EPTBut I do agree on the collosus feeling a bit off in Starbow. Definetly feeding the deathball as well.
[A] Starbow - Page 467
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
But I do agree on the collosus feeling a bit off in Starbow. Definetly feeding the deathball as well. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
That's kinda making it an immortal. I think the Immortals identitiy is that it should be able to take some hits and stand in the front line while the Collosus should be more fragile to target firing. Thus a good player player should retreat with the collosus against target fire. That kind of micro is kinda fun I believe. But I do agree on the collosus feeling a bit off in Starbow. Definetly feeding the deathball as well. Its not more deathball'ish than a Dragoon really. It just doesn't have a proper role I believe. Model sizes Ultralisk is still too big relative to BW. I don't believe increasing the model size of the Thor is the right decision. Its just too annoying playing with big sized units (gets blocked unnecsarily). Rather change the color a bit. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
The Swarm Host you came up with is interesting! But I don't think it's working out in this form so far. Probably needs to go through a few redesigns to give him a real role. I love the Roach but some stat-tweaks seem to be in order still. Marauder is weird in the same game as the Firebat. I preferred it when they were combined into one unit that could switch modes. The new Thor sounds... interesting, haven't caught a game with it yet but I think it could have potential. Stalker still needs something more to differentiate it from the Dragoon. I think some sort of immobile stealth-and-attack mode might be fun to play around with, like it cloaks automatically if it stops moving for 4 seconds. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
The Swarm Host you came up with is interesting! But I don't think it's working out in this form so far. Probably needs to go through a few redesigns to give him a real role. The colossus is just pointless in this game. It was the worst design for a unit in SC2, and even with a TON of work and tweaking it can only ever be a mediocre unit at best for Starbow, rather than a poisonous game-ruining unit. Not worth the effort imo. What is the design flaw of the sbow-collosus? The flaw in Sc2 is that its very strong in deathballs as it fits in so nicely with its long range and its ability to step over friendly units. Its also too slow to be used for harass/aggresive purposes and the counter to it is boring (AA). Further, protoss always has less stuff than their opponent which means they need to turtle. We fixed all of those things in Sbow. Everything is set up for the Collosus to work well here. SH on the other hand. I think you can set up a poll in TL asking what is the worst designed unit. My bet is that Swarm Host will receive at least 10 times the votes as the Collosus. The Swarm host rewards passive turtle deathballish play in every single way. The Collosus on other hand doesn't neccesarily do that. Think about it - How is the Sbow version of the Collosus actually different from most other units? | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Added new units and researches. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
That's kinda making it an immortal. An immortal do 34dps to armored A colossous with hiders buff suggestion would make him do 11,6 dps to armored, and at the same time each armor reduces damage by 2. Also, the immortal with the same total health is way tankier with his passive. Not even close to an immortal Besides, armored units are generally quite big. So the aoe dont hit many units at all. The roach is the smallest armored unit (i think) I suggested to kabel to make his attack do aoe in a circle, and attack after one second. He would attack where he started to trigger, even if the enemy moved away. This would make him more effective to use manually, and also remove the player from wanna have very many since controlling alot of them would be very hard to use as effectiely as possible. Now with this change in mind, he will have to get an autoattack that can shoot on the ground, to make it work Would encouge fun micro for both sides | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
A colossous with hiders buff suggestion would make him do 11,6 dps to armored, and at the same time each armor reduces damage by 2. Hmmm its DPS is IMO really laughable. Maybe it can keep the AOE line thing and just receive a straight up 50% vs armored buff. If there is a problem with it being too difficult to attack/kill, then we can maybe increase the duration of the attack animation slightly. With the current damage, its simply too weak in straight up fights and thus it is almost a "kiting-unit". I suggested to kabel to make his attack do aoe in a circle, and attack after one second. Interesting idea. Is that an ability or is it its default attack? Regardless, don't you see a problem with making it too AOE-focused. AOE-abilities are automatically stronger vs low HP targets (typically light units), and protooss already has a enough stuff vs that (especially with the new tier 2 Stalker. Isn't what protoss needs a straight-up unit that is better vs especially armored units while still being decent vs medium/light targets (unlike the Dragoon). Swarm Host So I think Locusts shouldn't do any damage at all if we want to keep this unit in the game, because strong SH's by them selves just rewards passive deatlball'ish play regardless of how we tweak it. Suggested changes - Morph cost reduced to 0 minerals/50 gas. - Locusts deal 0 damage. - Each Swarm Host fires one additional Locust relative to before - Each Locust is free. This will make the SH awafull when massed since you then basically has an army that doesn't deal damage. But morphing a couple of Roaches into SH's can some times be a good idea as it allows you to overrun the opponents army if you time your attack correctly - e.g. by wasting Reaver Shots, Collosus Shots, Tank Shots on the Locusts. Stalker I think instead of the benigh-thing, why not just make the Stalker a bit faster in order to seperate the feeling of using it relative to the Dragoon + also making it better as a unit which works for it self. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
It is now normal for Zerg to make a simcity vs protoss and plug the hole with a queen. So the ultralisk should have the same footprint as the queen. It's now bigger and you need to break apart your simcity to make the ultralisk get out of your base which is very annoying. (not sure how units sizes work in the editor, maybe only buildings have footprints). I would love to see a test patch with only roach, marauder and this stalker as the new test units for a while. Roach hp or armor might need a slight nerf. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
(After two evenings of playtesting) Check out the test patch here, in case you have missed it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=465#9294 Roach + Show Spoiler + Seems to be the most fun and useful new unit. I enjoy playing both with it and against it, especially in PvZ. Potential problems: - Too beefy - Too easy to burst ramps with its burrow move ability? (Need to keep an eye on it) I think a HP reduction from 160 to 150 or 140 might be a justified small nerf. Tanks will 2-shot them, but burrowed Roaches will be 4-shotted. Swarm Host + Show Spoiler + Well, arguably not a very important or well designed unit. I wanted to try them out in Sbow, mainly because I feared Roaches would be useless later in the game without anything to morph into. The concept of Swarm Host is unique and Zergy - a slow lumbering unit who spawn endless waves of Zerg units. But in its normal version, it will probably just contribute to lame gameplay. If something cool comes to mind, maybe we can try it out. But if we find no fun way, I don´t mind removing this unit from the patch. Hider you suggest that Swarm Hosts can spawn Locusts with no attack. They just act as meat shields. Would that be useful and fun? Marauder + Show Spoiler + I think Doominator worded it well: So we only see bio in SC2 (unless you are avilo), and we only see mech in BW (unless you are flash who can pretty much do whatever the fak he wants anyways). The objective is for terrans to have THE ABILITY to do both or hybridize. Marauders fill the niche. Whether or not the balance holds up, we need more data to tell. Thor + Show Spoiler + Still have not seen any games with them. But I do think they serve an important role in especially lategame TvP. - P has much stronger defence in lategame than they had in BW - Warp in, Rift, Chrono boost Cannons. Once 5+ expansions are established, they can get instant defence from all Warp gates at any of their expansions who are under attack. Rift can be used to get high tech units there aswell. - T has no other late game harassment alternatives, besides Vultures + Siege Tanks. And that was fair in BW, where Protoss did not have Chrono boost, Warp in or Rift... With Thor in the game, T has a better way of taking down heavily defended bases via drop harassment in the late game, since the Hammerstrike abiliy + its normal splash attack allows them to cope with 10+ instant warped in Zealots + Rifted support units much better than Vultures + Tanks can do. But this is ofc just speculation. I will not modify anything with the Thor yet until we´ve seen it used more. Stalker + Show Spoiler + Has not seen that much play yet either. One alternative to the Blink benign thing (if it turns out to be boring), is indeed to increase the Stalkers movement speed and just have normal Blink. I can not increase the movement speed too much though, since the Stalker model looks odd when it moves too fast. Colossus + Show Spoiler + The deathball aspect of Colossus comes from the combination of high mobility, super high range + splash damage. Especially splash damage makes a critical amount of Colossues very hard to attack into with low life units like Hydras. Imagine if Colossues had the Dragoon attack + range. Would +5 Colossues together be more of a deathball problem than 5 Dragoons? I like the mobiliy aspect of the Colossus. Feels fun to micro it since it can use the terrain in more ways than most other ranged units can. If it is impossible to catch them for enemy Hydras, Roaches, Bio etc, I think there are ways to solve that. for example: - slightly slower Colossus speed - slightly shorter attack range - slowed temporarily when attacking (Get in good position before shooting) I think both Hider and Dirtybag have good suggestions regarding its attack: - Smaller splash area. Higher dmg especially vs armored units. (Like Marauders, Roaches, Dragoons) - Adjust the way the attack works. Maybe make Colossues able to focus fire areas on the ground, and then add a 1 sec delay before the attack hits. Makes it harder to control many Colossues and requiers micro from both players. (As Dirty says) What can be reasonable values? 260-250 total life instead of 300. Same speed and attack range. (2.55 and 6) Same slow attack cooldown. 8x2 vs medium and light, instead of 2x11? Or 2x10? ca 14x2 vs armored, instead of 2x11? Smaller splash area. 150/150 cost instead of 100/200. 125/150? 70 seconds BT instead of 90. No "hardened shield" upgrade? Would 3-shot Workers, Zerglings and Marines. Stronger vs armored. But it is cheaper and easier to obtain. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Regardless, don't you see a problem with making it too AOE-focused. AOE-abilities are automatically stronger vs low HP targets (typically light units), and protooss already has a enough stuff vs that (especially with the new tier 2 Stalker. Isn't what protoss needs a straight-up unit that is better vs especially armored units while still being decent vs medium/light targets (unlike the Dragoon). Well, Ye kinda. If he loses his aoe, he will be pretty bad i think against lings,hydras and so on and only good against armored. I can see a problem with that also. What i would like here is a very small aoe against light unitts. Decent vs medium. And Okay versus armored. He do 11*2 now, in aoe against everything. What about his aoe against light would be around 6only, against medium maybe 10, armored 15. Or change it so in the circle, units in the middle take 100% damage, while units not in the middle of the circle takes less. Almost like the new widowmine change, something like that Interesting idea. Is that an ability or is it its default attack? Was thinking an default attack. But to give him an ability to make him able to autoattack on the ground. colossus I actually think it needs to have its "hardened shield", because of scourges and siegetanks. With this upgrade, the colossous can move out in small squads and do stuff. A decrease in total health would be good, especially versus zerg but, increase his shield though for his upgrade purpose, or else scourges will simple just kill it? Even with the upgrade? I like the 125/150 and 70bt, although i would feel better if it got improved even further. About his damage. It sounds decent. Worth a shot, what i would wanna try is this instead: 20*2 damage -> armored 10*2 damage-> medium 5*2 damage->light with same attackcooldown, 2.75. He will do 14.75dps against armored, not counting armor here(all armored units in general have atleast one base armor) So its consussive type but the opposite. If the damage somehow gets problematic, simple increase cooldown further. While doing all this, a delay while he shoots, and in a circle i think is better. Not sure why! PS: with an attacksystem like this, there is a possibility to make him get +2 for each upgrade. Right? Against medium it would give 1, and against light 0.5 | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
This unit does not like me, try to replace it with the impaler + Show Spoiler + Maybe adding a minimum range as the tank. I think this unit will contribute to a positional game. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Make the attack last 1.5 - 2 seconds focused on a single spot on the ground. The Colossus deals damage every 0.5 second to units within this small area, instead of one single burst. Makes micro important, but does not invalidate the damage if the opponent moves out of the attack fast. Nerf the Colossus shields to a much lower value, but add the ability: "Directed shielding" that reduces shield damage done by AA attacks by 50%. Make Colossus turn speed really slow. Give Colossus minimum range. EDIT: Oh yeah, the impaler. That unit seems like it would fit nicely as a Roach upgrade. Maybe still visible when burrowed, but with increased armor. Focus on long ranged initial burst, but with slow attacks and overall bad dps. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
It just sucks. Its damage is way way too low. I think it easily can be 10*2 vs light, 15*2 vs medium and 20*2 vs armored while keeping the current line-splash. Marines: Seems too cost effective vs non-splash: I think it should be 40 HP like in BW imo. Hider you suggest that Swarm Hosts can spawn Locusts with no attack. They just act as meat shields. Would that be useful and fun? Don't know - I kinda like concept behind morphing Roaches into something. But I think we need to go a far deal away from the current SH in order to create something that isn't bad for gameplay. My suggestion definitely won't make the SH part of a standard zerg composition like the Lurker is, but I think it is fine if this type of SH is more of a niche-unit. I feel like its worth trying - mainly cus I see no other decent solution. The deathball aspect of Colossus comes from the combination of high mobility, super high range + splash damage. I think its quite the contrary. The lower mobility of the Collosus, the less efficient it is to split it up and the more you need to turtle because you don't have the mobility to defend against counterattacks. Thor I think the problem here is that it isn't really differentiated relative to the Tank/Vulture. It simply doesn't do anything in battles that these two units can't which means that it will suffer from the "dominate/dominated"-issue. IMO we need to give players a reason to get the Thor, because right now - noone really has any idea how to use it and when to get it. The harass-reason isn't really solid as noone wants to build an expensive tier 3.5 unit just to harass. A tier 3 units main purpose should be related to battles. I like the general concept behind a very microable tier 3 mech unit, but I feel like the current Thor fails in two ways; 1) Doesn't feel like the reward for using it together with a dropship is that significant (relative to a Reaver for instance). Part of the problem here is that it takes time for it to attack after being unloaded by a dropship. For dropship-micro to be efficient, its attack needs to be instant. 2) Needs to have something that gives it synergy with Tanks/Vultures to avoid the domination-problem. For the latter, I talked a bit about it with Dirty and we both agreed that one of the awesome things with the old dropship pickup was that it made mech microintensive in battles. You could pick up injured/targetted siege tanks in dropships and take them to the back of the battle, which was extremely fun and had a very high skill ceiling. I think it would be awesome if we could apply a similar concept to the Thor. Maybe the Thor could simply pull Tanks back in some way? For the former, I don't really know yet, but it definitely needs to be ability-based, which means it probably can be solved with enough creativity. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
(( Thank you johnny for fixint the unit tester! )) | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Could be remembering that wrong though. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On November 27 2013 07:28 Kabel wrote: (( Thank you johnny for fixint the unit tester! )) Not at all! :D | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Based on some unit testings, I made the following observations; - Pure a-moved Roaches loses to micro'ed Dragoons (equal cost) - Pure Hydra loses to zealot + Dragoons (equal cost) - A mix of Hydra/Roaches can beat Zealot + Dragoons (equal cost) This looks good, however, it also becomes clear that protoss needs a strong tier 2 unit as a response to the Roach (otherwise zerg is buffed relative to BW). Right now Collosus is IMO close to useless as it has way too low DPS. Therefore I suggest that we put the Collosus against Roach/Hydra and adjust its stats untill the outcome replicates the BW income (where it was just pure Hydra vs Zealot/Dragoon only). Further Robo tech units also needs a production boost IMO. With a cost of 200/200 + the fact that you need to build multiple observers, you have very little room to actually get Collosus out. And if you also want to use Warp Prism's --> You probably need multiple (3 or so) Robo's and you simply can't afford that in the midgame. Either go for an across-the board BT reduction and/or reduce cost of Robo to 150/150. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
For the latter, I talked a bit about it with Dirty and we both agreed that one of the awesome things with the old dropship pickup was that it made mech microintensive in battles I didnt say this. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
What did you imply then? | ||
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