The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 50

Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

October 18 2011 17:55 GMT

#981

@absentia-- I think you're right on the money with most of that analysis. It's been quite a while since I've been able to kill a zerg or really even force him to make extra crawlers or pull drones or anything with the 3 tank push-- zergs have learned how much army to make to stop that particular timing. Idra-like mass mutalisk style is designed to have so many mutalisks that the main terran army has to stay at home (in the mid-late game) just to defend, since they can stack up and kill turrets.

Since you're in master league, chances are your macro is reasonably sharp, and it's not like "ohIU'm floating 2k minerals" or something like that that's causing you trouble in TvZ, and I'm going to assume that your unit control is also solid. If you think you need help with that, though, feel free to ask.

Some thoughts about 3 Tank Push:
You can't rely on this push to actually kill the zerg, or even deny his 3rd unless he's being really greedy. When I use this push, it's usually to kill some creep tumors (since at this point he has enough speedlings or roaches that I can't do this with hellions any more) and try to prevent him from getting creep spread. I get to the edge of creep, siege up, scan for tumors, and usually back off unless he's doing something risky and I can win right there. If he was really really rushing mutalisks, he can't use them to attack at this moment, and has to keep them around to fight the push. This push gives you the map control to take your third. On some maps like Antiga Shipyard, or Shattered Temple, you can actually take your third pretty safely and more quickly without this push, but on maps like Nerazim Crypt, Backwater Gulch, or Xel'Naga Caverns this is basically what you have to do due to the location of the 3rd.

Korean Terrans and the quick 3rd:
Taking a fast 3rd in TvZ is very map dependent. You only want to do this on maps where a quick third is relatively hard to punish, or if you know your opponent is doing the same. A lot of pro maps, like Terminus SE, or Tal'Darim Altar, have thirds in location that are close by or unblocked by rocks coupled with long rush distances-- meaning that it's easier for both sides to take third bases and harder for both sides to pressure them. On maps like Bel'shir Beach or Dual Sight, these quick thirds from terran are less common.

Fighting the Mutalisk Flock:
Against enormous flocks of mutalisk (~20 with +1 or +2 air attack) the name of the game changes. You basically can't move out of your base as long as the mutalisks have the ability to move in- they'll 2-shot or 1-shot a few turrets then basically party in your base and leave before you can get back. So there are two possible situations here:
1) The mutalisks are somewhere nearby and don't have anything on their plate-- they can enter your base at will.
2) The mutalisks have a job to do somewhere, and cannot enter your base at will, or have nothing to do but are far enough away it will take them some time to get there.

When I see pro Terrans winning TvZs against muta flocks, it's by forcing Situation 2 as much as possible. Unfortunately, you can't anticipate every drop to do damage-- if there are 2-3 spine crawlers at every mineral line, you either have to find a blind spot to shoot at the hatchery or an extractor whatever, or send 2 medivacs and MAKE a blind spot in the crawler network. The goal of a 2-medivac drop is to be big enough that lings alone can't beat it-- cowering your marines among minerals will reduce surface area enough that Zerg needs to commit either blings or mutas to kill the marines. If it's blings, you can lift back into medivacs and fly, fly away. If it's mutas, then you will lose your drop-- but his mutas are out of position.

I think the idea is that as you try get maxed on marine/tank/medivac with a thor or two and maybe some ghosts, start trading army and controlling the zerg army position by throwing away medivacs of marines at a reasonably quick rate. Unfortunately, at my level of play, which seems to be near to yours, either I or my opponent make some sort of blunder at this point in the game and it all falls apart during a major fight, leading to a rout. I feel like gradually trading marine food for ghost food is ideal, since ghosts are good against mutalisks, infestors, and broodlords, but I've never been able to handle more than 8-9 ghosts and snipe/emp effectively.

On October 18 2011 09:38 Seeker wrote:

Show nested quote +

This did save me from Banshee harasses like twice/thrice though...

There's your answer.
Consider this: if you are going factory seige expand, you are clearly going defensive. What are you vulnerable to? Air.

Any kind of aerial assault is going to tear away at u because you will lack air defenses early on.
Build turrets for sure. And make sure you start pumping units asap to fight off those air units.

TvT siege expand should actually "feel" very different than a TvZ siege expand. In TvZ, you know that any early attack has to come at your front-- zerg can't tech to mutalisk as quick as terran techs to banshee, and even if he does, he will have so few that unstimmed marines will be able to fight them anyways. In TvT, however, banshees are faster than marines and also have more range, as well as access to cloak, and can come out very fast-- air is a threat right away.

In TvT, scan to see if he gets a quick 2nd gas (and also try to catch his production facilities). In that event, you'll want fast turrets to stop doom drops and banshee harass. Otherwise, you can delay your engineering bay.

In TvZ, I usually start stim and shields before I start +1 or siege, but that's a matter of taste and build order. An early engineering bay for upgrades is great, but upgrades are even stronger when coupled with stim and shields. You don't need to worry about mutalisks until 9+ minutes at the earliest.

On October 18 2011 08:14 Seeker wrote:

Show nested quote +

]

Uploaded replays regarding my 1rax failed FE.

Umm.... I'm really confused here..... I keep getting 2 things

[/url][/url]

I'll take a look at these replays in the evening and make some videos. I'll also poke through the last few pages of this thread (since I last did video reviews of replays) and get up to date with helping everyone out.

dLKnighT

Canada735 Posts

October 18 2011 20:49 GMT

#982

Hey guys.

Plat Protoss sick of PvP and PvT so I switched to Terran.

I've been practicing solely on ladder for about 2 weeks, and I've been doing okay by myself, trying to emulate the pros I watch. However, I know that this isn't the ideal way of going about it as pros have a much better foundation set in terms of mechanics and skill

Specifically, my TvT and TvZ are non-existent. These two matchups are so different than how a Protoss would play against them (I guess that's why my TvP is good, because I can get a good read on them) that I'm having difficulty trying to adapt. TvT 80% of the time it comes down to tank wars and I don't know how to position my tanks and marines well. TvZ is most always a muta-fest and I feel like the mobility of the Terran bio army gets shut down so easily as the DPS of Mutas becomes so high that turrets and a single Thor at each base doesn't cut it anymore. I also try to do these timing pushes with a few tanks and marines to put pressure on the Zerg at around the ~10 min mark and due to my lack of knowledge in positioning my army gets rolled by banelings.

I guess my questions are:

Is there a single BO per matchup that I can work on so I'm not clutching at straws in 2/3 of the matchups?

I've noticed the defensive style of Terran against Muta Zerg, and the turtling that Terran is capable, however that leaves me in the mindset that the Zerg is capable of taking the whole map and getting a ridiculous economy up without any pressure. How do you pressure the Zerg when Mutas are out?

Lastly, when it comes to tank wars in TvT, what's a good way to break the siege line? I've heard make Ghosts and defensive nukes, but then how many do I make? I would imagine investing too heavily on them is not smart as they serve no useful purpose after the siege line is broken. Once he unsieges do I stim and run in? Do I make more Marines than Marauders? How many factories should I be using on 2 bases? 3 bases?

Thanks. :D

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

October 18 2011 21:16 GMT

#983

On October 19 2011 05:49 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
I guess my questions are:

Is there a single BO per matchup that I can work on so I'm not clutching at straws in 2/3 of the matchups?

I've noticed the defensive style of Terran against Muta Zerg, and the turtling that Terran is capable, however that leaves me in the mindset that the Zerg is capable of taking the whole map and getting a ridiculous economy up without any pressure. How do you pressure the Zerg when Mutas are out?

Lastly, when it comes to tank wars in TvT, what's a good way to break the siege line? I've heard make Ghosts and defensive nukes, but then how many do I make? I would imagine investing too heavily on them is not smart as they serve no useful purpose after the siege line is broken. Once he unsieges do I stim and run in? Do I make more Marines than Marauders? How many factories should I be using on 2 bases? 3 bases?

Thanks. :D

Welcome to playing Terran! I hope you stay a while and enjoy the race.

In TvZ I use the
(Wiki)

Reactor Hellion Expand (vs. Zerg)
This build provides early map control, a fast expansion, and allows for a comfortable transition into a marine/tank midgame.

In TvP I use the
(Wiki)

SeleCT 2 Rax Expand (vs. Protoss)
This build provides early pressure, build order win against some greedy protoss expos, a safe expansion, and a comfortable transition into a bio midgame.

In TvT I open with a
+ Show Spoiler [1 gas 1-1-1 TvT] +

10 depot
12 barracks -> constant marine production
13 refinery -> 3 on gas
15 OC
@ 100 gas: Factory
@ factory completion: starport

Either make constant hellions from the factory and a medivac from the starport for a 4-hellion scouting/harassing drop, or make a tech lab on the factory, then swap to starport for banshee production. This is safe because it's a 1-1-1 and it's the only 1-base starport rush that isn't all in. You won't be able to afford cloak, or really even siege mode or anything, but you'll have all the tech you need to defend any all in, and because you're just on 1 gas you can expo at a reasonable speed.

Pressuring a Muta Zerg:
Use marine drops to control his mutalisk position. If you drop his third or whatever, he needs to use lair tech units like hydras, mutas, or infestors to defend because otherwise you can just fly away. Use drops to get his mutas out of position, and use that opportunity to move your army up.

Fighting Tanks:
How to fight tanks depends on your composition and what part of the game you're in.

In early tank fights, having more vikings than your adversary means he can't get vision of your tanks; this Air Control lets you siege up in range of him and begin shelling before he realizes what's happened. If you get contained, you should use vikings to clear out his spotting units, then either use them to spot for your own units or make a banshee to ward his tanks away (if he's not making marines).

Dropships can also get around tank lines in the mid-map; if you're going bio heavy, drop his production facilities and kill addons, depots, factories. If he's spamming turrets (but not vikings) you can still drop him using 2-3 Point Defense Drones to create a force a landing zone in his turret line for your medivacs to get in.

Absentia

United Kingdom973 Posts

October 19 2011 20:08 GMT

#984

Thanks for the advice blazinghand.
I've seen a marked improvement in my TvZ the last couple of days.

zmansman17

United States2567 Posts

October 19 2011 20:32 GMT

#985

Blazing hand is blazing the trail for the Terran!

Note shift clicking your tanks into seige mode. This allows you to re-position / stim your bio force appropriately as you leap frog your tanks forward.

Also note that Terran is a very micro intensive race with specific BOs. Like an adroit chess player, a Terran player must memorize openings and parlay them into advantageous positions in the later game. Good luck!

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

October 20 2011 08:56 GMT

#986

Blazinghand's Replay Analysis
Alright guys, It's been a while since my last post like this, so here's deal: post a replay of you losing to something in this thread, along with your own analysis, and I'll make a 10-15 minute coaching video in which I go over your replay, along with some written notes. On deck today is upperbound, MrErikM, AKomrade, Bojas and Seeker.

On October 09 2011 14:59 upperbound wrote:
Hey all,

I need some help with regaining map control after mutas come out in TvZ. In this game, I open reactor hellion and my opponent starts ling/bling/roach cross positions on TDA. He simcities nicely so I can't get any mineral harass in, but manage to keep him holed up in his base while I harass a bit, secure my natural, and start to prepare to take a third.

However, once mutas come out, I get stuck in my base and am never quite sure when it's safe to move out. Creep spread gets pretty insane so it takes quite a long time to get to a position where I can actually take down a base. I get a little sloppy with my macro during the muta harass/taking my third and a little sloppy with my control during the first push.

After a while, the usual story on TDA of Terran getting stuck on 3 bases while zerg has about 5 or 6 happens, and after we trade armies a few times I lose.

Any advice on how to leverage the early game into a better position without totally losing map control? Thanks for all of your help.

Replay: http://drop.sc/41789

EDIT: second replay, same thing: http://drop.sc/41791

Hi upperbound,
I took a look at your replay and made a Coaching VoD:
Stream VoD Link (twitch.tv): http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/297897302
Embedded Video Link (youtube):
+ Show Spoiler +

Some non-comprehensive written notes:
1) don't get caught on a lee shore in hurricane winds; the fact that he had mutas out before you had a single thor caused you to not win despite having a 30 food advantage at one point
2) mech army's gotta stay together; hellions to defend against lings, thors against air, tanks against everything else. Getting split up in the middle of the map lost you some units you didn't need to lose
3) if you're attacking, attack into a zerg base rather than an empty base up there. use a scan if you have to to figure out where he's expoing

On October 05 2011 11:43 MrErikM wrote:
Hello,

I'm a high platinum player who is trying his hardest to get into diamond and I'm really starting to struggle. I have been reading through this thread and soaking in all the tips I see and I finally decided that it was time I grab a replay and ask for help. TvZ has been giving me nightmares. I feel like scared to do anything. It's as if they (the zergs) are everywhere at once, just waiting for me to start some kind of push so that they can throw crazy amounts of lings and banelings at me.

So here is a replay of a game that I could have won? I'm not sure because I can only guess what would have been different about this game had a few things gone different.

Here is the replay - http://drop.sc/40776

Let's say that I had dropped my marines at each overlord I saw instead of moving to his base to kill them off, and lets say that I didn't walk onto baneling landmines, would you think that's a game that I was on my way to winning? I've played some bad games, but this one was one that I thought I was playing great until it all just disappeared.

Thank you.

Hi MrErikM,
I took a look at your replay and made a Coaching VoD:
Stream VoD Link (twitch.tv): http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/297897127 [Starts at 9:00]
Embedded Video Link (youtube):
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l8DnFaVpkI&t=9m3s

Some non-comprehensive written notes:
1) scout with initial reaper; goal is scouting, not damage
2) continue scouting with said reaper. check out the main, too
3) fast double evo means ling/infestor, due to need for fast hive for fast +3
4) when dropping, kill ovies (this lets you drop more later)
5) banking thousands of minerals is bad; build more production facilities earlier so that you have the infrastructure to spend your money. Make 2x depots constantly on 2 base
6) i like to use a P fort as my third for defensive purposes
6.5) after you see burrowed banelings, get a raven
7) you lose game due to lack of third
in general against infestors (though that wasn't issue here) tanks and ghosts are good.

On October 20 2011 10:44 AKomrade wrote:
This is like the 5th time I've posted a TvP topic ><

Its my worst match up by far. I have a total win rate of 45% on ladder (150 games in the last season). There is something about the match up I absolutely don't understand, problem is, I have NO idea what it is. I understand that timing abuse is a big part, but past 13:00, what timings are there? I'd appreciate it if someone could not only review my replays for individual flaws, but give me a summary of the matchup (what I'm supposed to do).

http://drop.sc/45795 - Fast upgrades loss. Totally forgot Combat Shield (Thought I had researched it, forgot in the heat of the moment). I had good pressure early on, but couldn't finish the job. Ended up losing a maxed battle on three bases. I had 2 LATE ghosts, couple medivacs and six or so vikings. How do I adjust my composition for his army?

9:00 to 11:00 - Whats the right response to this? Is it three bunkers each time? How do I defend if I DON'T have bunkers building?

15:00 - 15:45 - I have a food advantage, should I have waited for the other reinforcements at my base? How do I turn this into a better situation?

http://drop.sc/45796 - Fast ghost five rax loss. Early pressure again, but got contained rather badly by his stalkers. Late 3rd didn't help. Should I have gone for a third faster instead of pressuring him?

9:00 to 11:15 - How do I prevent myself from being contained like this with no Starport tech? How do I defend this early game (5:00 - 7:00 Stalker pressure)?

13:50 - I engage with 15 more food, somehow lose. Should I have waited for the ghosts to EMP the sentries or push earlier?

20:20 - Is a battle like this winnable for me without vikings? What about early on, vs a one base Colossus?

I'd appreciate looks at both replays, since they're two different build orders. A lot of my games either end like they do or I'm cheesed out by heavy stalker pressure.

Do I need any work on my mechanics?

Hi AKomrade,
I took a look at your replay and made a Coaching VoD:
Stream VoD Link (twitch.tv): http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/297896882
Embedded Video Link (youtube):
+ Show Spoiler +

Some non-comprehensive written notes:
Good reaper scout-- this should have indicated 3 gate blink all-in.
However, given that you knew it was a 3 gate blink all-in, moving out with those marauders/marines was dangerous, and you're lucky he retreated and didn't go into your base
You need bunkers at your front any time you expand faster than the protoss. Especially if you scout he's all in.
Once you're contained, the game is over. You make a credible attempt to break open his nat but it's way too late.

On October 09 2011 23:20 Bojas wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think I have huge problems with zealot archon in general I just have no idea what to do.
New replay: http://drop.sc/42526

Hi Bojas,
I took a look at your replay and made a Coaching VoD:
Stream VoD Link (twitch.tv): http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/297896734
Embedded Video Link (youtube):
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9XICgkGDsE

Some non-comprehensive written notes:
1) your opponent made 3 cannons-- 450 minerals that can't attack, so you can a free third. do so.
2) dropping-- be like a zerg. with mutalisks, the goa lisn't to just deal damage (though that's ok too); your goal is control where his army is. your goal is to control his army location. lose that drop was because you were trying to deal damage rather than trying to control him
if you do lose a drop-- send another. keep his army in his base... and use this as an opportunity to trade food or get ghosts by trading out marines
Ghosts: dear sweet baby ghost emp jesus, please get moebius reactor... GET MOEBIUS REACTOR, it lets your ghosts emp right away, and yeah it's pretty good.
final fight: your opponent had 30 more food than you (400 minerals, 800 vespene) which meant you basically couldn't win that fight. you had less "army spending over the course the game than your opponent did. this is probably because you mined less, since your unspent resources are similar.

On October 18 2011 08:14 Seeker wrote:

Show nested quote +

Uploaded replays regarding my 1rax failed FE.

Umm.... I'm really confused here..... I keep getting 2 things

Hi Seeker,
My internet crashed while I was streaming your game ._.

The VoD is lost to history.

So all I have are my notes. I'll neaten them up a bit so it's legible.

How to scout VR Allin coming in TvP
+ Show Spoiler +

You scouted after 5:00:
3 gates, 2 gasses, saved chrono, STALKER AT HOME. Let's break it down. TvP is super scouting-reliant and you can usually scout protoss just by his buildings.

FIRST HINT: 3 gates, 2 gasses-- this means either a tech allin or a sentry expo. Here's what we can narrow it down to:
3 gate sentries?
DTs?
void rays?
3 gate robo?
3 gate blink?

NEXT HINT: saved chrono
you didn't see a robo fac; protosses do not proxy robo facilities.
what's he chronoing?
well he's not chronoing warpgate, since by now he would have spent most of it and warpgate would be done or almost done
he's not chronoing probes because you don't save chrono for that
he's chronoing A HIDDEN STARGATE

FINAL CLUE: stalker stays in main-- that stalker usually scouts at that time. It's protoss' only form of scouting once terran has a marine out, but before observer. Protoss needs it he has something to hide. he's all in.

Problem: you have 700 gas; don't take a 2nd gas, use the extra minerals to get more rax, more marines, more bunkers. stay on the high ground and bunker up harder.

Identify the all-in coming, and realize that it's ok to stay on 1 base with double mule. Don't take such a fast 2nd gas, and get more barracks and more marines. Flying out is not necessary and spreads you thin against VRs, and loses high ground advantage. Remember that he's on one base, and your extra CC makes your 1basing better, and you can expo more quickly. Take as few risks as possible against a 1basing protoss.

Hope this helps. I think I've caught up with everyone who's posted a replay this week. Keep on getting better, fellow Terrans!

<3

halpimcat

215 Posts

October 20 2011 09:04 GMT

#987

Hi all,

The past several weeks I've been losing to toss timing pushes, primarily after 1 base. I haven't thought too much about it before since I was literally losing all my games vs them (something like winning 1 out of 20 games) but after finally figuring out how to beat them in macro games, I can't get over the timing push hump. From immortal pushes to 6-7 gate timings, it becomes a coin flip on whether I can see it in time to react properly. I feel I could defend them properly if I knew it were coming, but I'm never quite sure what to look for.

Basically, how to scout for toss timing pushes? I can always scan at key points but they're not too reliable. I usually have a reaper scout the base between 5-6 minutes, so I feel like I'm prepared during the 1 base phase. After that I'm lost. What do I look for? How do I scout appropriately?

Edit: sorry for not clarifying, but I primarily mean 2 base timings and scouting them. I added 1 base voids in before cause I just hate dealing with them, but that's really not my problem (other than Hister's immortal style, that thing's just beastly).

theang123

Malaysia103 Posts

October 20 2011 09:15 GMT

#988

6.5 mins and u dont see a toss expo get ready for an all-in

halpimcat

215 Posts

October 20 2011 09:35 GMT

#989

On October 20 2011 18:15 theang123 wrote:
6.5 mins and u dont see a toss expo get ready for an all-in

I'm having problems with two base timings, not 1 base.

Blackinator

Canada25 Posts

October 20 2011 12:00 GMT

#990

I'm looking for a good protoss mech build. Would meching against a protoss even be a viable strat? Could it compete with the standard bio style?

zmansman17

United States2567 Posts

October 20 2011 14:08 GMT

#991

On October 20 2011 21:00 Blackinator wrote:
I'm looking for a good protoss mech build. Would meching against a protoss even be a viable strat? Could it compete with the standard bio style?

Do not go mech against Toss. In my experience, mech is just an inferior unit composition in that MU. However, I fully endorse mech in TvZ, it just seems like mech is just plain bad in TvP, unless you open with red flame hellion harass, which is sometimes viable.

zmansman17

United States2567 Posts

October 20 2011 14:26 GMT

#992

On October 20 2011 18:04 halpimcat wrote:
Hi all,

The past several weeks I've been losing to toss timing pushes, primarily after 1 base. I haven't thought too much about it before since I was literally losing all my games vs them (something like winning 1 out of 20 games) but after finally figuring out how to beat them in macro games, I can't get over the timing push hump. From immortal pushes to 6-7 gate timings, it becomes a coin flip on whether I can see it in time to react properly. I feel I could defend them properly if I knew it were coming, but I'm never quite sure what to look for.

Basically, how to scout for toss timing pushes? I can always scan at key points but they're not too reliable. I usually have a reaper scout the base between 5-6 minutes, so I feel like I'm prepared during the 1 base phase. After that I'm lost. What do I look for? How do I scout appropriately?

Edit: sorry for not clarifying, but I primarily mean 2 base timings and scouting them. I added 1 base voids in before cause I just hate dealing with them, but that's really not my problem (other than Hister's immortal style, that thing's just beastly).

Hmm off a 1 rax FE, I NEVER worry about Toss on 2 base. And I think the reason is because I know I macro better than Toss and as Terran in that MU, we have to.

A few tips that might help with a variety of different toss openings:

1) Do initial scout and click on his gas, make sure he didn't gas first (if 2350 or less remains), he may be doing a 1 base void, blink, immortal or dt play.

2) Later after you FE, don't blow a scan until you have to. Rather send a scv on move command around the fringes of the map and send it into his natural. If there is no natural by 6 minutes, send scv to main. If it dies, scan his main so you know what to prepare for. Look below for these preparations.

3) The real goal of 1 rax FE is to make it look like something it's not. Basically deny the Toss the ability to see your base, your gas, anything so that they will delay their FE and be forced into 4 wg or some cheesey, skillless 1 base BO. This is all done with that first marine (or in blocking the bottom of your ramp) or both.

4) It's popular among pros to currently drop 4 rax instead of 3 after 1 rax FE. Personally, I like this more and it's just a handy tool lately since soooo many Toss are 1 basing (mmr=high master/gm for me), and it's nice to have the extra production during 1 base timings.

5) If Toss do FE, 1 gate FE, actually drop a ninja third somewhere on the map. Make it an OC and drop all your mules there. I'm actually much less scared of a Toss on 2 base than I am against 1 base Toss, which seems disproportionately harder than it should be. So try to outmacro Toss whenever possible and dictate how they play.

1 Base Pushs:

+ Show Spoiler +

a) If void ray, immediately scout perimeter of base for pylon. Put a bunker on high ground, drop an Ebay. Put 2-3 bunkers at front of base. Send 3-4 scvs to auto repair at both locations. Place turret adjacent to both sets of bunkers.

+ Show Spoiler +

b) if blink stalker, immediately patrol perimeter of base and keep eyes pealed for observer. Scan immediately if it comes into view so he has no vision of high ground to blink into. Stop mining gas and just try to get stim if you can. Drop 2-3 more rax. Drop 2-3 bunkers at front and another 2 on high ground where he might blink into. If he does blink in to main, send all scvs from main and marines at stalkers. Keep doing this until you have tons of marines and appropriate bunkers.

+ Show Spoiler +

c) if dt, drop an ebay and put a turret behind your bunker. also, with the possibility of warp prism DT, drop one in your main if you see the dark shrine. Its better to be safe than sorry if you have good information

+ Show Spoiler +

d) if 1 base immortal push, drop 5+ bunkers (no, I'm not kidding, sadly). try to keep them in a straight line next to one another. Send 8 scvs to auto repair, some on both sides of bunker because he will have sentries. stim is imperative, so make sure that is being researched. When he attacks, send all scvs from natural to repair/attack, stim in all of your bunkers and your main army. Also, make sure your marines are on hold position so that they will not be provoked into the open and killed from stalkers harassing your bunker line.

Hider

Denmark9341 Posts

October 20 2011 16:00 GMT

#993

On October 20 2011 23:26 zmansman17 wrote:

Show nested quote +

+ Show Spoiler +

If you want to play safe you need to start woyying about toss 2 base allins. THey can kill you if you dont know how to deal with them (yes even when you 1 rax fe and have perfect macro).

Genereally you need to take watch towers around the late 7 min mark. If he wont let you have the watch towers you have to respect it, and bunker up (like 3-5 bunkers) with scvs on both sides of the bunkers. You simply cant beat a 6 gate with only 1 bunker or so even if you have 4 rax.

The only way you can do a ninja 3rd is if you know that your opp goes like 1 gate fe, +2 gate + robo. Since most of the time you cant rely on scans to scout the toss opponent you cant make that super early 3rd.
However if you see that he isn't going for a 8min 2 base push you can start building an inbase 3rd.
THe real goal of a 1 rax fe is btw not do make it look like something that is not. The real goal is doing a really solid build that doesn't rely on your opponent messing up for you to win. I do a special version of the 1 rax fe, where i start building the command center at the 16 natural at 16 suply. I dont care at all if the toss sees the expo, because I dont want him to prepare against a 1 base marine allin. WHat do I learn from that? I want to play against a toss who responds optimally, because this will give me better practice.

OF course if your goal is easy wins, you could try to trick him, but if your goal is long term improvement, dont rely on gimmicks and other tricks.

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

October 20 2011 16:14 GMT

#994

On October 20 2011 23:26 zmansman17 wrote:
5) If Toss do FE, 1 gate FE, actually drop a ninja third somewhere on the map. Make it an OC and drop all your mules there. I'm actually much less scared of a Toss on 2 base than I am against 1 base Toss, which seems disproportionately harder than it should be. So try to outmacro Toss whenever possible and dictate how they play.

You offer some good advice here about the importance of outmacroing your opponent as well as a good guideline for fighting a 1baseing toss. I think I have a difference of opinion with you about the response to a 1 gate FE, however.

Given the possibility of a variety of fast 2 base all-ins from the protoss ranging from the classic 6 (or 7) gate all-in to a 5 gate robo all-in, a lot of these builds will be dangerous to a Terran player who doesn't adequately invest into unit production, army, upgrades and bunkers fairly early on.

Getting a very fast third (without scouting that an all-in isn't coming) means you take the risk of losing to a 2 base all-in unless you substantially outplay your opponent. Several of these all-ins are dangerous even if you don't take the fast third.

zmansman17

United States2567 Posts

October 20 2011 18:06 GMT

#995

On October 21 2011 01:00 Hider wrote:

Show nested quote +

Interesting perspective nad I appreciate the post. You are right 2 base all ins must be take seriously and Terran will die if not preparing accordingly. However, just because you make a fast 3rd after spottign 1 gate FE does not mean you will die (unless of course you make some very poor decision following the 3rd).

Basically within 2 mule drops of that 3rd OC, it more than pays for itself, and that is the logic of it. Even if you make no workers, it pays for itself in the lifespan of 2 mules. But more importantly, it offers longevity to your 2 base since you could theoretically drop all of your mules there. (Granted, the most experienced players among us would notice if ALL mules were dropped somehwere else, thus suspecting a 3rd, but not even the best players would know if MOST were dropped at the 3rd, since there is never constant vision of both mineral lines for the Toss player).

So if the game becomes a micro war off 2-3 base. You may win the war of attrition on this principal alone.

The other idea is that as long as you do not overproduce workers at the 3rd, you can always lift it, lose a few workers and it still pays for itself many times over. (and even if you do full saturate it, it will still pay for itself many times over).

I agree that to respond effectively to a 2 base all in, it is very similar to a 1 base all in. You scan and you must scout more adroitly. But you are also offered this option, as you have 3 OC and more free scans.

I personally find that there is nothing wrong with dropping a bunch of bunkers. If you do take a fast third in response to 1 gate FE, you know more or less when the Toss can all in you. It's going to happen around the 9 minute marker. Therefore, drop 4 bunkers, have stim up, medivac tech, and vikings prepared. If you scan a Toss massing collosi, go double reactor starport, utilizing one of the reactors from your rax.

I truly believe that the best option, in my experience, to 1 gate FE is not trying to win some crazy micro war (which could go either way), but expand the game and pull yourself down the timeline to a point in the game where you will be ahead on macro.

With that said, I love defending and stylistically this is how I play. If you prefer a safer, more solid style (where things are relatively even), that option may not be for you. But for me personally, I'll take the risk to macro more and I think to improve as a player you must eventually elect this option.

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

October 20 2011 18:32 GMT

#996

On October 21 2011 03:06 zmansman17 wrote:

Interesting perspective nad I appreciate the post. You are right 2 base all ins must be take seriously and Terran will die if not preparing accordingly. However, just because you make a fast 3rd after spottign 1 gate FE does not mean you will die (unless of course you make some very poor decision following the 3rd).

Basically within 2 mule drops of that 3rd OC, it more than pays for itself, and that is the logic of it. Even if you make no workers, it pays for itself in the lifespan of 2 mules. But more importantly, it offers longevity to your 2 base since you could theoretically drop all of your mules there. (Granted, the most experienced players among us would notice if ALL mules were dropped somehwere else, thus suspecting a 3rd, but not even the best players would know if MOST were dropped at the 3rd, since there is never constant vision of both mineral lines for the Toss player).

/////

I personally find that there is nothing wrong with dropping a bunch of bunkers. If you do take a fast third in response to 1 gate FE, you know more or less when the Toss can all in you. It's going to happen around the 9 minute marker. Therefore, drop 4 bunkers, have stim up, medivac tech, and vikings prepared.

I've been hit by 6 gate timing attacks as early as 8:00. That being said, you have to take a very, very fast 3rd OC for it to pay for itself in time. An OC takes 135 seconds to make-- you immediately get to call down a mule, and 90 seconds later, it's earned you 270 minerals. you call down then 2nd mule, and 90 seconds later, it's earned you 270 minerals also, meaning the OC has paid for itself. This amount of time is 135+90+90=315 seconds. 5 minutes.

That opens a pretty large timing window for the protoss player to attack you. If you want to be recovered from the OC in time for his attack (lets say he attacks a bit more slowly, at 9:00) you need to start building your 3rd command center at 4:00.

Put in perspective, a 1 rax no-gas fast expand gets a 2nd command center at 3:15.
A "safe" 1 gate FE expos a little later than that, usually around 4:10 (since you're getting an assimilator and a cybernetics core before nexus), and a risky 1 gate FE expos at about the same time.

I'm not sure it's actually viable to make a 3rd CC, turn it into an OC, and calldown and benefit from 2 mules to pay for it before a 2 base all in comes.

halpimcat

215 Posts

October 20 2011 20:35 GMT

#997

Thanks for the help guys. I'm not quite convinced on taking the ninja third, but I guess for the most part I have to pay more attention to the warning signs; know what timings 2 base attacks generally hit (8-9 minutes), and toss aggressively denying xel'naga towers seems to be the big one. Any other signs I should watch out for?

Scila

Canada1849 Posts

October 20 2011 23:29 GMT

#998

On October 21 2011 05:35 halpimcat wrote:
Thanks for the help guys. I'm not quite convinced on taking the ninja third, but I guess for the most part I have to pay more attention to the warning signs; know what timings 2 base attacks generally hit (8-9 minutes), and toss aggressively denying xel'naga towers seems to be the big one. Any other signs I should watch out for?

The only way I know heavy gate 2 base aggression is coming is by scanning Protoss nat to see how big his army is, scanning his main to see his buildings, and by whether or not you see the Toss poking your ramp.

Gavatron

Canada13 Posts

October 21 2011 00:14 GMT

#999

Hello fellow Terrans and Blazing Hand in particular,

I am a Diamond League player who's having difficulties fighting Protoss. Here is a replay of my latest loss. I hope you can help.

http://drop.sc/46111

zmansman17

United States2567 Posts

October 21 2011 00:26 GMT

#1000

On October 21 2011 03:32 Blazinghand wrote:

Show nested quote +

The 3rd OC is the best response imo, as I outlined above. No Toss is going to all in you @ 8:00 minutes after dropping an FE, the army would be much weaker, albeit an unusual timing.

After all, the best Terrans including Demuslim and Kas do exactly what I am describing when they spot a 1 gate FE. They drop a 3rd OC and make the necessary preparations to defend.

Again, if you are a more hesitant, safe player, then perhaps you should stay on 2 base with the Toss. Knowing what I know at my level, I must stay ahead of the Toss in macro as best I can to win. Therefore, I take a calculated risk to get ahead.

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