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[A] Starbow - Page 469

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-01 23:27:40
December 01 2013 22:31 GMT
#9361
The future?

Here is the deadline for Starbow:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
21 January 2014.
Exactly 2 years since I made the first post in this thread.
(Time just flies away...)
<<<

And what do you mean with a deadline?

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
The game will be "released" at that point. No more work will be done, except bug fixes,
- I will make a big post in SC2 general where I present this.
- Maybe a large post on Reddit?
- Update the Wiki.
- Make some vods?
- Host a tournament?

We will see if the game is good and fun enough to appeal to a larger player pool. If so, maybe we can work on a ranking system and continue to grow the community. It all depends on how this project is received by people.
<<<

Ok, and how is it going with the test patch?

>>>+ Show Spoiler +


Short summary:

Roach fits well. Needs better balance.

Marauder fits too. Needs better balance?

Stalker is more narrow than Zealot + Dragoon, but is still useful in some scenarios. Needs more work, especially with Blink.


Swarm Host will likely be removed. Maybe it can become an Impaler, or something more fun can be done with it. But it is not high on my priority list to do that. If there ever is a Starbow expansion, perhaps something better can be done with it in the future. I gave it a try, and it did not fit. Roaches seem just fine without anything to morph into at this point.

Thor
will likely be removed too. I do think this unit can find a home in the game, but it will require more work to get it right.
I don´t have that much time to work in the editor + playtest nowadays. So I put priority on units that will likely see play in the midgame, like Marauder, Roach, Stalker.

And here is the million dollar dilemma:

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss "needs" a midgame unit that can fight vs Marine + Marauder and Roach/Hydra in the midgame. The new units are very strong vs pure Gateway armies. It kinda forces P to "rush" for Reaver or Storm/Archon for AoE. Kinda as in PvZ vs mass Hydras in BW.

It would be nice if P could get a unit who can fight decently well vs them. (As many of you have advocated for a while now.)
I currently play around with the Colossus but have not found a good version of it yet. An alternative is to use Immortal, but it feels more lame IMO, since we already have the Dragoon. Colossus feels more different. There are not not many other models to use for a robitic unit. (Sentinel requires new spells and is too time consuming to make.)

The current version of Colossus is mobile and swift with a small splash attack. If P shoots, backs away, shoots, the Colossus only damages one unit. If must stand still for 2-3 seconds to channel its beam towards the ground to deal splash damage. (It moves slowly in a line..) This makes it vulnerable vs enemy attacks, plus it allows enemy micro vs the beam. It is however not perfect yet.

You can check out the current version of it in the Starbow Unit Tester. (If Johnny has updated it)

The main point is to make the unit feel fun to play with and against, plus make sure it has a purpose/role in the game. Some units are however more narrow than others, even in BW.
<<<
<<<
Creator of Starbow
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-01 23:21:51
December 01 2013 23:20 GMT
#9362
The current version of Colossus is mobile and swift with a small splash attack. If P shoots, backs away, shoots, the Colossus only damages one unit. If must stand still for 2-3 seconds to channel its beam towards the ground to deal splash damage. (It moves slowly in a line..) This makes it vulnerable vs enemy attacks, plus it allows enemy micro vs the beam. It is however not perfect yet.


How is the current Collosus in terms of balance? Looking at the stats (without having played it), it still seems a bit weak - but maybe I am wrong (?)

Secondly, what are your thoughts on making robo tech easier to build stuff from? Given the high cost of the tech + the fact that you need multiple observers, it feels unpractical to build units from it. At least in the midgame, where you just can't afford to throw down multiple Robo's.

Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
December 01 2013 23:27 GMT
#9363
@Colo stats

The stats are weak atm.

@Cost of Robo


It might need to be cheaper yes. But if so, maybe T and Z should get some cheaper tech aswell to maintain the cost ratio balance. Preferably tech that encouarges harassment/action/map presence, for example Starport (faster Dropships etc)
Creator of Starbow
JohnnyZerg
Profile Joined July 2012
Italy378 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 00:45:20
December 02 2013 00:39 GMT
#9364
Unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" Updated!
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
December 02 2013 11:45 GMT
#9365
I will say the following through. You may want to stretch that deadline just a little bit.

Patch 2.1 is coming and with that comes extension mods. It could serve us well to make Starbow one of those, as it would highlight it a lot compared to normal mods, even through Starbow is not that playable on common maps. It would also mean that we would only need to have one mod as opposed to have the mod updated individually on each starbow map.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
[SC]Django
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland44 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 14:01:58
December 02 2013 13:36 GMT
#9366
- I will make a big post in SC2 general where I present this.
- Maybe a large post on Reddit?
- Update the Wiki.
- Make some vods?
- Host a tournamen

Very good idea and on the first page in teamliquid website
I think the game need pro players opinion and maybe change the logo starbow for the better ?
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 02 2013 14:10 GMT
#9367
My cuisine is working on a better logo. He is almost done. It looks pretty sick
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-02 14:50:31
December 02 2013 14:46 GMT
#9368
On December 02 2013 08:27 Kabel wrote:
@Colo stats

The stats are weak atm.

@Cost of Robo


It might need to be cheaper yes. But if so, maybe T and Z should get some cheaper tech aswell to maintain the cost ratio balance. Preferably tech that encouarges harassment/action/map presence, for example Starport (faster Dropships etc)


Ok. I suggest that we try to tweak those stats before we consider nerfing the Roach.
Starport could also perhaps be slightly cheaper since that will reward builds that are more aggressive in nature. Currently, I also don't see Banshee-openings as being particularly strong - so a small buff in that direction wouldn't hurt I think. One of the problems with Banshee openings are also that Cloack takes forever to research. Have you checked whether its the same as in Sc2 or have you changed it recently?
Doominator10
Profile Joined August 2012
United States515 Posts
December 03 2013 22:15 GMT
#9369
Suggestion:

Unit: Viper:
Ability: Ensare
Current: Throw slow goo blob at target area. Units in the target area move slower (attack slower? Not sure)
New: Throw slightly faster goo blob at target area. That area slows units moving through it for a set time.
Reasoning: Zone control abilities like storm and dark warm are more interesting and have use even if they don't connect. The current ensare is completely useless if it misses and doesn't really seem to do a whole lot as it is. Making ensare last even if it doesn't immediately connect gives vipers more use besides just abducting something.

+ Show Spoiler +
Still want to make viper baneling work somehow...


Ability: Breed
Current: Existing
New: Removed
Reasoning:This seems quite uneccesary. Abduct, Consume, and Ensare are more than enough for a kit.
Your DOOM has arrived,,,, and is handing out cookies
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-04 06:08:44
December 04 2013 06:08 GMT
#9370
@Ensnare

Zone-control spells are indeed fun. But Ensnare needs to work on air units too, IMO. If there is a green goo spawned on the ground that slows all units in it or above it, that will look odd for air units, plus the spell can´t be used on impassable terrain (like above water, over trees etc.) Unless the green goo is some kind of cloud that hovers above the terrain. It might be possible to do but will require some frustrating editor work. Nothing I will focus on atm since I have some other problems to wrestle.


@Breed

It was removed from the game ca 2-3 months ago.

@Cloak

Sbow Cloak for Banshee has remained the same for a long time. I am not home atm so I can not check out the research time.

Creator of Starbow
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 04 2013 08:52 GMT
#9371
@ Cloak.

I really think we should either have a short cloak timing (like before) with a cooldown (and no upgrade if the time is short enough), or have energy like SC2. What we have now just feels weird IMO.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 04 2013 12:44 GMT
#9372
Just trowing out an unfinished logo here:

[image loading]

Feedback?
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
[SC]Django
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland44 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-04 14:07:42
December 04 2013 14:07 GMT
#9373
Change background for like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6qZdMlH_D0k/UA9IsQ0rVqI/AAAAAAAABCo/SvOhXir9xTo/s1600/starcraft-2logo.jpg
or diffrent.
StarBow logo color change.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 04 2013 15:34 GMT
#9374
On December 04 2013 23:07 [SC]Django wrote:
Change background for like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6qZdMlH_D0k/UA9IsQ0rVqI/AAAAAAAABCo/SvOhXir9xTo/s1600/starcraft-2logo.jpg
or diffrent.
StarBow logo color change.


There will be a background (unless people don't want it), this was just letters and colors.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
December 04 2013 16:26 GMT
#9375
Looks nice!
Working on Starbow!
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-04 19:54:10
December 04 2013 19:52 GMT
#9376
I think the logo looks really good. Definitely feels more Starcrafty!

But I still wonder if the Xel Naga temple as the letter O is visible enough?
Maybe its just me, but I read it like StarBYW.

I also upload a small bug patch now.
(Finally Overlords move to the normal unit rally point and NOT to mineral patches..)
Creator of Starbow
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-04 23:21:38
December 04 2013 23:14 GMT
#9377
Thanks for the games today.

We had a discussion regarding some imbalances, especially in TvP early/mid game.
Foxxan, can you write a list here to sum up your concerns?

We also discussed macro mechanics. Especially Calldown SCV is claimed to be too good. Here are the values used in the game, and the calculations I have done:

Values for macro mechancis
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

Upgrade Nexus
- 100 minerals
- 40 sec BT
- Starts with 50 energy
- Max energy 100
- Requires Gateway

- CB lasts 20 seconds, boosts by 50% and costs 15 energy.
- Rift cooldown 60 seconds, costs 50 energy.

Queen
- 150 minerals
- 40 sec BT
- Starts with 50 energy
- Max energy 100
- Requires Pool

- Inject lasts 24 seconds, boosts Larva by 50% and costs 15 energy.
- Creep tumor 25 energy
- Nurturing swarm costs 25 energy, heals 75 life OR speed up morphing structure by 50% during 20 seconds.

Orbital command
- 125 minerals
- 40 sec BT
- Starts with 50 energy
- Max energy 100
- Requires Barrack

- Calldown SCV cooldown 30 sec, costs 25 energy and 50 minerals.
- Overcharge costs 15 energy, boosts production speed by 50% at a Barrack, Factory or Starport during 15 seconds.
- Scan 25 energy.

Terran can still build Reactors and they work as in SC2. Engingeering bay is required though, to avoid breaking early game.

Overcharge and Chrono boost are essentially the same kind of mechanic. The difference lies in CB being better at higher tech units & upgrades, while Overcharge becomes better when used on a structure with a Reactor.

In pure time:
CB reduces production by 10 seconds.
Overcharge reduces production by 7.5 seconds. (If used on a structure with Reactor - production reduced by 15 seconds)


The Calldown-One-Time-Reactor-ability I tried to build a while ago did not work due to editor problems, so it will likely never get implemented into the game.
<<<

Worker production:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Here is the time it takes to produce 12 workers from 1 main base without any macro mechanics:

- T - 211.2 seconds
- P - 211,2 seconds
- Z - 234 seconds (The Hatchery starts with 1 Larva)

If each race produces workers non-stop from 1 main base, and uses constant CB, Inject and Calldown SCV, this is the time it takes to produce 12 workers:

- T - ca 150 seconds
- P - ca 150 seconds
- Z - ca 168 seconds (The Hatchery starts with 1 Larva)

The relationship between the races is almost intact. (No race has a macro advantage over another.) All races now have potential to boost their worker production by the same % value. (Ca 40%)
<<<

Army production:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I measured how many Marines, Zealots and Zerglings can be produced during 2 minutes from 1 production structure, without any macro mechanics. Normal values:

Z - 6,15x2 Zerglings from 1 Hatchery that starts with 1 Larva, during 2 minutes.
P - 3,5 Zealots from 1 Gateway during 2 minutes.
T - 5,7 Marines from 1 Barrack during 2 minutes.


If each race uses CB, Inject or Overcharge non-stop on the same production structure, this is the amount of units who are produced during 2 minutes:

Z - 9x2 Zerglings (46% more efficient production)
P - 5,2 Zealots. (48% more efficient production)
T - 7,6 Marines (33% more efficient production, 66% more efficient production if used on a structure with Reactor)

I tested some other units aswell. The relationship seems to be intact no matter what, All macro mechanics now have potential to boost army production by the same % value, if players use macro mechanics non-stop.
<<<

Other macro thoughts:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
Apart from the worker + army boost, each race has a way to boost tech:
- Zerg can boost structures morph speed
- Chrono boost can boost upgrades
- Terran can switch Tech labs to save some time.

There are also some other differences in the macro mechanics:
- Calldown SCVs can be used anywhere on the map.
- Overcharge boosts movement speed on flying structures.
- Terran can still scan
- Queen can heal with Nurturing Swarm + Spread Creep.
- Chrono boost can be used on Cannons
- Rift can be used for early aggression or for defecene

The points of the macro mechanics are:
- Give an APM demanding macro aspect - there is a skill difference in macroing, due to APM, multitasking and focus.
- Speed up the production of the game a bit. BW had IMO a long start up phase before the "fun stuff" could happen.
<<<



Zealot + Zerglings miss a lot, and it seems to yield lot of frustration. I will try to look into it in the editor and see what I can do.

Vulture + Spider mines need more editor work. (As always. Its so hard to get them to feel right in the SC2 engine because there is always a new bug showing up.)
Creator of Starbow
Nerevar
Profile Joined January 2013
547 Posts
December 04 2013 23:17 GMT
#9378
Are you guys going to investigate implementing Starbow with the extension mods feature that is coming out with 2.1?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-04 23:35:06
December 04 2013 23:23 GMT
#9379
Stalker

Like the new movement speed. That felt pretty good. But blink needs to go back to standard. This unit will ofc be useless vs mech unless it gets some kind of special anti-mech ability (something I suggest a while ago). However, implementing that will be too time-consuming. Nevertheless, I think its fine to have this as a semi-niche harass oriented unit. But maybe BT could be lower? I think its 40 seconds which is kinda high given that it is cheaper and weaker now.

Collosus

It felt very off controlling this unit when you are used to it from Sc2. I guess sc2 protoss players will have an even more difficult/annoying time. The issue is that since it can't step over friendly units, that it moves in totally different directions than what your used to in Sc2, which kinda makes micro'ing it a bit annoying. While its true that it scales better if it can step over friendly units, I still wanna see how that really works out in practice. IMO the most important thing in the game is that it is fun to control the units, and I simply think it becomes a lot more fun when it moves in the directions that you expect it too.

Another thing - it doesn't feel as reactionable as I had hoped. The whole move back - attack - move back again think, feels a bit slow - that may result in micro not being rewarded as much. Ofc we don't want the collosus to be a unit that you just move-back and kite with all the time. However, if it is too unreactionable, then you can't even individual select Collosus and micro them back. I think its less of a risk if the Collosus gets too good when kited relative to the micro-benefit we can have if it becomes more reactionable (aka it attacks faster after it is moved back).

Dec made the Immortal more reactionable, and I wonder if the same thing could be implemented for the Collosus?

When that is said, I think the role the Collosus can and should serve is very important for the game, and it has the possibly of being a really fun unit if done correctly.


PvT early game


Protoss needs some way of punishing/dealing damage against terrans that get double OC when they go dragoon range. Not sure what the best solution is here - but I think the "most safe" change is a research time reduction of range by like 15 seconds (or so).
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
December 04 2013 23:24 GMT
#9380
Are you guys going to investigate implementing Starbow with the extension mods feature that is coming out with 2.1?


Not sure exactly how the extension mods will work. But I will look more into it once the patch gets closer to release.
Creator of Starbow
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