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Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months.
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On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months.
This is just my opinion. Yes and no. I feel Blizzard back then were just trying to make an awesome game. Of course there were patches made with balance in mind but only until 1.08. So BW being balanced from Blizzards perspective is a complete freak accident (can't duplicate it). However from the Korean pro scenes perspective, balance was certainly not an accident. Maps. They meticulously balanced the game through the maps (I like to call this "soft balance" as opposed to "hard balance" which is what is occurring in SC2.), so things like rush distance, expo locations, number of expos, specific features like ramps, ridges all contributed to balancing BW.
Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything...
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On October 26 2011 20:36 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. This is just my opinion. Yes and no. I feel Blizzard back then were just trying to make an awesome game. Of course there were patches made with balance in mind but only until 1.08. So BW being balanced from Blizzards perspective is a complete freak accident (can't duplicate it). However from the Korean pro scenes perspective, balance was certainly not an accident. Maps. They meticulously balanced the game through the maps (I like to call this "soft balance" as opposed to "hard balance" which is what is occurring in SC2.), so things like rush distance, expo locations, number of expos, specific features like ramps, ridges all contributed to balancing BW. Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything...
thanks for the answer 
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On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months.
Yes and no. Try playing BW on the official ladder maps. You could make the argument that BW is in fact horribly imbalanced, and the only reason Zerg is viable is because KeSPA makes maps that are ludicrously zerg-favored.
Of the three games you mentioned (BW, SC2, WC3), I'd say BW is actually the least balanced out of the box, but KeSPA made it work through map design.
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I didnt say WC3 :p
I wished the same team that made BW, made SC2...
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On October 26 2011 20:36 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
[...]
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. [...] Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything...
Please. Even without looking at the actual code, it's pretty obvious to any programming-knowledgeable person that an 2D 90s engine like the one from BW is magnitude simpler/lighter than the 3D 2010s one from SC2. If Bowder says it's too much work, it's because it is.
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there's an article about the possibility of a pro-league on fomos. LINK
I ucan't really read korean, but with the help of translate it seems like there are increasing rumors of there being a concurrent sc2 and bw pro-league for next season. They also dive into the negotiations between blizzard and kespa, although as far as I can tell most of the article is speculations and provides not much new information.
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On October 26 2011 22:01 Palmar wrote:there's an article about the possibility of a pro-league on fomos. LINKI ucan't really read korean, but with the help of translate it seems like there are increasing rumors of there being a concurrent sc2 and bw pro-league for next season. They also dive into the negotiations between blizzard and kespa, although as far as I can tell most of the article is speculations and provides not much new information.
Since I'm in a hurry, I'll just translate the title of the article:
KeSPA: 'We're thinking about SC2...' Gretech: 'As long as we reach a deal...'
Something along the lines of that.
EDIT: Now I have some time to summarize.
The rumors (as we all know) at the moment is that KeSPA wants to integrate SC2 into upcoming Proleague season. Thinking about the past, we can assume that the dispute between Blizzard and KeSPA ended when they negotiated for the BW broadcasting rights back in 2010. However, Gretech still holds the exclusive SC2 broadcasting rights in Korea, and given KeSPA and GOM's past, its unlikely that GOM will allow such things to happen.
The response from GOM, however, was different than what we expected. GOM said, "It's possible. We haven't got an official annoucement/word from KeSPA yet; however, if KeSPA comes to us with SC2 on the table, we see no problem as long as we can work out a deal between the two organizations."
(rofl summary turned into part-translation. Mods, if this is a problem due to fomos-TL translation fiasco, feel free to remove the part below the words "EDIT")
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1019 Posts
On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
The answer is most definitely yes it was just a perfect accident. It just happened to be wonderfully balanced and it just happened to be released at a time when internet cafes were beginning to boom in south korea. They never made BW thinking that it would become what it is now.
And then they started making SC2 with the idea of making it into the BW of the west and it's not working very well in terms of balance. How could it? You cannot connect peoples' brain logic the way you connect dots in order. If you release a new unit to make the game more "balanced" theres a good chance someone is going to find a way to counter it/make it useless/make it overpowered/etc etc and screw up the balance even more. It's very difficult to estimate the impact the addition of a new unit on the original 20 or 30 units.
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On October 26 2011 22:03 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:01 Palmar wrote:there's an article about the possibility of a pro-league on fomos. LINKI ucan't really read korean, but with the help of translate it seems like there are increasing rumors of there being a concurrent sc2 and bw pro-league for next season. They also dive into the negotiations between blizzard and kespa, although as far as I can tell most of the article is speculations and provides not much new information. Since I'm in a hurry, I'll just translate the title of the article: KeSPA: 'We're thinking about SC2...' Gretech: 'As long as we reach a deal...' Something along the lines of that. EDIT: Now I have some time to summarize. The rumors (as we all know) at the moment is that KeSPA wants to integrate SC2 into upcoming Proleague season. Thinking about the past, we can assume that the dispute between Blizzard and KeSPA ended when they negotiated for the BW broadcasting rights back in 2010. However, Gretech still holds the exclusive SC2 broadcasting rights in Korea, and given KeSPA and GOM's past, its unlikely that GOM will allow such things to happen. The response from GOM, however, was different than what we expected. GOM said, "It's possible. We haven't got an official annoucement/word from KeSPA yet; however, if KeSPA comes to us with SC2 on the table, we see no problem as long as we can work out a deal between the two organizations." (rofl summary turned into part-translation. Mods, if this is a problem due to fomos-TL translation fiasco, feel free to remove the part below the words "EDIT")
thanks man
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On October 26 2011 20:36 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. This is just my opinion. Yes and no. I feel Blizzard back then were just trying to make an awesome game. Of course there were patches made with balance in mind but only until 1.08. So BW being balanced from Blizzards perspective is a complete freak accident (can't duplicate it). However from the Korean pro scenes perspective, balance was certainly not an accident. Maps. They meticulously balanced the game through the maps (I like to call this "soft balance" as opposed to "hard balance" which is what is occurring in SC2.), so things like rush distance, expo locations, number of expos, specific features like ramps, ridges all contributed to balancing BW. Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything...
To add a little something... Blizzard back then had different employees which they have now left Blizzard (I believe more than a few people left due to the fact that they didn't like where the company was going, please correct me if I'm wrong~ or add in a bit more). Although I kind of agree it was an accident with the balance. Also possibly a lot of the old crew that worked on BW is gone~ same thing with D2 crew.
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I hope they have a separate events for SC1 and SC2.
SC2 is much better (I think) than BW's earlier years. However I really do think the game will require more fine tuning and better pros to replace BW. SC2 is still missing interesting maps and pro's that can successfully utilize the features of the maps.
OH Man it's nice to vent some of these stuff out.
Professional gamers should be dedicating their lives for the game. They should be good enough to express some sort of personality into the game. However, in the current era of SC2, the players are very blend. It was pretty funny listening to commentators on the last few MLG's because every player had same strength (especially zerg = macro). To me, this seems like an evidence of a game still too young to completely replace a really big scene.
I really hope they don't completely replace SC1 with SC2.
I'm surprised people think BW was an accidental perfection. OGN and MBCgame spent years figuring out the perfect map features to balance out the game. If you watch one of the very first BW pro tournaments, the natural expansion had 3 mineral patches and no gas (LOL). Island maps were interesting too.
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On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months.
I think most people look at things in the wrong light.
You can spin doctor anything.
Yes, our terminology has gotten to the point of ridiculousness and when your trying to get more people into it, more numb-minded jargon certainly won't help. When different communities start overlapping one another it gets very complex to the new guys on the block.
It's been said many times. SC : BW's success was a total fluke. No one knew what was coming and it was all about timing as well (Korea's internet infrastructure was setup the same time Hanbit released the game there).
Did you see the alpha stage of Starcraft? Totally different game and we actually have that software downloadable now.
A lot of the old boys left and started or joined other companies.
The only beef I have with game designers like D.B. is the order in which he prioritizes game design. It's no easy task.
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somebody give snm a star as quality poster... this guy has been translating BW commentaries and BW contents for a year(or more) now with surprisingly high quality and got no prop... mean while some fag in sc2 strategy got all the glory....
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On October 27 2011 00:37 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. I think most people look at things in the wrong light. You can spin doctor anything. Yes, our terminology has gotten to the point of ridiculousness and when your trying to get more people into it, more numb-minded jargon certainly won't help. When different communities start overlapping one another it gets very complex to the new guys on the block. It's been said many times. SC : BW's success was a total fluke. No one knew what was coming and it was all about timing as well (Korea's internet infrastructure was setup the same time Hanbit released the game there). Did you see the alpha stage of Starcraft? Totally different game and we actually have that software downloadable now. A lot of the old boys left and started or joined other companies. The only beef I have with game designers like D.B. is the order in which he prioritizes game design. It's no easy task.
Yep, i really don't agree with prioritizing "E-sport" and "balance across the board" over interesting gameplay.. Sure somethings might need fixing, but not without giving it serious time to manifest, and other strategies/counters to flesh out.
All in all, games should always prioritize being interesting, as far as i am concerned. That is what a game is meant to be after all, not to be the icon of E-sport or any such stuff.
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On October 27 2011 00:23 Sephy90 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 20:36 ShadeR wrote:On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. This is just my opinion. Yes and no. I feel Blizzard back then were just trying to make an awesome game. Of course there were patches made with balance in mind but only until 1.08. So BW being balanced from Blizzards perspective is a complete freak accident (can't duplicate it). However from the Korean pro scenes perspective, balance was certainly not an accident. Maps. They meticulously balanced the game through the maps (I like to call this "soft balance" as opposed to "hard balance" which is what is occurring in SC2.), so things like rush distance, expo locations, number of expos, specific features like ramps, ridges all contributed to balancing BW. Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything... To add a little something... Blizzard back then had different employees which they have now left Blizzard (I believe more than a few people left due to the fact that they didn't like where the company was going, please correct me if I'm wrong~ or add in a bit more). Although I kind of agree it was an accident with the balance. Also possibly a lot of the old crew that worked on BW is gone~ same thing with D2 crew.
Well, employees come and go like in every other company, the biggest loss was pretty much all of Blizzard North (Diablo 1&2), which was closed down because their version of D3 didn't meet Vivendi's expectations.
Afaik, a lot of the core development team for Starcraft and BW still works with Blizzard, only they are involved with WoW or is in a leading position within the company (Chris Metzen and Rob Pardo).
From what I can gather, the only person who has worked with both SC and SC2 (and pretty much all Blizzard games) is Samwise Didier, art director.
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On October 26 2011 19:09 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:13 ArvickHero wrote:On October 25 2011 19:24 hellbound wrote:On October 25 2011 13:22 chongu wrote:On October 25 2011 13:11 nalgene wrote:
There is a street fighter game that was remade with higher resolution textures at some point ( but it looked like they made changes to the game though... but they could have just kept everything the same but with only aesthetic changes... ) shouldn't be too hard to do the same for bw either... And some minor balance fixes and online capabilities. Pretty sure they've tossed ideas about making a HD version of BW hahaha. But definitely not soon enough to see it on TV/streams anymore ;_; Less graphics discussions please. I like my video games with edgy squares : P  please, don't go there. ohohohhohoho I can see it now .. Zealot build time nerf because 2gate proxy too strong at the D level, Barracks requires supply depot because proxy rax bunker rush too hard to defend at the D level, Siege Tank nerfed and marines buffed because more unit diversity is wanted in TvP, DT build time increased by 30 seconds because DT rush too strong at the D level THE POSSIBILITES ARE ENDLESS WITH BROWDER REBALANCING BW Marauders + Show Spoiler +
OMG I fuckin rofl'd hard hahahah
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From google translate:
There are rumors of an SC1 league and SC2 league in parallel. (Both at once, not one "mixed" league)
Licensing is the first issue that needs to be solved. Blizz and KeSPA not friends, but Stork, Bisu, Fantasy and Jaedong got invited to Blizzcon. GOM also has a contract, but public statements are warm to the idea.
Edit: It may not be relevant (and it's not in the article), but GOM is going to announce a change in the way GSLs are run, to offer "more chances". I doubt it's related, honestly, but there you go.
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There's actually a lot of balance whining in BW as well; it just comes in the form of maps, i.e. everything is terran favored upon release.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/IIffG.png)
