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[A] Starbow - Page 465

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-20 13:41:32
November 20 2013 12:08 GMT
#9281
The biggest problem with that map is that it is so different. It is hard to give feedback because I cannot compare it to anything. Maybe the third is a tad too close. Also maybe the whole map is a tad too big (What is the dimensions?)

Except for that it looks promising.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
November 20 2013 19:31 GMT
#9282
Alright just got home, so i can look up the stats. The map is 160x128. Medium size.

Nat to Nat is 150 by the Blizzard meassuring tool...

The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-20 19:37:38
November 20 2013 19:35 GMT
#9283
On November 20 2013 15:33 Xiphias wrote:
Speaking of maps. I think the maps we have now are good in terms of distances and lay-out, but they look a bit n00bish in terms of aesthetics. (Mostly my fault). Except Winter Spirit, good job on that one Dec!

So if any skilled mapmaker want to do an aesthetic overhaul to our map-pool I would welcome that!

ONE RULE however: It is important that the aesthetics do not distract from game-play. So try and stay moderate.


I'm not an aesthetics guy but I can probably give you some advice/new maps/minor edits since I made maps in BW too. Where's your mappool?

Sumadin: Frankly speaking, the map seems to be constructed without too much thought into map design XD. Try posting some of your maps as their own thread and you can get some advice.
( bush
Profile Joined April 2011
321 Posts
November 21 2013 20:35 GMT
#9284
Are NA maps up to date with the latest changes?
oo
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
November 21 2013 22:03 GMT
#9285
On November 22 2013 05:35 ( bush wrote:
Are NA maps up to date with the latest changes?

It doesn't get updated as often due to not having a consistent player base like EU, but updating as I'm typing this.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-22 17:16:52
November 22 2013 17:03 GMT
#9286
Patch uploaded

I fixed two important bugs:

- Nurturing swarm should now work flawlessly on Lair, Hive, Greater Spire, Lurker Den, aswell on all normal Zerg structures.
- Banelings now deal full dmg vs shields.

Details about the Baneling dmg vs shields:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
This was tricky to solve. Its not super perfect, but it was the best I manage to get. I might aswell explain it for those who care about details:

- Banelings deal 18 base dmg.
- 100% dmg vs medium & armored units. (18 dmg...)
- 200% dmg vs light units. (36 dmg)
- 250% dmg vs structures (ca 50 dmg)

This means that if a Baneling attacks a Dragoon or Archon, who are Armored, the Baneling destroys 36 shield.
(Just as all attacks in Starbow deal full dmg vs shields.)

If the Baneling attacks a Light unit or a structure with shield, it actually deals twice damage. For example:
- A Baneling attacks a Zealot. It deals 72 dmg vs Zealot shield. (But only 36 dmg vs normal hit points.)
- A Baneling attacks a Pylon. It deals ca 50x2 dmg vs the shield. (But only 50 dmg vs normal hit points.)

As a point of reference, Banelings in SC2 deal 15 dmg vs all, 35 dmg vs armored, 80 dmg vs structures.
It takes 4 Banelings to kill a Zealot now, compared to 5 in SC2.
It takes 9 Banelings to kill a Pylon now, compared to 8 in SC2.
Hopefully will this help to make Banelings ok in ZvP, especially beyond the early game.

If this is broken, for example with early Baneling busts, I will try to work more on the Baneling attack. But since it is kinda complicated and time consuming, I settled with this solution for now.
<<<

Other stuff:


- Storm now deals 112 dmg over 6 seconds. (Earlier 112 dmg over 4.5 seconds!)
- Irradiate casting range 9 again. Deals ca 15% less dmg per second.
- Nerve Jammer area increased.

Since I slowed down the speed of units by 7% earlier, it seems far that damage spells are also slower.
Nerve Jammer might need larger rework since there is an AI-problem with the spell. I might include a new version in the test patch.

Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
November 22 2013 22:08 GMT
#9287
@ Patch

Good stuff!

Casting range for dark swarm is still 3?
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-23 14:28:25
November 23 2013 14:10 GMT
#9288
Here is stuff that is left to fix in Starbow:

- Spider mine bugs (I will have a new version up with the test map-patch)
- Carrier micro
- Balance/adjust some spells - Dark Swarm, Irradiate, Psi Storm, Nerve Jammer etc.
- High ground bonus bugged for Dragoons?
- Lots of graphical improvements + improved tooltip descriptions

Apart from that, the base game seems to be in ok shape.

Tomorrow will the test patch be uploaded!

Why a test-patch?

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955&currentpage=462#9238
<<<

Patch
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

- One new unit at Barrack
- One new unit at Factory
- New version of Spider mine

- One new unit at Lair tech
- One new unit at Hive tech

- One new unit at Gateway/Warp gate
- One new unit at Robotic facility


- No units already in Sbow will be removed.

- No units already in Sbow will be rebalanced to make the new units fit. <-- Important!

- If those new units are broken, I will aim to modify them and only them. (Not start to modify everything else!)

- I have picked units and "designed" them in a way I think will be fun for the game and the gameplay, and fit in the game we already have. I am limited by the units/models that are in the editor, and I have tried to make something ok out of it. As usual, since I am public with my thought processes and the development here in the forum, you will all sit on the front row of the show. Either it fails or it becomes ok. The brutal truth unfolds when we start to play it.
<<<

Casting range for dark swarm is still 3?


It is actually 6. It has been 6 for a couple of weeks now. (I thought too it was 3, but I noticed yesterday that it was set to 6. In my old back-up files that goes back ca a month, it is also 6... spoooooky... O_o )
Creator of Starbow
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-24 11:04:10
November 24 2013 10:51 GMT
#9289
The new patch will be up 6 hours from now. (18.00 CET)

I will also post a presentation here in the thread,

Anyone up for playing tonight?
Creator of Starbow
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
November 24 2013 10:54 GMT
#9290
i will be online 18.00
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
November 24 2013 15:00 GMT
#9291
Two hours left till deadline!
I think I can make it!
gogogogo
<(^_^)>

Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
November 24 2013 15:13 GMT
#9292
I would play/cast with you guys if it were not for it being Sunday today.

Next week is busy for me but I'll try and be more active after that.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
November 24 2013 17:05 GMT
#9293
I am finalizing the patch presentation now. It will be up any minute.
Creator of Starbow
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-24 17:44:08
November 24 2013 17:17 GMT
#9294
The new patch

Ok. The patch is now uploaded on a test map.

If you have followed this thread, Starbow is kinda completed. But the game is basically ca 80% BW with not that much new things. This patch is my last attempt at bringing some additional content into Sbow, on top of the already existing BW foundation we have.

Just a couple of notes before we start:

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- No existing units in Starbow have been reworked, tweaked or adjusted to make room for those units. (Which has always happend in the past.)

- If the concept of those units work, the stats might ofc need to be fine-tuned.

- I am always public with the development here in the thread. Which means I have not played this vs anyone or showed this yet. It might turn out to be bad, boring or completelly worthless in reality. Its the same risk of embarrassment I always take.

- The graphic and effects are not 100% complete, which means that some stuff might look a bit ugly.

- I use units already in the editor who are familiar to Starcraft-players. They are just modified to fit into a Starbow context.
I know many of you have sent me ideas for completely new units. But I try to keep it simple because completely new units require a lot of editor work to create.

- I will write very shortly and concentrated about the new units. I will just bore you all with a wall of text of my reasons and thoughts. Keep in mind this is a test-patch!
<<<

Here is an overview of how Starbow already looks, for those of you who do not play or observe at a regular basis:

>>>+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]
<<<

Details of the new patch:


Terran:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
New version of Spider mine
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

The Spider mine, as it works in BW, is really hard to make in the SC2 editor. It has been buggy and messed with enemy units AI for a looong time now in Sbow, and I am just unable to solve it.

The Spider mine now works like this:

When an enemy unit comes within range 3, the Spider mine unburrows and stands still for 2 sec. Then it launches a missile towards the enemy ground unit. The missile deals the same damage in the same area as before. The missile has a tracking beam that indicates which enemy unit will be hit. This allows the enemy player to micro against it by splitting his units, move into a dropship, mine drag into Terran units etc.

[image loading]
<<<

New Barrack unit:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Not a suprise, heh? ^^

Stats:
- Cost 75/25
- Supply 2
- Requires no Tech lab.
- Build time 30 sec.
- 130 life
- 1 amor
- Armored
- Speed 1.95 (slightly slower than Marine)
- Deals 16 explosive damage. (100% vs amored, 75% vs medium, 50% vs light units)
- Always deals 4 extra damage vs mechanical units.
- Attack cooldown 2.14 seconds
- Range 4

Comments by me:

This Marauder is basically as the old Marauder we had in Starbow, with the same stats. It got removed together with the Stalker + Roach, since I wanted to establish the early/midgame BW balance first, without other core units affecting it.

- Purpose of this unit is to make Bio or Bio + mech playable vs T and P, which leads to more diversity.
- 130 life allows it to survive 2 Spider mines.
- 4 extra damage vs mechanical units allows it to be weak vs Lurkers, but still good at fighting Vultures, Goliaths etc.
- The DPS of this Marauder is much lower than in SC2.
<<<

New Factory unit:

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Stats:
- Cost 300/200
- Supply 6
- Requires Tech lab, Armory and Fusion Core.
- Build time 60 sec.
- 400 life
- 2 amor
- Armored, Massive
- Speed 1.74 (slightly slower than Marine)
- Deals 2x25 normal damage. (100% vs everything)
- Splash damage vs all unts
- Attack cooldown 1.84 seconds. (Same as Dragoon)
- Range 5
- Starting energy 75
- Maximum energy 200

Thor can use two abilities it starts with:

Hammerstrike

Costs 125 energy to detonate the ground. ALL nearby ground units around the Thor takes 60 damage and are stunned for 3 seconds.

Activate Javelin Launcher

Costs 75 energy to activate the Thors anti-air attack for 15 seconds.
- Deals 4x8 splash dmg vs air units
- Attack cooldown 3.3 seconds
- Attack range 9

Comments by me:

- Thors do not work well in deathballs or clumped up. They splash friendly units and benefits from being spread out.
- Has potential for good synergy with Dropships - harass enemy worker lines, drop on enemy Tanks to Hammerstrike them and so on.
- Activate Anti-air attack requires energy management aswell as offers more room for counterplay vs the Thor.
- Hopefully will Hammerstrike affect how P and Z engages mech positions, especially when A-moving Zealots, Ultras, Zerglings etc. Everything at on

- In terms of balance, both Protoss and Zerg have much stronger lategame army mobility, compared to Terran. Warpgates + offensive Nydus worm at Overlord creep spread. Terran instead got an additional late game positional unit with the Thor, which intends to make Terran stronger at holding ground.
<<<
<<<

Zerg
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

New unit at Lair tech:

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Stats:
- Cost 100/50
- Supply 2
- Requires Roach Warren at Lair. (Costs 100/50)
- Build time 33 sec.
- 160 life
- 2 amor
- Armored
- Speed 2.55 (Slightly slower than Dragoon)
- Deals 16 medium damage. (100% vs everything.)
- Attack cooldown 1.87 seconds (Same as Dragoon)
- Range 3

Roach can use two abilities:

Tunnel (Costs 100/100 to research at Roach Warren) - Burrow the Roach for 5 seconds. During this time it moves as fast as speed Zealots. It receives only 50% damage while burrowed. When it unburrows, enemy units can not attack it for 1.5 seconds, which allows it to always get the first shot off. 10 seconds cooldown before it can burrow again.

Morph into Swarm Host (Costs 150/150 to research at Roach Warren. Requires Hive tech.) - Roaches can morph into Swarm Hosts. Details below...
<<<


New unit at Hive Tech:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Stats:
- Cost 100/50 to morph from Roach. (Total cost 200/100)
- Supply 3
- Requires Swarm Aspect upgrade at Roach Warren (Costs 150/150)
- Build time 33 sec.
- 160 life
- 1 amor
- Armored
- Speed 2.07 (As Marines)

Swarm Host can use two abilities from start:

Spawn Locusts - Just as in HoTS, 2 Locusts are spawned. They have the same stats for now. BUT it costs 15 gas to spawn them! Lasts 30 seconds.

Spawn Weevil - Flying bug with no attack. Can Neural parasite an enemy unit. Costs 15 gas. Lasts 30 seconds.

Comments by me:

- Even a few numbers of Swarm Hosts can be useful now, due to the Weevils. Which also gives the Swarm host another purpose, besides just flooding out free units to attack the front.
- The low gas cost of Locusts + Weevils prevents players from flooding the game with "unlimited" Locusts.
- Roach into Swarm Host adds a new tech tree branch for Zerg. Just Roaches without morphing into anything else might feel too naked for the game.
- The stats of Locusts need to be fine tuned, especially if they cost a low amount of resources.
<<<
<<<

Protoss:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
New unit at Gateway / Warp gate:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

- Cost 75/50
- Supply 2
- Requires Twilight Council.
- Build time 40 sec.
- 60 life, 40 shield
- 0 amor
- Armored
- Speed 3.07 (Same as speed Zealots)
- Deals 8 plasma damage. (+50% vs light units. 12 dmg in this case.)
- Attack cooldown 1.6 seconds. (Faster than Dragoons)
- Range 4
- Can attack ground and air units.

The Stalker has the following special features:

- Can be Warped in. (Keep in mind, Dragoons can not!)

- Can see above cliffs. (Allows it to Blink up cliffs without any air unit nearby)

- Starts with a special version of Blink. After it Blinks, the Stalker will "fade in" again for 3 seconds. During this time, enemy units will not attack it, unless they focus fire it. This allows the fragile Stalker to avoid damage, dodge enemy attacks, do hit and run attacks, but it also offers counter micro for Terran when Stalkers Blink into Tanks.

- Can research an upgrade that reduces Blink cooldown from 24 to 12 seconds, and increases casting range from 4 to 8.
(With the upgrade, Blink kinda gets its normal stat values.)

Comments by me:
- A more specialized mobile fragile hit-and-run and scouting unit.
- Its low health and short range should make them bad at straight engagements vs Hydras etc.
- P must not go Stargate or Robo to get scouting information.
- Offers P a way to deal with Mutas, apart from getting Corsairs.
- Might be useful in PvP as a way to deal with enemy Zealots and dodge Reaver shots.
- Will it see play vs T? Probably not as a combat unit, but maybe as a way to hurt clumped up enemy Tank lines and abuse the new version of Spider mines. Or move on the outskirts of Terran bases to snipe Turrets.
<<<

New unit at Robotic facility:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
!!!

This unit requires a special explanation by me.

I looked at what potential units could be brought into the game, especially at Robotic facility.
Immortal, Sentry and Colossus were kinda the only available ones.
Ofc no unit shall be added just for the sake of being added.
I wanted to try and do something meaningful out of the Colossus. See if it is possible to make it fun and make it fit into the game.

Here are four bad things with the Colossus in SC2, in my opinion:

- It is so expensive and important for the army, that players are super careful to not lose ot.
- It is slow enough that it can not really move out of the army on its own. (So easy for the enemy to catch and snipe it.)
- It has insane attack range.
- It can walk over units.

Combined, all of this makes the Colossus a deathball unit. Clump them up above your ground army to benefit from insane DPS.

Here is how I tried to attack the problem:

Stats:


- Cost 100/200
- Supply 4
- Requires Robotic facility. (Reaver requires Robotic bay.)
- Build time 90 sec. (Prevents it from coming too early into the game.)
- 180 life, 120 shield
- 1 amor
- Armored, Massive
- Speed 2.55 (Slight slower than Dragoon.)
- Deals 11x2 normal damage. (100% vs everything)
- Attack cooldown 2.35 seconds. (Each shot is more important.)
- Range 6 (Same as upgraded range Dragoons.)
- The model is smaller!

Features of the Colossus:

- It attacks in a straight line like on the picture:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

This makes the position matter more. Since the Colossus is faster, find a good angle.

- It can only walk over Light units and cliffs. (Not stand above your Dragoons or anything.)

- It has no range upgrade, so it can not outrange static defence or anything.

- It can research an upgrade at Robotic Bay. When upgraded, it can not take more than 40 dmg to its shield from a single attack. This is relevant vs Spider mines, Tanks, Scourge and Reavers.

Comments by me:

- The Colossus allows Protoss a midgame unit who can fight vs mass Hydras + mass Bio. It is however not strong enough to just melt everything. But it can add valuable support in the midgame. But later on will P need Storm or Reavers.

- The DPS is lower than in SC2.

- The build time of the Colossus is so long, and Robotic facilities are expensive, that it is unlikely that massed Colossus will dominate the game too early.

- Since the Colossus is cheaper, faster, can be Rifted, and has a shield upgrade for protection, will it be more able to move away from the army to harass or abuse the terrain.

- How does this look vs other Protoss splash attacks?

Reaver - Long range, high burst damage. Can outrange static defence, Lurkers etc. High tech unit.
Archon - Short range, melee splash damage. Can attack air. High tech unit.
Colossus - Medium ranged, low splash damage over larger area. Mobile. Mid game tech unit.

- This is the biggest Joker in the patch and probably a risky one.
<<<
<<<

Thats it.

The test map is called "Starbow - Winter Spirit Test Patch".
The Unit Tester is called "Starbow Unit Tester Test Patch"
Creator of Starbow
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-24 17:41:23
November 24 2013 17:33 GMT
#9295
Anyone coming or???

Spidermines can hit stealth now without detection?
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-24 17:44:31
November 24 2013 17:34 GMT
#9296
I'm on my way, just fixing the upload.¨Will get the unit tester too.

Ok now its fixed.

Spidermines can hit stealth now without detection?


No
Creator of Starbow
[SC]Django
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland44 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-24 18:35:24
November 24 2013 18:32 GMT
#9297
Interesting test map
Map need moths to test.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
November 24 2013 20:23 GMT
#9298
http://www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm streaming
isaachukfan
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada785 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-24 20:27:12
November 24 2013 20:25 GMT
#9299
I'm sorry if you've already mentioned it, but is there a possibility that you'd consider taking a few of the new units into the real game, but not all of them? I'm a bit skeptical of the swarm host and thor personally...
I'm a mennonite, yes I'm allowed to use a computer
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-25 01:20:30
November 25 2013 00:49 GMT
#9300
I'm sorry if you've already mentioned it, but is there a possibility that you'd consider taking a few of the new units into the real game, but not all of them? I'm a bit skeptical of the swarm host and thor personally...


Yes, maybe a few of those units are added. Maybe none.
The base game of Sbow is already completed, but it is a lot like BW. This patch added 2 units from SC2 to each race, to explore, try and maybe tweak, to see if they can fit into the Sbow context. Depending on how things feel, some of it might be included in the game.

---

Thanks for all games we played today. We need to try more games with the new stuff, but so far I think Roach is the most fun unit to both play with and against. Marauders feel ok too. Many of the other units did not see that much play. Colossus is problematic, as many expected, but I still wanted to give it a shot to see how it would feel in the context of Starbow.

But I have to admit that I actually like to micro the Colossus, especially when close to cliffs. It can use the terrain in a way few units can. Move up, move down, shoot, back, shoot. Its simple, kinda like microing a Dragoon, but it feels like micro in one more dimension.
The problem is the combination of large splash area, fast speed, tough HP and critical mass. (I know you have written about this in the past Zaphod.) I tried to modify those factors today, but it was probably not enough.

Ps. I like how Sbow still can feel like the BW meta-game. Despite all new stuff, some matches today were played as in BW. While some other matches felt like a new game, with new units and playstyles being used. Which is good. A game with roots in BW, but still possible for a broader meta-game.
Creator of Starbow
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