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On June 10 2011 12:14 pbjsandwich wrote:
people need to get that
Ladder =/= competitive scene
Pros don't use ladder for productive practice. Why are you all acting like it's some kind of holy ground for competition?
GSL "code:B" is korean ladder top200.
top200 KOTH
all online tournaments are subject to the same macro scrutiny as a ladder game.
basically what you're saying is, because people won't be able to use complex macros for LAN tournaments, this has no bearing on a competitive scene?
you are the definition of idiocy
User was warned for this post
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yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth
This is what's getting me ITT
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How does it being ladder, and your characterization of that as non-competitive, have any bearing on the severity of abusing macros? Should a fairly casual masters (or any league for that matter) player have to play against someone abusing macros? Should they just suck it up and not care that they aren't on a level playing field?
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On June 10 2011 12:31 Angry_Fetus wrote:
How does it being ladder, and your characterization of that as non-competitive, have any bearing on the severity of abusing macros? Should a fairly casual masters (or any league for that matter) player have to play against someone abusing macros? Should they just suck it up and not care that they aren't on a level playing field?
Honestly? You won't even know they're using it unless they tell you.
Do you not agree that everyone ITT is vilifying 2 people that are helping esports?
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On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote:
yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth
This is what's getting me ITT
where do you think the winners of code b end up?
and how many people do you think are watching that?
you neglected to acknowledge all online tournaments being perfectly suited to some kind of macro abuse
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On June 10 2011 12:34 ceciljacobs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote:
yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth
This is what's getting me ITT where do you think the winners of code b end up? and how many people do you think are watching that? you neglected to acknowledge all online tournaments being perfectly suited to some kind of macro abuse
That's a hypothetical situation. We can argue hypothetical situations all day man. Actually you all have ITT
Macros have been around forever
if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard
it's up to the tourny admins to stop that
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On June 10 2011 12:11 ihavetofartosis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 11:10 Diks wrote:On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote:Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby"Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856"Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. This should definitely be added to the OP. Wrong "It is not illegal of course." Except it is. As stated in the Starcraft 2 Terms of Service, and by Blizzard employees: ![[image loading]](http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9687/macros.png)
I really don't see how people can support this when its completely illegal to bound +2 actions to 1 keystroke, yea you can use the keyboard and blizzard may support it but it does not support the macro feature. its cheating plain and simple
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how else can wc3 players macro?
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On June 10 2011 12:36 pbjsandwich wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:34 ceciljacobs wrote:On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote:
yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth
This is what's getting me ITT where do you think the winners of code b end up? and how many people do you think are watching that? you neglected to acknowledge all online tournaments being perfectly suited to some kind of macro abuse That's a hypothetical situation. We can argue hypothetical situations all day man. Actually you all have ITT Macros have been around forever if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard it's up to the tourny admins to stop that
and how is a $100 tournament admin going to stop macro abuse? seriously, answer that question.
the point isn't that macros should be removed from existence, it's that the direct promotion of macros by two prominent figures in the community is detrimental to competition. I don't see how you can argue around that.
p.s this whole thread is hypothetical. the idea is to explore hypotheticals before they occur so we can determine a path of action
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On June 10 2011 12:36 pbjsandwich wrote:
Macros have been around forever
if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard
Stop posting the same weak arguements. This has already been addressed mutliple times in this thread. Read:
On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard.
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On June 10 2011 12:41 ceciljacobs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:36 pbjsandwich wrote:On June 10 2011 12:34 ceciljacobs wrote:On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote:
yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth
This is what's getting me ITT where do you think the winners of code b end up? and how many people do you think are watching that? you neglected to acknowledge all online tournaments being perfectly suited to some kind of macro abuse That's a hypothetical situation. We can argue hypothetical situations all day man. Actually you all have ITT Macros have been around forever if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard it's up to the tourny admins to stop that and how is a $100 tournament admin going to stop macro abuse? seriously, answer that question. the point isn't that macros should be removed from existence, it's that the direct promotion of macros by two prominent figures in the community is detrimental to competition. I don't see how you can argue around that. p.s this whole thread is hypothetical. the idea is to explore hypotheticals before they occur so we can determine a path of action
too bad it's at the expense of a company that supports esports heavily and a player that has a lot of weight in the scene
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On June 10 2011 12:39 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
how else can wc3 players macro?
wc3 needs macro?
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On June 10 2011 12:46 Angry_Fetus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:36 pbjsandwich wrote:
Macros have been around forever
if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard Stop posting the same weak arguements. This has already been addressed mutliple times in this thread. Read: Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard.
let's not kid ourselves and think all of our arguments are perfect
Of course macro keyboards should not be used.
But is it really that big of an issue? This community loves to make a big stink of things at the expense of other people.
Saying "grubby promotes macro cheating" is fucking harsh and doesn't help anyone
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Can I use this keyboard for single player? I don't think I'd do very well with macros in ladder.
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On June 10 2011 12:49 Veritassong wrote:wc3 needs macro?
no hence cheating when playing starcraft to even the playing field
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On June 10 2011 12:38 haxard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:11 ihavetofartosis wrote:On June 10 2011 11:10 Diks wrote:On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote:Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby"Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856"Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. This should definitely be added to the OP. Wrong "It is not illegal of course." Except it is. As stated in the Starcraft 2 Terms of Service, and by Blizzard employees: I really don't see how people can support this when its completely illegal to bound +2 actions to 1 keystroke, yea you can use the keyboard and blizzard may support it but it does not support the macro feature. its cheating plain and simple
How would you feel if I built my own keyboard that physically has multiple switches under a single key?
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On June 10 2011 12:56 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:38 haxard wrote:On June 10 2011 12:11 ihavetofartosis wrote:On June 10 2011 11:10 Diks wrote:On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote:Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby"Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856"Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. This should definitely be added to the OP. Wrong "It is not illegal of course." Except it is. As stated in the Starcraft 2 Terms of Service, and by Blizzard employees: I really don't see how people can support this when its completely illegal to bound +2 actions to 1 keystroke, yea you can use the keyboard and blizzard may support it but it does not support the macro feature. its cheating plain and simple How would you feel if I built my own keyboard that physically has multiple switches under a single key?
How is this absurd hypothetical at all relevant? Stop trolling.
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it seems like there is this weird thing going on where blizzard is saying that macro keyboards arent illegal or rather, are allowed. but using the macros that the keyboard is capable of using is however illegal or rather, a bannable offense and people are getting really confused by this and thinking that because blizzard allows macro keyboards they are promoting the use of the macros. What seems like a possible story is steelseries contacted blizzard said, hey we have these macro keyboards are they allowed to be used with sc2? blizzard then said ya macro keyboards are allowed to be used in sc2. steelseries then took that as them saying macro keys are allowed to be used while playing sc2, thus the confusion.
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On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote:
yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth
This is what's getting me ITT
I understand you're angry but the "those aren't real tournaments" argument is just a diversion. It's just promoting double standards/double rules.
And just because they are glorified figures in e-sports doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye. Let people speak. By spewing silly arguments in defense you are just making them side more heavily against Grubby and steelseries.
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This thread should read "Blizzard implicitly promotes macro cheating."
Grubby is just doing his job as a sponsored e-sports competitor for a major esports company(Steelseries). Steelseries clearly made this product to compete with Razors officially sponsored products that have the same functionality. If Blizzard was truly being staunch with their prohibition of macroing, they would not allow their official Starcraft 2 keyboard to be a macro keyboard, even if such features are not allowed.
In order to solve this issue, Blizzard needs to switch to a new official keyboard that is not a macro keyboard. This is the only way they can be fair to the industry.
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EPT
