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On June 10 2011 15:35 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote:On June 10 2011 14:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 14:22 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that.  On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics. Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules. There's really no way to weasel your way out of it. And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard. "Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." ~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm Just diggin yourself a bigger hole  But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night. Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have. if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. http://www.justice.gov/dea/concern/steroids.html#1 no I'm sorry but steroids ARE illegal in the US. They are not just against contract in pro sports leagues, they are illegal. Also as many have said about this subject, while keyboards capable of macros are perfectly fine with blizzard, using macros that simulate more than 1 key press on b.net is bannable.
okay, guess this might be the case. steroids are in the regulated drugs list. but saying that using macros in starcraft is illegal is definitely wrong. regardless of jurisdiction.
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On June 10 2011 15:44 TangJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote:
Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have.
if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. lol im sorry but steroids aren't illegal in hong kong/china?!! wtf?!
Wat? He says they aren't illegal and you say they aren't illegal. I'm confused :o?
Grubby has a contract with Steelseries, and part of his contract is most likely to aid in the promotion of Steelseries products with his persona via direct advertisement and by using their gear. Don't see how it is his fault that he is explaining how to use their products to their full potential. It's kind of his job to do it. I don't know why people are "disappointed in grubby", when all he is doing is fulfilling his contractual obligations to his sponsor.
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On June 10 2011 15:44 TangJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote:
Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have.
if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. lol im sorry but steroids aren't illegal in hong kong/china?!! wtf?!
you won't be put in jail if you take steroids, if that's what you mean. yes, it is not illegal.
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On June 10 2011 15:45 TheImmortal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 15:35 hunts wrote:On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote:On June 10 2011 14:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 14:22 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics. Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules. There's really no way to weasel your way out of it. And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard. "Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." ~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm Just diggin yourself a bigger hole But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night. Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have. if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. http://www.justice.gov/dea/concern/steroids.html#1 no I'm sorry but steroids ARE illegal in the US. They are not just against contract in pro sports leagues, they are illegal. Also as many have said about this subject, while keyboards capable of macros are perfectly fine with blizzard, using macros that simulate more than 1 key press on b.net is bannable. okay, guess this might be the case. steroids are in the regulated drugs list. but saying that using macros in starcraft is illegal is definitely wrong. regardless of jurisdiction.
I agree with you, with the normal use of the word "legal" or "illegal" you can't say using macros in SC2 is illegal, as there is no law about it. However blizzard has said that it is against their TOS (macros being 1 button that simulates more than 1 key press) and is something they can ban for (I don't know if they have banned for it before)
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Alright, so after keeping up with this thread for the first 18 pages or so and becoming genuinely interested in Blizzard's official stance on using macros in StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty I decided to use their new online ticket petitioning system.
Now, it was pretty easy getting to the ticket system from the SC2 official website. There were a couple of links that took me to the same petitioning queue, shown here:
+ Show Spoiler +
I filled out all the requested info and posed my question. Response was pretty fast, only took about 6 hours I think (I'm being honest, I've had to wait longer for other customer support). Here's the question posed and the official response:
+ Show Spoiler +
Since I didn't want to queue again in what was obviously a sinister trap deployed by Mike Morhaime himself (there isn't even a WoW account attached to my Battle.net account), I decided to believe that their official stance is "macros are fine".
Someone else more brave or more foolhardy than myself can feel free to try again.
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Macro keys is somehow news to people? Cool beans.
On June 10 2011 16:07 urashimakt wrote:Alright, so after keeping up with this thread for the first 18 pages or so and becoming genuinely interested in Blizzard's official stance on using macros in StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty I decided to use their new online ticket petitioning system. Now, it was pretty easy getting to the ticket system from the SC2 official website. There were a couple of links that took me to the same petitioning queue, shown here: + Show Spoiler +I filled out all the requested info and posed my question. Response was pretty fast, only took about 6 hours I think (I'm being honest, I've had to wait longer for other customer support). Here's the question posed and the official response: + Show Spoiler +Since I didn't want to queue again in what was obviously a sinister trap deployed by Mike Morhaime himself (there isn't even a WoW account attached to my Battle.net account), I decided to believe that their official stance is "macros are fine". Someone else more brave or more foolhardy than myself can feel free to try again.
You are awesome, sir!
It's a bit of a gray area. People HAVE been banned from WoW for using macro keys. One instance was this guy that set up a mage macro to cast fireball repeatedly and then drink, then TAB (reselect a new target) and repeat. Very simple. However, he walked away from his keyboard for a minute and a GM whispered him to check if he was a bot. He got banned. >.< It's just too easy to automate a game like WoW because it's so simple at times (grinding mobs).
Anyway, macro keys wouldn't be too practical IMO. Grubby/Steelseries are just trying to promote the keyboard macro features. I have macro keys on my keyboard and your production capabilities and needs change too much to have fixed macros for them.
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On June 10 2011 16:11 Ownos wrote:
Macro keys is somehow news to people? Cool beans.
I'm not certain that you read the thread before replying to it. I'm positive most Teamliquid denizens have heard of macro keys before this point in time.
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Your answer from Blizzard is basically what I said about 30 pages ago. Blizzards stance has always been: Macro with input devices while at your keyboard -> ok; macro while not at your keyboard -> not ok.
Edit: And I still think Grubby/Steelseries ruin their reputation with the commercial. I am not trying to justify anything here; neither the use of macro devices nor the commercial for them.
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On June 10 2011 16:14 grs wrote:
Your answer from Blizzard is basically what I said about 30 pages ago. Blizzards stance has always been: Macro with input devices while at your keyboard -> ok; macro while not at your keyboard -> not ok.
Edit: And I still think Grubby/Steelseries ruin their reputation with the commercial. I am not trying to justify anything here; neither the use of macro devices nor the commercial for them.
Yes, well:
On June 10 2011 16:07 urashimakt wrote:
Alright, so after keeping up with this thread for the first 18 pages or so and becoming genuinely interested in Blizzard's official stance on using macros in StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty I decided to use their new online ticket petitioning system.
Some may see it as a waste of time, but after being unable to look up Blizzard's actual words in this thread or on any of Blizzard's sites, I decided to track it down and provide it to others who'd like to see it.
I didn't mean to offend you by acting as though I didn't believe you.
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On June 10 2011 16:19 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 16:14 grs wrote:
Your answer from Blizzard is basically what I said about 30 pages ago. Blizzards stance has always been: Macro with input devices while at your keyboard -> ok; macro while not at your keyboard -> not ok.
Edit: And I still think Grubby/Steelseries ruin their reputation with the commercial. I am not trying to justify anything here; neither the use of macro devices nor the commercial for them. Yes, well: Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 16:07 urashimakt wrote:
Alright, so after keeping up with this thread for the first 18 pages or so and becoming genuinely interested in Blizzard's official stance on using macros in StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty I decided to use their new online ticket petitioning system. Some may see it as a waste of time, but after being unable to look up Blizzard's actual words in this thread or on any of Blizzard's sites, I decided to track it down and provide it to others who'd like to see it. I didn't mean to offend you by acting as though I didn't believe you.
Sorry, I did not mean it as buthurt as it probably sounded.
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On June 10 2011 16:13 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 16:11 Ownos wrote:
Macro keys is somehow news to people? Cool beans. I'm not certain that you read the thread before replying to it. I'm positive most Teamliquid denizens have heard of macro keys before this point in time.
Doesn't look like it to me. lol
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bad move steelseries ... i have no quarrel with grubby after all he is on their paycheck
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It isn't Grubby's fault, he definitely doesn't use macros he is just following the script that Steelseries gave him. I am disappointed not in him cheating but rather how he let this happen. Grubby is actually very smart and intelligent in everything that he does but this case has been a very sad exception.
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This doesn't count as cheating, anything saying so, is stupid. Blizzard has in ALL of their games allowed software etc. to help simplify things, for the casual, things which is however which is not allowed in tournament useage.
I'm almost 100% sure that grubby would never use this at any time, because he isn't allowed to use them at tournaments anyway.
This is like, WoW, with the addons, which is things you can have in mostly any game
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On June 10 2011 16:31 Cinim wrote:
This doesn't count as cheating, anything saying so, is stupid. Blizzard has in ALL of their games allowed software etc. to help simplify things, for the casual, things which is however which is not allowed in tournament useage.
I'm almost 100% sure that grubby would never use this at any time, because he isn't allowed to use them at tournaments anyway.
This is like, WoW, with the addons, which is things you can have in mostly any game
The problem a policy saying that it is okay to use it on ladder is that it will become widespread in small online tournaments (obviously not by the very top as the opportunity cost of learning something you can't use at LAN is higher than the expected profit gained by using macros) and to catch those macros will be a lot of work for the tournament admins to ensure the integrity of their competition.
A general "no macros (2+ actions with 1 key press) are allowed and you get banned if you use them" policy by Blizzard would be lot stronger deterrent to not use them than the potential bust by admins of a online tournament.
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On June 10 2011 16:35 TBO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 16:31 Cinim wrote:
This doesn't count as cheating, anything saying so, is stupid. Blizzard has in ALL of their games allowed software etc. to help simplify things, for the casual, things which is however which is not allowed in tournament useage.
I'm almost 100% sure that grubby would never use this at any time, because he isn't allowed to use them at tournaments anyway.
This is like, WoW, with the addons, which is things you can have in mostly any game The problem a policy saying that it is okay to use it on ladder is that it will become widespread in small online tournaments (obviously not by the very top as the opportunity cost of learning something you can't use at LAN is higher than the expected profit gained by using macros) and to catch those macros will be a lot of work for the tournament admins to ensure the integrity of their competition. A general "no macros (2+ actions with 1 key press) are allowed and you get banned if you use them" policy by Blizzard would be lot stronger deterrent to not use them than the potential bust by admins of a online tournament.
The problem is, that Blizzard can't really enforce such a policy and a policy that is know not to be enforced is just an empty statement.
Neither am I good enough at SC2 nor do I have a macro keyboard/mouse myself to really judge how big the advantage actually is, but I can see that it is not about how fast it sends multiple commands to the game; it is that you save "attention time" if you automate actions with macros. After a few minutes you could do more useful actions in the game, than you can possibly do and having a macro do some of them for you, it frees up your attention.
On the other hand, I am a bit doubtful that SC2 is static enough to really give you an advantage by using those macros. Let's take the build units and a dropship example: It really seems very artificial to me, because you are not producing marines and marauders for a drop; you produce them anyways. Also you might not have the resources/supply to issue all the commands successfully...and then? Use another macro for the rest? As I said, maybe I am not good enough to actually get it, but for me it seems you would eitehr need too many alternative macros to make it work or adjust your game to the macos working (e.g. "I have to wait for x minerals and y gas before building anything, so my macro works"). All in all it seems more of a hassle really.
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I saw him beating koreans live at the koreans booths so what the fuck.
Everybody use "third party" (made by others) programs to help you improve your micro/macro.
Now you can do it ingame and blizzard is the owner, so even if its made by others it's still "First party"
So lol, he in Lan owned and everybody saw him winning thousands of tournaments without ever using anything.
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Should probably update in op that the video was removed by SS
was put on private atleast.
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On June 10 2011 16:57 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 16:35 TBO wrote:On June 10 2011 16:31 Cinim wrote:
This doesn't count as cheating, anything saying so, is stupid. Blizzard has in ALL of their games allowed software etc. to help simplify things, for the casual, things which is however which is not allowed in tournament useage.
I'm almost 100% sure that grubby would never use this at any time, because he isn't allowed to use them at tournaments anyway.
This is like, WoW, with the addons, which is things you can have in mostly any game The problem a policy saying that it is okay to use it on ladder is that it will become widespread in small online tournaments (obviously not by the very top as the opportunity cost of learning something you can't use at LAN is higher than the expected profit gained by using macros) and to catch those macros will be a lot of work for the tournament admins to ensure the integrity of their competition. A general "no macros (2+ actions with 1 key press) are allowed and you get banned if you use them" policy by Blizzard would be lot stronger deterrent to not use them than the potential bust by admins of a online tournament. The problem is, that Blizzard can't really enforce such a policy and a policy that is know not to be enforced is just an empty statement. Neither am I good enough at SC2 nor do I have a macro keyboard/mouse myself to really judge how big the advantage actually is, but I can see that it is not about how fast it sends multiple commands to the game; it is that you save "attention time" if you automate actions with macros. After a few minutes you could do more useful actions in the game, than you can possibly do and having a macro do some of them for you, it frees up your attention. On the other hand, I am a bit doubtful that SC2 is static enough to really give you an advantage by using those macros. Let's take the build units and a dropship example: It really seems very artificial to me, because you are not producing marines and marauders for a drop; you produce them anyways. Also you might not have the resources/supply to issue all the commands successfully...and then? Use another macro for the rest? As I said, maybe I am not good enough to actually get it, but for me it seems you would eitehr need too many alternative macros to make it work or adjust your game to the macos working (e.g. "I have to wait for x minerals and y gas before building anything, so my macro works"). All in all it seems more of a hassle really.
A lot of the stuff he showed were either really contrived or not that useful.
Anyway, I think it should be noted that MLG does not have any rules against macros.
They do have: 5. All Player equipment is subject to approval. To cover their asses however.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kiXUb.png)
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