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On October 02 2013 00:49 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 00:37 herMan wrote:On October 01 2013 23:46 evilfatsh1t wrote:
its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game. It's not a failure if it isn't as huge as broodwar was at its peak. Starcraft 2 is big globally but just not at the level BW was in Korea. MOBA is the next big thing, resulting in Proleague shifting towards LoL more. Most of the people wanting someone to retire is for selfish reasons (wanting them to play bw again), not because they are heartbroken how they suffer from playing this rotten ridiculous game called sc2. We don't like it when our beloved player plays a game they don't like. We don't like it when we know they've worked so hard to be on the A-team just to play a sequel when the fans that support the scene doesn't like. We don't like it when they're being forced to play a game they didn't have passion for it.
I don't know what your second point means. Starcraft 2 fans don't even like the game? Or that every sc2 fan would prefer broodwar if it came back, implying that they all used to follow bw before sc2? I don't believe either one and but hey that's just my opinion.
Otherwise you have fair points. I'm just calling out all the people who want players like Jaedong or Flash to switch back even though they have had great results after transitioning.
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jaedong might have had ok results, but flash has definitely not had great results. you clearly didnt follow the bw scene, because otherwise you would know that players of jaedong and flash's calibre are capable of so much more.
and the fans not supporting the scene is the stadiums being empty and overall interest being hella low. id also be willing to bet that a vast majority of sc2 players around the world dont even follow the pro scene. they might play the game, but they have no interest in professional games or players because they just play casually etc.
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Even though I did not follow the scene then, I know enough about Flash's history. He hasn't had that much success yet in individual leagues and Flash himself has said he has obvious weaknesses in his play. But you cannot disregard his most wins trophy in the last Proleague season. I'd give him some more time to prove himself.
I agree that he's nowhere near his God status in bw but nobody has dominated this game for a long period of time yet.
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After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote:
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
I think it's due to SCII's decrease in popularity in Korea. It's nowhere near BW's popularity and then some of the players are left questioning what's the point of getting better if there's no audience to play for. Also, it's possible some aren't satisfied with the game seeing as how the races play completely differently from BW.
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On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote:
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
I don't know about that, Daigo looks as strong as he has ever been :p (ok almost as strong :/)
As for SC2, i feel it's just overall a more volatile game, thus making it hard for players to establish dominance. 2 years worth of domination? Doesn't look possible w SC2. Whereas in BW we have a few: 4, 5 if u count TBLS as a whole (nvr considered Flash a Bonjwa myself.. he especially never really dominated Stork).
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On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote:
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16
2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8
2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
**SC2 Switch**
2013 WCS Season 1: Eliminated in the Round of 16
2013 WCS Season 2: Eliminated in the Round of 16
2013 WCS Season 3: Eliminated in the Round of 16
(And they say you can't be consistent in SC2!)
These are not bad results at all, but for a player people were calling God even months after he switched to SC2, they're still not that great, in either game. Flash's time as Bonjwa ended in BW, and if the scene had been healthy, he'd have been surpassed by now. He still wins a lot (he was MVP in Proleague for a reason), and still shows up in major tournaments, but his best days are behind him, and this'd be true without an SC2 switch as well.
Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
The best KeSPA players in SC2 are Soulkey, Rain, and Bogus, none of whom were B-teamers. B-teamers dominated until the KeSPA switch, and now it's either BW A-teamers or SC2 players who weren't BW players. Polt is the only WC3 player who's really doing well in SC2.
But, I think it's simply that
A.) A lot of KeSPA pros don't like SC2 (the ones that did switched long before KeSPA did)
B.) A lot of A-teamers don't like that they're not better than everyone anymore, and this is demoralizing them further.
C.) It's easy to get into a "this game sucks because I'm bad at it because this game sucks" feedback loop, which is fatal. (IdrA was the only player to do this openly and often, but I imagine a lot of players felt the same)
D.) SC2, and especially SC2 protoss, has a different skill set than BW. BW was a lot more mechanical, but SC2 you win by decision making. That's why some players can be mechanically superb and then suck for a while if the metagame changes (See: Innovation). While there are SC2 players who are mechanically superior (Scarlett!), you can't rely on pure mechanics as much. Like, Flash could beat any B player on ICCUP without reacting to his opponent at all. He'd just do his thing and crush on pure mechanics without even needing to think about anything. Harder to do that in SC2. People tend to talk about SC2 like mechanics/APM don't matter at all, which is kind of an exaggeration, but no one can deny it matters less than BW, the most mechanically intensive game ever made. While Scarlett is mechanically superb, she has "only" 190 APM or so, IIRC. That's really fast for most people, but the difference between 200 APM and 300 APM was the world in BW. In SC2 it's a much smaller edge.
(Not to imply BW didn't have decision making. But if I only had 150 APM it didn't matter if I outsmarted Flash, he'd beat me anyway)
On October 02 2013 04:03 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote:
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc. I don't know about that, Daigo looks as strong as he has ever been :p (ok almost as strong :/) As for SC2, i feel it's just overall a more volatile game, thus making it hard for players to establish dominance. 2 years worth of domination? Doesn't look possible w SC2.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mvp_(player)
January 2011 - Wins GSL
May 2011 - Wins GSL
August 2011 - Wins GSL
August 2011 - Wins MLG
October 2011 - Second place in GSL (which was a one-month tournament back then)
October 2011 - Wins Blizzcon
December 2011 - Wins WCG
That was back when the SC2 scene declared whoever most recently won a game to be the NEXT BONJWA, but MVP dominated 2011 pretty thoroughly (and anything he didn't win that year, Zergbong did), and won some major tournaments in 2012 as well
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On October 01 2013 05:51 Pisko. wrote:
I'm glad he retired from SC2, it was depressing watching him force himself to play a game he clearly didn't like.
I hope every progamer that feels this way does the same.
Let's make SSL bigger!
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DES promised additional Bisu interview content today, but these two pieces are all that I see on their page, so I guess this is all they were talking about.
First one:
+ Show Spoiler +Kim Taek-Yong: "Coach Lim Yo-Hwan, I'm very sorry"Kim Taek-Yong (Bisu), who retired recently, expressed his apologies to former SK Telecom T1 coach Lim Yo-Hwan (Boxer). He said, "Shorty after my retirement, I heard that coach Lim Yo-Hwan had left the team. It felt like he had left because of me, so I felt bad about it." Lim Yo-Hwan's care for Kim Taek-Yong was extraordinary. Placing importance on elements beyond just match results, he placed great expectations upon Kim Taek-Yong. He had even given him the title "Post Lim Yo-Hwan". When Lim Yo-Hwan took the role of SK Telecom's head coach, his most urgent priority was to get Kim Taek-Yong back on track. Last season of Proleague, in order to improve Kim Taek-Yong's results in Starcraft 2, he told him, "I won't send you out in rounds 2 and 3, so prepare well for Heart of the Swarm." Kim Taek-Yong was well aware that Lim Yo-Hwan was investing a great deal in reviving him. In order to respond to this trust, he stayed up late practicing for Heart of the Swarm. However, the results were not good, and even up to the moment of retirement, Kim Taek-Yong was very sorry toward Lim Yo-Hwan who had placed so much trust in him. He was not able to tell him, and it stayed in his mind even after leaving the team. Kim Taek-Yong said, "To coach Lim Yo-Hwan who invested so much in me without hesitation, I am forever grateful and sorry. I hope that he will do well in whatever he chooses from now on." Original Article by Lee So-Ra sora@dailyesports.com
Second one:
+ Show Spoiler +Kim Taek-Yong: "Don't ignore individual leagues"Kim Taek-Yong told us of his regrets and advice regarding e-sports. Prior to his retirement, as a member of "TaekBangLeeSsang" leading the world of e-sports, Kim Taek-Yong had feelings of sadness regarding the current league system. He had the opinion that the current problems were due to an inability to satisfy the content-hungry fans. Kim Taek-Yong's first point was regarding Proleague. He said, "It's not that I don't understand the sponsors' and Kespa's point of view, but playing so many matches, the players slowly lose their personality and the fans get bored easily." Kim Taek-Yong believes that if Proleague had just one round with an appropriate number of games, StarCraft: Brood War could also have lasted longer. With a five round Proleague requiring so many games, the players tired quickly, which lowered the quality of play and also tired out the fans. Another point was, "Focusing on Proleague so much at the expense of individual leagues also caused problems." He said, "Progamers define their unique styles in individual leagues, not Proleague, so when teams and Kespa de-emphasize individual leagues, it's difficult for memorable games or unique players to come out." Kim Taek-Yong also had many regrets about the switch to StarCraft 2. Players, sponsors, and organizers all shifted their concentration to future plans, which ended up making the present situation worse and worse. "Right now, everyone needs to unite and work together, but instead they only speak outwardly about how to revive the scene, while inwardly they think, 'What will we do once everything falls apart', and so the current problems remain unsolved." "In order to overcome the current crisis, everyone working in e-sports needs to combine their strength. I hope that e-sports and StarCraft 2 events will receive so much love as to make me regret retiring." Original Article by Lee So-Ra sora@dailyesports.com
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On October 02 2013 04:19 Ribbon wrote:
but the difference between 200 APM and 300 APM was the world in BW.
(Not to imply BW didn't have decision making. But if I only had 150 APM it didn't matter if I outsmarted Flash, he'd beat me anyway)
Savior came instantly to my mind. He dominated with only 200-250 apm, while there were players with over hundred more apm.
I don't know on what level play you're talking about, but when you're on top and mechanics are close to perfect, decision making is the most important part. 150(E)APM should be enough.
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On October 02 2013 05:07 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 04:19 Ribbon wrote:
but the difference between 200 APM and 300 APM was the world in BW.
(Not to imply BW didn't have decision making. But if I only had 150 APM it didn't matter if I outsmarted Flash, he'd beat me anyway) Savior came instantly to my mind. He dominated with only 200-250 apm, while there were players with over hundred more apm. I don't know on what level play you're talking about, but when you're on top and mechanics are close to perfect, decision making is the most important part. 150(E)APM should be enough.
So is Movie and Stork, both relative lower APM.
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On October 02 2013 04:19 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote:
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated. 2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard...
2010: He also WON
2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League
2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League
2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2
2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON
The last MSL
2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League
SPL Finals Champions
19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012:
He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while:
Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals
Carried his team to Another SPL finals
19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years:
216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief.
He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6p9JApl.png)
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better to play in SRT than sc2 :D
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Thanks for the answers. I've mostly ignored the SC2 is dying meme but I guess there's some evidence to prove it's kinda true.
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I agree with everything that Bisu said is wrong with the way SC2 is currently broadcast. Back when SC2 was first picking up steam, I was saying that the amount of games and tournaments being played wasn't sustainable. Over saturating the market is terrible for the long term viability of anything. The OSL wouldn't be nearly as prestigious if it was played every month.
Less focus on individual leagues effects player perception too. It's where players made their mark; royal roaders would burst into the scene, underdogs would become heroes (Bisu vs. Savior?) and the attention on the individual made for great publicity for the game. It's similar to how professional wrestling in the US is based entirely on personalities; the stories alone that are generated by these players can be enough to drive a scene.
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On October 02 2013 05:25 R2DToss wrote:
I remember this streak well and is one of the few reasons why I don't want him to play BW anymore.
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Northern Ireland23810 Posts
On October 02 2013 02:15 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 02:07 Wombat_NI wrote:So sad  Incidentally, Bisu was streaming BW? :O Anybody got links to the VODs? all there is atm. he's streaming right now + Show Spoiler [fpvods] +
Thanks very much man, the one silverl inings of the recent retirements is the increase of FPVoDs I guess!
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On October 02 2013 06:23 Tunga wrote:
Thanks for the answers. I've mostly ignored the SC2 is dying meme but I guess there's some evidence to prove it's kinda true.
What's funny is that there is strong community support for Starcraft 2 in foreign scene. It's just the most of the pessimism comes from the Korean scene which were incompatible for Starcraft 2 to begin with but were coerced into it anyway. I doubt the game would have gotten this much bitterness and stigma had they established themselves on foreign scene only without directly affecting Brood War.
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Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
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On October 02 2013 05:25 R2DToss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 04:19 Ribbon wrote:On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote:
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated. 2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4. I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver) SPL FINALS Champions 2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%) 2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%) You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012-2013_Proleague/Statistics
http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gom?option=view&playerid=32470
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote:
Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
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