggles/Palmar) we see which one of you has less votes and we use our "backup" 2 votes on that one. I think that may be a good start, if you agree I'll tell them to do that for now. Original Message From EchelonTee: sigh.. I'm getting so sick of hearing Cephiro spout bullshit. "oh, WBG your scum! you lynch townies! blah blah blah! I was right about Ace and VE! Trololol! Listen to me deride everyone!" fuck I just want him dead, now. I'm wary about a multi-lynch unless we are pretty sure on our targets, and can have full coordination with votes. I'm most on board with Chaoser, after revieweing people's cases and looking at him myself. The problem is if his scummate is one of the people already under heavy suspicion (Cephiro/sandroba), they have nothing to lose by just 5 voting Chaoser, as happened last cycle. We would have to do something like this: Assuming we want Chaoser/Wiggles to die: 11 People alive, 55 votes total chaoser - 5 from Cephiro (probably) EchelonTee - at least 6 Meapak_Ziphh - at least 6 Mr. Wiggles - 5 exactly Palmar - at least 6 slOosh - at least 6 That's 34 votes, leaving us with 21 leeway. That honestly isn't the worst. Trying to maximize survivability: chaoser - 5 from Cephiro (probably) EchelonTee - 11 Meapak_Ziphh - 10 Mr. Wiggles - 5 exactly Palmar - 10 slOosh - 9 With 5 votes leftover since Chaoser won't claim to us. Chaoser can't vote for himself, so as long as no one else votes for him, he will definitely die. Also, if he 5 votes anyone else, it won't significantly alter anything. Doing a vote distribution like this should ensure that there won't be a mass townie slaughter, and even if scum teams coordinate they shouldn't be able to drastically alter the votes. The problem with this is coordinating WHO we want to kill, and accounting for people who won't claim their votes. Thoughts? Original Message From gonzaw: Kay, here is the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdFVSanFOWmRKeXcxSGMxeXRNazNwZHc#gid=0Would you agree to try and get a multilynch? Let's get the votes to lynch chaoser and Wiggles. Maybe palmar, although I'm not to sure about it. We need to get votes on you, MZ and sloosh first though, would you agree? I'll try to get vote claims from prph/sloosh/etc and put them in the spreadsheet, and maybe we can organize something
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak Here's prplhz PMs: (PMs) Sorry about the delay, TL is doing this weird crash thing for me so I'm running it off a cached version. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah I'd like those PMs with prphlz. I had some weird PMs with him as well. He basically admitted he just sheeped wbg/syllo and didn't have any reads whatsoever, and keeps reassuring he is "bad" and "newbie" and keeps apologizing. Anyways, yeah try to get Palmar to claim votes to you, at least so he can be accountable for his votes. Also, ignore that PM I sent you moments ago, since you just answered that in this one >_> Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: This plan looks good, I basically just PM'd you a similar idea in terms of splitting votes which makes me feel even better about it. idk about Palmar, I read through his filter and tried to make a case on him and realized I couldn't. That's when I had a mini panic attack. Palmar may still be scum, however he's now in a position where he has to work with us or go against his reads he's had the whole game. If he suddenly backs out then yeah he's scum, however at the moment I feel like we can use his votes to fill in the hole left by prplhz. Also prplhz is acting retarded, I can give you my recent PMs with him if you like. With the current teams arranged the way they are I have a hard time believing he's scum but his play has been horrendous. He's my likely substitute for Palmar atm. Again, the whole Palmar thing was brought on by realizing that I had no case against him other than WBG's PM, and I'm not dumb enough to just blindly go off of that. Original Message From gonzaw:
I've come up with a little "pre-plan", and talked to ET about it and he agreed
We should give 3 of our votes away right now. I asked Protact before and it's possible, you just PM 3 names, and then afterwards you PM the remaining 2. That is so we can get the votes on you, sloosh and ET ASAP-
They should go like this:
-Me and Katina put 1 vote on sloosh, 1 on you and 1 on ET
-You put 2 votes on ET and 1 on sloosh
-sloosh puts 2 votes on you and 1 on ET
-ET puts 2 votes on sloosh and 1 on you
There each 3 of you will have at least 5 votes already, and then we save each of our 2 votes for later (not later as in right before the deadline, but at least until we get more vote claims perhaps).
We need the 3 of you to reach 10 votes first.
I think we need to just do that, and let Palmar/Wiggles/chaoser die, or at least Wiggles and chaoser.
If we don't give scum the spreadsheet they won't really know what we are planning (they won't know if we plan on giving Palmar votes for instance) so they can't exactly plan what votes to give, and if we are lucky we could get 2 scum lynched.
Also, what's with your sudden "revelation" that Palmar is town? You haven't responded to that post I made in the thread.
If Palmar is really scum with Wiggles and sandroba, then I don't see what's the deal, since Palmar never mentioned Wiggles at all, and I think he mentioned sandroba like 2 times and only said things like "oh yeah and sandroba needs to die...anyways Cephiro is scum/chaoser is scum/BC is scum". It makes sense Palmar would not be on a same team with Cephiro, chaoser or BC; but I don't get why you had that outburst out there
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B sloosh] +To: Protactinium [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: Liar Game D4PB Vote Date: 5/11/12 05:09 2 Meapak, 1 EchelonTee. Will send 2 more by deadline. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yes you are allowed, I asked Protact that the other day and he said we are. Original Message by sloosh I haven't - are we allowed to send parts at a time? Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, ET, me and Meapak have been talking about letting all 3 die as well in a 3-way lynch, since it's more likely at least 2 of them will die. Okay then, have you sent your 2 votes to MZ and 1 to ET yet? I'll update the spreadsheet then Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: Sounds good. As for Palmar I wouldn't mind him dead. He really hasn't done anything even after syllo or WBG died, and he somehow has a town read on Wiggles in PM land that he isn't revealing in thread despite Wiggles being a serious lynch candidate, nor is he putting any effort in thread. Even if he were pulling strings in PM land, it would have to be with one of us 5 (since it makes no sense to PM your scum reads beside figuring alignment) - townies would be PMing townies to consolidate votes, and I haven't gotten a single PM from him. Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey. I've come up with a little plan for now and ET and MZ are on it.
Each 5 of us (me, you, ET, MZ and Katina) should give away 3 votes like this:
-Me and Katina put 1 vote on you, 1 on MZ and 1 on ET
-MZ puts 2 votes on ET and 1 on you
-You put 2 votes on MZ and 1 on ET
-ET puts 2 votes on you and 1 on MZ
That way, all 3 of you will have 5 votes already and can't have less at any moment. Also, all 5 of us will still have 2 remaining votes to use as we please for the remainder of the day. For instance if there are some claims (from prphl for instance) that give MZ 3 votes, then we use our 2 votes we kept to give you and ET more votes.
ET and MZ are already voting like that, and I just Pmed Katina the same
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak ET went to sleep as well T_T. I'm not opposed to that, however it'll HAVE to be between just us, Palmar hasn't PM'd me back yet but there's no way he'll work with us if he know's he's getting killed lol. We'll have to arrange it somehow so that he thinks we're voting for him. This is all dependent on him agreeing to work with us, if he doesn't, killing people will be harder but we won't have to work with him. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, I've been talking to ET and we think that a 3-way lynch it's better for now.
For instance, imagine scum give their votes to save chaoser, then it's likely both Wiggles and Palmar will die with 0 votes. Same if they choose to save Wiggles or Palmar.
If we decide a 2-way lynch, then it's likely we'll only get 1 of them lynched depending on what scum does.
Do you agree with this? If so then we can just start organizing all of our votes into you, ET and sloosh so you can arrive to 10 votes as soon as possible, what do you think?
Anyways, I'm going to sleep, so you can discuss with ET if you have doubts and shit
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B ET trying to save Wiggles] +By ET Got hold of a laptop. There are a number of things: 1. I thought Wiggles was town for a while, it's just been my read. I posted why on D1. 2. Attention shifted swiftly and suddenly to him; I find that strange. It's exactly how I mislynched wiggles in jubjub; Wiggles does his semi-contributing wishywashy style, and people jump on him like hounds. He's been more open then Palmar, in any case. 3. He knew that he was on deck to be lynched because of WBG's plan/list; tbh, the way he reacted is the same way I did (are those PMs real? are they corroroborated?), except Wiggles posted them in thread. The only thing I find especially fishy about Wiggles is how he is ignoring chaoser. But then again, Palma is also ignoring Wiggles. I admit that wiggles isnt a paragon of towniness but the lynch on him feels like a mislynch. I think it's going to be very hard to get a multi lynch. I highly doubt any scum will be left at 0 votes. Honestly I think the best course of action is to max votes on Sloosh, myself, and M_Z. I think it will be likely that Chaoser and Palmar will get 5 voted if it looks like they are being left for the lynch. If we want Wiggles to die, then we give him no votes, if we want him to live we give him 6. I'm concerned that if we leave Wiggles at 0, then chaoser and Palmar will not die. The ULTIMATE goal of today is to get chaoser lynched, as he is our most assured town read. To that end, if you want to make it seem as though Wiggles is still on deck to be lynched, then we can discreetly put 6 votes on wiggles and get chaoser or palmar lynched. Sorry if this is haphazard, I'm rushing this post. Just, the most important thing is getting chaoser lynched. Palmar and Wiggles are trying this turn in some regard; it's obviously clear that chaoser has given up and is hoping for a save from a scumbuddy. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I agree about lynching Palmar and chaoser, but why not Wiggles?
What changed your mind?
Yes, he made a good case against Palmar, but he's against the ropes and it's the only thing he can do.
When Round B started he didn't do anything, he just asked 10 questions about "Is Meapak telling the truth about wbg" and things. He didn't have a single interest in the lynch until he realized he'd be lynched himself, and now he's "utterly" convinced Palmar is scum all of a sudden.
Why wasn't he convinced Palmar was scum before? Why did he just started making a case and have a strong opinion on someone as soon as he's decided as the lynch? And why doesn't he even mention chaoser?
Yes, sloosh's accusation against him wasn't that good though, although it's irrelevant. I don't care about Wiggles "communicating" with the other scum team in that post or discussing KP and misslynches, I care about his actions towards scumhunting and trying to win the game for town.
His sudden outburst doesn't feel too townie to me. Why did he have such a "good" case against Palmar but never presented it or acknowledged it before? Why did he never even mention Palmar as scummy before either? There is something fishy there.
I think it is possible chaoser and Wiggles are in the same team, which is why they are ignoring each other and try to kill Palmar; while Palmar is in the other team.
Don't know how Cephiro and sandro fit into this though, perhaps its BC+Cephiro+Wiggles and chaoser+sandro+Palmar or something, although I'm not too sure and I don't want to make unnecessary assumptions.
EDIT: Also, Companion Cube is Wiggles. Remember Aperture?
I seriously thought Companion cube was Wiggles at that point >_>
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Calming ET down] +By ET bleh I guess you're right, I didn't considr that we wouldn't be able to coordinate votes that well. This is rly tough without good townie partcipation. guess we ensure our survival and see how things play out Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I think we only have 15 votes accounted for right now. Ehmm, check my other post. I don't really want to risk any of you guys being below 9 or 8 votes for now. We can't bump WIggles to 6 and Palmar to 3-4 if that means we spend all our remaining 10 votes. Try to convince prphlz to give Palmar as few votes as possible. Maybe PM him that we will lynch chaoser alone so he should give us votes, and tell him to claim votes to you. I'm going to uni right now so I won't be able to do this either. I'll PM Meapak and tell him to convince prphlz to give us votes instead of putting 5 on Palmar or something. You say things like "pop us 3 another 3 votes" and stuff, and you say there will be 47 votes accounted for. ...and where are chaosers, sandroba's and Palmar's votes? Those are 15 votes, which means at most there can be 40 accounted votes. Or even 35 if Wiggles doesn't share them either. Just tell Palmar/Wiggles to pump all 5 votes on the 3 of you if they want to survive or something, perhaps they'll listen. Anyways, I'll leave Meapak some instructions, and I'll come back 1 or 2 hours before the deadline as well. Hide nested quote -
Original Message From EchelonTee:
We need to get chaoser lynched.
Lets assume he gets 5 votes from cephiro. We've already spent 18 of our votes on us 3.
23 votes accounted for.
Let's say we want to bump wiggles to 6, to ensure that chaoser gets lynched over him. If you want, we could put him at 5 but I really think we shouldn't lynch him.
29 votes accounted for.
Bump us 3 another 3 votes a pop to keep things safe.
38 votes accounted for.
We need to figure out what prplhz will do. My plan (and what I've made it seem like in thread) is that I want a single lynch on chaoser. We could deceive prplhz as such so that he'll spend votes on us, but we don't know what he will really do. let's just guess he puts 2 votes on Palmar and 1 on each of us.
43 votes accounted for.
That leaves us 3 at 8 a piece, chaoser at 5, Wiggles a 6, Palmar at 2.
We then can put 2-4 votes on Palmar depending on what we went
47 votes accounted for.
Organize remaining votes to ensure chaoser lynch/ us not lynched/ maybe a multi lynch.
Make it happen, brudder.
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B sloosh] +By sloosh Ok, sending in so total of 3 MZ and 2 ET. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, we need to get you, MZ and ET to 10 votes first. Would you give your remaining 2 votes to MZ and ET? 1 to MZ and 1 to ET? Original Message by sloosh I need some help making sense of this mess. http://i.imgur.com/jRYZP.pngHard red / Green = confirmed flips, soft red/green are what they say they think. As with prplhz (since we eventually have to figure him out): D3&4 Round A shows both Cephiro and Sandroba in the minority. This leads me to believe there are three scum in the majority. I'm less inclined to think prplhz is scum because he is in minority with them, which means a team did 2-1 including ceph/sandro in majority twice, which I don't see as possible. He is listening to Palmar, and having reviewed Palmar's reads myself they are pretty consistent with voting patterns except he thinks katina is scum, which I'm having a hard time believing based on what Foolishness said about her. I'll be trying to PM prplhz to see more. Anyways, I'm down for chaoser lynch, still thinking about which of Wiggles / Palmar is scum (or both as I can see how this elaborate bus is happening where they will get town cred / drag the other scum team into this). Whatever you guys decide, I'm cooperating.
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Katina] +By Katina Okay. So I sent in 2 to ET and sloosh. 1 to Meapak Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, would you give your 2 votes right now? We need to get sloosh, ET and MZ to 10 votes ASAP before the deadline gets here, if not we run the risk of Wiggles+Palmar doing some weird shit and getting one of you lynched.
Since MZ already has 9 votes, I asked sloosh to give him 1, so you should give 1 vote to ET and 1 to sloosh, okay?
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B ET] +By ET
wiggles said he would put votes on us 3, and I asked him to put more votes on me than the others.
Palmar said 3 votes on MZ, 2 on sloosh or something like that.
Unless they are lying, us 3 are mostly in the clear.
I say give each of us 1 more, then put 6 votes on Wiggles. I'm saving my votes for that purpose.
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B me trying to save chaoser (…] +By ET alright. glhf mate Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah that sounds okay, I'll send my votes now and update the spreadsheet. Oh I'll PM MZ as well Also I'm going to eat now so I won't be able to do shit until the deadline Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I guess that's alright. At the end of the day, the reason why we couldn't pull this off correctly is because prplhz suddenly decided to not work with us. I told wiggles to 2voteSloosh, 1voteMZ, 2voteET, which should put us at 10/10/9. MZ gives 1voteSloosh,1voteET. Then we will be at 11/10/10. We will be fully in the clear. Then I give 2 votes to wiggles, you give 1 to MZ and 1 to Wiggles. OK? Original Message From gonzaw: Well, either way you'll have to feel like a douche since we can't give him a full 6 votes. I still think Wiggles is scum, and I don't want to save him. prphlz fucked up our plans to get Palmar lynched, but we can still get both Wiggles and chaoser lynched. We need to speculate how many votes chaoser would get though. Last time Cephiro gave chaoser 5 votes, but remember that he did so to get Sheth lynched, and because he knew Sheth gave MZ 5 votes. Right now hopefully scum don't know how the votes are. If prphlz is not scumbuddies with chaoser/Cephiro, then chaoser/Cephiro won't know how many votes Palmar will get. I doubt they think Palmar will get 5 votes either (again if Palmar isn't on their team). Even if that's the case, there's no guarantee Cephiro will even give chaoser 5 votes, or even 4. I know if we leave Wiggles at 0 he will definitely die and chaoser will live, but if we give Wiggles 5 votes then there's a chance Wiggles will live, AND there's the chance things get fucked up and MZ or you/sloosh get lynched. Something like 2-3 votes to give to Wiggles will be fine I think. There will be a higher chance chaoser dies with him, and in the event chaoser doesn't receive more votes than 3 chaoser will get killed instead. I say we do this, you give your 2 votes to Wiggles, and me and MZ give the remaining votes to you/sloosh/MZ, or I give 1 more vote to Wiggles. What do you think? Whatever happens though, we need to figure out wtf is up with prphlz and we need to get Palmar lynched later. Also, I doubt MZ will give Wiggles any votes, and I don't plan to convince him otherwise. Original Message From EchelonTee: gimme a sec, thinking things out. I feel like a douche but I guess it has to be like that. The thing is if we do things like this I feel like Wiggles is the only one who will die. If you think he has a good chance of flipping scum then OK I guess, but if we give him 0 votes I highly doubt that chaoser will also get 0 votes. I agreed to give wiggles 6 votes in return for us controlling his votes but I did say I would try, no guarantees. I just feel bad about that. Original Message From gonzaw: We need to tell him to spread his votes, so he can't do something weird. Palmar said he put 3 votes on Meapak and didn't spread his votes, which makes me uneasy. If he makes a gambit and is a little bit lucky, he can get MZ lynched. Anyways, Katina and sloosh already claimed their 2 remaining votes, so now we need to figure out what to do with our own votes. I don't think we should give Wiggles 6 votes. That means one of you guys will have less than 10 votes and not be safe (considering chaoser/Palmar/Wiggles will be at 5 or so votes without taking into account chaosers and sandros, or someone else lying about them). Also, just to be safe so we don't run out of time, tell Wiggles to vote now. EHmm, something like this: 2 votes to you (ET), 2 to sloosh and 1 to MZ. That will leave sloosh and MZ with 10, but you on 9. One of us (MZ and me) will give you 1 vote, and then we see what to do with the rest. Sounds okay? Original Message From EchelonTee: Yeah, for now. He has 5 open votes. I don't think he will openly lie about his votes or else he's claiming scum. He would only do it to fulfill some gambit. Original Message From gonzaw: Oh alright. I thought Wiggles had already voted, so if he said he voted ET, sloosh and MZ, at least he would have given 1 vote each. I should take his votes out then? Original Message From EchelonTee: Wiggles hasn't sent in his votes yet, I said that I would PM him what to vote before deadline, because I told him that I would try and get 6 votes on him. Wait, looking at your spreadsheet, it says that Wiggles claimed 3 votes? Original Message From gonzaw:
Yeah nevermind, MZ is at 9 now, so I told sloosh to give him one to get him to 10.
That means that I'll tell Katina to give you and sloosh 1 vote, not MZ
+ Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak Told Wiggles to vote ET and me, sorry if this contradicted your plan. Hope he's sent in his votes, should I tell him to disregard? Need to read all PMs before responding :/ Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Give 1 vote to sloosh and 1 to ET.
We decided that we'll give Wiggles 3 votes, since it's more likely chaoser will get some votes of his own. That way we can get both of them killed (we'll need to be lucky, but there's nothing else we can do).
If you still have doubts check the spreadsheet, I'm updating the votes (and Wiggles supposed votes that ET will tell him to vote) as well.
+ Show Spoiler [N4 Meapak] +By Meapak
It'll be interesting to see if the scum team with only 1 person tries to shoot into the other team tonight. Either way I have a feeling I'll be dead. At this point we just gotta stick together and keep on carrying on. I'd pair up again like last time. prpl might actually be scum pending on whether he'll work with our circle now that we've killed a scum. Cephiro and sandroba really need to die. Wiggles probably needs to die as well, the only other alternative is that Katina is scum but that seems really unlikely given how good foolishness's reads were (chaoser is another clutch of feathers in his hat). Also she's worked with us without complaint.
Also I was right about chaoser being on the same team as BC, I bet that's why cephiro is so butt hurt right now, because I absolutely destroyed his team
+ Show Spoiler [N4 ET] +By ET K; I'm desparately hoping that Yokoya shoot into the other scum family out of spite or something like that, otherwise me, you and MZ are on deck to be pewpew'd =/ I'm going to prepare a phat post of all my thoughts tonight, but here's a rough sketch of my reads. Strong town gonzaw M_Z Leaning town Wiggles Katina Need to be scrutinized prplhz sloosh Strong scumread Palmar Sandroba Cephiro Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, I'm going to my dad's house to stay for the night today, and I won't be around for the Night flip.
If I die, make sure to try and organize the votes to get Cephiro and sandro lynched at all costs if they get into the majority, and Wiggles or Palmar depending on who is in the majority as well.
Also, I will come back on Saturday kind of late, so if I still live I won't be around to plan the Round A votes, so if you guys plan something just PM me what to vote and I'll vote that when I come home.
If you make a spreadsheet with votes, I'd say you should only share it with the one that's still alive of me and MZ, just in case, alright?
+ Show Spoiler [N4 ET] +By ET
Strong town
gonzaw-too constructive to be scum, hammered cephiro early
M_Z-came out strong D3; there was no reason for him to do this, town was stagnating as it was. The only weird thing is suddenly shifting his opinion on Palmar, but changing mind on someone within a very short period of time is actually a town tell
Leaning town
Wiggles-though he only pushed palmar when pressed on it, I agree with his read a lot. I doubt he would've done that as Palmar's scum buddy, and there's no way he's Yokoya. has been fairly open for most of game
Katina- though people say her style "sucks", I find it to be pretty forthright and clear. The problem is that her as scum looks a lot like this; though overall she looks good, she could be a very hidden scum. Watch out for.
Need to be scrutinized
prplhz- has been acting very strange lately. saved palmar, uncooperative. He's not scum just for not talking to us a lot, but he seems to have a complete disinterest in scumhunting, and is strangely "sure" of Palmar being scum. He should be at the least uncertain in some ways.
sloosh- you say he's been good in PMs; based only on thread, I don't see him doing anything, and I'm used to him being more diplomatic. D2 SOAF, he was a lot better than this, remember? This is a toughie.
Strong scumread
Palmar - Palmar's D4 results for reads - Ace-mislynch. VE-mislynch, Sheth-mislynch, BC-bandwagoned, chaoser-bandwagoned. harps on Katina and others for little to no reason. He stopped being very constructive after D2/3
Sandroba- has completely stopped making reads, and lied to prplhz about where he was going to vote, lied about last nights vote. either he's completely and utterly given up, or more likely he is scum
Cephiro-he's probably yokoya who did WIFOM to try and live, by not voting chaoser; he's had a million chances to be townie
+ Show Spoiler [D5 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak Ugh prpl is making me nervous. I'm out for much of today, tell me how to vote and I'll send it in from my phone. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Don't post the chart in the thread or give it to anyone else.
If scum get hold of it, then they can just fuck it up as much as they can since anyone can edit it. Even more if you post it in the thread and they can do it anonymously
+ Show Spoiler [D5 Round A ET] +By ET Wiggles/Sandroba already voted yes. If you want them to die, we can force them into majority. Sandroba might be lying, but I doubt Wiggles is. Cephiro might vote No anyways. I say we either do a full split, or force Yes to be the majority with the chance to hit Sandroba/Wiggles. Full Split: gonzaw/ET MZ/Katina Wiggles/sloosh Palmar/prplhz Force yes: gonzaw/ET/sloosh vote yes MZ/Katina vote No. which one? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
So...how do we vote right now?
I think I'm going out in a couple of hours, so if we are going to plan something with lots of players then it has to be fast
+ Show Spoiler [D5 Round A ET] +By ET I sent everyone this PM: Hey, we're going to slightly stack Yes to try and get Wiggles/Sandroba killed. Votes as such: gonzaw/ET/sloosh vote yes MZ/Katina vote No. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I think I'll vote YES.
If sandro/Wiggles say the truth it will be great to get them into the majority, at least to kill sandro alone if you want to let Wiggles alone for now.
I don't know how you guys want to vote though, if you want to split or not. Maybe we can "imply" in the thread that we'll be voting NO or something, so more scum are inclined to vote YES, but I don't know how that would work.
+ Show Spoiler [D5 Round B ET] +By ET Mmm, we might've stacked too many votes into yes TBH, but it worked out. I'll be active again in a few hours. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Fuck Yeah!
We can lynch both sandro and Cephiro today, or at least one of them.
We can even let Wiggles live one more day, just so nothing weird can happen and we kill only sandro and Ceph today.
We need to come up with the votes though, there are 7 players up for the lynch, yet only 50 votes in total.
That means that each player is safe with 8 votes, so we should just get all of us to 8 first.
I'll make another spreadsheet, and link it to you and MZ
+ Show Spoiler [D5 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak Perfect, let's do this. It'll make it super concrete and ensure the correct people die. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I think I've come up with a plan for the votes. Here it's the PM I sent ET about it: Hide nested quote -
I'm trying to come up with the voting pattern thing in the spreadsheet, check it if you want.
The point is this:
We should try to get every player, barring Cephiro and sandroba (whose votes are unaccounted for), to give each other votes so each one arrives at 8 votes.
Those are: Mr Wiggles, me, sloosh, Katina, Meapak, you, prplhz and Palmar. 8 people, with 5 votes, meaning 40 votes total.
There are 5 people to "save": Mr Wiggles, me, sloosh, you and prplhz.
If those 40 votes go to those 5 people, then each will have 8 votes.
Imagine somehow Cephiro gives his 5 votes to sandro, and sandro gives his 5 votes to Cephiro. Then they would have 5 votes each.
Now, we assume the rest of the players will go through their part of the deal and vote accordingly. This would mean that Ceph+sandro would have 5 votes each and get lynched, while the other players would have 8 votes each and be safe.
But what happens if one of those that were supposed to contribute to the 40 votes to get each one of us 8 votes, decides to just out himself as scum and fuck with us?
He can give, for instance 3 votes to sandro and 2 votes to Cephiro. That would put sandro at 8 votes and safe from the lynch, and Cephiro at 7 votes.
Since he had to put votes on someone else to get him to 8, then it means at least 1 player will have less than 8 votes.
If he has less than 7, he will get lynched alone. If he has exactly 7, he will be lynched along Cephiro.
So there's a chance that a single scum outside of Cephiro/sandro can out himself to save those 2 and get 1 or more other players lynched.
If sandro is Yokoya, then there would be Cephiro plus 2 unknown scum in the other scum team. 1 of those can out himself if it means he can lynch sandro plus a whole lot of townies with 7 votes.
Just in case I want to plan the votes to counteract that, so at least 2 other scum have to out themselves to lynch someone, or that if 1 scum outs himself to save sandro/Ceph, then at least you or me won't be the lynch.
I thought that maybe we can have Katina, me, you and Meapak give us 2 all the votes necessary to achieve 8 votes. I doubt one of us is scum, and if he were I doubt he would just out himself right now by getting 1 of us lynched.
Then I thought about having Palmar/Wiggles/sloosh/etc to give the votes to the remaining players in batches of 2 and 3 votes. That way if any of those decide to "out" themselves to save sandro/Ceph, at least they would get one of that pool of players lynched and not me/you. What do you think? Look at the spreadsheet if it confuses you (I'll try to complete it now that I'm at it)
+ Show Spoiler [D5 Round B ET] +By ET Yeah... I could only see him doing that if they decided to collaborate or something. Won't help them anyways. My theory on the night kills is that it's something akin to SOAF. Each scum team gets to choose a number of people that they would like to kill, and if they both choose the same people, that person dies. I don't know how they would calculate how many people get to be chosen, but it would make sense why some nights there are kills, sometimes multiple, and sometimes none. It also encourages scum team coordination, similar to how town has to cooperate to get things done. Up a creek with no paddle = expression for I am completely screwed, for my final, that is. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Wut? Yeah, there's is not much to do anyways, just wait until Cephiro/sandro die. I really hope Cephiro doesn't actually give votes to sandro (why would he save someone from the other scumteam?) and we kill them both, that would be sweet. Then again, maybe he does give him votes just so we WIFOM about it later :/ Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I got a final tomorrow and am up a gdam creek with no paddle; I sent in my votes tho. I have a feeling Cephiro lied about his votes, so I hope we can get a double kill. be back tomorrow; I also hope today's flip/tonights kills shed more light on the current game scenario. Original Message From gonzaw:
What do you think about Cephiro's vote claim on sandro?
If sandro is Yokoya and Cephiro is not, then it wouldn't make much sense, unless 1 or more other scum out themselves to give Cephiro more than 5 votes.
If sandro is Yokoya, I think it's most likely Cephiro is bluffing. He is lying and won't vote sandro at all. Maybe he does this so we think "Crap, Cephiro will give sandro 5 votes, the only way to lynch both of them is to give Cephiro 5 votes".
So then we give Cephiro 5 votes, yet Cephiro wouldn't actually give sandro a single vote, effectively killing sandro and surviving himself.
Either that or he's scumbuddies with sandro and he's protecting him somehow (maybe sandro has a role or something).
Either way, I think I prefer Cephiro dying. First of all he will stop shitting the thread with his dickish behaviour.
Second, he's very likely Harimoto (or the other scum team) and not Yokoya.
If we leave the remaining Yokoya alive, then he'll have 1 KP to use. Maybe he uses it on a townie, but hopefully he uses it on the other scum team and may even help us.
Whatever the case, killing the other scum team is a priority to be honest, we can't afford to be 4-3 with the other scum team at all.
What do you think?
There's the chance Cephiro is Yokoya and sandro Harimoto, but then I don't really get Cephiro's behaviour or what he wants to do.
+ Show Spoiler [N5/D6 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak I like what's here and I agree with it. What do you think about Katina being scum though? She's been just as useless as several other of the final players. Fuck this game man, aside from you, me, ET, WBG, and syllo, the rest of the town has done nothing. I'm gonna have a fairly lengthy post to make in post game about worthless townies. Anyway I don't want to reveal our reads to the thread so that people will have more of an incentive to cooperate with us. Also if prplhz flips scum I'm really gonna pat myself on the back lol. Also wtf is up with night kills -_-. This game is seriously pissing me off right now. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: What do you think about a Palmar/prphlz scumteam? I can definitely see Palmar scum right now, there's no way he's town and one of you/ET have the chance of being scum. prplhz's behaviour was very suspicious this whole game, and I've repeated that several times. However I always forgot how he wanted to save Palmar so much all of a sudden. The ONLY read he gave on Palmar was this: Hide nested quote -
Palmar because syllogism says so. Well, primarily because syllogism says so, those two have impeccable reads on each other. Other than that he also looks townie enough to me, I think he looks a little more ... "directionless" as scum, like he doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to be doing. And that was in a fricking PM with me after I had to pressure him out of it. He's very quiet these days, just wanted to kill chaoser/Wiggles only because they were the only "acceptable" targets from the majority that weren't Palmar (of course he never gave any reads of why he wanted to kill them). He is so intent on saving Palmar out of nowhere. If it weren't for his 5 votes on Palmar the other day Palmar could have been lynched (if it wasn't for chaoser's 5 votes on him, don't really know why chaoser did that tbh). Seems that he doesn't even care about "outing" himself with Palmar if it means he can give his 5 votes freely to him to keep them at 3 scum until the game ends. Wiggles' case on Palmar, and several others are spot on. He just doesn't care about scumhunting or doing anything, nor is active in PMs nor does shit. He just says things like "Yeah the scum is definitely on this list [shows random list]", "Katina is scum lolz", "Meapak is town because he thinks I'm town, that's legit". There's no way he would be so passive as town, specially at fricking Night 5 (this is not Day 2 or anything). Yeah, I think a Palmar/prphlz scum team makes sense. The remaining one is either sloosh or Wiggles, and I'm not sure. I guess it doesn't make much sense for Wiggles to be in the same scum team as Palmar, but to be honest they hadn't even mentioned each other at all the whole game until Wiggles just came up with that case on him. Of course, Wiggles pathetic behaviour up until he was called out doesn't help him. If he isn't then sloosh should be their scumbuddy. And to be honest I can see him be scum, specially after he told me he thought prphlz was town without any convincing reasoning. Another funny thing, Wiggles and sloosh/Radfield voted the same EVERY SINGLE DAY. Might seem like a coincidence though, but the point is that if Palmar and prplhz are scum, we can't figure out which one of sloosh/Wiggles is scum by analysing the votes. The votes from sloosh/Wiggles, prplhz and Palmar indicate they can be scum as well, since it's always split 2-1. What do you think? If I die tonight be sure to put Palmar/prplhz under scrutiny or get them lynched. After that keep a close eye on Wiggles/sloosh to figure out who's the last scum from them. Oh yeah don't fucking forget about sandroba, and get him lynched after killing Palmar/prplhz. Let's hope he kills one of them at least before we lynch him. (Yeah I'm sending this exact PM to ET too because I'm lazy )
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak Honestly I'd rather kill sandroba. We really need to just get scum numbers down, that's the part the retarded cephiro didn't realize. Scum KP is weird for some reason so it's all gonna come down to lynches and that's why I feel we need to stick with sandroba. He's basically been confirmed scum since day 1 and I really don't want to put off killing him anymore. Also in regards to sloosh, I feel Katina is much more likely to be scum than he is. Sloosh has been nothing but cooperative with us, and while it could have been because he knew we were on the wrong track (if we are and he's scum), he wouldn't have known that until after he decided to work with us. My read on him is that he really has no idea what the hell is going on and has just decided to sheep you, me, and ET. I could see a wiggles, palmar, prplhz, katina (in any combination of three) much more easily then I could see sloosh in there. Anyway I really think we need to just kill sandroba and get that over with. If there was any rational for leaving him alive it was that he'd shoot into the other scum team, clearly that's not going to be the case so it's better just to kill him and be done with it. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I find Palmar's reasons for thinking sloosh/prplhz town very convinient.
Basically, prplhz just sheeped the hell out of him and syllo and that makes him "confirmed town" in his eyes. If say, they were to be scumbuddies it seems a very convenient way to have a town read on one another.
Same with sloosh/Radfield. He thinks Radfield was town because we supported a case against chaoser? Are you kidding me? We already caught a suspected Yokoya (sandroba), so anybody else's interactions with chaoser don't matter.
Also again he thinks he's town because he sheeped/supported him on D1 and apparently he "claimed" to him.
Again, it would be very convenient if both were scum.
However, the fact that he just doesn't mention Wiggles AT ALL makes me uneasy. Fuck let's kill Palmar first and then figure that out.
Maybe we can implement something like we said before.
2 of us vote NO (for instance), and we tell Palmar/prplhz to vote NO as well (we tell them that we want to lynch Wiggles by having him vote YES or something). Then we tell the rest to vote YES and 1 other person to vote NO as well.
Something like this:
What we tell Palmar/prplhz about the votes:
YES: ET, MZ, sandroba, Katina
NO: Palmar, prplhz, gonzaw, sloosh
We then tell him that we'll do that to have Wiggles in the majority no matter what (and we will kill Wiggles in Round B), and that we'll try to convince Wiggles to vote YES so we can kill sandro as well (or something).
Maybe if we tell them "Yeah we plan on killing Katina as well" it will be easier to convince them >_>
What we will actually vote:
YES: MZ, sandroba, Katina, Wiggles
NO: Palmar, prplhz, gonzaw, ET, sloosh
The only difference is ET voting NO instead of YES.
ALL the other votes won't change, meaning it will be easier to pull this off. If we tell Katina to vote YES, then she will vote YES. If Palmar/pprlhz ask her about the vote she won't lie about it, only we (me/you/ET) will actually know how the votes will go and only we have to lie to them about it.
What do you think? I just came up with it and maybe there's a better way around it, so toss ideas if you can.
(Again, I'm lazy as hell so I'll PM ET this same PM >_> )
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak Here's what ET sent me. I'm not opposed to doing this, it'll get at least one of our targets in the majority. Show nested quote +Original Message From EchelonTee: I have an essay due tonight, then I will be done with finals and able to commit more time. Let's just do a standard split; we'll nail some of sandroba/wiggles/palmar and proceed from there. yes/no Me/Gonzaw You/Katina Sloosh/Wiggles (if he listens) Can you PM the people telling them to follow this? Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh:
How do you want to work it? Gonzaw is gone so you and I need to think up something sooner rather than later.
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Wiggles] +By Wiggles I already sent in Yes =/ Just sent it in 10 minutes ago. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
You should vote NO today.
Again, plan to split the vote to get scum (Palmar/sandro/etc) into majority no matter what
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A sloosh] +By sloosh Voting NO Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Change of plans.
Someone who was supposed to vote NO already voted YES; so please vote NO.
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak So I'll be voting yes to counter Katina then. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Nope, only: Katina, sloosh, Wiggles, prplhz. Told Katina, sloosh and prplhz to vote NO, and Wiggles told me he voted YES. A sandro+Palmar/prplhz multilynch would be great. If we manage to keep the votes secret, we could even get all 3 lynched as well, assuming prplhz gives Palmar 5 votes, and we say something like "Fuck it we are killing sandro alone today" so Palmar/prplhz don't get more votes. We then give prplhz+sandro 5 votes each and get all 3 killed. If 2 of them end up in the majority, then if it's sandro+ one of palmar/prplhz we can multilynch. If it's Palmar+prplhz it will be harder, since I don't know who they'd try to save of those 2. If there aren't any night kills from now on, maybe we do have a chance of winning lynching single scum, but that's a risk since it's impossible to know if there will be a night kill or not. However we've been lucky these past 2 days so maybe we get more lucky the next ones. Original Message From Meapak Have you PM'd everyone else? I think we're gonna need to multilynch if we have any shot of winning this game. Original Message From gonzaw:
Well, Wiggles told me he already voted YES, so I told sloosh to vote NO instead.
Since Palmar voted NO, I told prplhz to vote NO as well (told him we would try to get sandro/Wiggles lynched or some other shit).
Hopefully, all Palmar/sandro/prplhz vote NO if they fall for that.
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Katina] +By Katina Sounds good. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Okay got a plan from MZ/ET You should vote NO today. We are trying to split the vote to get some scum in the majority Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Katina:
Is there a plan for today? I PMed EchelonTee earlier but he didn't say anything.
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Katina] +By Katina Well, you me ET have been coordinating our votes for the past 5 days. We have Meapak with us now, and I assume someone is telling prphlz what to vote as well (and he's cooperating). So my question is which players are not being told what to do and are voting of their own accord? I'm guessing sandroba and Palmar are not part of the group. Is Wiggles part of the group? Sloosh? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Well, you'll find out in 40 minutes But lol, really I don't know what you mean, what do you mean by "not part of the organization"? I told quite a few people how to vote, some of them are the ones we are trying to get into majority and others that don't. Just so nothing funny happens we'll reveal that right before the deadline or after it. Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Katina:
Which players are voting that are not part of the organization? Needs to be known to figure out who is on the mafia team with 3 players. They are obviously not going to have all 3 members vote together. And I bet it's been that way the entire game.
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak (the plan)] +By Meapak Ok I have an idea of how to pull off a triple kill but I'll need to take a bit to write it out. The idea is that we tell prp, palmar that we're going to kill sandroba and have them delegate out their votes like last time (in groups of 2 and 3) so that they don't get suspicious. We can even have Palmar give a vote to prp or vice versa to get the completely at ease. Then we just fill in sandroba for whatever amount that palmar and prp have accumulated and boom, triple kill. I don't think any one but you, me, and ET should know we're going for a triple. Just tell katina and sloosh we're killing sandroba. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Here is the voting sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDd4OU10S3JTc1EwZFAtQUtZSlJENXc#gid=0If we plan to lynch Palmar, sandro and prplhz all together, then we should: Get me, Katina and sloosh to 8 votes Have at least 5 votes to spare to dump some votes into sandro or one of Palmar/prplhz to ensure a multilynch I'm trying to come up with something that fulfills that (check the spreadsheet to know what I'm talking about), and also that buffers some lone scum (other than sandro/Palmar/prplhz) to try something funny and fuck up the votes Also, damn I guess we need to make cases and post our thoughts in the thread as well so people know what we are talking about >_> I'll do that tomorrow most likely, it's very late now (Again, same PM sent to ET/MZ because of laziness)
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak Alright take a look at what I've got. Remember, the real spreadsheet is the number of votes you're actually going to be getting (you're not getting as many in the phony one). I think what I've got can work... and if it doesn't I'm out of ideas. If you've got any improvements go ahead, just make sure both sheets reflect the changes. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, I was playing around with it a little bit and came up with one system, but it seems too "weird" and random, and there's no real way to justify the placement of each vote. Yeah I'm going to sleep in a few moments. You can edit the spreadsheets so do whatever you can. Try for BOTH spreadsheets to have this: Protection for me against some random scum doing whatever he wants Justifications for each vote given (for instance like the whole 2-3 thing we did last day) And yeah some other things that make the phony system convincing. You can also tell the thread something like: "We were planning on killing Palmar today but I convinced ET and gonzaw to try and kill sandro alone today. We desperately need to kill scum, even if it's Yokoya so we can't go wrong with a sole sandroba lynch today. This is how each of you should vote so everybody except sandro get 8 votes and we avoid some random scum fucking up with the votes (or some other shit): [phony spreadsheet]" Or something Hide nested quote -
Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh:
I'm gonna finish up some hw and then I'm gonna spend some time on the spreadsheets tonight.
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round B ET] +By ET K, sent in my votes Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I think I came up with something.
Check the spreadsheet.
What voting like this will do:
If everybody from said list votes according to plan, me, sloosh and Katina will have 8 votes each, and me, ET and MZ will have 2 votes each to spare to try to achieve a multilynch, or to keep them just in case
Worst possible scenario that can happen is: Palmar, sandro and prplhz giving 5 votes to each other (somehow). In this case, then if 1 other person outs himself to give his 5 spare votes to them, he can only do it like 1-2-2 at best, meaning that if 1 scum outs himself, at best he can get one of Palmar/sandro/prplhz to 6 votes.
If that "Player X" is one of sloosh/Wiggles/Katina, then they can only get sloosh/Katina lynched (since they give me 2 votes but sloosh/Katina 3 at most).
If that "Player X" is ET or MZ...well then you got me guys you can get me lynched! (you take away yoru 2 votes on me, so I get to 6 and get lynched alongside the 1 from sandro/Palmar/prplhz).
This is very unlikely to happen, but even if you were scum, and even if you were to do it, then I won't get lynched alone and will likely take a scum down with me, AND you will be outed as scum. This is a pretty sweet deal as well, and I wouldn't mind dying to achieve it (so if any of you two is scum, go for it ).
This whole scenario is also unlikely since it dwells on Palmar/prplhz giving sandro 5 votes, which I don't think will happen at all. I can see Palmar/prplhz giving 5 votes to each other though.
Sounds good? If sloosh/Wiggles/Katina is scum and decide something funny, at worst they can get sloosh/Katina lynched and I'm completely safe from the lynch.
Palmar/prplhz/sandro can't do anything themselves since their votes are unaccounted for.
We will have 6 spare votes between the 3 of us to try and get a multilynch, depending on what prplhz/Palmar claim they will vote, etc.
However, if we do dump 6 votes on Palmar/sandroba/prplhz, then things could get messy if someone else outs himself as scum, but meh I doubt it will happen
PRE-EDIT: Okay MZ has a plan as well, but it means having 2 different spreadsheets with different votes, one which we'll keep to ourselves and one which we'll give to everybody else.
We need to plan that thoroughly though, but we have time
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak That's what I did. Now we just have to wait :/ Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: So 2 on sandro, 2 on Katina and 1 on prplhz, right? Yeah lol, I keep always thinking "Wait, what if I sent the wrong votes and I fuck everything up? Oh dear!" Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: That looks right. I sent sandroba 2 so this means he'll have five which is the number we wanted. I was super nervous sending mine in as well lol. Original Message From gonzaw:
Okay, I'll send my votes:
2x sloosh
3x sandroba
That was the plan right? (just making sure I'm not confusing the spreadsheets and voting like the "phony" one >_> )
+ Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak I assumed you had seen the results and were raging. Protact didn't tell me anything I'm just assuming. Can't be long now. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: lol why? Did you think the post already went up or something? Did Protact tell you that? If so.....damn longest 6 minutes of my life. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: God dammit don't send me PMs with that subject. I think it'll be in 6 minutes. Original Message From gonzaw:
Where is the damn Night post!?
This is so fucking intense, I'm just waiting for all 3 of them to flip mafia or something, but Protactinum is killing me with the wait!
+ Show Spoiler [N6 Meapak] +By Meapak We have control of the thread and no one can take that from us. Let's try and bring it home because at this point the loss would be on us as well (not all of it but a portion). Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, let's focus on that tomorrow, no need to multilynch Wiggles+Katina+sandro and get sandro to survive another day by fucking with us more. Yeah, I suppose nobody saw that coming either. I think we may have scared the shit out of scum though, like even Palmar followed the plan perfectly. This should let the scum out of Katina+Wiggles+sloosh know that even if they "follow" our plans and "support" us it doesn't mean we think they are town. Hopefully those scum slip more, etc. Even better is that those scum can't really do anything. If we have a plan for them to vote a certain way, then they have to follow it, since voting differently than that without even consulting so before is a scum claim and they would out themselves. I think we have a good chance of winning this, as long as the 3 of us (me, ET, you) are alive, or at least 1 or 2 of us. Although now we got scum from both families killed (chaoser and Palmar), I doubt somebody will suddenly start thinking we are scum or anything, making scum more pressured to follow our plans, even if it means killing them. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Yeah we need to stop fucking around and kill sandroba. I think the important part is that you and I have control and scum know it. We can pick anyone who doesn't work with us out. I gaurentee you no one saw the palmar kill coming. Original Message From gonzaw: Well fuck, it changes some reads of mine. I thought that only one of sloosh/Wiggles would be scum, but it may seem like both are. Yes Wiggles is very likely scum at this point, but I think sloosh is more likely scum than Katina tbh (again, same reasons I stated before). I'll try to check the voting patterns of a Palmar+Wiggles+??? scum team and see how it goes. Also, would you agree with what I said in the thread? If there are no night kills tonight, perhaps we can kill sandro once and for all. We just have 3 people vote NO, and 3 vote YES, sandro will be in the majority no matter what (Wiggles+sloosh+Katina all "cooperated" with us before so we can get them to do it again). Then we instantly kill him and get rid of him and then we'll just be 4 town vs 2 Harimoto, and sandro won't be there to fuck our plans. If there are night kills, well, then we are practically toast if there are 2, but if there is 1 then we need a multi lynch, preferably of Wiggles+sandro, and maybe someone else. Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh:
That went neutral. We got a scum, sandroba proved he will be easy to kill, and we got prplhz out of the way. The problem is the remaining scum from Palmar's team. I'm really thinking katina hbu?
+ Show Spoiler [N6 Meapak] +By Meapak Well look at what Katina's done, Palmar's been her number one scum read and she hasn't done shit to push it. I haven't read your other PMs so I'm gonna peruse those now. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Check the votes and shit here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdGlhekd5dU9rVkdJZDlzWnFybmFSV2c#gid=0(it seems nobody even uses it, why did I even bother making it? >_> ) If we assume Palmar+Wiggles scumteam, then Palmar and Wiggles vote the opposite each day, except Day 4. The votes are like this: YES: chaoser, ET, MZ, Wiggles, Palmar, sloosh NO: Cephiro, gonzaw, Katina, prplhz, sandroba If sloosh were their scumbuddy, then it means that all 3 scum voted the same thing (YES) on that day. It would seem like it wouldn't make sense for them to do that on Day 4 (I would understand them doing it on D1 to confuse us, but maybe not on D4). Palmar+Wiggles+Katina scumteam has them split the vote 2-1 each day, so it's consistent. Although that would mean Katina would be bussing the hell out of Palmar throughout the whole game :/ Meh, I guess it's possible though, I mean Wiggles would bus the hell out of Palmar with that case of his as well. Yeah, a Palmar+Wiggles+Katina scum team makes more sense, if you can find anything else that supports it then even better.
+ Show Spoiler [N6 Meapak] +By Meapak Yup this looks good. Now don't freak out when I say this but I want to try the multilynch again. This time to ensure it's success our multilynch target will have zero votes along with sandroba. Now it'll take me a bit to conceptualize fully but I think we can do it. Again, don't freak out on me here, just give me a bit to fully flesh out what I'm thinking. And I would limit your posting over the night. Let's make a doc tomorrow to give to ET (because let's face it, if there are two scum kills they'll hit us). Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I have a plan for letting sandro die tomorrow, but it can be done only if there aren't any night kills again.
We have EVERYBODY vote like this:
YES: ET, gonzaw, Katina
NO: Wiggles, sloosh, Meapak
That way, sandroba would be in the majority no matter what he votes.
After that, we just make a simple plan to have everybody reach 9 votes and sandroba get 0, and we kill him.
The problem is that if there is 1 night kill tonight, we can't do that and sandro may even force a draw.
Again, if someone decides to vote differently we count it as a scum claim. I doubt they would though, if sandro is Yokoya even Harimoto would want him dead, and Wiggles/Katina/sloosh cooperated with us until now, and not doing so would be "out of character" from them and would INSTANTLY out them as scum. So I think this will work 100%
Anyways, what do you think?
Too bad these cycles feel so long. Like, we decide to kill sandro and we need to wait 72 hours to do it, and nothing happens in between.
+ Show Spoiler [N6 sloosh] +By sloosh
Hey.
I'm pretty certain the final scum is ET (along with sandroba and Mr. Wiggles).
Watch his filter and see how he soft defends Mr. Wiggles multiple times.
Of course this is only incriminating if you see Mr. Wiggles as scum, but me, katina and MZ think so which indicates that unless this is some stupid bus then townies think he is scum.
I'm putting this in PM for reserve when the game progresses and you realize that the last scum is in between
slOosh
katina
Meapak_Ziphh
EchelonTee
gonzaw
and one of the four above are scum (from your perspective because I'm pretty certain you are town)
As for your reservations with Radfield - if you look at the context the votes look weird because WBG messed up with the voting spreadsheet - Radfield was just following the town plan (instead of going lone ranger ala VE or Cephiro). I know Palmar toyed with pushing that idea before flipping and calling me townie - I'd be wary of people who use this.
In the interest of transparency here is my PM with ET.
I asked about the timestamps in the thread because I want to know if he brought my reads on prplhz when you guys discussed the plan - if he knew about the plan he knew the best he could do is rope in a dead townie (prplhz), and couldn't leak the information because it would indicate that the circle was compromised and result in intense scrutiny on both him and Palmar.
*PMs with prplhz I think*
I'm putting my suspicions of Meapak on hold because I find him going after both Palmar and Mr Wiggles very unlikely as scum (bus both teammates hard) and his flip where he calls Palmar town seems too risky for a scum ploy.
You don't need to reply (if you have questions I'd be glad to answer them all), just keep it in mind, look at how he has been acting within your discussions and come to your own conclusion. You don't have to share your own reads, I'm not asking for information. Just keep it in mind - not going to bring it up in thread yet because we have to get sandroba and Mr. Wiggles lynched first and I don't want him to be aware.
+ Show Spoiler [N6 sloosh] +By sloosh Ah - received this while I was writing up my PM. Fishy is if ET withheld my prplhz read. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Why do you want the timestamps? What is that "fishy" thing you found?
I may give you the PMs were we talked about it and the timestamp (beware that they are on GMT -3), but only if you tell us what you mean
+ Show Spoiler [N6 or D6 Round B I don't remembe…] +By ET Between Katina and MZ, I'm assuming you think Katina is slightly worse? I did mean it when I said that "fun fact: all flipped scum have targeted Katina"; though Katina isn't the most lively person, do you actually think she's scummy in anyway? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
So you gave me 3 votes and gave sloosh 2 then, right?
+ Show Spoiler [N6/D7 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak He sent me an identical PM to the one he sent you. He's either scum who realized he's gonna have to win through mislynching or dumb townie who doesn't understand that if ET was scum Palmar wouldn't have died. I haven't told him that he's a candidate for the last scum and I don't plan on making public my choice for the last scum until I've talked over it with you and ET. I'm curious to see who posts what today as I expect scum to start calling us into suspicion to try and undermine our control of the thread (like wiggles tried to lol). Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: So sloosh still "kind of" suspicious of you, yet he tells you his suspicions about ET? Did he tell you something else? But well, okay then, I'll PM everybody what to vote then. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I got the same thing from him. :/ I feel really confident that ET is town so it made me start to suspect sloosh. Your plan sounds good. I'm gonna play some LoL, I'll go through both sloosh and katina and see what sort of case I can create. Obviously I'll send you whatever I make first rather than just post it to the thread. Also I feel the same way about killing them all lol. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I got this PM from sloosh (after he mentioned the "timestamps" thing) Original Message From slOosh:
Hey.
I'm pretty certain the final scum is ET (along with sandroba and Mr. Wiggles).
Watch his filter and see how he soft defends Mr. Wiggles multiple times.
Of course this is only incriminating if you see Mr. Wiggles as scum, but me, katina and MZ think so which indicates that unless this is some stupid bus then townies think he is scum.
I'm putting this in PM for reserve when the game progresses and you realize that the last scum is in between
slOosh
katina
Meapak_Ziphh
EchelonTee
gonzaw
and one of the four above are scum (from your perspective because I'm pretty certain you are town)
As for your reservations with Radfield - if you look at the context the votes look weird because WBG messed up with the voting spreadsheet - Radfield was just following the town plan (instead of going lone ranger ala VE or Cephiro). I know Palmar toyed with pushing that idea before flipping and calling me townie - I'd be wary of people who use this.
In the interest of transparency here is my PM with ET.
I asked about the timestamps in the thread because I want to know if he brought my reads on prplhz when you guys discussed the plan - if he knew about the plan he knew the best he could do is rope in a dead townie (prplhz), and couldn't leak the information because it would indicate that the circle was compromised and result in intense scrutiny on both him and Palmar.
*Pms with prplzh*
I'm putting my suspicions of Meapak on hold because I find him going after both Palmar and Mr Wiggles very unlikely as scum (bus both teammates hard) and his flip where he calls Palmar town seems too risky for a scum ploy.
You don't need to reply (if you have questions I'd be glad to answer them all), just keep it in mind, look at how he has been acting within your discussions and come to your own conclusion. You don't have to share your own reads, I'm not asking for information. Just keep it in mind - not going to bring it up in thread yet because we have to get sandroba and Mr. Wiggles lynched first and I don't want him to be aware.
What do you think of it?
Like, he thinks ET is scum because he "softdefended" Wiggles a couple of times. In fact, that may be an understatement since at one point ET publicly said he thought Wiggles was town, opposed his lynch and wanted to give him 6 votes to save him.
And, he assumes ET "hid" sloosh's town read on prplhz from us or something
However, it seems odd he would find ET suspicious like that, he may try to instill doubt into our circle by PMing only me his suspicions about ET. Then again they may be legit suspicions, but they are weak, and the manner seems odd.
Ah fuck, I'm having so much doubts about Katina/sloosh/Wiggles, thank god we can kill all of them and still win.
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round A ET] +By ET sent in my vote Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Just to remember, you should vote YES now.
The votes will be like this:
NO: gonzaw, MZ, sloosh
YES: ET, Katina, Wiggles
I already PMed sloosh/Wiggles/Katina to vote accordingly. There isn't much to it though, so I guess we have to wait until then.
I PMed everybody individually. If I did the voting public, then sandro would know which players voted what and he could choose in what majority he will be (either the YES or NO majority).
I don't want to give him info so he can decide (even if he'll 100% die). We should just put him in the dark as much as we can.
I'll vote NO now, just so I don't forget (I always forget about voting and Protact always PMs me like 5 minutes before the deadline and I'm like "Wtf? I didn't vote? FUCK FUCK FUCK" lol )
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round A Katina] +By Katina Okay I just assumed you had a plan since last night since you thought up that other plan the night before. That's why I was asking. And like I said I'm trying to make sure these plans are coming from townies who are doing it for the town. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, vote YES
We'll try to vote 3 YES/3 NO to get sandroba into majority no matter what.
As you can see, this would only work if there were no night kills last night, so I wasn't "lying" or whatever you implied when I said it depended on what happened that night >_>
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+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B Meapak (new plan)] +By Meapak I'm not sure I follow, why would we need two phony ones for katina/wiggles? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Okay then! Katina and Wiggles voted YES and sloosh voted NO. So we first need to see what sandro voted (meaning who is in the majority). If sloosh is in the majority alone, then we copy exactly what we did last day. However, I think we should "put" sandro's votes on me/ET/MZ because we can't count on them at all >_> If Katina and Wiggles are in the majority, well we need something more complex, we would need 3 spreadsheets, 2 phony ones (one where Katina would be the pseudo-lynch and one where Wiggles is) and 1 real one. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: bro I love it. It'll be best if our votes look odd, ET wasn't in on it last time so I think it should just be our votes which look funky. In fact it'd be great if we could come close to duplicating what we did yesterday in terms of how you and my votes look. I'm seriously loving this idea. I see you sent me a spreadsheet, I'll give it a looksy. Original Message From gonzaw:
Hey, I have an idea. I don't think it will actually work, but well it's better than just do nothing and make a boring plan to get sandro lynched alone.
Let's make a similar plan as yesterday, have a "phony" voting system we will give everybody, and a "real" one which we will actually implement. Meaning, we all tell Katina/sloosh/etc how to vote, and we tell them "Me, ET and MZ will vote this way". However, in "secret" we vote another way.
However, my plan is to actually vote that way, and actually get sandro alone. What I want to do is make sloosh/Katina/Wiggles think we will make another secret plan to get them lynched too (when in fact we won't).
If that's the case, then perhaps that scum we target will panic and place his votes or tell a scumbuddy give him votes to save him. What I mean is, I want to scare scum into outing themselves, while not doing anything.
For instance, imagine the majority is me, sandro, sloosh and Wiggles.
Then I say something like: Okay, Wiggles, sloosh, you 2 give me your 5 votes. ET will give 5 votes to sloosh and MZ will give 5 votes to Wiggles. sandro will get 0 votes.
Now, people will wonder "what an odd system, I think they have an ulterior plan". They see that you gave Wiggles 5 votes, and if you actually gave them to me you would get WIggles lynched. So if Wiggles is scum, his scum team may think "Damn, they plan on getting Wiggles lynched". Then perhaps Wiggles scumbuddy (perhaps Katina) gives WIggles votes to save him or something.
However, in fact we would follow our promise and would actually give Wiggles 5 votes.
See? I'm sure it's kind of stupid and unnecessary, but hell this game is boring as hell and we have nothing to do this next Round B, and maybe...just maybe it works and scum out themselves.
What do you think?
I was thinking of having a weird system with crossed votes. Like ET giving Wiggles 2 votes and sloosh 3, then you giving Katina 2, Wiggles 2 and sloosh 1, etc. That way there would be a lot of combinations that could get either Katina, sloosh or Wiggles lynched, and scum won't know which one we plan to "use".
That way, all the scum from that group will feel threatened, and there's a higher chance they will out themselves.
What do you think?
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B ET] +By ET Reposted from what I sent to Sloosh. If I had to rate my reads it would be this, from most townie to least 0. ET 1. gonzaw 2. sloosh 3. Katina 4. M_Z 5. Mr. Wiggles 6. Sandroba I wouldn't cry if Katina or Sloosh was killed over M_Z because it's starting to look like scum have limited/gimped KP, but this is just what I'm feeling. ---------------------------- ORIGINALY SENT TO SLOOSH: Gonzaw's my most trusted town read, Sandroba my most sure scumread; from there it descends nebulously. With you, I don't exactly like how you acted earlier in the game but 1. you were a replacement and 2. that's semi-indicative of your town meta and 3. you've been really open in PMs. Earlier, it felt like you weren't very interested in contributing, but you've for the most part rectified that; you're one of the few posters (starting a day or two ago) who I felt was actually making posts to produce content. However, it's not the hardest thing in the world to be open in PMs and I'm sure you could fake it to make it. Overall though, just based off your tone in-thread I'd peg you as more townie than someone like Wiggles. Wiggles was acting a lot like his town self earlier in the game (makes plans, pushes people sort of but in a wishy way, facilitates discussions as an observer primarily), but the way he did that reactionary read towards Palmar, and the dismissive stance he has towards the town circle is sort of strange. He's always one for following plans and policy (as related through PMs), and the way he seems averse to our cooperation as opposed to conciliatary seems kind of false. He also only made his read on Palmar when pressed up the butt, which isn't inherently bad, but makes it so he doesn't really look very townie from it. He's a curious read; tbh when he was first getting pushed it felt a lot to me like a mislynch being pushed, but these days, I wouldn't mind him dying. Katina is a curious character. In all games I play with her she ALWAYS gets targeted, accused, etc., yet a lot of people acknowledge her as a strong player. Though her posting style seems really nooby (imo), her reads have been pretty good for most of the game, pegging chaoser/BC/Palmar, though it was through assistance (foolishness) that she made her reads. I don't think she has been "useless" in the slightest, as she has posted analysis on most of her reads. I could see her playing a "bus all my teammates endgame" style of play, but I feel like that would be really suboptimal in a game like this; she did a tactic like that in Arkham City, but that game had a load of super scummy weird as butt posters (Bill Murray, RGTS) that could be lynched over her. In this game, especially as it is starting to look like scum have limited or gimped KP, having Katina's style to try and bus all teammates to the end seems pretty unlikely. Thus I can't comfortably pair her with either scum team; she's leaning townie in my book. Gonzaw I find townie for much of the same reason that I found WBG townie; they put an assload of work into the game for townie gain. Gonzaw has been making tons of spreadsheets, making plans with me, and overall tryign to keep life in the game. He does play a very active scum game, but when he's scum, he kind of inundates the thread with a lot of craziness. Though he did sort of do that with Cephiro, the craziness I am thinking of is a lot more scattered to keep town off balance. This gonzaw has been very focused and I can't see many scenarios in which he is scum. Sandroba I wanted to give a chance to work out his kinks, as I did for the most part towards prplhz, but it's pretty clear he doesn't give a fck about this game. I was partially swayed by my conversation with VE on sandroba, as he felt that he was being wrongfully accused, but by now Sandroba would've at least tried to engage in conversations with us in scumhunting, planning, etc. In converse to gonzaw, I don't see many scenarios where he can be town. Of course, I thought the same about Cephiro, but fingers crossed -.- M_Z is another curious character, and it's between him and Katina that I am primarily debating about. If it's between me, you, and gonzaw, you'd probably get the axe in my book, but I'd rather see Katina and M_Z flip before you. Reason for M_Z is that his entrance into the thread was a little curious. He came in extremely strong D3 and took control of the thread; while this is obviously good to keep momentum rolling, I'm always more partial to people who are continously constructive from D1. Unforunately these people, if paired with good reads, are always shot. M_Z coming in like that I could see from a scum perspective; he sees his team getting pewpew'd like flies or about to, so he makes a big push to get himself into the town circles. However, it is true that he has been working hard towards plans that postively affect the town. The thing is, gonzaw (and myself, I would argue), have been the main proginators of these plans. Me and gonzaw both independtly came up with the basic vote split Phase A, and me and him alternately organized skewing either the YES or the NO on various days to target people we found scummy. M_Z... I felt has got a lot of credit for not that much. The way he acted towards Palmar was strange, to say the least; he went from being quite sure he was scum, to completely thinking he was town. If we were to argue purely based on results, then M_Z hasn't made tht many great reads, though I suppose I haven't exactly either, but while others pushed their reads around early, M_Z has mostly been using reads that were developed and fine tuned by others. What makes it tough is that I don't know how he usually acts, and I could see his actions from town/scum perspective. One thing from the early game that I remember is M_Z coming out and saying "hey, I think you're super townie because of that post. keep it up bro". Buddying isn't inherently scummy of course, but looking back, I don't know why he would say something like that to me so early in the game, when no one is confirmed. It sounded like he was a bit sure that I was town; I guess I'm speculating a bit much here. If Wiggles flips town then I will probably pursue M_Z hard, but atm, we just need to see the people flip and move on from there. Thoughts? I'll probably repost this to gonzaw, and only him. --------------- Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
*sigh* I don't really know anymore.
Okay, first of all Wiggles is scum, like not only because of his behaviour but just because of process of elimination.
I was getting some scummy vibes out of sloosh, like his reaction to Wiggles, a PM he told me where he thought prplhz was town because of some bullshit reason, and some tiny things (like Radfield's previous behaviour, who barely scumhunted and just served as Palmar's "2nd right hand" in a way).
But now he is saying some stuff that have a slight "town feel" to them or something
Katina has been cooperative with us, but that's it. I mean, her posts don't seem scummy per se, and she FoSed pretty much all flipped scum by now (and flipped scum FoSed her in return).
Does that mean she is town? Or is it a planned bus like the ones from Arkham City?
I dunno, I just wish I could kill all of them at the same time and not worry about it too much.
And I hope I don't come to a point where I have to be suspicious of any of you two (you/MZ). I think both of you are town and I'm playing under that assumption. Any of you two being scum just fucks up everything I've done so far. So far I haven't seen any indications that any of you 2 are scum, and by the way you two are acting, planning and trying to get town to win you are very likely town.
If I assume that, then by process of elimination there are 2 scum on Katina/Wiggles/sloosh, and that's where I'm putting my effort.
Do you find Meapak suspicious?
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B sloosh] +By sloosh
I would like to request putting 1 of my votes (from ET) onto katina.
I think she is town. I don't want her to die in some convoluted double lynch plan. I find it strange how I am not allowed to vote for her. I am just PMing you alone, and would like it if you kept it to yourself until the night (or whatever it is) post.
Me voting 4 ET 1 katina would result in
ET at 12
Wiggles at 11
katina at 12
sandroba at 0
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B ET] +By ET Sent in 3 wiggle 2 katina, hope that's what you laid out. Respond to my reads bro Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Hey dude, me and MZ have come up with a plan (well, I came up with the plan and MZ agreed with it >_> ). Here, I'll give you the same PM I gave him: Hide nested quote - Hey, I have an idea. I don't think it will actually work, but well it's better than just do nothing and make a boring plan to get sandro lynched alone. Let's make a similar plan as yesterday, have a "phony" voting system we will give everybody, and a "real" one which we will actually implement. Meaning, we all tell Katina/sloosh/etc how to vote, and we tell them "Me, ET and MZ will vote this way". However, in "secret" we vote another way. However, my plan is to actually vote that way, and actually get sandro alone. What I want to do is make sloosh/Katina/Wiggles think we will make another secret plan to get them lynched too (when in fact we won't). If that's the case, then perhaps that scum we target will panic and place his votes or tell a scumbuddy give him votes to save him. What I mean is, I want to scare scum into outing themselves, while not doing anything. For instance, imagine the majority is me, sandro, sloosh and Wiggles. Then I say something like: Okay, Wiggles, sloosh, you 2 give me your 5 votes. ET will give 5 votes to sloosh and MZ will give 5 votes to Wiggles. sandro will get 0 votes. Now, people will wonder "what an odd system, I think they have an ulterior plan". They see that you gave Wiggles 5 votes, and if you actually gave them to me you would get WIggles lynched. So if Wiggles is scum, his scum team may think "Damn, they plan on getting Wiggles lynched". Then perhaps Wiggles scumbuddy (perhaps Katina) gives WIggles votes to save him or something. However, in fact we would follow our promise and would actually give Wiggles 5 votes. See? I'm sure it's kind of stupid and unnecessary, but hell this game is boring as hell and we have nothing to do this next Round B, and maybe...just maybe it works and scum out themselves. What do you think? I was thinking of having a weird system with crossed votes. Like ET giving Wiggles 2 votes and sloosh 3, then you giving Katina 2, Wiggles 2 and sloosh 1, etc. That way there would be a lot of combinations that could get either Katina, sloosh or Wiggles lynched, and scum won't know which one we plan to "use". That way, all the scum from that group will feel threatened, and there's a higher chance they will out themselves. What do you think? What do you think? Here is the "phony" spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDNVcjhEbGNKbUtaRjVfd1lJRklKR0E#gid=0
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B sloosh] +By sloosh his could be mostly because she is the most transparent in thread. Honestly I have no idea what you three are thinking and you yourself have acknowledged that you withhold information from us three (which I totally understand and agree with). It's just natural to trust people who are open. I've never played with her so I'm not aware of her hard bussing capabilities. Katina has indeed pointed out scum in both teams. To be honest I have somewhat sheeped foolishness' read as well so that may have clouded my judgement on her, and her consternation of my votes does reveal her fear of getting double lynched, which could mean she is trying to use me (no doubt that the final scums are trying to find any support that they can). I will revisit her posts in context and my PMs with her. I can see the possibility of her being scum. I guess the biggest lesson I'm learning this game is that even the best veterans aren't infallible - it just feels like their town reads have the same weight as a DT check, esp. coming from someone like Foolishness. Mmm. I'm still down for lynching Wiggles for sure. In any case we have to consider the possibility of having an all town majority and so we need to make sure we have a good lynch target in both sides of the question. I don't mind being put in majority if it comes down to it. It just exonerates me when I follow the plan and we get scum lynched. Well, I guess now not as much because its 2 scum in separate families, but you get my point. You might hear from me once more tonight, but most likely I won't be able to reread till tomorrow sometime. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Meapak doesn't PM with you, nor Katina/Wiggles for a reason. Me and Meapak think the 2 remaining scum are in the 3 of you. We can't go around telling you 3 our reads when there would be only 1 townie in your group. Also some of our plans hinge on keeping info from you 3. I don't find that "trying to gain credit" thing suspicious at all. It's true, me and Meapak have been doing most of the plans lately and I can attest that. ET has been part of some, and he's been been more active with plans from Day 2 to Day 4 mostly, so it's not like he wants to "steal" credit or anything. Also, remember we thinking Katina is town, yet thinking the trio is town is not a contradiction either (i.e you could be scum). I was thinking Katina was town in the beginning (mostly trusting Foo's read), but she could be scum via a process of elimination. Yes, she has gone against members from both teams, but I know she's capable of bussing teammates hard, and if she's scum I don't see any real downfall in doing so this game, whether on Palmar or chaoser/BC (and sandro). As in, she just FoSes those guys, but I don't see her pushing for their lynch at all (or making plans to get them lynched, etc). I'll say that I'm very sure ET and Meapak are town. At this point mostly Meapak, because of his activity in PMs with me, and genuine care for town to win. ET because of his active cooperation, behaviour unlike SoaF, willingness to share reads, clarity of them, etc. Why are you so sure Katina is town though? I don't remember you thinking that before (I may have forgot though). Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: I have been PMing both Meapak and EchelonTee to find the final scum (I think Wiggles, roba is scum, you and katina town so process of elimination). Now I have found a discrepancy which will shed light on one of their alignments: This concerns taking credit for plans. This first quote is interactions with Meapak concerning my suspicions on EchelonTee. Bolded is the sentence in question. Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I'm sorry to say is pretty much impossible, we three have lynched scum from both teams, if your theory was correct then we would have never been able to do that. ET was in on the switch yesterday, had he been scum he could have made it so that Palmar lived and prplhz/another townie (his choice) were killed. Had he done that it would be 3v4 instead of 4v3. I'll say this as well, all of the plans have been thought up so far by Gonzaw and myself so your suggestion that ET is the one pulling strings is false. HOWEVER, the post you made actually helped us a lot for reasons you'll see later. Today we're killing sandroba and moving from there. This next quote is interactions with Echelon concerning my suspicions on Meapak. Bolded is the sentence of note (he is talking about his read with Meapak) Original Message From EchelonTee:
However, it is true that he has been working hard towards plans that postively affect the town. The thing is, gonzaw (and myself, I would argue), have been the main proginators of these plans. Me and gonzaw both independtly came up with the basic vote split Phase A, and me and him alternately organized skewing either the YES or the NO on various days to target people we found scummy. M_Z... I felt has got a lot of credit for not that much. One of them are lying to gain favor in my eyes, as basically I think they are forced bussing their teammates and will need town sentiment to pull off the final mislynch, and aren't planning on making me the mislynch (at least with ET. Meapak is more reserved and I see this as suspicious). To be clear I am now swaying to thinking Meapak is the final scum. I'll be continuing to press them in PMs. I originally thought Meapak scum when WBG and syllo were first shot but have been dissuaded with him bussing his teammates and his Palmar is town ploy. However ET is pretty clear and open in PMs and I'm constantly reconsidering my reads. On that note, tell me if you are considering katina scum. I need to know if I should be putting more focus in discerning that because I can't see her as scum at all (she has basically called out members of both mafia from the start of the game). And on that note I'm just voting according to plan. I'm being paranoid and I trust that you aren't going to lynch her, but even if you do it will be 3 townies 2 scum and we can all focus on the last scum.
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B ET] +By ET Ic. It didn't go unnoticed, as katina said "why slosh 5 on et"? If I was scum I would be worrying about those vote counts and if the town was thinking of switching things up. What's Ur current opinion of sloosh? Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Because it's easy to realize that we can go for a Wiggles+Katina+sandro lynch (me and MZ put all of our votes on Wiggles/Katina, so we can easily take those out). I was thinking that perhaps the Harimoto's would freak out if Katina/Wiggles are Harimoto, and secretly give votes to them to avoid them dying, or pushing us to save them, or something. It most likely won't work directly, but we at least we can scare scum and maybe they'll slip or something. Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I don't exactly see how it will scare ppl since they all at 11, but whatever floats your boat. I thought the phony sheet had them at 6 each or something along those lines. Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah vote like that. You know what we planned, we are trying to scare scum into outing themselves, but in the end sandro will be the lynch no matter what (since me/you/MZ will vote as stated in the spreadsheet) Original Message From EchelonTee: Do I follow the votes here? I am going to be on a flight for most of tomorrow and have to submit my votes early. I'm on board with the plan; it doesn't seem too risky and it will still guarantee sandroba's death.
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak Yeah I was thinking the same thing. As long as there are no night kills, you me and ET will always have enough votes to influence it how we want at this point. And if ET ends up being scum then you and I will still win. Actually, with no night kills, even if one of you/me/ET is scum it'll end up being a stalemate. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: I was thinking about just trying to get a multilynch on Katina/Wiggles/sloosh at the same time and just get it over with. Like, have a majority of (me or you or ET)+Wiggles+Katina+sloosh, and have EVERYBODY give votes to the one from our "trio". Katina/Wiggles/sloosh would get 0 votes and all die. The problem is that if there are 2 Harimotos there, they will give 5 votes to each other and survive. That's risky since it would lead us to 3-2, and we would lose if there isn't a night kill. However, if my speculation is right and scum don't have any KP whatsoever by now, then we can still get those 2 lynched, even if they out themselves. Or something like that. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Well all I can say is that I think our plan worked :D. It's certainly stirred up the folks who thought they were gonna just ride this one home. You do realize that you and I can just kill everyone if we have to and win like that. I'm not gonna bring it up in the thread but it is a viable strategy. Original Message From gonzaw:
So now Katina is creating distrust in our group, and she thinks sloosh is "town" again without stating any reason whatsoever.
Just like what sloosh did.
*sigh* Maybe they are in fact scumbuddies...so that means Wiggles is town?
I find it hard to believe Wiggles is town, but damn.
Let's wait until sandro flips though, I don't want to make hasty conclusions right now (and we have all Night 7 to discuss anyways)
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B sloosh] +By sloosh
I'm putting this here for future reference - I think with Mr Wiggles last post we can glean the remaining scum according to family analysis. I'll be doing it tomorrow when I have time - I think he is putting sandroba fixedly in the Yokoya team for a reason.
The PM title is katina because it bears information on her possible family alignment if she were scum. Either way I'm going to be careful in thread not to give away my stance because no doubt the remaining scum are trying to get me on their side seeing as it is more feasible than cracking into the trio and gaining trust in that way.
In any case, no need to respond to this. I'll do analysis by tomorrow.
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B Meapak] +By Meapak Sorry for being away for the past day or so, was at a friends house. Anyway I'm fairly certain wiggled is scum as well. That leaves sloosh and katina. I would love to kill katina just for being an idiot but being stupid doesn't necessarily mean you're scum. Here's the thing, sloosh has been at least engaged with the game. He's supported us initially but then backed off after prpl flipped now he's willing to play ball again since we've flipped sandro. I get the vibe that he's new and just doesn't want wool pulled over his eyes. Since our trio has been fairly self contained I see a perfect opportunity for Katina to turn him against us. And that brings us to katina. We all have called her town due to foolishness and she's ridden that hard. She seems extremely disinterested unlike sloosh. She has literally done nothing, and with sansro's flip, her tunneling of palmar isn't even bussing any more and instead blind luck. Right now I feel katina is much more likely to be scum. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Got another PM from sloosh
*previous PM from sloosh*
So now he backs off from his town read on Katina.
I don't really know what to think about their "reaction", and sloosh wanting to give Katina votes, etc.
I mean, they can't be scumbuddies, so if one of them is scum why risk doing something stupid to save another guy from a different faction?
The only thing I could think of is perhaps they are scum from different factions and were able to communicate somehow (and are working together to destroy our "circle" first).
Although that seems unlikely. Maybe one of them is town and just overreacted, and the other one reacted in the same way to "buddy" up with that other townie or something
*sigh* We can't really analyse voting patterns too much right now.
sandro and Palmar voted the opposite every single day except for 2 days:
Day 3 and Day 6.
On Day 3 the other unconfirmed player on their side is ET, and we know he's town so that doesn't give us any info.
Then there is Day 6. But remember that on Day 6 we forced sloosh/Katina/prplhz/Wiggles to vote like we wanted to. sandro is the only one that was free to vote like he wanted (Palmar already voted NO by that point). So perhaps he would have voted to make a 2-1 split? In that case Wiggles would be their scumbuddies, but I can't shake the feeling that sandro just thought that he would be the lynch alone so the whole scumteam voted 3 NO to confuse us later
In the Yokoya department:
While BC was alive, chaoser and BC voted differently each day, so we can't analyse much those days.
However, chaoser was alive for 2 days later. We can assume they would split the vote 1-1 to maximize the chances of staying alive.
However, unless ET is his scumbuddy, then on D3 the both voted YES
So again, we can't analyze the votes too much.
Everybody was against chaoser from the beginning, and BC as well. It's likely his scumbuddy would bus him.
However, Wiggles and sloosh barely mentioned chaoser/BC throughout the whole game. sloosh started mentioning chaoser as scum like on D3 or N3 only.
Then again, we already know Katina could bus chaoser/BC (specially after chaoser got pushed by Foolishness right off the start of the game), and she didn't actively push for their lynch, she just argued with them and tried to clog up the thread a little bit (specially with BC).
I can't conclude too much about this, although it makes me think Wiggles is almost definitely scum, whether Harimoto or Yokoya, and the voting patterns/behaviour from him and flipped scum make both of them possible.
What do you think?
+ Show Spoiler [N7 Meapak (the plan)] +By Meapak This looks good, I'm with you about finishing this off all at once. Better yet, I think Sloosh will cooperate right now. Reading through this makes me wonder why scum haven't surrendered yet. And here's the thing, even if you and ET are both scum, at this point you're from separate teams, even if we kill everyone and it's just us three it'll be a stalemate. I really hope scum take the opportunity to surrender like you outlined. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Okay, I thought about it and I think I tweaked the previous plan to make it work (I'll just post it all so I can PM ET this):
The plan is to kill all 3 of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh.
You 2 are town and I'm sure of that, and I don't want to waste hours and hours determining if Wiggles is Harimoto or Yokoya for instance, and just kill them all to finally end this game.
Here is what I was thinking.
Phase A:
On Round A, we force people to vote like this:
NO: gonzaw, sloosh, Wiggles, Katina
YES: ET, MZ
Premise: The townie out of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina will cooperate with us and follow the plan
This means that the votes will be like this:
NO:: gonzaw, townie
YES: ET, MZ
There are 3 options for the remaining 2 scum:
Both vote NO:
Then they will follow the plan and be both in the majority. See Phase B
Both vote YES:
In this case both scum will try to "beat" the system and try to survive by trying to be in the minority. However, in this case both scum will be OUTED, and the votes will end like this:
NO: gonzaw, townie
YES: ET, MZ, Yokoya, Harimoto
The YES will be majority, with both scum in it, and both will be in it, so we can kill both of them by just letting them have 0 votes and giving all of them to ET/MZ. If 1 of them saves the other one, then we kill him on the next day
One votes NO:
In this case, 1 scum will try to survive by voting NO and screw with us, while the other is scared enough (or just surrenders) and follows the plan. In this case the votes are like this:
NO: gonzaw, townie, Scum
YES: ET, MZ, Scum
It will be a draw, so the Round B will be done again. However, the scum that voted YES will be outed and we can single-handily kill him that Round B.
After we kill him, we make a similar plan the next day to kill the remaining 2 players out of the group to get the final scum
Phase B:
We have EVERYBODY put their 5 votes on me (I'm in the majority).
The votes will be like this:
me: 25 votes
Katina: 0 votes
Wiggles: 0 votes
sloosh: 0 votes
I'll put my votes on ET for instance and they won't count. sandroba was allowed to make illegal votes the other day and didn't receive any warning, so I assume we are allowed to do that and there's no problem in that.
There are various options here:
Both scum follow the plan:
Then both will put their 5 votes on me, and they will both die. We win the game in this scenario
1 scum follows the plan, but another one doesn't:
This means that 1 scum will, for instance put 2 votes on Wiggles and make 2 illegal votes (or something).
However, since the other scum follows the plan and gave me 5 votes, the scum that didnt follow the plan will die since nobody will give votes to him.
If that scum decided to save the townie out of the group: Then great BOTH scum will die but the townie will live
If that scum decided to save the other scum: Then 1 scum and 1 townie will die. The other scum will be apparent and we can kill him the next day with ease
Both scum decide to not follow the plan:
In this case they will give votes to someone else for instance.
There are various scenarios, but I'll divide them in 2:
**They save each other and let the townie win:
In this case, both scum will survive and the townie will die. However, later it will be 3-2 with 2 outed scum. Again, assuming there are no night kills, we can easily kill them both
They don't save each other:
Then at least 1 of them will die, and then it's the same as before (we kill the remaining one)
The thing in our favour, is that ** is unlikely to happen.
Why? Because the scum belong to different factions
For both of them to save each other, they have to:
1)Both have to accurately deduce who the other scum is
2)Both have to decide to save each other (if one of them just surrenders and doesn't save the other one, then we'll win)
I think these 2 are very unlikely, so I think there is like a 10% chance it will happen.
You know why I think this will work?
Because it gives scum a chance to surrender
What does a scum have to do to surrender? They just have to vote NO, and put their 5 votes on me. They have to do nothing else.
I think both scum know they will likely lose, so I think they will take the chance and just end the game as soon as possible, so I think there is a high chance that:
-They either surrender officially (asking Protact and all that shit). Although I don't know if this is possible with 2 scum teams
-Or they just surrender in thread and let us kill them
What do you think?
Oh yeah, we can do this is no Night kill happens tonight (and in next days).
I don't think scum have any KP, if so they would have used them by now. I mean, they basically lost already, if they had some KP at all they would have used it already.
Also, the worst case scenario is that there is 1 scum in our "trio" (although I heavily doubt that).
In that case, we will kill all 3 of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina, but arrive at 2-1 Night 8.
If there are no night kills, then even then we have another chance to figure out the scum out of the 3 of us, so we can still win.
But again, I don't think that will happen at all, but that's the worst case scenario and we can still win in it, so I think this plan is good.
Most of all, I just want to fucking end this game once and for all >_>
Like, if we start lynching scum 1 by 1, we'll end in Day 14 or something. It feels like 1 month since this game started, so let's just end this.
+ Show Spoiler [N7 ET] +By ET re-reading Katina, I'd rate her more scummy than M_Z. I really think sloosh is townie though, but triple killing sloosh/wiggles/katina is an OK idea. I'll re-read it again to make sure there aren't holes in it. I kind of doubt that we will be able to get a clean triple kill off (due to unaccounted votes and w.e), but the plan doesn't look too bad. be back in a bit. fingers crossed for flip Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I thought of a plan to win this game by tomorrow. It hinges on there not being scum kills tonight, and maybe on next days. However, I think scum don't have any more KP so I think it will work. I'll just post what I sent MZ: Hide nested quote -
Okay, I thought about it and I think I tweaked the previous plan to make it work (I'll just post it all so I can PM ET this):
The plan is to kill all 3 of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh.
You 2 are town and I'm sure of that, and I don't want to waste hours and hours determining if Wiggles is Harimoto or Yokoya for instance, and just kill them all to finally end this game.
Here is what I was thinking.
Phase A:
On Round A, we force people to vote like this:
NO: gonzaw, sloosh, Wiggles, Katina
YES: ET, MZ
Premise: The townie out of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina will cooperate with us and follow the plan
This means that the votes will be like this:
NO: gonzaw, townie
YES: ET, MZ
There are 3 options for the remaining 2 scum:
Both vote NO:
Then they will follow the plan and be both in the majority. See Phase B
Both vote YES:
In this case both scum will try to "beat" the system and try to survive by trying to be in the minority. However, in this case both scum will be OUTED, and the votes will end like this:
NO: gonzaw, townie
YES: ET, MZ, Yokoya, Harimoto
The YES will be majority, with both scum in it, and both will be in it, so we can kill both of them by just letting them have 0 votes and giving all of them to ET/MZ. If 1 of them saves the other one, then we kill him on the next day
One votes NO:
In this case, 1 scum will try to survive by voting NO and screw with us, while the other is scared enough (or just surrenders) and follows the plan. In this case the votes are like this:
NO: gonzaw, townie, Scum
YES: ET, MZ, Scum
It will be a draw, so the Round B will be done again. However, the scum that voted YES will be outed and we can single-handily kill him that Round B.
After we kill him, we make a similar plan the next day to kill the remaining 2 players out of the group to get the final scum
Phase B:
We have EVERYBODY put their 5 votes on me (I'm in the majority).
The votes will be like this:
me: 25 votes
Katina: 0 votes
Wiggles: 0 votes
sloosh: 0 votes
I'll put my votes on ET for instance and they won't count. sandroba was allowed to make illegal votes the other day and didn't receive any warning, so I assume we are allowed to do that and there's no problem in that.
There are various options here:
Both scum follow the plan:
Then both will put their 5 votes on me, and they will both die. We win the game in this scenario
1 scum follows the plan, but another one doesn't:
This means that 1 scum will, for instance put 2 votes on Wiggles and make 2 illegal votes (or something).
However, since the other scum follows the plan and gave me 5 votes, the scum that didnt follow the plan will die since nobody will give votes to him.
If that scum decided to save the townie out of the group: Then great BOTH scum will die but the townie will live
If that scum decided to save the other scum: Then 1 scum and 1 townie will die. The other scum will be apparent and we can kill him the next day with ease
Both scum decide to not follow the plan:
In this case they will give votes to someone else for instance.
There are various scenarios, but I'll divide them in 2:
**They save each other and let the townie win:
In this case, both scum will survive and the townie will die. However, later it will be 3-2 with 2 outed scum. Again, assuming there are no night kills, we can easily kill them both
They don't save each other:
Then at least 1 of them will die, and then it's the same as before (we kill the remaining one)
The thing in our favour, is that ** is unlikely to happen.
Why? Because the scum belong to different factions
For both of them to save each other, they have to:
1)Both have to accurately deduce who the other scum is
2)Both have to decide to save each other (if one of them just surrenders and doesn't save the other one, then we'll win)
I think these 2 are very unlikely, so I think there is like a 10% chance it will happen.
You know why I think this will work?
Because it gives scum a chance to surrender
What does a scum have to do to surrender? They just have to vote NO, and put their 5 votes on me. They have to do nothing else.
I think both scum know they will likely lose, so I think they will take the chance and just end the game as soon as possible, so I think there is a high chance that:
-They either surrender officially (asking Protact and all that shit). Although I don't know if this is possible with 2 scum teams
-Or they just surrender in thread and let us kill them
What do you think?
Oh yeah, we can do this is no Night kill happens tonight (and in next days).
I don't think scum have any KP, if so they would have used them by now. I mean, they basically lost already, if they had some KP at all they would have used it already.
Also, the worst case scenario is that there is 1 scum in our "trio" (although I heavily doubt that).
In that case, we will kill all 3 of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina, but arrive at 2-1 Night 8.
If there are no night kills, then even then we have another chance to figure out the scum out of the 3 of us, so we can still win.
But again, I don't think that will happen at all, but that's the worst case scenario and we can still win in it, so I think this plan is good.
Most of all, I just want to fucking end this game once and for all >_>
Like, if we start lynching scum 1 by 1, we'll end in Day 14 or something. It feels like 1 month since this game started, so let's just end this.
I know you kind of think MZ is scum, but I'm pretty sure he's town.
Even if MZ is scum, then like I said there, it will end up with a 2-1 standoff between you, me and MZ.
We can figure out who is the scum between us in that case, so even in that worst case scenario we can still win.
Like I said, I doubt that will happen though.
+ Show Spoiler [D8 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak Sweet! Let's get this done with. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
Okay, got an answer from Protact:
Both scum teams have to agree to surrender for it to take place. If one team decides to surrender, but the other one doesn't, then the game still goes on.
Maybe that's what likely happened (hell maybe both scum teams don't want to surrender by now somehow)
Also, ET says he agrees with our plan, but he'll look at it harder first (to find holes and shit).
I think we are ready to go.
+ Show Spoiler [D8 Round A ET] +By ET I'm fine with it. It forces scum to react, and when scum have to do things to try and avoid deaths, it exposes them more. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw:
I'm writing the "plan post" right now, and I'll end it in a few minutes.
If you have any questions shoot them now okay? Because if not I'd have already posted the plan by then
+ Show Spoiler [D8 Round A sloosh] +By sloosh
As I said in thread, I'll comply, its the fastest/cleanest way to finish it, and I'm pulled to a null read on katina so I'm fine with that.
This is a side point but I'd stay away from meta and keep to raw analysis - I've played with ET in SMMVII? and you see day 1 where we go for each other's throats. But whatever, you don't have to care about this unless there is a day 8 (or 9 I lost count).
+ Show Spoiler [D8 Round A Meapak] +By Meapak Fair enough, I hadn't really considered the fact that wiggles has basically given up already. I'm sending in my votes for you now. Show nested quote +Original Message From gonzaw: Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh:
I would like to put five votes on sloosh.
Here's why, I'm very sure that wiggles and katina are scum and I think the thread accepts that as well. My fear is that they vote for each other which'll leave sloosh out cold to die. This'll just drag the game on for yet another day. On the other hand, if sloosh is scum, we've still killed a scum between wiggles and katina. At worst it'll send us into the next day with one scum remaining instead of two possible. At best we win the game.
I don't think this is such a good idea.
I've been thinking about this for some time, and about each scum and what they would do, and I think I've got a good grasp on things, and I think following the plan will be the best option.
Also, you giving sloosh 5 votes isn't that good, because I need both your and ET's 5 votes on me.
Imagine this scenario:
-sloosh is scum
-Wiggles gives his 5 votes to sloosh because he thinks sloosh is town
-Katina and sloosh give 5 votes to each other
In that case, ET would give me 5 votes, you'd give sloosh 5 votes, and I'd get lynched.
I know it's not likely, but I don't want to take any chances, so I'd prefer you and ET giving me your 5 votes each, or at least to take me to the "safe vote amount" of 8 votes.
Anyways, I'll tell you all my thoughts I had since Round A or so about this situation (beware, they are too many! ):
I agree that Wiggles and Katina are most likely the scum team, but I'm very paranoid at this moment about sloosh.
He's very cooperative with this plan all of a sudden, and a voice in the back of my head tells me he's acting very "town-like" right now just so we can do something like you planned (and save him today). I know it's not likely, but I don't want to unnecessary prolong this game any longer if sloosh were to be scum.
Also, if Wiggles and Katina were in fact scum, I doubt they'd give each other votes.
Mostly because I don't think them, or at least BOTH would be willing to continue this game.
This game hasn't ended yet in a scum surrender, which means that at least 1 of the scum teams didn't surrender yet.
Without loss of generality, let's assume one scum already surrendered (most likely Wiggles tbh).
This means the other scum didn't surrender yet.
I've been thinking about this and I've come up with 2 reason why they wouldn't:
1)They still think they have a chance to win, or want to "fight back" all they can
2)Because of principle
I could see scum doing (2). For instance, I don't think I'd surrender as scum, even if it be "obvious" I'd die and lose. There's always a chance anything can happen and turns the game around, so I wouldn't do it. I could see a scum not surrendering just to "see what happens", hoping for a miracle or sorts.
If not, then the option would be (1). The point is that scum haven't surrendered for now. It makes me think that scum may want to stall, and try to create an option to win the game by themselves.
When I saw Katina make that ridiculous post of hers, I thought something like that. Perhaps she doesn't want to surrender just yet, because she thinks she can get some people against our circle, and perhaps survive somehow (like she tried to do with sloosh by PMing him for instance).
If she hasn't surrendered by now, it's because she may still think that that strategy would work, I don't think she hasn't surrendered by now because she plans on giving Wiggles any votes.
If the day still goes on and we make it sure to Katina that she will die, then I think she'll do surrender by that point, and either surrender officially, or just follow the plan and die without surrendering (because of point (2) ).
I've made the plan to discourage scum to do exactly that. Each scum NEEDS the other scum for them to survive today.
Now, imagine you are scum, and you decide to save the other scum to create this "situation". Why would the other scum try to save you then? You already saved him, why would he keep you around?
It's like a Prisoners Dilemma of sorts. Each scum needs complete cooperation with each other to do this.
Considering both scum lost anyways, and maybe 1 of them most likely surrendered, I don't see any reason (other than fucking with us just because) for them to do that.
For instance, I think Wiggles has a good chance of being Harimoto (specially because of sandro's 5 votes on him last day). He's been very silent these days, hasn't really fought back or anything. It makes me think that perhaps his team already surrendered by now, or if he hasn't (because of (2)) then he would still just follow the plan and die.
Another thing I was thinking, was that if a scum really wanted to survive, they would have voted YES yesterday.
I mean, if you are scum, then voting YES means that you force a draw. You can then pull the "offended townie" that wants to "show people the truth" and get "the scum circle of gonzaw/ET/MZ killed" (or whoever they FoS from us). If they really wanted to win, I think they would have at least tried that.
They wouldn't have just voted NO and then done almost nothing since.
Katina perhaps voted because she realized she couldn't win, or maybe because she wants to convince someone to not follow the plan and maybe give her votes (maybe she's still PMing with sloosh or something).
The point is that I doubt Wiggles and Katina will give votes to each other.
This brings me to my other point:
If sloosh is scum, then I think he'll follow the plan as well. If he's scum I think he'll just try to act all "townie" so we try to save him. If this is true, then he won't give Wiggles/Katina votes.
In this case, not giving sloosh any votes ends the game today
If we give him votes, then we need to play another day here.
If sloosh is town, then I doubt Wiggles/Katina will give votes to each other, so if we don't give sloosh votes they'll still die and we'll win.
Even in the "worst case scenario" that Wiggles/Katina give each other votes (which like I said I seriously doubt), we'll be in a 3-2 D9 and we can kill both. If they are scum, they know this, and they know they'll die, and they also know that it will prolong the game to Day 10.
I'm sure they don't want that, or if not at least I hope I could have convinced them not to by that post I made with the plan.
I think this plan has that covered. Even if sloosh is scum, I think we'll win today. If he's town and WIggles/Katina are scum, then I think we'll win today as well.
The worst case in my mind is 1 of Katina/Wiggles giving votes to each other, but not the other one (I really doubt both will cooperate, because of previous reasons). In this case only 1 of them will survive, and then we lynch him alone next day if we haven't won.
After I told you the plan I was planning for this to happen, which is why I thought the plan would work on it's own without modifying it at all.
Like I said, I don't want to needlessly prolong this game any longer, it's getting bored as fuck (I think the thread got only 5 pages larger since Day 4 or something).
I think we've put the cards into the table to win today and have both scum surrender, or just end up following the plan. Giving sloosh votes makes it more possible that we'll need to play another day to win than if we don't.
There's also the fact that we won't be able to control the thread that much after we don't follow the plan ourselves, and after I said the whole "If you don't follow the plan you are confirmed scum" thing from before.
+ Show Spoiler [N8 ET, aka my brain fart] +By gonzaw What does "trusting you too fast" have anything to do with it? Do you mean that I was too fast to trust scum or something? If you want to see my reasons for trusting you, wbg, Foolishness, etc earlier then reread the thread. I tried to figure out which of you made sense as Harimoto or Yokoya to try and find the remaining townie. You didn't make too much sense as Yokoya, specially because you wanted to save Wiggles on Day 4 and let chaoser to die alone (you could have easily NOT made that "Wiggles is town" read on the fly and kill Wiggles instead of chaoser). However, after thinking you could be Harimoto, I realised that sandro gave chaoser 4 votes that day. Why the hell would he do that? Either he wanted to save chaoser because he thought he was scum (and wanted to get a townie lynched instead), or he may have wanted people to think he was chaoser's scumbuddy. I also remember you having quite a change of heart on Wiggles and desperately wanting to save him, which would make sense if you guys wanted chaoser to die instead of Wiggles by that point (and having the thread believe sandro was Yokoya). After that you haven't been attached to plans or anything, me and MZ just PMed you about them and told you what to do. It felt weird when the only thing you did was say "K I sent my votes" and nothing else. Meapak is certainly town (it's no use trying to hide it from scum now though, if I already think sloosh is scum you should already know it). He was just so active in PMs with me, and tried very hard to coordinate the plans with me as well. Compared to your contributions since then I can't see him as scum. Tell me then why you think I'm scum ET, just because I could pull something like this off if I am? Also what do you mean by "pulling this off"? What is "this"? And are you saying I can't "pull it off" as townie either? What am I? Yokoya or Harimoto? Why? Show nested quote +Original Message From EchelonTee: I'm almost certain you're scum. You're the only player I know who could pull off something like this. I still remembver SoaF lol, where you bussed all your mates and acted completely townie. The only minor slips you've had are trusting me too fast, and your flip-flop on sloosh. If you were townie, why wouldn't you be extensively talking with me and MZ to figure out our alignments? Feel free to tell me why you think I'm mafia, but you're better off finding the real scum and working with them. I'm pretty sure I've found the townie. Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: Are you scum? I've been thinking up scenarios all over in my head about you/MZ/sloosh being possible Yokoya/Harimoto, and I found only one possible scenario and you are scum in it. I just can't find MZ as neither Yokoya nor Harimoto. Original Message From EchelonTee:
.............................................................................................................
are you scum? you trusted me a little too fast in the beginning.
+ Show Spoiler [N8 Meapak] +By gonzaw
I've been thinking about this and I think I have a plan that may or may not work for us. If I find the remaining townie, then at best we win, and at worst we draw.
I've been thinking all possible scenarios and rereading the thread/PMs based on them.
I find sloosh basically confirmed scum at this point. He could either be Yokoya or Harimoto I'm not sure, but his silence right now basically condemns him.
Now, I tried to see if you could be Harimoto or Yokoya, and I found it was pretty much impossible for you to be either:
Yokoya- If you were Yokoya you wouldn't have let chaoser die on D4 alone. Wiggles was your scumread at that point, you could have swayed me/ET to get him lynched alone in some way
Harimoto- If you were Harimoto, then you wouldn't have done that Palmar+prplhz+sandro lynch plan. You knew sandro would have been likely the sole lynch. That would have been the best case for you, since Palmar would have still been alive, and you could have made plans to get WIggles/Katina/prplhz/sloosh lynched first later (multilynch for instance). Instead you made a plan to get Palmar lynched, and he actually followed the plan and died.
I reread ET's behaviour and actions and I believe him to be Harimoto.
But I still don't know if I should trust you.
What are your thoughts about this?
Damn, yeah I don't know if I should include those PMs here when I get to that part >_>
Hey Ver/Incognito, any thoughts about my play in late-game (from Day 8 onwards)? I know I fucked up with my scum read on sloosh/Katina/basically everybody alive, but I want to know what I could have done better and stuff.
Also, I really need to see Harimoto's Scum QT, and I want to know wtf happened when sandro outed Palmar to us >_>
To anyone not knowing:
On Day 4 Round B, chaoser PMed sandro to get sandro to give chaoser some votes to get him saved.
sandro said he'd give him 4 votes because he needed to give 1 vote to Palmar, and he told chaoser to give 5 votes to Palmar.
chaoser told him that Palmar was town so his votes didn't matter, and asked him for more votes.
sandro then told him that he should ask his scumbuddy to give him 5 votes (chaoser initially said that his buddy could give him 5 votes.... >_>).
chaoser told him that his buddy could not give him any more votes, and that he needed 6 or so votes to survive the lynch today.
sandro kept insisting on only giving him 4 votes and putting the rest on Palmar
chaoser still insisted in asking him why giving votes on Palmar, if Palmar was town
sandro told chaoser Palmar was his scumbuddy
sandro then basically said that he'd give chaoser 4 votes and nothing else
After that, sandro did indeed give 4 votes to chaoser and 1 to Palmar, and chaoser gave 5 votes to Palmar on request of me.
We didn't buy that Palmar scum claim at all because it was absolutely innecessary basically, since I think chaoser told sandro that someone else had given Palmar votes.
Since chaoser's votes were basically useless, I told him to follow through and give Palmar 5 votes so the other team "thought" we were cooperating and shit [/quote][/quote]
Was that intentional or not? Really, I thought ET was basically confirmed town because of that.
Also...Palmar was killed on Day 6 because of an "accident" with Harimoto's votes? >_>
I almost thought ET was town because of that as well, but I instantly thought "No, if ET was scum then he would tell Palmar to follow the plan, if not we would instantly know there is a leak in our circle".
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EPT
