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On November 23 2010 18:07 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 17:59 MavercK wrote:On November 23 2010 17:58 klauz619 wrote:On November 23 2010 17:56 MavercK wrote:
i think this trend is disgusting. it makes me not even want to watch the GSL
Terrans seem to be even doing this against Protoss.
it's like Terran forgot how to expand or considers late game impossible to win.
none of these openings setup for an expansion. or atleast as IdrA put it. they only expand if you over commit to defending it.
so far. even tho it's only the 2nd day and it's the ro64. the games i've watched have been the worst games since beta. just marines marines. pull all scvs. it's ok i've got mules. more marines. all in. win or lose gg. next game.
i wish i had something more profound to say but i just feel sick in the stomach every game. You don't seem to mind when zerg wins 90% of the time just spamming mutas and banelings if terran doesn't all in. that wasn't a very interesting dynamic either. but atleast it was midgame and already multiple bases. Funny how it's fair if Terran loses badly in the midgame, but unfair and in need of fixing when Terran dominates in the early game. Don't expect Terran players (myself included) to not be highly aggressive early game. The current mid and late game dynamic just doesn't favor Terran so we have to compensate for that in the early game. Not doing that just so 'that there is a midgame' means 90% of the ZvT and PvT games would be incredibly one-sided. You play to win, not to cater to the opponent. As for 14 hatch, it's an FE/Economic opening. Regardless of race or even matchup, economic opening vs early aggression is always very risky. The simple response is not to go 14 hatch and go something like 20 hatch instead.
i wish people would stop reading my post as if i was saying the game is broken and terran should be nerfed and that i'm perfectly fine with TvZ mid game. stop assuming or reading between the lines because your wrong.
fact is my thoughts are simple. Terrans are just doing this boring 1 base all ins with marines and scvs. every. god damn. game. in the GSL so far. thats all im saying and how disgusting it is to watch.
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On November 23 2010 18:08 StarcraftMan wrote:
Zerg gets to roaches = GG for Terran
Zerg gets to mid game = GG for Terran
It's sad that Terran has to gamble everything at the beginning to prevent Zerg from getting to roaches or mid-game. Blizzard really needs to do some tweaking because these Terran strats are simply gimmicks to avoid an inevtiable mid-game to late-game loss to Zerg.
Do you really think that shitposting will convince blizzard to buff terran? Plenty of Terrans know how to macro and do well mid/late game. The idea that they cant was a theory created by idiots who have no idea how to play, people like you. The fact you think roaches are GG for terran confirms it.
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there hasnt been many large foreign tournaments to my knowledge since this 2 racks marine scv pressure became popular.
do you guys think we will see terrans using this type of play @ dreamhack?
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1) its not played for that long,so give some good Z time to find a way around it.
2) im pretty sure you can defend it on most maps (14 hatch on steppes anyone?) with proper scouting and the right reaction (imo banes).
3) i think its a great strategical way for terran to open since it allows for expansion,early pressure and possible all in if Z gets to greedy. and i think,since Z macro and map control is really strong even in the early mid game,thats what T needs.
4) Its not like terran can expand,pressure and tech up at the sime time.
5) I think with roaches you could probably defend and even counterpush the terran to death since the marines have no shield/stim
just my 2 cents.
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Unfortunately, I think a lot of the complaints about this build, are oriented around it just not being entertaining to watch. I realize this tournament has a lot of money on the line, so playing to win is the priority, but this is *supposed* to be a spectator sport, and watching 7 minute games that can easily go either way do not allow for players to showcase much of their skill, nor are they entertaining for the viewer.
Unfortunately, unless the metagame changes drastically mid-season, I think this is what we have to expect from the rest of the GSL.
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On November 23 2010 18:16 lim1017 wrote:
there hasnt been many large foreign tournaments to my knowledge since this 2 racks marine scv pressure became popular.
do you guys think we will see terrans using this type of play @ dreamhack? The really important point in all of this is that it creates a nearly unstoppable amount of pressure for the Zerg to deal with. If foreigners have seen this build (I'm sure they have), they will almost certainly be practicing it against a 14 hatch. When there is money on the line, it is hard to blame players for using really abusive builds. It's like Morrow pulling the 6rax reaper on idrA at IEM. It's mean and abusive but it wins you games.
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I have a hard time believing that zerg has to go 14 hatch every game on every map to have a chance to win. Is it really the case that not 14 hatching puts you behind? The way it stands it just looks like Zerg is thinking to themselves that they can do it safely because Terran has not extremely early cheese anymore.
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Since we are on the "we should have gentlemen agreements in SCII", I will agree to give up my 2 rax push if zergs I play agree to wait for my army to reach equal food count after every late game battle. I think you'll find you have a lot of waiting to do.
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well the push comes around the 5 minute mark. find a way to feel safe vs a marine scv push at 5 minutes and you are good. (for instance at 5 minutes my lair finishes in my standard build), i could use this + a fast baneling nest to start getting burrow or baneling speed to be able to defend the push at 5 minutes and then prevent take the reigns a couple minutes after. also i could get an overseer (or 2) as a response to the 2 rax. and if they push out with scvs go goop their command center, crippling their economy, even with mules.
you just have to think of ways to do things with what you have.
EDIT: to the poster above me, you shoudl stop losing late game battles that badly then 
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So... why can't Zerg just defend the same way they did in BW, and then pump the hell out of drones from behind a few queens and spine crawlers?
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On November 23 2010 18:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
well the push comes around the 5 minute mark. find a way to feel safe vs a marine scv push at 5 minutes and you are good. (for instance at 5 minutes my lair finishes in my standard build), i could use this + a fast baneling nest to start getting burrow or baneling speed to be able to defend the push at 5 minutes and then prevent take the reigns a couple minutes after. also i could get an overseer (or 2) as a response to the 2 rax. and if they push out with scvs go goop their command center, crippling their economy, even with mules.
you just have to think of ways to do things with what you have.
Lair finishing at 5 minutes should not be standard in any matchup. Even if the Terran hits you with a standard 3Rax+stim push or a Protoss player hits you with a 4gate... there's absolutely no way to defend a 5min Lair and still have a healthy economy for the midgame.
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Ok, do you guys really think that out of the blue every top korean Terran just decided that they'd start doing marine/scv all-in variations because it's the "standard thing to do?"
Does anyone remember beta waaaaaaaaay back when? Zerg was the strongest race for a reason in korea. It wasn't because lings were too powerful (ok 1 supply roach but ignore that), it wasn't because they had a magical unit composition that beat everything else...it was because every good Zerg knew that IF they could defend to a certain point in the game, they could power drone 20+ workers ahead of their opponent, stack up larva, suicide their army -> remax -> and basically never lose a macro game late game.
I do not understand how the majority of people here can look so one dimensionally at all of these TvZ games and say, "oh yeah, they're just punishing greedy Zergs that are 14 hatching" or "they just want to win the game fast."
It's more of an underlying problem that all of these pros understand - playing Zerg in a macro game past the 10 minute mark or so is damn tough (if not impossible). As Zerg the goal is always to defend until you are into the macro game, it's very, very difficult to lose ZvT once you reach that point.
So this isn't a necessarily "new trend" at all - it's been in the works since the most recent patch, and finally you're starting to see every top T doing their best to usurp the TvZ lategame difficulties by simply all-inning, semi-allining, or feint-all-ining to gain an advantage or win the game outright.
It really pains me when people are even bashing intotherainbow saying he played terrible, etc etc. or "why the fuck would he do these 'gimmicky' 'all-in' builds." He's doing them because they are right now the best possible shot at winning TvZ series.
Go back over every GSL game and top level TvZ game, as well as other top TvZ games. Do you notice the trend? Terrans usually win around the 10-15 min point (or earlier), or have gained some advantage from an all-in or banshee shinanigans.
Sure, every now and then you see someone play a "macro game" vs zerg, like Nada did, but most of the times Terran has lost those. And the times you do see a TvZ go into a "macro game" the Terran absolutely did something to gain a huge advantage early to be even attempting a management game.
So yeh...what did people really expect Terrans to do? Roll over and die? These mass marine all-ins and variations are the best possible ways to beat Zerg now. Mech is dead because it gives zerg a free 3rd/4th and then they just mass roach/infestor neural you.
This marine stuff is the last stuff possible to take games off of good Zs =/
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I agree that these matches are pretty boring to watch. Almost all you see is Zerg going 14 hatch, then Terran countering with a 2 rax all in. It either works or doesn't, match over in 5 mins.
This build is just Terran's response to Zerg going 14 hatch most games. I don't know why people are surprised there's a decent counter to going hatch before pool, considering economy opens vs all in aggression usually doesn't turn out well for economy.
Though I can admit, it is hard to hold off considering terrans can throw away SCVs and use mules where if a Zerg pulls drones he's blocking his lings and destroying his economy.
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On November 23 2010 18:16 Caryc wrote:
1) its not played for that long,so give some good Z time to find a way around it.
2) im pretty sure you can defend it on most maps (14 hatch on steppes anyone?) with proper scouting and the right reaction (imo banes).
3) i think its a great strategical way for terran to open since it allows for expansion,early pressure and possible all in if Z gets to greedy. and i think,since Z macro and map control is really strong even in the early mid game,thats what T needs.
4) Its not like terran can expand,pressure and tech up at the sime time.
5) I think with roaches you could probably defend and even counterpush the terran to death since the marines have no shield/stim
just my 2 cents.
I don't think you get the problem. The problem isn't even stopping it. It is probably very possible to stop it and be ahead if they marine/svc all in and you went some combination of speedling/baneling/roach. The problem is that terran can easily scan a zergs base to get a good idea of drone saturatoin/ tech and decide from there what to do. If they see a zerg has good defenses they have damaged the zerg economically by throwing down a second barracks early in the game.
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On November 23 2010 18:28 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 18:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
well the push comes around the 5 minute mark. find a way to feel safe vs a marine scv push at 5 minutes and you are good. (for instance at 5 minutes my lair finishes in my standard build), i could use this + a fast baneling nest to start getting burrow or baneling speed to be able to defend the push at 5 minutes and then prevent take the reigns a couple minutes after. also i could get an overseer (or 2) as a response to the 2 rax. and if they push out with scvs go goop their command center, crippling their economy, even with mules.
you just have to think of ways to do things with what you have. Lair finishing at 5 minutes should not be standard in any matchup. Even if the Terran hits you with a standard 3Rax+stim push or a Protoss player hits you with a 4gate... there's absolutely no way to defend a 5min Lair and still have a healthy economy for the midgame.
heh. i go 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool. i get lair as soon as pool finishes. whether i do anything with the lair (besides an overseer/overlord speed for fast scouting when most zergs are in the dark) is up to me. the difference between my going fast lair and you going fast speed + queen is that i spend 300/100 on a queen + lair and you spend 250/100 on queen and ling speed. and then i get ling speed either while the lair is building or i get infestors around the 6 minute mark when a more standard attack timing exists vs Terran.
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On November 23 2010 18:26 PrinceXizor wrote:EDIT: to the poster above me, you shoudl stop losing late game battles that badly then
Problem isn't the first 200/200 battle, it's every encounter after that when zerg manages to recover just a bit faster until he's in my base while I'm still not on a strong enough army or destroying my expos while I'm not even close to a decent sized defense; I'm just forced to defend hoping he screws up badly.
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On November 23 2010 18:29 avilo wrote:
Ok, do you guys really think that out of the blue every top korean Terran just decided that they'd start doing marine/scv all-in variations because it's the "standard thing to do?"
Does anyone remember beta waaaaaaaaay back when? Zerg was the strongest race for a reason in korea. It wasn't because lings were too powerful (ok 1 supply roach but ignore that), it wasn't because they had a magical unit composition that beat everything else...it was because every good Zerg knew that IF they could defend to a certain point in the game, they could power drone 20+ workers ahead of their opponent, stack up larva, suicide their army -> remax -> and basically never lose a macro game late game.
I do not understand how the majority of people here can look so one dimensionally at all of these TvZ games and say, "oh yeah, they're just punishing greedy Zergs that are 14 hatching" or "they just want to win the game fast."
It's more of an underlying problem that all of these pros understand - playing Zerg in a macro game past the 10 minute mark or so is damn tough (if not impossible). As Zerg the goal is always to defend until you are into the macro game, it's very, very difficult to lose ZvT once you reach that point.
So this isn't a necessarily "new trend" at all - it's been in the works since the most recent patch, and finally you're starting to see every top T doing their best to usurp the TvZ lategame difficulties by simply all-inning, semi-allining, or feint-all-ining to gain an advantage or win the game outright.
It really pains me when people are even bashing intotherainbow saying he played terrible, etc etc. or "why the fuck would he do these 'gimmicky' 'all-in' builds." He's doing them because they are right now the best possible shot at winning TvZ series.
Go back over every GSL game and top level TvZ game, as well as other top TvZ games. Do you notice the trend? Terrans usually win around the 10-15 min point (or earlier), or have gained some advantage from an all-in or banshee shinanigans.
Sure, every now and then you see someone play a "macro game" vs zerg, like Nada did, but most of the times Terran has lost those. And the times you do see a TvZ go into a "macro game" the Terran absolutely did something to gain a huge advantage early to be even attempting a management game.
So yeh...what did people really expect Terrans to do? Roll over and die? These mass marine all-ins and variations are the best possible ways to beat Zerg now. Mech is dead because it gives zerg a free 3rd/4th and then they just mass roach/infestor neural you.
This marine stuff is the last stuff possible to take games off of good Zs =/ I agree that Zerg has the possibility to be a macro monster but I really think you have no grounds by which to say a Terran player can't take a Zerg player in the mid game.
Tank pushes and MMM Balls didn't suddenly become unusable against a 4range Roach... if you watch any games from the last GSL, Terrans were taking games off of Zergs left and right with standard play. hence 3 Terran, 1 Zerg in the Semi Finals.
However, to say the Zerg has become so OP in the mid game that Terran has no choice but to crush them with cheese is absolutely ridiculous. Strong Banshee (or any of Terrans available harassing openers) play with proper reactions to Zerg tech can build an army into the mid game that will crush a Zerg player.
I want to end this post by saying I hate theorycrafting and just throwing builds at eachother and being like "YEAH WELL THIS BUILD BEATS THAT BUILD BUT THIS BUILD SUCKS". It gets the argument nowhere because every player likes to believe that their race is being shat on. I get that. But when a Terran opener can crush almost any Zerg opener (as we've seen COUNTLESS evidence of in the GSL), it's hard for me to take you seriously when you tell me that Zerg is still the problem.
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On November 23 2010 18:29 avilo wrote:
So yeh...what did people really expect Terrans to do? Roll over and die? These mass marine all-ins and variations are the best possible ways to beat Zerg now. Mech is dead because it gives zerg a free 3rd/4th and then they just mass roach/infestor neural you.
This marine stuff is the last stuff possible to take games off of good Zs =/
The opinion of anyone who bashes the players for their choice of strategy or winning using cheese can be ignored. In a tournament with this much money every player should do whatever it takes to win. There is no honor in losing by playing macro game.
The balance of the game is what is being discussed. If the balance of the game relies on terrans only chance being gimmicks that are successful then there is a problem. If late game terran can't win against late game zerg then there is a problem. If the standard strategy for terran is to end the game with 2-4 rax and a shitload of scv then there is a problem. This thread is to discuss the new trends in zvt and how they are trending towards boring bad games.
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On November 23 2010 18:34 dakalro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 18:26 PrinceXizor wrote:EDIT: to the poster above me, you shoudl stop losing late game battles that badly then Problem isn't the first 200/200 battle, it's every encounter after that when zerg manages to recover just a bit faster until he's in my base while I'm still not on a strong enough army or destroying my expos while I'm not even close to a decent sized defense; I'm just forced to defend hoping he screws up badly.
A Properly upgraded, maintained, and positioned terran army will always come out ahead in food if playing vs a zerg. unless brood lords in numbers of 10 or more exist. but thats more due to how the game works. zerg can wear down on terran enough to cause issues, terran only can't hold them off if they didn't expand enough.
EDIT: i'm allowed my opinion ^^
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I think Terrans need to take note of the second game of Jys vs. ZergBong. Very unorthodox way to play, but actually pretty decent. I also like the idea of having Planetary Fortresses to create an artificial choke of a death wall, yes they are expensive as hell. But one is hard enough to break, imagine 2 or 3. You'd need Broodlords. Which get rocked hard by vikings. He also got some of the less frequently gotten upgrades, like Missile Turret and Planetary Fortress range.
Edit: Third game, on Shakuras.
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EPT
