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On June 10 2011 13:28 pbjsandwich wrote:
You guys say that it's my opinion that these small tournies don't matter but I stated why they don't matter
can you argue against that?
The small tournies get small time numbers
They're not going to effect the scene as much as the big tournies or big names
and is this thread criticism or unnecessary backlash for a mistake in marketing?
Well, but in total a lot more people are involved in small tournaments and league play than in big tournaments. So if you look at numbers, they actually do matter. And that even counts all the people who watch that big tournament. Do only the top-notch players deserve a fair competetive enviroment?
I, and i think a lot of other people, want a level playing field where we know that if we play against something, it is a battle of our skills, and not a battle of gear and software. I do not only want that for high-stakes tournaments, but also when i play a simple game on ladder.
Following your argument, all but the top leagues of any sports should also not care about people cheating, because it is not about the top competition for that sport. I don't think it is necessary to eleborate why that is a silly idea. And it is exactly as silly when you use it on Starcraft.
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Does anyone here actually use the keyboard?
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On June 10 2011 14:00 visioneye wrote:
Taken from Grubbys facebook page.
"It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course."
there ya have it.
Posted already, and no, there we have nothing.
That is a rubber statement. It COULD mean that blizzard told SS that using macros in SC2 is OK. But it could also mean that Blizzard told SS that nothing is inheretly wrong with that keyboard, which is true because a lot of other macro keyboards are used in SC2 too. It does not directly say that blizzard told them that using macros in the way they promote is something that blizzard condones.
I don't think anyone was argueing that Macrokeyboards per se are bad. People were argueing that using macros to have an unfair advantage in games is bad. Which can mostly be narrowed down to using macros that automate more than one action, which also seems to be the position blizzard took so far. I don't think they have made a full turnaround on that one, so my personal interpretation of that 2-3times hearsay piece of information is that probably the second way to read it is nearer to the truth then the first way.
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On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. 
On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is.
*Ahem*
"Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)."
~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal
": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)"
~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal
"• Prohibited by law.
• Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
• Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation"
~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal
Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules.
I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-'
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Blizzard has their own official macro starcraft keyboard available for sale too!! So obviously, they don't care about it. It's up to the tourney's to outlaw this if they are concerned.
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I don't get why so many people post without even reading the first few pages, and/or the last few pages of a thread. Especially with something totally unoriginal. Do you really think that that would not have been brought up already in a 40 pages thread?
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On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-'
The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition.
"Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc.
Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics.
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On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote:
How is using simple keyboard macros cheating?
To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here.
well grubby push something blizzard said is illegal, macros on keyboards user will get banned blizzard said several times
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In his defense, it can be used for the campaign.
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On June 10 2011 13:05 InvalidID wrote:
This thread should read "Blizzard implicitly promotes macro cheating."
Grubby is just doing his job as a sponsored e-sports competitor for a major esports company(Steelseries). Steelseries clearly made this product to compete with Razors officially sponsored products that have the same functionality. If Blizzard was truly being staunch with their prohibition of macroing, they would not allow their official Starcraft 2 keyboard to be a macro keyboard, even if such features are not allowed.
In order to solve this issue, Blizzard needs to switch to a new official keyboard that is not a macro keyboard. This is the only way they can be fair to the industry.
Why is everyone bringing this argument?
The "official SC2 Keyboard" has macros because most people play more than just SC2 and a lot of games allow macros, so if they wouldn't include macros it would end in less sales for them.
Every modern gaming keyboard and mouse has macros, it would be stupid to say "nah, because we have one of the few games that doesn't allow macros we cannot include the standard features".
You can use Macros as much as you want in Singleplayer, Counterstrike, Quake or whatever other non-multiplayer-RTS you play, but macros in SC2 multiplayer are simply forbidden and hopefully get those that use them banned.
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its perfectly legal in wow.
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On June 10 2011 14:33 mistax wrote:
its perfectly legal in wow.
No, it isn't. WoW has the exact same policy towards macro keyboards as SC2.
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On June 10 2011 14:22 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics.
Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules.
There's really no way to weasel your way out of it.
And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard.
"Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence."
~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm
Just diggin yourself a bigger hole 
But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night.
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That macro is so convoluted, I have a feeling it will do more harm that good lol
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I hope all the tumult raises awareness of product designers that the ESPORTS community doesn't want to have macro keyboards. Somehow they all come to the conclusion that SC2 players are in dire need of this fluff. It can't be conincidence that SteelSeries advertises this feature with Grubby, Razer advertises this feature with its flagship SC2 keyboard and Roccat advertises this with Take in Homestory Cup 2.
Dear gaming gear companies, if you really want to appeal to SC2/RTS players, make affordable awesome mechanical keyboards (and not only with MX blacks) that are plug'n'play. That's enough.
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On June 10 2011 14:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 14:22 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics. Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules. There's really no way to weasel your way out of it. And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard. "Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." ~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm Just diggin yourself a bigger hole But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night.
Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have.
if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field.
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On June 10 2011 15:02 SinCitta wrote:
I hope all the tumult raises awareness of product designers that the ESPORTS community doesn't want to have macro keyboards. Somehow they all come to the conclusion that SC2 players are in dire need of this fluff. It can't be conincidence that SteelSeries advertises this feature with Grubby, Razer advertises this feature with its flagship SC2 keyboard and Roccat advertises this with Take in Homestory Cup 2.
Dear gaming gear companies, if you really want to appeal to SC2/RTS players, make affordable awesome mechanical keyboards (and not only with MX blacks) that are plug'n'play. That's enough.
As i said above, about 99% of SC2 players don't play it exclusively and about 90% of those play games that allow macros, so a keyboard without macro functions won't be sold as much as one with that feature. Also, macro functionality actually doesn't cost that much in production if you consider that you can increase the price just by having the feature.
Of course it's still stupid to advertise this with SC2 pros, but that is another matter.
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On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 14:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 14:22 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics. Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules. There's really no way to weasel your way out of it. And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard. "Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." ~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm Just diggin yourself a bigger hole But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night. Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have. if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field.
http://www.justice.gov/dea/concern/steroids.html#1 no I'm sorry but steroids ARE illegal in the US. They are not just against contract in pro sports leagues, they are illegal.
Also as many have said about this subject, while keyboards capable of macros are perfectly fine with blizzard, using macros that simulate more than 1 key press on b.net is bannable.
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One key= 1 action.
Pretty dumb of steelseries to promote macros in a game in which it is forbidden. Dissapointed in grubby as well I must say.
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On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote:
Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have.
if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field.
lol im sorry but steroids aren't illegal in hong kong/china?!! wtf?!
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EPT
