EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXXV - Page 36
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
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zebezt
185 Posts
I'm aware I have not made any big contributions scum hunting lately. Tonight I'm planning to do some scumhunting and post my findings. Most likely not gonna waste too much time defending myself tonight. I feel I answered most of the questions. I don't think there is anything particulary scummy about my filter. I might have done better posting scumreads. I will try to do that tonight. Some questions before i go: @Spaghetticus: You were the most active player during your last game. You seem to post significantly less now. Why the change of playstyle? @Mocsta: I was thinking about what you said earlier (3) I was RB'd.. its not clear whether town or scum.. but as noone else has stepped up to say they were RB'd. I am going to assume for the time being it was scum. Why would you go out of your way to make yourself seem town'ish with such a terrible reason? I think only scum would try to do that. The fact that you CLAIM to be RB'ed is no confirmation in any way that you are town. There might not even be a roleblocker at all in this game. | ||
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
Exhibit A On January 13 2013 07:45 Trotske wrote: 1. Yea I think it is very easy to intimidate people into thinking they shouldn't post because they might get fingers pointed at them for doing something like starting the conversation that needed to get started anyway or defending someone who they claim is scummy. I think it makes a bad town mindset for getting as much information about everyone was we can if townies are not as eager to post. 2. I think it hurts town so I don't think it is normal if town wants to win but I don't have alot of experience and have pretty much just read some guides. Oh and to your first point I would say fluff posts are just as bad as not posting at all because it just distracts from the real posts that people need to read and I havn't seen bringaniga post anything that wasn't as waste of my time to read. Emphasis mine. Yes, we want people to post but we should also call them out whenever they post something scummy and/or useless, because that is the basis of scumhunting. If we never attack anyone, then we're all just a bunch of carebears waiting around for the mafia to assassinate us all. This post alone from Trotske is not enough for a scum read, but it makes me suspicious. The last sentence especially. You think posting fluff is just as bad as not posting? Good, show us your content. What content, you ask? Yes, my point exactly. Exhibit B On January 14 2013 04:55 Trotske wrote: First I'm going to respond to Mandalor and his read about me. I feel that my posts are pretty good when it comes to Quality and I don't care about Quantity because I feel that if I post fluff it is useless and posting just so people won't try to lynch me is not pro town. I felt the I didn't have anything to contribute earlier and then went to bed before like 4 pages of posts came up I Emphasis mine. Talk about low standards. Prior to this post you had done no scumhunting, had posted no analysis of any kind - in fact the only posting you had done was defending Mocsta against Sn0_Man and complaining about bringaniga's style of posting. I feel this is a good place to remind everyone that Mandalor was the first person to attack Trotske on his low-quality posting. I feel that lynching anyone day1 that is active is a waste because the more they talk the more likely there will be a scum slip. The person I want to lynch as of right now is Sn0_man. Sn0_man made a bad environment at the start of the game by attacking players instead of answering questions polity and then hasn't posted in the last 36 hours? Not only is that lurking that also scummy and then not active make him the most useless player in the game only hurting town the leaving. ##Vote Sn0_Man This may change if he posts more before the deadline. Answering questions politely is not scumhunting. While your case on Sn0_Man isn't completely baseless, it's also very thin and since you seem hellbent on hanging a lurker, well there were other lurkers to look at. What I get from this is that you don't care who you lynch, so you pick an easy target: given how he attacked Mocsta, who still had a lot of town cred at the time, no one would be rushing to defend Sn0_Man. He was also not there to defend himself. I don't have much of a read on a lot of other people but If bringaniga doesn't shape up his game I want to lynch him or one of the other full time professional lurkers aka Acid or glurio. I would like to wait to go after the more active players until we can build stronger cases on them. I am honestly having a hard time deciding who looks scummy I plan on going in depth on the people who have posted more in the next few hours Translation from scum to English: "It's so hard to pick which of these townies to falsely accuse, maybe I'll just wait and see if my Sn0 vote gets any traction, if not I'll just pick an easier target." You also conveniently forget to mention laguerta, the worst of them all, in your "professional lurkers" list. Exhibit C On January 14 2013 06:16 Trotske wrote: for some reason I Thought there were more votes on laguerta bringaniga lets assume you are not going to get modkilled please tell me why you like laguerta more than sn0_man. On January 14 2013 08:55 Trotske wrote: @Acid How is Zebezt a better lynch than sn0_man. Also your post + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2013 08:34 Acid~ wrote: There were no questions that were "put to me", you just asked me to post and I did. So, now I have to "earn" town cred before I'm allowed to play? Oh please, pretty please, can I play with you Mr mayor? I find this attitude pretty fucking hypocritical coming from a guy who attacked someone else earlier supposedly because they were intimidating others into not participating. This shit you're trying to pull right there, not only is it exactly the kind of behavior you attacked in others, it's also textbook ad-hominem. So, please, with sugar on top, answer the fucking question. Maybe you'll manage to post your first line of useful content. seemed to be aimed at getting people emotional near the lynch deadline and you need to stop it now because that won't help people make informed lynch decisions. that post was 100% pointless unless you want to get people emotional. On January 14 2013 09:48 Trotske wrote: I think this post is of a really really bad town player who thinks he needs to defend himself with votes on other people and I think that Mandalor is trying to kill a bad townie. So for that and the post Macosta made stating the reasons for lynching him I am going to change my vote. ##Unvote ##Vote Mandalor Emphasis mine again in the quotes, to demonstrate my previous claim. The vote on Sn0 gets no traction, so again he sheeps Mocsta. This is like Christmas for scum because he can safely attack Mandalor (who, let me remind you, had posted his own suspicions about Trotske) by piggybacking on Mocsta's case without having to do any work. Exhibit D On January 14 2013 10:36 Trotske wrote: I don't think laguerta is scum you guys are pushing a lynch claiming scum when he looks a lot more like a bad townie with no experience and is lazy. what is with this bandwagon on someone who might as well be a lurker In fact a lurker would be a better lynch. I am going to keep my vote on the person who started this ridiculous vote. What is with this 180 now? You are now openly and directly attacking a player for wanting to lynch a lurker. Even though you had spent the whole of day1 arguing in favor of lynching a lurker. Suddenly, this lurker is not good enough for some reason? Exhibit E On January 15 2013 09:59 Trotske wrote: FoS on Spaghetticus I would like some other opinions on him, I feel that most of his posts so far have been only restating that he doesn't like lurkers Literally half of his posts have had some comment about lurkers. His posts seem to me to be saying nothing while looking very large at the same time. FoS on zebezt Mocasta and Oats had made some good points and after going back and looking at his filter I find it highly suspicious that he hasn't added anything of his own to the game so far and has been posting as if to make it look like he is active while not actually contributing anything. I would love for some other opinions on these players. Thanks. You FoS these players because they: 1. Are too insistent on wanting to lynch lurkers. 2. Post no useful content. If those are your criteria, I think you should start fingering yourself. Additionally, the insistence on wanting other players' opinions before you actually turn those fingers into votes reads to me like you don't want to pressure and you definitely don't want to commit to a lynch before you're sure you can get traction to kill another innocent. Closing argument At this point, I still have to review Zebezt's case with a fresh look, so I'm not taking my vote off him and onto Trotske just yet. However, Trotske seems scummy as hell to me and I want his case to be discussed. | ||
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
I want to hear your own inputs and interpretations, if I wanted sheep I'd relocate to Wales. | ||
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Acid~
Thailand442 Posts
Specifically, If you could honor your previous engagement to post constructive cases founded in rational argument, that'd be great. Give us some meat, some quotes, something tangible to work with. Regardless of who you choose, I want to see you commit to a read and a vote a long ass-fucking time - pardon my French - before the vote deadline, please. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
On January 16 2013 17:45 zebezt wrote: @Spaghetticus: You were the most active player during your last game. You seem to post significantly less now. Why the change of playstyle? [b]. @Zebest Several reasons. Firstly, my prolific post-count has been getting me ignored. I often find when suspicion is placed upon me, I am unable to defend myself because even though my words are logical, there have been far too many of them and people become desensitized and unable to differentiate the important from the unimportant. I have made a meta-decision to remain in the top posters of content, but to take the post-count back a notch. Secondly, I am having difficulty getting a feel this game. Usually I have two more days to wrap my head around who people are and how they act. The content of this game is low for a lot of players and I'm finding it difficult to tell the lurkers apart. Thirdly, a lot of people are asking for reads on me, but don't seem interested in asking me questions. While I understand that both: a) you are asking me a question now and b) good town should not need to be prompted into action The interaction component is not there, and this slows my input. Fourthly, real world problems. I am having massive oversleeping issue (sleeping 12 hours a day uninterrupted), and spend two hours at the gym almost everyday (though not today). I have less time in the day than I normally would, and so the number of posts goes down. + Show Spoiler + I realise that I totally overdid my answer, it was a pretty minimalist question | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
Well done, I will now read your case  | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I couldnt put as much time as i wanted into the game today. Promotion and all.. I am home in 5hrs. Fyi my filter trawling has resulted in a find. Its controversial though so need to reconfirm. When i get back i will address zebezt question. I think he is overreading things massively. I will also go through your trotske case. From a first read . Some of the points are very suspicious indeed | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
(in bullet points) (1) - I think Trotske's attempt to hinder overt aggression comes off as town. In a game where everyone is experienced would say the opposite, but a big part of getting reads is allowing people to speak, and the aggro was preventing this as a result of people not being used to it. (2) - His quality and quantity is not up to scratch, and his attacks on other people for their low quality/quantity, is hypocritical, but not scummy. If you take away a lurker's ability to call out other lurkers, you are basically limiting their options for input. This is not good if you want lurkers to step up. (3) - His case on Sn0 is bullshit from a current perspective, but may not have been terrible fro the time he posted. I don't really want to backtrack that hard into the thread but I will if Trotske's lynch develops, in which case I will need to know where I stand. (4) - his indecision is scummy in an experienced game, but is also normal for a lot of newbies. I think we should pressure him to make real decisions so he can't backflip, but shouldn't read too much into it unless he continues. (5) - in regard to his FoS on me. I can only think that he has some idea of my meta, and that I did not meet those expectations. He was right in that I over-reacted, as it was only a FoS. I think instead of a FoS he should have pointed out my single-mindedness and asked me to contribute in a way he can appreciate, but w/e. I understand that if you don't value lurkerbeating, then my contributions would look pretty small. Other than the five point above I am pretty much in full agreement with your case. Good work. I was already fairly convinced just from his general lack of output (LAL). He's already on my 'dar, and he's already under pressure. I don't think I will vote to lynch him just yet, as with him already pressured, it's my job to pull the next lurker up by the ears, and I'll need my vote threat to do that. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
Shz Zebezt Trotske Zarepath Presence on this list does not mean I have looked into your happenings, it just means I have not eliminated you from my possible lynches yet. If everyone on this list proves themselves then I will draw up a new, more inclusive list. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
@Trostske I sincerely apologise for reacting to your FoS on me the way I did. Please do not let this discourage you from posting as much as you can. I was wrong to do this, I misread the FoS as something more than it was meant to be. @Zebezt I appreciate the etiquette, but you need to drop the kiddie gloves and come out swinging bare knuckle. While shit slinging can be detrimental if it outlives it's usefulness, being too nice makes everyone think you are manipulative. Most people have ingrained heuristics to target nice people, and for a very good reason. In XXXIII I was the nice guy who just wanted town to get along and work together. I was lynched day one, and have since reverted to the asshole internet persona you see before you. I regret that being nice seems to hurt town, but if you wanna play mafia you just need to accept it and move on. The both of you need to take some hard positions that town can work with in order to read you. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
You are both equal in my eyes, but Trotske is already coming under fire, so I thought I would exert pressure on you instead. The onus is now on you to improve your play beyond Trotske's, and preferably beyond that of Shz and Zare. I am hoping that some action happens soon. I have difficulty keeping track of the different times and not, but I believe the lynch is in Approx 12 hours? This will likely mean more abusive sleeping patterns for me, but I will attempt to be awake three hours prior to the deadline to try and control the lynch. I suggest you all do the same if possible. | ||
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zebezt
185 Posts
On January 16 2013 21:01 Spaghetticus wrote: I appreciate the etiquette, but you need to drop the kiddie gloves and come out swinging bare knuckle. While shit slinging can be detrimental if it outlives it's usefulness, being too nice makes everyone think you are manipulative. Most people have ingrained heuristics to target nice people, and for a very good reason. In XXXIII I was the nice guy who just wanted town to get along and work together. I was lynched day one, and have since reverted to the asshole internet persona you see before you. I regret that being nice seems to hurt town, but if you wanna play mafia you just need to accept it and move on. Thanks for the tips  I'll try to keep your advice in mind. It doesn't match well with my normal character, but I guess if I wanna play this game to win, I will have to adapt. I find it hard to attack people on subjective things like how much somebody contributed. I will see if I can come up with something tonight though. I will have to figure out who to vote for anyway. Right now I really don't have a clue. anyway, taking your advice to heart:  | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
1) - Have a vote on someone and a reason why. If you sheep (sheep:// verb meaning to follow someone else's reasoning without contributing, not a spell of polymorph  ) your vote will not count as contribution or taking a hard stance. It is the way of scum to not take hard positions on things, and sheeping is really the absence of a position.2) - Evaluate the cases against other people who's heads are on the block. You are not looking to simply vote anyone but you, you are trying to establish yourself as town, as well as land a scum lynch. If you manage to survive today but have not contributed any real thought, your head will be on the block tomorrow and we will have to repeat. Having to spend time on hunting lazy town hurts only town. Your number one priority is to establish your innocence, and this is achieved by hunting scum and contributing thoughts. I would go through your filter and force you to contribute by asking you specific questions, but this would effectively kill Troske. Other than you being likable, I currently have no reason to value you over Troske and so I offer only general tips that apply to you both. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I claimed the RB, because it is standard practice and I thought the information would be useful for town. Because nobody else claimed an RB, I admit there was no gain in the end, but I still think it was worthwhile. Either way, I never gave out this information to claim or insinuate I was town. Hence, this is why I think you are over-reading this reference. @Acid~ Here is my breakdown of your case on Trotske http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391615¤tpage=36#704 Exhibit A Disagree. However, I attribute this to differenting mentalities, different methodologies and different philosphies. Even though your posts are limited in count, the candour duly expressed clearly demonstrates why you would be biased against this opinion. In that regard, you are akin to Oatsmaster. I treat the post you referenced as null. Town OR Scum can seek fingers to not be pointed at them. *As an aside: I was in entrenched in words with Oatsmaster not because he pointed fingers, but because his tone and wording was so vicious and taken out of context. There are many ways to intimidate, and his primary method was to be a bully. I disagree with that in general. If you wouldn't talk like that at work, or at home; why do it on a FACELESS forum.* Exhibit B Agree. I do not see an abundance of quality posts in Trotske filter. However, I cant hold it against Trotske he is confused about a scum read. There was a lot of confusion Day1; I believe at one stage at least 5 people out of 13 had a vote against their name. That is NOT normal. Read: Leaning towards scum. Exhibit C Agree. I didn't see the pattern before from this perspective. It doesn't help he spells my name as Macosta.. so I am naturally biased to this Read: Scum Exhibit D On the fence. But this is due to my case that I am about to start writing.. I think the saying "He who is not sinned, throws the first stone" may (or may not) apply here. Read: Null Exhibit E Agree. This is not the definition of a quality post that Trotske himself promised to deliver. It is essentially looking to contribute, without meaningfully contributing. Read: Scum Conclusion I think out of 5 points, 3 are definitely scummy in nature. There is potential here. However..... I think I have identified *1* of the mafia.. and by [forced] association the 2nd. Your evidence on Trotske suggests we may have the 3rd. I do not want to build association cases (even though I just brought it up), its too risky; however, if my 2nd mafia does not get traction tonight [this will make sense when the case is released], I am willing to put serious consideration into Trotske. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
(Mocsta) Random Musings - Day 2 Overall I am pretty disapointed with the amount of discussion day 2. I am noticing there isnt that much discourse anymore, and people are only responding if they are addressed a direct question - sometimes the replys come in super fast meaning these people are actively following the thread, but choosing not to input to the thread! In my opinion this allows mafia to blend in by not having to input unless asked. Not a good thing to occur. Though I am trying to take a step back from leading discussion, I still believe we need to constructively critique everyones cases and logic. This just is not happening currently. (At least scum hunting in general has picked up though) Having said that, I want to congratulate a few of the lurkers for stepping up today. Acid, your post count is beginning to snowball.. you may even reach a 2nd page . I want to thank you for showing the courage to ask others to critique your thoughts.. you are one of the few doing this. I think this is essential moving forward. I hope you appreciate my perspective on your findings. Overall, I think its solid. Not 10/10, but close.& Sn0_Man, in 24 hr, you managed to turn my read on you from scummyish/null to strong town. This is not a small feat to accomplish. I still want to see more from you, but, the approach you took today really screams town to me. Not sure if this was due to coach feedback, but well done regardless. | ||
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Spaghetticus
Australia451 Posts
I know you love to build suspense, but could you please release some details of who you are planning a case on? It's more time efficient for me since I'm about to hit the sack, I can stop doing sweet fuck all now and start evaluating their input without your influence. I'll have a good idea of where my thoughts lie, and can read your case in the morning. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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zarepath
United States1626 Posts
I am reviewing Trotske, Acid, zebezt, and Shz right now and the various cases from/against each of them. | ||
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