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Hey there!
I wanted to join in the discussion, even if I am a bit late to the party.
Thanks for adding me to the group today - I had a good time and Starbow is great fun! I learned a lot, especially being able to chat with you and decemberscalm and learn about your intent for the game.
Here's my feedback, based on what I saw:
The Good
* Game speed. I love it. This is one of the strongest aspects of this mod so far.
* Unit AI. Just as above. These two work beautifully in concert.
* Upgrades. I really like that you have made lots of upgrades. It definitely adds an awesome dynamic to the game, having to research things (something that sc2 has been slowly doing away with... craziness)
* Protoss. I can only speak to this race intelligently. I love the new Khaydarin crystal for the nexus (except it only costs 15. Too little!). I love the warpgate change.
* Unit choices prior to this patch. They were brilliant. The essentials. The variety. Beautiful.
The Bad
* Inter-racial redundancy. Protoss have chrono-boost. Terran have build-faster-ability (forget name). Zerg have larvae-faster ability (again with the name). These all sound too similar. I dislike the same principle being applied to each race for "fairness." Asymmetrical balance is the core of Starcraft.
* Inter-racial similarity. Each race has a flying caster. I know that it will happen to some degree, but now they're TOO similar. The viper seems just like a flying defiler (in purpose if not abilities). Why not have it on the ground?
* Missed chances on abilities. For example: Defensive matrix on a Medic. Seems weird, mostly because why would a medic use it on the units it will accompany (ie marine/maurader)? And others similar - none come to mind now.
* Swarm Host. I don't like this unit in HotS, so I may be biased. I don't like it in Starbow either, especially with the tiny, long lasting, and non-auto targeted Weevils.
* Irradiate. I mentioned this in-game too. Spell is boring. Targets a single unit. Unit dies over time. neat... AoE irradiate: targets area, units must move out of area or take damage! Promotes micro, area control, and prolongs battles. Interesting!
* Roach burrowing ability. It's just weird. It's too fast and also makes it take less damage! Strange, and I'm not sure I see the point.
* Observer "Evade" ability. I'm not sold on this one either. Losing auto-targeting is kind of a no-no to me. I know that it's supposed to promote more micro, but I just don't like it.
The Ugly
* Some of the new units.
--Colossus. As Dec mentioned, it promotes deathballs. No way around that, at least that I can see. It lacks interest as well. What makes it interesting? It is fast, walks up cliffs, does AoE damage, and is tough. It's everything.
--Stalker. It doesn't seem to me that it fills a role that the dragoon doesn't. Sure, it has blink. That is a cute little addition that allows it to get around for cute attacks, and to do cute little micro to live longer. It doesn't differentiate the stalker from the dragoon ENOUGH to make it worth including. Plus, to me Protoss units fall into two categories: expensive, strong, tough units, or expensive, strong, easy to kill units. IE - zealot is very tough and expensive while the high templar or dark templar are both expensive and do a lot of damage but are quite weak and easy to kill. The Stalker falls into neither category. Same applies to the Colossus really.
--Marauder. This falls back to the idea of redundancy (same as stalker). What does it REALLY do that a marine can't? What justifies it's existence?
--Thor. Though I'm less opposed over all, this ALSO screams redundancy to me. It has a high-damage splash attack. Siege tank? It attacks air. Goliath? Both are even factory units! What justifies the Thor?
--Swarm Host. I already mentioned this. No redundancy! But I think it's a bad unit to begin with, so I'm probably biased.
Overall I LOVE LOVE LOVE this mod. I think you're headed in the best possible direction and you are clearly succeeding in making a proper "sequel" to Brood War. I hope that you take my thoughts as they are: well-meaning criticism. I only want to provide more perspective and hopefully help you make Starbow as good as humanly possible.
I hope to see you gents again, I will practice up!
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On November 25 2013 10:42 Millicant wrote:Hey there! I wanted to join in the discussion, even if I am a bit late to the party. Thanks for adding me to the group today - I had a good time and Starbow is great fun! I learned a lot, especially being able to chat with you and decemberscalm and learn about your intent for the game. Here's my feedback, based on what I saw: + Show Spoiler +
The Good
* Game speed. I love it. This is one of the strongest aspects of this mod so far.
* Unit AI. Just as above. These two work beautifully in concert.
* Upgrades. I really like that you have made lots of upgrades. It definitely adds an awesome dynamic to the game, having to research things (something that sc2 has been slowly doing away with... craziness)
* Protoss. I can only speak to this race intelligently. I love the new Khaydarin crystal for the nexus (except it only costs 15. Too little!). I love the warpgate change.
* Unit choices prior to this patch. They were brilliant. The essentials. The variety. Beautiful.
The Bad
* Inter-racial redundancy. Protoss have chrono-boost. Terran have build-faster-ability (forget name). Zerg have larvae-faster ability (again with the name). These all sound too similar. I dislike the same principle being applied to each race for "fairness." Asymmetrical balance is the core of Starcraft.
* Inter-racial similarity. Each race has a flying caster. I know that it will happen to some degree, but now they're TOO similar. The viper seems just like a flying defiler (in purpose if not abilities). Why not have it on the ground?
* Missed chances on abilities. For example: Defensive matrix on a Medic. Seems weird, mostly because why would a medic use it on the units it will accompany (ie marine/maurader)? And others similar - none come to mind now.
* Swarm Host. I don't like this unit in HotS, so I may be biased. I don't like it in Starbow either, especially with the tiny, long lasting, and non-auto targeted Weevils.
* Irradiate. I mentioned this in-game too. Spell is boring. Targets a single unit. Unit dies over time. neat... AoE irradiate: targets area, units must move out of area or take damage! Promotes micro, area control, and prolongs battles. Interesting!
* Roach burrowing ability. It's just weird. It's too fast and also makes it take less damage! Strange, and I'm not sure I see the point.
* Observer "Evade" ability. I'm not sold on this one either. Losing auto-targeting is kind of a no-no to me. I know that it's supposed to promote more micro, but I just don't like it.
The Ugly
* Some of the new units.
--Colossus. As Dec mentioned, it promotes deathballs. No way around that, at least that I can see. It lacks interest as well. What makes it interesting? It is fast, walks up cliffs, does AoE damage, and is tough. It's everything.
--Stalker. It doesn't seem to me that it fills a role that the dragoon doesn't. Sure, it has blink. That is a cute little addition that allows it to get around for cute attacks, and to do cute little micro to live longer. It doesn't differentiate the stalker from the dragoon ENOUGH to make it worth including. Plus, to me Protoss units fall into two categories: expensive, strong, tough units, or expensive, strong, easy to kill units. IE - zealot is very tough and expensive while the high templar or dark templar are both expensive and do a lot of damage but are quite weak and easy to kill. The Stalker falls into neither category. Same applies to the Colossus really.
--Marauder. This falls back to the idea of redundancy (same as stalker). What does it REALLY do that a marine can't? What justifies it's existence?
--Thor. Though I'm less opposed over all, this ALSO screams redundancy to me. It has a high-damage splash attack. Siege tank? It attacks air. Goliath? Both are even factory units! What justifies the Thor?
--Swarm Host. I already mentioned this. No redundancy! But I think it's a bad unit to begin with, so I'm probably biased.
Overall I LOVE LOVE LOVE this mod. I think you're headed in the best possible direction and you are clearly succeeding in making a proper "sequel" to Brood War. I hope that you take my thoughts as they are: well-meaning criticism. I only want to provide more perspective and hopefully help you make Starbow as good as humanly possible.
I hope to see you gents again, I will practice up!
I have to say I've been lurking a long time but just to address a couple of these (btw, thx for making time to play and leave feedback unlike some procrastinator like myself T_T).
Viper: For context, it functions more similarly to a BW queen. Imagine if the queen had a building consume and a pull instead of a (target unit explodes) ability. Both are single target removal (been watching a lot of hearthstone). And they both have the ensnare to varying degrees (I would actually like a buff to ensnare's projectile speed, but only so i can make ling baneling viper work  )
Stalker: I'm torn between whole heartedly agreeing with you and from stubbornly refusing to let the stalker just die. Blink really is one of the most interesting things about SC2, and to just throw it away would be sad. That said, it is EXTREMELY powerful (it's basically a LoL flash with a 15 second cooldown and we all know how broken THAT would be if you play LoL).
It's so powerful, that it has to be on a very weak and fragile unit, otherwise it would be game breaking. (Tested). If it didn't have the little extra fade, it would be kinda useless a lot of times (Also tested). We'll see, after all, this version is the test version, not the official one yet  .
Thor: THOR IS HERE! I'm already extremely hesitant about having units that cost a ton of supply and resources to make, but since its best function is slightly away from the main army I don't know how this will really play out. One Goal toyed around with this idea and it was fun, but didn't really seem to have a place. We'll see.
Collosus: Saving this can of worms for someone who can play more with it than me. Both dec and Kabel have good points for its pros and cons and I would rather just see moar of it in action with some decent players. (No offense).
Swarm Hosts: I can understand your bias (I was initially like wtf too), but the reason i suspect of your bias is the infinite token generator swarm host. (<- boring as !@#$). I kind of like the idea behind the new swarmhost, but we'll have to see how the balancing holds up. If anything, it gives a low supply answer to the new beefy threats such as thors and collosus and can provide some interesting shenanigans. Locust and weevils probably will need moar balancing.
Marauders: Mech is good. MECH IS KING. ALL HAIL BW! Joking aside, what can marauders do that marines can't? Live. That is the reason why mech is so terribad in SC2 right now. Units like roaches, immortals, and marauders can live through the opening volley of tanks lurkers and reavers and still fight, negating space control. Marines MUST obey the space control units unless they have some fancy support such as medix, dropships, BCs whatever. So we only see bio in SC2 (unless you are avilo), and we only see mech in BW (unless you are flash who can pretty much do whatever the fak he wants anyways). The objective is for terrans to have THE ABILITY to do both or hybridize. Marauders fill the niche. Whether or not the balance holds up, we need more data to tell.
The Macro Mechanics: I dunno, I think they are distinguished enough. Chronoboost is the weakest, but can be used on reasearch and unit production. Queens can boost unit and building production (not reasearch), cost more but can also attack. Terran has a watchamacallit that jiggles the bits to make something pop out sooner. Sounds like Terran to me. Personal preference i guess.
Irradiate: I see your point. Wait, is irradiate single target only now? Eh??
Roach: FOR SCIENCE!
Matrix: FOR REASONS! http://i.imgur.com/NwT5ubi.gif
Observer: FOR SCIENTIFIC REASONS!
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@Irradiate
He means you cast it on a single unit, and just boom. It'll die. Eventually.
Touch of death spell.
It does do splash, but the defining feature is that it death touches lurkers and defilers. It might as well be single target if that is what it is used for 99% of the time.
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Hi all.
I have been working for 3 years on my own Starcraft 2 Project.
And I know many other projects such as oneGoal, SC2Pro and SC2BW.
I know Starcraft since 1998 and I love it.
During the development of Starcraft 2, I was informed by him almost daily about the state of development.
I read a lot of discussion in the official us and german forum. Additionally I have read articles like "Do you macro like a pro?", "Breadth of Gameplay in SC2" and some more on Team Liquid.
I have seen many discussions and video conferences by David Kim and Justin Browder with the professional players.
In addition I think about games after since I'm 7 and today I have already developed many game concepts, read books, articles and seen videos about game design.
My game design philosophy is a little different than yours.
BroodWar was/is a great game, but there are many technical and other differents between SC:BW and SC2 and I think you know that.
I think you can improve your work, if you look at what other projects already made. It seems to me as if you and the other projects is constantly reinventing the wheel. You can look at solutions from other projects and then you can think about how this would be work in your project.
Furthermore, I think you do not have to change 80 percent of Starcraft 2 or must convert it to 80 percent from Starcraft 2 to BroodWar. Starcraft 2 has many faults, but also new problems. New problems require new solutions.
To replace all bad in Starcraft 2 by old solutions is not the right way. That is the philosophy that I mean.
Take the few things from BroodWar were exceptionally good, not good, but exceptionally good.
The only way you can create an alternative to Starcraft 2, which receives much attention.
The players have been accustomed to a lot of Starcraft 2. Everything good in Starcraft 2 at what players have been accustomed is one thing that is worse or rather is missing in your project. Therefore many players, many of whom don´t know BroodWar will don't like your project.
Instead of 80 % BroodWar and 20 % Starcraft 2, I prefer 70 % Starcraft 2, 20 % BroodWar and 10 % necessary new solutions. New solutions only if they are necessary.
Your project is not an alternative for Starcraft 2 fans, but for Brood War lovers.
Many things like the question Dragoon or Stalkers are a matter of taste and not a design issue.
The design of the Stalker allowed to give it to him all the possibilities of Dragoons and the design of the Dragoon allowed to give it to him all the possibilities of Stalkers. The differences are negligible. It is a matter of taste.
Also all your new models. Take Starcraft 2 models as much as possible without any change. The acceptance of the players will be much higher. Most players don´t want a better SC:BW, but a better SC 2. And your converted models are often not cool enough to attract players. Take Starcraft 2 models. The benefit is greater.
Game speed is also a matter of taste. Oriented you to detectable facts, and not to taste. You will find hardly discussions about game speed. Hardly a player complains in the forum about the game speed. Therefore it is not a necessary solution. The game speed in StarBow most of the time feels good, but sometimes it feels a little unusually.
The balance between your invested time and the size of the effect is not efficient. Do you know the pareto principle?
Do you know how many players like or dislike the widow mine or the spider mine? If not, why the Widow Mine remove? There are not many facts that the widow mine is bad and can´t improve with tiny changes. It is a matter of taste.
The list is long.
I have a feeling 50% your changes based on taste and not on facts.
I hope these thoughts help you to improve your project.
Sorry for my bad english. ^^
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So my thoughts on the recent topics:
@Kabel:
Yeah I have talked a lot about how good unit design really can't be what the Colossus is. It needs something to allow more dynamic play. A unit can be standart and middle of the road as long as it has some small twist for divirsity AND is a massable normal army unit.
This is the case for Dragoons, Hydralisks, Roaches, Marines, Marauders, Zealots ect. None of these units have big glaring weaknesses or strengths, but they have some things for diversity still.
I think the new Marauder, Roach and Stalker are great by design, although the numbers "cough" Roach "cough" could use some tweaking.
If on the other hand the unit is supposed to be a specialist with some real power behind it, it needs some bigger weakspots to allow opponents to deal with them.
Siege Tanks, Reavers, Templar, Defilers, Arbiters ect. all have a whole array of weaknesses to exploit. During the games yesterday, Archons was mentioned as a counter example, but with their short range and massive size working against them, they also have some weak spots to help opponents.
Now what does the Colossus have? Heavy AOE damage, Good health, mobile and with good range. It really only has the weakness of being hit by anti air, which is a stupid weakness designed only for counter units to exist.
In my opinion the Colossus can only be balanced, if it is balanced for NOT being hit by anti air, and then adjusted later for reenabling this. It needs some kind of basic disadvantage for enemy units to exploit, or it will end up being toxic for the game. It could be extremely fragile. It could be slow like the Reaver. It could have some massive clunkyness to how it moves and shoots with long attack delay and some acceleration issues. I don't really know what the correct way to balance such a unit is, or if it should even be in the game.
@Millicant:
I agree with Laertes on how great it is for a newcomer to actually not give a buch of suggestions that have been discussed to death before, but instead commen directly on the issues in the current state of the game.
The macro mechanics are a bit similr yes, but I think its a nessesary evil to give more macro decisions with unlimited building selection. Kabel has tried to divirsify them as much as possible, but some things are simply not allowed by the engine.
I don't mind the Viper, as it kinda fills a unique support role for the swarm. Defilers are more agressive oriented, whereas Vipers are more defensive. This is also reflected by the fact that Defilers are ground based and easier to snipe, making offense harder than defense with Zerg casters.
Swarm hosts are units to keep a close eye on in the next few days. Roaches needs a bit of a nerf from what I saw, agree on this one.
Irradiate would be a better spell for the game if we could make Science Vessels a bit harder to control - maybe mess around a bit with acceleration values and cast time? I think the editor wizards already did a few things here, but more could not hurt imo.
I am a bit more positive with the overall "Redundant" units you mentioned. Marauders have been tweaked to have short range and lower dps, making them more of a buffer for Marines to have an easier time getting into the fray. This is the same role firebats usually would fill in many cases in BW, and Marauders have attacks that fit this role a bit better than FB's did. Stalkers are tweaked to be really fragile and mobile, making them find a role much like Mutalisk as hit and run raiders.
I like the new Roaches, although I would like to see their normal movespeed reduced (Keep burrowed speed high for fun micro)
Thors are another unit to see what happens with.
I do want to mention that Kabel seems to be a bit too happy with his "benign" units.
TL:DR - I think Colossi needs something big to change if they are allowed to stay, and Roaches need a slight nerf. Other units just need testing to determine what changes are needed, if any.
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Iam dirtybag
colossous
It was fun to use him as a protoss, but as the enemy so hard and probably boring if u cant do anything against him.
Me and kabel talked about him abit.
- Decrease his aoe, decrease his attackcooldown from 2 to 3-4.
- When his attack is on cooldown, he moves much slower.
This is a reminder to kabel, and to let people see the changes.
Unless he changed his mind ofcourse.
Dont forget. Terran mech is fun to play versus colossous, cuz of good siegetanks. You have the goliaths with 8range on air. But zerg, is ofcourse very problematic
Stalker
He feels okay. Would like to see some differences here from the dragoon.
So he is good against light for his cost, maybe very good? So how about make him range 4 total only.
Protoss uses him as a scout?
As a muta defender?
As a dps to lings to secure an expansion, or whatnot?
As a dps to marines to?
Thought about making him to consussive damage? It would make it more clean, only negative is he will become even worse against armored, but would it matter?
Thor, marauder
I tried the thor, and he is very boring to use for me. Very big, very slow. The intention seems to be to micro him with a dropship. Still sounds boring and besides, it becomes a reaver 2.0 but more boring.
When a reaver shoots, huge impact. While thor needs to shoot 2-3 times.
The marauder, meh. Feels okay to use. I understand his purpose, to survive things the marine cant.
He is funnier to use in sc2 for me, maybe because of his imba slow. I feel more agile in sc2 tho, probably because of the pathing system.
A replacement for thor would be thumbs up
Widowmine?
Something else?
Roach
He feels fun to use. A micro unit for zerg.
But his hp is so high. I feel he really needs quite a nerf to it.
He already have 2armor, it makes him good versus lings, marines, and zealots.
So the problem here, is a unit good versus aoe? Hm, his burrow could be used to be good against that or something.
THere are tons of stuff to do with his burrow.
I actually think the roach can be fun to play against mech.
And the spidermines will have a role against zerg which they didnt before, cuz hydras just raped them.
Now the roach have 3range just as a spidermine and shoots rather slow.
Potential to be great versus mech.
Swarm host
Very boring. I will try and tell why its a boring unit.
In sc2, the enemy simple walks around him if he cant fight him. And when i say "cant", i mean if he tries to he just loses so much stuff "for free".
The swarmhost suck in lownumbers, its like its not even worht it to make it. In big numbers, he is very good however.
Enemy needs aoe or highdps like the marines with heals. Which only terran have.
Although, if swarmhost becomes huge number, i think they are good against high amount of marines to? Not 100% here.
Look at the lurker, he can be great in lownumbers, big numbers. Can secure spaces. Can harass. Can attack.
He can do pretty much everything, compare this to the swarmhost.
Now iam not sure what the intention behind the 15gas cost for each locust is. Dont see what it fixes.
His takeover a unit ability, sounds very imbalanced and not very fun either, almost a nobrainer locust.
Some other things
@mines
Would be great if mines could hit stealth. It fixes so much.
Must be a way to make this happen?
@Scan
Make it not share energy? I feel terran really needs it. Its a way for them to scout. And to be offensive versus stealth without scienve vessel.
Protoss have obs, and stargate units and the new stalker
zerg have overlord(and overseer), they have mutas.
These stuff, fits into the meta and the units they scout with is used to fight later on.
Look at terran. A reaper costs tons of resources, and is useless later on.
Overall, terran feels kinda bad at scouting.
@Reaver
If his shoot is not a spell, he will be even worse against darkswarm.
Just poitning this out.
@Cannons nerfed.
You nerfed them quite heavy, like 0.5 attackspeed.
Can protoss survive against hydra bust? Will it be worth it to put cannons versus mutas?
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Also i forgot to mention.
The old problem with the spidermine is still there. Very hard to plant it consistensy.
Even if no enemy is nearby, its hard to plant it. Its like the vultures dont obey.
And if enemy is nearby its maybe even harder.
This is very crucial actually in tvp.
There are more concerns i have "ofcourse". The biggest for now is that protoss have no new good units versus mechplay.
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Colossus is problematic, as many expected, but I still wanted to give it a shot to see how it would feel in the context of Starbow.
Ye I agree with this. I couldn't play, but watching the vod's, it looked great and for a long time I been recommending something similar to the Sc2-collosus (lower range, more mobile). I think, however, this version of the collosus given the low cost has too much HP, which makes it too difficult to targetfire and kill. With 300HP and a cost of just 100/200, it almost works as a tank-unit, which I don't believe should be its role. It should be more fragile IMO. Its also debateable whether it should be vulnerable to AA.
I tried the thor, and he is very boring to use for me. Very big, very slow. The intention seems to be to micro him with a dropship. Still sounds boring and besides, it becomes a reaver 2.0 but more boring.
When a reaver shoots, huge impact. While thor needs to shoot 2-3 times.
I still like the idea of giving mech a tier 3 unit which has huge synergi with dropships. But the current version probably isn't the correct one. But I really don't think it should have splash AA. That's the role of the Viking (+ Irradiate).
Marauder. This falls back to the idea of redundancy (same as stalker). What does it REALLY do that a marine can't? What justifies it's existence?
It beats the Stalker and the Roach + buff vs mech --> Those it serves as a buff to bio. Otherwise bio heavy play would probably be unplayable in most situations.
Irradiate. I mentioned this in-game too. Spell is boring. Targets a single unit. Unit dies over time. neat... AoE irradiate: targets area, units must move out of area or take damage! Promotes micro, area control, and prolongs battles. Interesting
Yeh I agree, its not particuarlly interesting as a single damage spell. It is IMO interesting when used on a clump off units (such as vs Mutalisks) as it promotes splitting micro. I wouldn't mind if we modified it a bit by increasing the radius of the splash while making it not dealing damage to the targetted unit, but only the nearby units. This could make it a lot more microintensive and fun I believe.
Inter-racial redundancy. Protoss have chrono-boost. Terran have build-faster-ability (forget name). Zerg have larvae-faster ability (again with the name). These all sound too similar.
Orginally we wanted to make terrans boost a reactor-calldown, however due to editorissues we coulnd't make it work properly. Anyway, all races simply need a speed boost, otherwise balancing the game becomes way too complicated and we don't have enough ressources to do that. So instead, we go for a mathematically theoretical balance instead of blizzards approach of having 1,000,000 "playtesters" and a huge balance team.
Swarm Host. I don't like this unit in HotS, so I may be biased. I don't like it in Starbow either, especially with the tiny, long lasting, and non-auto targeted Weevils.
I think noone likes the SH in Sc2, and I don't know whether the SH can be modified to work properly. Regardless, I don't feel like its not something that is worth spending a lot of time on in Sbow. The Roach looked great, so I think zerg feels fun and different relative to BW - a new SH isn't needed.
Stalker. It doesn't seem to me that it fills a role that the dragoon doesn't
High damage vs light. Dragoon is other way around.
When that is said, I don't really understand the of being forced to target fire after blink. Feels very unintutive and an extra unnecesary complicatin, so I wonder Kabel, what's the logic behind that?
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Thanks for all feedback. I can not respond to everything though. But I will keep things in mind.
I will upload a patch with some bug fixes for the new patch. The only thing I will change in balance is the Colossus attack.
I will make it attack slightly slower and have a lower splash area.
I think we should see more games with the new stuff, so we can better determine if some things have potential at all, and if so, how we can balance it better.
Anyone feel like playing tonight too on EU? I will be online ca 3 hours from now at least.
@Hiders questions about Colossus and Stalker
+ Show Spoiler +Ok, I just wanna know your thoughts on its HP? Doesn't it seem very high given its cost? It does seem to be quite tanky yes. So maybe HP reduction or cost increament can be good. (150/200 instead of 100/200?) Maybe 250 total life? If I go lower, 2 Spider mines will kill it. I was also unsure if the tanky feeling came from the fact that enemy units just melted when they got close, since the Colossus attack radius was really big? Made it hard for low life units to snipe it? Its also debatble if it shall have the shield dmg reduction upgrade. (Otherwise Scourge hard counters it too brutally?) High damage vs light. Dragoon is other way around.
When that is said, I don't really understand the of being forced to target fire after blink. Feels very unintutive and an extra unnecesary complicatin, so I wonder Kabel, what's the logic behind that? I wanted Stalkers be fragile, mobile, with scouting and harassment potential. Kinda the "opposite" of Dragoon, but still feel kinda unique in the game. (As much as it is realistic to do to differenatiate it from Dragoons.) I looked at ways to make Stalkers better at harassing and do hit-and-run attacks. - Very high movement speed is one way, like Vultures have. (But Stalkers look silly when they move too fast.) - Fly, so it can avoid certain attacks from the enemy. - Abuse the terrain, which it can do with Blink. (Just as Reapers can do.) Since Stalkers are so fragile and deal low damage, I fear it will be hard to use Blink to do hit-and-run attacks to snipe enemy stuff, especially vs a larger blob of units. Blink into Dragoons to pick off a Reaver is suicide, for example. And we can´t have too high damage or too high range on Stalkers, because we know from past experience that it makes balls of Stalkers very hard to deal with. So I try this solution. Stalkers become benign for 3 seconds after Blinking. Enemy units will not attack them, unless ordered to target fire them. This allows Stalkers to always get the first shot off after Blinking, without being shot back, and still be able to retreat a bit away to avoid some enemy fire. The opponent can react though. Kinda like invulnerability with a interaction-based weak spot. I also feared it might be lame to Blink immediately into Tank lines. No counter micro possible for T? Now T has 3 seconds game time to focus fire a Stalker to prevent all the other Tanks from blasting it. It also makes it possible to dodge the new version of Spider mines + Scarab shots, which might lead to fun micro situations. But yes, it might be that this solution just feels odd. I am a bit doubtful myself, but I decided to try it with human opponents. Maybe Blink with only 1 second time, to get the first shot off, or no time at all, will work just fine.
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On November 26 2013 01:12 Kabel wrote:
Thanks for all feedback. I can not respond to everything though. But I will keep it in mind.
I will upload a patch with some bug fixes for the new patch. The only thing I will change in balance is the Colossus attack.
I will make it attack slightly slower and have a lower splash area.
Anyone feel like playing tonight too on EU? I will be online ca 3 hours from now at least.
Ok, I just wanna know your thoughts on its HP? Doesn't it seem very high given its cost?
It does seem to be quite tanky yes. So maybe HP reduction or cost increament can be good. (150/200 instead of 100/200?)
Maybe 250 total life? If I go lower, 2 Spider mines will kill it.
Ye 250 maybe thats about right. That's also like 4 tank shots. Atm it can soak up 5 tank shots.
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On November 25 2013 22:41 Foxxan wrote:
Also i forgot to mention.
The old problem with the spidermine is still there. Very hard to plant it consistensy.
Even if no enemy is nearby, its hard to plant it. Its like the vultures dont obey.
And if enemy is nearby its maybe even harder.
This is very crucial actually in tvp.
There are more concerns i have "ofcourse". The biggest for now is that protoss have no new good units versus mechplay.
Assuming that we can't find any editor-solution to the plant-mine issue, what's your opinion on compensating Vulturues with a lower plant-set up time. While it won't fix the consistency-issue, it will still make it much better to plant it during small battles --> Rewards micro (?).
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@colossous
Maybe 250 total life? If I go lower, 2 Spider mines will kill it.
Remember his upgrade though.
Besides, i dont found this problematic, even if it would kill him with only 2
Also, what happened to the "when his attack is on cooldown, he moves slower" or something. Remember? Or you wanna wait with this?
Would probably make him a bit more positional.
[Assuming that we can't find any editor-solution to the plant-mine issue, what's your opinion on compensating Vulturues with a lower plant-set up time. While it won't fix the consistency-issue, it will still make it much better to plant it during small battles --> Rewards micro (?).
Very hard to tell, worth a shot i guess
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Also, what happened to the "when his attack is on cooldown, he moves slower" or something. Remember? Or you wanna wait with this?
Would probably make him a bit more positional.
I wait with this. It is a solution that requires more editor work to make it feel right. Right now I will try a Colossues with lower splash area + damage, maybe lower life?
Unfortunately, all new units do not show up in the Unit tester. I PMed JohnnyZerg about it to see if he is able to help us all.
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On November 26 2013 01:53 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Also, what happened to the "when his attack is on cooldown, he moves slower" or something. Remember? Or you wanna wait with this?
Would probably make him a bit more positional. I wait with this. It is a solution that requires more editor work to make it feel right. Right now I will try a Colossues with lower splash area + damage, maybe lower life? Unfortunately, all new units do not show up in the Unit tester. I PMed JohnnyZerg about it to see if he is able to help us all.
Last thing I wanna ask you about for now....
Do you have some concerns regarding Scourge vs Collosus? I mean let's imagine scenario's where a protoss player tries to play an anti-deathball style by running around the map with 1 collosus, 1-3 dragoons/stalkers and a couple of zealots. Isn't that style extremely vulnerable to Scourges since you don't have enough firepower to kill the scourges before they hit the Collosus?
So doesn't it seem like the AA vulnerbility rewards deathball play? I guess in Sc2 it is neccesary due to its high range, however, with a range of just 6 (and 250 HP), it IMO doesn't need to be targetted by anti-air.
The intention seems to be to micro him with a dropship. Still sounds boring and besides, it becomes a reaver 2.0 but more boring.
I was thinking abit about what diference there is between Reaver in speed prism and Thor in dropship.
You could argue that both are "hero-units" in the sense that they can be indredicbly strong when babysitted. However, I believe the main difference here is that the reaver is basically unkillable if properly babysitted - at the same time it can deal a lot of damage. That creates a problem as it then needs to be countered by "special hardcounter"-abilities, such as Ghoast lockdown or Abduct. Thus, the Reaver (if properly babysitted) doesn't reward "straight up fair fights" at all. Quite the contrary actually, which IMO create lame gameplay.
With the Thor, I think there is a risk to using the "stun-thing" and it can actually be killed or severely injured even if baby-sitted, since it needs to get closer to its targets. Therefore I kinda like the concept behind the Thor, though I haven't seen it in practice yet.
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Last reply for now. Really gotta study : (
+ Show Spoiler +Last thing I wanna ask you about for now....
Do you have some concerns regarding Scourge vs Collosus? I mean let's imagine scenario's where a protoss player tries to play an anti-deathball style by running around the map with 1 collosus, 1-3 dragoons/stalkers and a couple of zealots. Isn't that style extremely vulnerable to Scourges since you don't have enough firepower to kill the scourges before they hit the Collosus?
So doesn't it seem like the AA vulnerbility rewards deathball play? I guess in Sc2 it is neccesary due to its high range, however, with a range of just 6 (and 250 HP), it IMO doesn't need to be targetted by anti-air. Yep, I thought about it too. I added an upgrade at Robotic bay that makes attacks above 40 only deal 40 dmg. Makes it survive better vs Scourges. (Maybe not optimal solution though.) Its also part of the reason I wanted Stalkers to start with Blink and be anti-light. Makes it easier to get in position vs Scourges, with proper micro. (Compared to Goons.) Stalker + Colossus fun synergy? One consequense of the AA vulnerability might indeed be that players just clump them together to protect them. But if that is removed, it will bring much confusion to players? Colossus AA vulnerabiity is such an iconic feature of the unit. ("Oh he goes Colossus. I get some Vikings. WTF they do not work! DAMN YOU KABEL! DAAAAMN YOOOOOUUUU!!")
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So doesn't it seem like the AA vulnerbility rewards deathball play? I guess in Sc2 it is neccesary due to its high range, however, with a range of just 6 (and 250 HP), it IMO doesn't need to be targetted by anti-air.
Hm, maybe you know about this
but he has an upgrade that makes him only take total 40 maximum damage when his shield is up.
I like this AA thing in starbow, makes the goliaths fun to use and scourges.
Also, one way to fix this problem if we keep the upgrade is to raise the shield of him and reduce his health.
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On November 26 2013 02:13 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +So doesn't it seem like the AA vulnerbility rewards deathball play? I guess in Sc2 it is neccesary due to its high range, however, with a range of just 6 (and 250 HP), it IMO doesn't need to be targetted by anti-air. Hm, maybe you know about this but he has an upgrade that makes him only take total 40 maximum damage when his shield is up. I like this AA thing in starbow, makes the goliaths fun to use and scourges. Also, one way to fix this problem if we keep the upgrade is to raise the shield of him and reduce his health.
Hmm didn't think of goliath vs collosus. interesting point.
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Collosus
Atm. this is slightly too similar to other protoss units such as Stalker, Reaver, Archon, HT - in the sense that it is kinda bad vs armored units and stronger vs low HP targets/light units.
I feel like protoss actually needs a tier 2 unit with these characteristica;
1) Strong all-round units in battles. This is actually a bit different from the Dragoon as it is very cost ineffective in some situations (etc. vs Hydras). Protoss needs a unit that trades somewhat evenly vs. most ground units.
2) Better vs armored units - The current version of the Collosus takes a long time to kill a Roach which means you need Dragoons to kill it, and since they kinda suck vs Hydra's - Roach/Hydra seems like a theoretically imbalanced midgame composition vs protoss. Protoss therefore needs a midgame unit that allows it to combat Roach/Hydra, but it should also be good vs vs bio and mech in order to reward more unit diversificaiton and straight up battles.
Suggestions
- Remove the line splash thing --> so it isn't extra good vs low HP targets
- Buff its damage vs armored targets by 50%. This means that it will do rouhgly 16*2 vs armored units and 11*2 vs everything else.
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EPT
