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Actually on second thought, more detailed reads will have to wait until later in the day.
Until then, notes:
Firm null on Prome - VE's points about the 'conversation starter' similarities to LX ring true with me, though he appears to have more of an actual direction this game. There was stuff about his earlier content I both liked and disliked, too early to tell on him. Still waiting on breakout case from him and others.
Holy - No fucking clue---never played with him before. Some of the pseudo-anger displayed could be seen as townie but I don't really give it much weight---nitpicking Hapa seems really odd. Gonna have to look deeper on this.
Be back in a few hours.
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20-22
On January 22 2014 03:33 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 03:08 VisceraEyes wrote:
I want more austin. Waiter, can I get some more austinmcc plz? *dancing queen blares through the stadium* GOOD LORD, THAT'S HIS MUSIC (how could I not find a clip of this or something similar on youtube?) I'll give you two thoughts and then you can ask me whatever. (1) I think your specific point against prom is the...most specific point against anyone. Lotta "doesn't quite feel right" or "is asking vapid questions", but I wholeheartedly agree that these two posts Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 21 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. I was kinda hoping to role mafia with the all vanilla setup. They probably have the advantage regardless of who is playing. Wanna vote sandroba with me? He may or may not be scummy. lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita. Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll start slow and then start bringing the pain to scum. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
As far as I can tell, he doesn't respond to pressure on himself this early so it wouldn't matter.
I only offered that as an aside anyway, my main reason for not wanting to vote him is because I literally don't see one.
Hapa, do you see yourself getting shot N1 in this game? do not lead me to this justification from prom Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:52 Promethelax wrote:
WoS had a question that feels curious, in my experience curious people are more often town than scum. VE felt fluffy. WoS felt curious.
Reasonable? No.
True? Yes.
Often accurate? Yes. WoS's "question" doesn't concern sandroba, or sandroba play, and is a throwaway silly question anyway. I currently have the score 1-0 VE on the issue of whether Promethelax justified his treating your posts and WoS's posts on Sandroba differently. (2) I think all this Foolishness stuff is ... foolishness. He's typed 4.3 words. A big discussion of his alignment based on 4.3 words feels very filler-y, and like nobody can build any particularly strong read on the guy or his play this game. So I don't care about foolishness for now.
Bro bro, bro. BRO! WoS asked Hapa a question in a 'tone' that seemed curious to me. Which didn't do. That made VE more worth pressuring than Wave. It isn't a big point. It doesn't say a lot but I happen to believe that the question WoS posed Hapa is more likely to come from a town WoS than a scum one. So I went after VE. Along with that attacking VE was more likely to generate content in the thread which was my real goal since WoS is more likely to have a reasonable conversation with me while VE is more likely to do silly things and go crazy.
Crazy VE says crazy things. Those things can cause thread interaction to happen which is good.
Two reasons to accuse VE over WoS 1. VE seemed slightly more suspicious because WoS said one thing I liked while VE said 0 things I liked. and 2. VE is more likely to respond with OMGUSes and strange ideas which would, I hoped, jumpstart the thread.
On January 22 2014 05:00 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 04:55 sandroba wrote:On January 22 2014 04:47 austinmcc wrote:On January 22 2014 04:44 sandroba wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too. So you think WoS shows some sort of curiousity or curious question, especially concerning you, around that time? Beyond dat, any gold mined from entrance posts? He doesn't care about me at that time, as there is no reason to. The points he raises about prom's post later pretty much are the same thoughts I had when I read it, so I don't think he merits my attention so far. Nothing besides prom and maaaybe gonzaw. Okeedoke. Maybe we're working in two directions here. I'm mostly poking at the VE/Prome interaction, not a WoS/Prome interaction. VE asks Prome why Prome kinda on VE's case about saying you're not gonna respond to pressure, bla bla, whatever, but is NOT on WoS's case when WoS says you're not gonna respond to pressure, bla bla, whatever. Prome says Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:52 Promethelax wrote:
WoS had a question that feels curious, in my experience curious people are more often town than scum. VE felt fluffy. WoS felt curious.
Reasonable? No.
True? Yes.
Often accurate? Yes. If you don't think WoS cares about you, and I pretty much agree that he's not racking his brain for magical Sandroba thoughts, then you think Promethelax is manufacturing his distinction, given that WoS isn't actually curious about you or anything? Or you simply don't care about this Prome/VE interaction at all, or don't care about Prome's reasons, or any other "I am Sandroba and I don't really put much stock into this VE/Prome stuff" I'm not looking at WoS with this, or WoS/Prome, so much as I'm trying to zero in on the singular post by Prome where he says WoS asks this curious question which I cannot find.
because I was pressuring VE who felt wrong and not WoS who did not feel wrong. I really don't understand what it is that I need to explain more. WoS had the same thoughts as VE but had a thing that made me think he was WoS there was nothing to suggest that it was VE and not VE so I pressured VE and not WoS.
/logic
okay, I'm done responding to this point because I think I've explained it enough for you to get. If you have another reason to accuse me I'm happy to hear it but this one is played out either you buy my explanation or you don't. I can't explain it more because I've done it two or three ways already and, well, that is all I've got. If you don't believe me lynch me and if you do believe me stop trying to lynch me over this. Find something else worth lynching me for or don't.
On January 22 2014 06:00 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it.
Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? This is such a strange question. 1) Why are you talking about him spending so much time on foolishness, when you haven't addressed any of his arguments? Especially... you know... the largest post in the thread currently? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#3592) What is relevant about gonzaw's style so far? He's posted the most content in the thread and has done the most scumhunting of anyone. I don't know how you could raise any questions about his style given what he's posted. 3) Your attitude on Foolishness makes no goddamn sense. In this post, you're deflecting attention from him and puzzled on how gonzaw could spend time on him. ...yet in your posts addressed to me, you repeatedly call foolishness sketchy, scummy, and are generally suspicious of him and his sparse posting. What gives?
I was writing up a thing but I'ma just +1 this post instead.
Right now, no order within the lists:
Hapa
Marv
WoS
Gonzaw
VE
Sandroba
Austin
Kita
Holy
Fool
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23-25
I left out Fool's 'case' as I want to address it on its own.
On January 22 2014 07:05 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:54 austinmcc wrote:On January 22 2014 06:35 gonzaw wrote:
Then you have people like Holy or austin saying "Leave Foo alone! You can't do anything until he posts more!". That is what I call bullshit. Can't speak for holy, but with me, it's that given the full menu of anything anyone could be doing, discussion of Foolishness's alignment doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't personally feel confident about reading THOSE 3-4 posts as alignment indicative, and don't feel comfortable with reading Foolishness right now. I don't understand anyone else feeling like the BEST read they can get on some scummy dudes is Foolishness. Mainly though, it seems like...good material for scum to post on. Weigh in that he's town, scum, a crocodile, whatever. You can say whatever you want about Foolishness, discuss his alignment until you're blue in the face, but really it comes down to "I think this thing about these 3-4 trolly/nothingposts." Given that, I think it's a more productive topic for scum (they get to post, give reads, but I don't anticipate anyone being lynched later on based primarily/heavily on whatever stance they took on Foolishness right at this second), than it is for town. That's why I don't think discussion should be centered on Foolishness, or heavily concerned with him. I care somewhat about him and his posting, but mainly it feels like a topic that allows mafia to freely post and keep discussion on Foolishness. The thing is, that when it comes down to Foo', his 3-4 posts are indeed alignment indicative. I also feel, that if Foo is town, unless there is a huge town mob against him they wouldn't really think about going against him. I mean, Town Foo is Town Foo, he'll get those scummers. Would you, as scum, freely go against a Town Foo, for Town Foo later to catch you and crucify you? If Foo is somehow town, then he did leave himself open for scum to have "good material to post on", but I don't think a scummer would feel so confident on going against him like he'd do any random lurker from any other random game. Also, at the very worst, follow this maxim: Sheep marv  Anyways....I kind of feel biased towards this whole "scum Foo" thing, maybe with my VE and Holy reads as well (which interestingly are related to the Foolishness thing as well). I would appreciate new takes on those 2 from other people.
I like the idea of this post but I don't agree with it. Gonzaw: there isn't one town player here who is incapable of bringing the pain to a scum team. In a game where you and I are on the bottom rung in terms of ability there isn't an easy player to go after. In fact Foolish may be one of the easiest since he is lurking so far and is known to do so as scum. If foolish is town I would expect scum to be all over that. They get to lynch a powerful townie (one of those top rung bastards) and appear involved and active. Were I scum and I knew Fool to be town I would be on him this game.
On January 22 2014 07:57 marvellosity wrote:
although apparently i'm the only one who has a hardon for gonzaw right now :/
I do too. Loving his posting so far and I know he can't keep it up as scum (look at LIX) so I'm pretty confident that he is either town or about to reveal himself as scum. Much more likely town.
On January 22 2014 09:41 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote:
All my posts and every word I write has a distinct purpose. I don't have time to waste.
I hope you have some more time to waste on me, because I'm keeping my vote on you until I'm convinced you are town or that someone else is more likely scum than you. You could try expanding more on Holy for example, maybe with new stuff that makes you think he's scum. You can also start by answering some of the stuff I asked you about (those which you haven't answered already). W need Prome and WOS in here... ...and VE. Where the hell did VE go? I'm not entirely sure where you guys get your town read on him. He's, at best, unreadable to me. Can't really figure out how some of you can get that much of a town read on him. Hapa, marv, etc, can you back some of your stuff up with posts from his previous games or something perhaps? For example, this... Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 08:27 Hapahauli wrote:On January 21 2014 13:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think if he's town he's biased and it's bullshit to be so biased already, but whatever. It makes him more likely to be scum to me, but no, I'm reading him as town presently. This is a mentality spot on for a townie who thinks he's being unfairly tunneled. Very genuine, and something I'd expect from a town VE. ...doesn't really convince me. For instance, ever since this post ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=15#293 ) he hasn't had a single suspicion on anybody, yet had 1 more page in his filter of posts (he backs out of his Prome scum read)
With Gonzaw on this one: it is indicative of a player who thinks they are being unfairly accused over another player but I've seen it from both scum and town.
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On January 22 2014 10:27 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:On January 22 2014 10:06 Holyflare wrote:On January 22 2014 10:02 Hapahauli wrote:
Holy, can we start talking about your scumreads? I literally have no idea where you stand on me or anyone else. I would love to do this but it's 1am so i will elaborate on EVERYTHING when i wake up (even if it means knocking out my gf so i can use her pc) You can't take 5 minutes to give us one read? I don't feel comfortable at all just posting names without elaborating the why's. It was originally you and gonzaw though but that has been dropping down and down based on replies. I honestly am very limited on time in general (all my posts are from my phone since the start) so when i have to defend myself the elaborating drops a lot. Promise to do it in the morning though.
Just putting this in my filter to remind myself to keep an eye on guilty promises. I hate this kind of post and if Holy is alive later in the game someone needs to hold him to his promises.
Promises of things to come always rub me the wrong way and this was no exception.
On January 23 2014 00:05 kitaman27 wrote:
Prom, are you going to be posting a lot within the next hour? If so, I'll move on to Holy and come back to you.
Yea, posty posty lemon roasty. I'm around for a while. Not to sure on when I'll stop being around since I get a snow day from school and my fiance gets a snowday from work I may just vanish into the thin air of actually going on a date.
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On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote:Here's what I think is going on this game. There are quite a few questionable people in this game, but by eliminating some obvious town players things start to make more sense. Towniest of townsHapa VE Kitaman Hapa is by far the most town person in this game? Why, put simply if you read his filter he is here, he is active and he is pushing pro-town agendas. This is seen because he is generating conversation, trying to organize the town and get everyone on the same page, and questioning suspicious players where appropriate. This is not a matter of debate if you have read the thread. Kitaman is similar in matter and this has already been brought to light by a few players. Actually when I started reading the game yesterday his posting reminded me a lot of myself. Slight trolly attitude to try to get things moving, but when push came to shove he was there to call people out on their shit. Now, if you want to read into that and say, "But Foolishness, Kitaman is usually a strong analyzer, posting paragraphs of information and analysis about a person's behavior and actions" I got nothing to say back about that yet. Though I'm sure time will confirm what I think here. The thing with VE is that yes, on his own some of his posts are suspicious. This one in particular made me raise an eyebrow: + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him?
That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all.
If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned. where the first two paragraphs seem really out of place and forced, though the last two sentences of the post read very town. However I think if you just read through his filter and analyze it as a whole there's nothing to be afraid of. Is he pushing any sort of mafia agenda? No. Does it feel like he doesn't have the town's best interest in mind? No. Does it feel like he's actually trying to figure things out? Yes. Now I can see why some people have shed some suspicion on him (unlike anyone calling Hapa or Kita mafia), but he just does not feel mafia, and he's definitely interested in the game. Questionable playersAustin sandroba marvellosity Holyflare Gonzaw This is roughly in order of most to least town. Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread, and it is also obvious that if they continue their activity then they are town. If they keep going afk for long periods of time then start to worry. But I don't feel like that will happen. The following 3 people are all in the ? category. Marvellosity and Holyflare in particular because for all that they have said I don't feel they have really contributed much. Even as I'm writing this I'm thinking back, "what has marvellosity or holyflare done this game", and I cannot remember a single post they have made. That's a bad sign. Anything mafia indicative off the bat? No so much, but then seem to be here without actually being here. Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that. mafiaPromethelax WaveOfShadow I will go into a little more detail here. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum.
One of these days I will have another scumgame; it seems that day is not today.
Holy! Where you at? I've never played a non-voice game with you before. Let's do something.
What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are). And then there's this post as well. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something.
Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers.
It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen.
I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies.
And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum.
Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money.
So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. I don't think lurkers will be an issue in this game. I'm really confused by your opener though...you want to discuss policy and then you state right after that you don't want to discuss it? Like...discussion of policy on its own isn't scummy imo but why did you go about it so awkwardly? I do agree with the non-aggression thing, but no offense---I'd imagine you'd have to be one of the primary people to agree with that (and it seems as though you have?) Now onto more important details: why specifically Hapa? Do you two have a history? Is he going to want to make a case on you at all, never mind find something specific in this post of yours in order to make one? Which fails to do nothing but ask more questions of which he never followed through on (neither of them really followed through on to be honest), when he could do have done something like actively push Promethelax to say something of substance. The thing about Promethelax is that his first post is a big pile of words and nobody said anything about it besides WoS which was just a passing remark. Here's the post again: + Show Spoiler +On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something.
Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers.
It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen.
I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies.
And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum.
Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money.
So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. Promethelax even admits that his post is awful and that we should call him out on it. Sounds great to me! This kinda bait is definitely a mafia trait and if he thinks he's posting bad then we should definitely lynch him for it. The reason being, if he knows his post his bad why is he making it in the first place? His initial post accomplishes nothing and says nothing and only adds fluff to the thread. I am also bothered by his most recent thread post: Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 22:42 Promethelax wrote:On January 21 2014 19:25 marvellosity wrote:On January 21 2014 13:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
It's just one of those things that may or may not end up adding up to something. Prome's thing is worse to me because he literally made up reasoning to respond to me. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Fluffy? What does that even mean? You don't think Prome is being typical arch-bullshitter as per usual? Sometimes it worries me that you and I know each other so well when it comes to this game. Sometimes it makes me warm and fuzzy. People I don't like: Foolishness (total lack of justification and his total dismissal of VE/Hapa as townie v townie, both of them are totally capable of what they have done so far as scum and to just not be interested in them at all is scummy) Kita (said "I don't call people scummy early because it makes people listen to me less later" which isn't true and so totally wired that it rings scummy since I cannot figure out what it gives a town Kita while it does provide some benefit to a scum Kita.) People who are Gonzaw but haven't posted Gonzaw like posts after fluff o'clock : Gonzaw Because all his reads feel very convenient. There is nothing in his filter that gives us new information or his original thoughts. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, honestly Promethelax is the best lynch right now because the case on him is the strongest, but I need to hear opinions on WaveOfShadow while we have the time.
Who we are lynching today: Promethelax, WaveOfShadow. If they died probably not a huge loss: marvellosity, HolyFlare, Gonzaw Everyone else deserves to live another day at the least.
There isn't much to address in this case. Which is why I got all snarky and called it a 'case' in my earlier post. Fool doesn't like that my early game play was early gmae-ish and, since I have addressed my reasoning for that play and I still believe it was both good and the right play I can't say much about it here.
Yes my first post was bad. It always is. Which is why I'm aware of it. Foolish has played at least one and maybe more games with me and should know that a bad first post is as much my meta as calling VE a butt licker is (I"m sorry WoS! I know I said I'd be nice but I had to slip one in).
I do find Foolish townier from this post since his reads are generally good but his lack of sight when it comes to Gonzaw is worrying. He places Kita and VE waaaaaay too high and Gonzaw much too low in a way that has me worried since, as Supersoft once said to me, when you are in a game with a bunch of good players you can tell the scum because he is the one whose reads don't line up with everyone else'.
I also don't see the reason to attack WoS and just as Fool thinks my targets were easy so were his. He went for the lynch d'jour (me) and the one guy he had called scum earlier (WoS). It seems almost too easy a big post and his lack of other contribution means that while he has taken himself off the table as a good lynch he has not in any way convinced me of his townieness.
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Update: my library is closing right now due to snow. More posting will be postponed until an undefined time in the future.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On January 23 2014 00:56 Promethelax wrote:
Update: my library is closing right now due to snow. More posting will be postponed until an undefined time in the future.
Just don't try to get away with never returning to the thread with a vote on me 
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
It seems pretty apparent that Holy hasn't put a lot of time into the game yet. However, this is the set of posts that draw my attention the most:
On January 22 2014 08:53 Holyflare wrote:
The ending of this post is singlehandedly the most misconstrued post against me I've seen in a long while.
On January 22 2014 08:53 Holyflare wrote:
you have written at much more length about me and haven't bothered to check how I write, why is that?
On January 22 2014 08:53 Holyflare wrote:
The remaining quotes are so heavily taken out of context and misconstrued that I find it hard to believe that you follow the train of thought you have written.
On January 22 2014 10:01 Holyflare wrote:
Why is everything you say a bastardisation of what is actually written?
On January 22 2014 10:01 Holyflare wrote:
Why have you overblown it into something it quite clearly is not??
These posts clearly suggest that Holyflare thinks that gonzaw is manipulating his posts. The thing that I find scummy about his response is that he never comes to a conclusion about gonzaw's alignment. He suggests that gonzaw is putting forth a biased argument and is being lazy in his research, yet isn't willing to say if he thinks it is mafia motivated or a misguided town. Based on the strong characterization he is giving gonzaw's posts, I would think that he would indeed have a mafia read on him, by a half an hour after the last set of quotes, it seems like that might not be the case.
On January 22 2014 10:27 Holyflare wrote:
Promise to do it in the morning though.
He has failed to follow through with this promise as the morning is over in the UK.
I don't like that a player with limited time felt that the most efficient thing to do with his time was to write a couple of defense posts.
Looking at his past town and mafia games, I don't draw many parallels to either alignment. His activity is much greater in both sides. I do not find gonzaw's case particularly compelling. Aggressiveness can be a town trait, just as much as mafia. He took a similar stance on Foolishness as I did, preferring to discuss gonzaw since he was present in the thread, although we differed in my preference to put a vote on Foolishness even if I was going to wait on him. Overall, I feel that the defensive post against gonzaw looks worse than his earlier posts. My opinion on him will likely change based on his return to the thread, similar to sandroba.
Right now I'm leaning scummy null. Likely doing Wave next.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
austin, do you have a time frame for when you plan to make additional posts?
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I could MAYBE vote for HolyFlare. I'm teetering on the cusp of voting for Foolishness.
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Kitaman your list of potential mafia pair candidates is missing from your recent posts. Have you given up on Combinatronics already?
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Kay I'm back.
Arg, now Prome reads town to me. What to do what to do.
Also kind of forgot austin was playing this game, I'm eager to see his lynch push of the day.
There's something weirdly interesting about the Holy issue. It seems contradictory in a sense.
First, okay, yes, he did scummy shit; but that's irrelevant to my point. What happened, is that basically everybody is suspicious of him or accusing him. Not a single soul is defending him.
I counted myself, marv, kita, Prome, Hapa and Foo basically saying "yeh he likely scum", and nobody else is defending him, just saying "I dunno" or "maybe I could vote for him".
It's weird, in the sense....that if he's scum somebody would defend him, right? But then comes the other interesting part: he has not a single vote on him.
I mean, think about it. I basically straight up called him scum. Hapa too. kita now does too. Foo said "Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that". Prome agreed with Hapa and mentioned other stuff. Yet, not a single one of those (myself included) put a vote on him yet. Not only that, not a single one of the other people "not sure" or whatever put a vote on him either.
I can imagine 2 scenarios: There is scum in those guys I mention, and there is scum in the guys NOT mentioned (like sandro, austin, WOS). If the guys I mentioned are scum, and Holy town, then surely they have an easy target right? They can park their vote on Holy, and be totally fine since 80% of the thread is against Holy (unless they don't want to be the first ones to do it or some shit).
If the other guys I mentioned are scum (or rather, there is scum among them), then wouldn't this also be a good chance to park a vote on Holy? All the town "heavyweights" (who are pushing Holy) agree with a Holy lynch, so if you are austin scum, or WOS scum, or maybe sandro scum, or VE scum, etc, wouldn't you be VERY comfortable parking a vote on him? It's much more easier to pick Holy than to act "clueless town" and basically engage the thread in discussions and the like.
So, why is nothing like that happening?
I think this can make it more likely Holy is scum, based on how the thread is interacting with him. That would make sense, the townies find him scummy, and the scum are slightly bussing him (since Holy isn't even voted yet), or leaving the door open to bus him (if, for instance, VE or WOS are scum).
I'll see what you guys think. I think a Holy lynch might actually be a good D1 lynch....but then again I think a D1 Foo lynch seems good too, and I don't want to "save" a scum Foolishness from today's lynch (if he is indeed scum).
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Wave's style always bothers me since it seems like he plays less confident than he should be. Generally lack of confidence is something you look for in newbie mafia players or town players who are unable to get a good handle on the current game.
As a general heuristic, I think mafia players are more likely to announce that they are have rolled town than town players. Wave isn't alone in doing so and it probably isn't more accurate than 60/40, but it's in the back of my mind. "gonna go with my usual opener" suggests that he is thinking about how he wants to enter the thread, rather than simply commenting on something.
On January 21 2014 11:41 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. Now onto more important details: why specifically Hapa? Do you two have a history? Is he going to want to make a case on you at all, never mind find something specific in this post of yours in order to make one?
As town, I have absolutely no interest in why Hapa would make a case against Prom. It's pretty obvious that it must be a reference to past games, though I don't really care to hear about it. It's not clear what Wave hopes to gain out of a response here, which suggests we have a different mind frame, but this is hardly enough to justify a vote either. Looking through his past games, his town play and single mafia game seems pretty consistent with all the one line questions. I don't think I'm going to take this into account when evaluating Wave. The first thing that popped out about his single mafia game was the number of expletives he used, which Foolishness also pointed out. While it doesn't take a town player to notice that, at least it seems like we're seeing the same thing.
On January 22 2014 09:57 WaveofShadow wrote:
Not finding anything damning is meh, because people find terrible reasons to look and compare to my meta every game, but there's an inherent problem with looking at my meta that you really should realize, Foolishness. I have played ONE scumgame. One game does not a sample size make, ESPECIALLY one game played what, 7 months ago? Do you honestly feel it would be accurate to make a comparison of my meta in any way to a sole scumgame when I have changed things about my TOWN play multiple times since then? The last person I can think of who tried to make bad meta arguments against me was Palmar in Thug Life I believe. Oh and by the way, if you think I don't swear as town, you should check out Thug Life for another reason. Bad meta thoughts here are real bad.
I'm not sure what the purpose of this post is. Foolishness essentially admits that he wasn't able to find a valid meta comparison. Wave then proceeded to explain why the meta comparisons are bad. Okay, fine he might swear in town games and mafia games, but nobody was saying that he is mafia because based on this reason. Who exactly is he defending himself against? Similar to Holy, Wave's largest post is defensive in nature. I'm willing to give wave a bit more leeway since at least there are a few thoughts he shares opinions on.
I'm somewhat frustrated by his unwillingness to share reads without engaging in a direct conversation. I can understand if that is your preferred method of scumhunting, but at some point you have to go by what has been posted in the thread, even if you're not involved. This is more someone that I'm annoyed about, rather than a tie to alignment.
The cost of rolling anti-town several times in a row is that players seem to be less likely to trust you going forward. From my perspective, I think I've been more open with my opinion than most others, yet wave still views me as the greatest threat. I'm willing to consider that he is a paranoid townie if he shows interest in other individuals. If he continues to stick to one single player throughout the cycle, I think it's more likely that he is mafia.
While there are a few things that I have nitpicked about, there isn't any obvious mafia agenda yet. He could be playing a survivalist style where he doesn't have a strong thread presence and just cares about avoiding the noose, but I don't see a strong case for a lynch yet. I really wish he would comment on more individuals, even if he needs to make a list post. I need to see what he is thinking, even if he is unsure. Leaning townie null.
Foolishness has been absent from the conversation again. He said he wanted to hear others thoughts on Wave, so I want to hear from him if he is seeing anything from him that is malicious in nature.
I'm sure you will all be disappointed, but I'm putting the combinitorics on hold until at least tonight. I started putting a few together, but it became clear that I wasn't going to come up with a small enough list to have any value in today's lynch.
I'm seeing a lot of town reads from VE so I haven't really looked into him, but his play has dropped off, which is a concern. I'm still worried about the lack of direction from marv and austin.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On January 23 2014 02:29 gonzaw wrote:
Kay I'm back.
Arg, now Prome reads town to me. What to do what to do.
Also kind of forgot austin was playing this game, I'm eager to see his lynch push of the day.
There's something weirdly interesting about the Holy issue. It seems contradictory in a sense.
First, okay, yes, he did scummy shit; but that's irrelevant to my point. What happened, is that basically everybody is suspicious of him or accusing him. Not a single soul is defending him.
I counted myself, marv, kita, Prome, Hapa and Foo basically saying "yeh he likely scum", and nobody else is defending him, just saying "I dunno" or "maybe I could vote for him".
It's weird, in the sense....that if he's scum somebody would defend him, right? But then comes the other interesting part: he has not a single vote on him.
I mean, think about it. I basically straight up called him scum. Hapa too. kita now does too. Foo said "Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that". Prome agreed with Hapa and mentioned other stuff. Yet, not a single one of those (myself included) put a vote on him yet. Not only that, not a single one of the other people "not sure" or whatever put a vote on him either.
I can imagine 2 scenarios: There is scum in those guys I mention, and there is scum in the guys NOT mentioned (like sandro, austin, WOS). If the guys I mentioned are scum, and Holy town, then surely they have an easy target right? They can park their vote on Holy, and be totally fine since 80% of the thread is against Holy (unless they don't want to be the first ones to do it or some shit).
If the other guys I mentioned are scum (or rather, there is scum among them), then wouldn't this also be a good chance to park a vote on Holy? All the town "heavyweights" (who are pushing Holy) agree with a Holy lynch, so if you are austin scum, or WOS scum, or maybe sandro scum, or VE scum, etc, wouldn't you be VERY comfortable parking a vote on him? It's much more easier to pick Holy than to act "clueless town" and basically engage the thread in discussions and the like.
So, why is nothing like that happening?
I think this can make it more likely Holy is scum, based on how the thread is interacting with him. That would make sense, the townies find him scummy, and the scum are slightly bussing him (since Holy isn't even voted yet), or leaving the door open to bus him (if, for instance, VE or WOS are scum).
I'll see what you guys think. I think a Holy lynch might actually be a good D1 lynch....but then again I think a D1 Foo lynch seems good too, and I don't want to "save" a scum Foolishness from today's lynch (if he is indeed scum).
I agree with what you said above and below the line
##Vote: Holyflare
what now?
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Actually, coming back to Foolishness, another funny thing:
On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote:
Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that.
I wanted Foo to clarify this, but since he didn't (figure that out), I'll just basically guess what he means, on basically the only thing that makes sense for him to think.
So, I called Foo scum, but didn't vote him until later right? Foolishness mentions that I was mafia to him, until I voted. I can only take this means that he finds it very scummy that someone accuses someone else, but doesn't vote him, and just keeps talking about shit.
So far so good? Okay
Now we come back to these:
On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 07:42 marvellosity wrote:
Foolish I'm curious if you've looked at any of WoS's meta at all? Yes I did that yesterday when I first accused him. However I did not find anything really damning on that front. He's only had one game as mafia here and there weren't any glaring similarities to that. For example, when WoS was mafia he swore a ton (just skim through his posts and you will see that) but when he's town that kind of attitude is absent. Also feels like he might be slightly more trolly when he's mafia. I'm still suspicious of him and want to clear the air on him now and not later because as I said in my previous posts he made a lot of generic statements and had opportunities to answer questions and instead only gave more questions to the thread. And a part of me does feel that his interaction with Promethelax says that at most one of them is mafia. I may be reading into that too much. Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 08:00 gonzaw wrote:I thought my previous sexy posts already made me town by then kita  Hmm, okay, I think we might get a little bit off track with all the discussions, questions, and shit going on. Personally, I want these: 1)Foolishness to do something more (I'm not very much convinced by his post. I read the Champion's Game as well marv). Notice how there's a lack of defense for his "horrible" posts. 2)Get some consensus on Holy based on what I posted 3)I guess some real talk about who to lynch this D1, not just fleeting questions and suspicions. All my posts and every word I write has a distinct purpose. I don't have time to waste. At this moment I feel that Promethelax or HolyFlare should be lynched today. Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that. HolyFlare's defense did feel a bit contrived and forced? He did bring up some good points but at the same time I don't feel like he said all that much. That may just be confirmation bias at this point though. I had HolyFlare on my question mark list since yesterday because as I said it felt like he was here posting but I couldn't remember anything he did and that is troublesome. Gonzaw I brought my arguments against you when you brought forth the analysis against me and I still stand by what I said. However I would not lynch you since you are actually here and posting and bring new information to the thread (and not just information about Holyflare either). There's no reason to doubt your alignment at this point especially if this posting rate keeps up. Same with Austin as well. I still stand by that marvellosity is a big mystery this game. He's not our lynch today but everyone should have at least one eye on him.
It's funny how he thought I was almost mafia for not putting my vote on him (i.e I was mafia until I did vote him, then I became less suspicious), yet he's doing exactly the same thing.
Here is his vote, if you remember:
On January 21 2014 15:41 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum.
One of these days I will have another scumgame; it seems that day is not today.
Holy! Where you at? I've never played a non-voice game with you before. Let's do something.
This game just got a whole lot easier. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow
He says he wants Prome and/or Holy lynched, yet his vote is from 18 hours ago on a guy he biffle-waffles and doesn't even want lynched.
Yet he himself apparently thinks that is a mafia trait, since he used that argument against me (again, I'm assuming that's what he meant by his "scumread" on me). Scummy contradiction much?
...can we please lynch him? Pretty please? :3
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On January 23 2014 02:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 02:29 gonzaw wrote:
Kay I'm back.
Arg, now Prome reads town to me. What to do what to do.
Also kind of forgot austin was playing this game, I'm eager to see his lynch push of the day.
There's something weirdly interesting about the Holy issue. It seems contradictory in a sense.
First, okay, yes, he did scummy shit; but that's irrelevant to my point. What happened, is that basically everybody is suspicious of him or accusing him. Not a single soul is defending him.
I counted myself, marv, kita, Prome, Hapa and Foo basically saying "yeh he likely scum", and nobody else is defending him, just saying "I dunno" or "maybe I could vote for him".
It's weird, in the sense....that if he's scum somebody would defend him, right? But then comes the other interesting part: he has not a single vote on him.
I mean, think about it. I basically straight up called him scum. Hapa too. kita now does too. Foo said "Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that". Prome agreed with Hapa and mentioned other stuff. Yet, not a single one of those (myself included) put a vote on him yet. Not only that, not a single one of the other people "not sure" or whatever put a vote on him either.
I can imagine 2 scenarios: There is scum in those guys I mention, and there is scum in the guys NOT mentioned (like sandro, austin, WOS). If the guys I mentioned are scum, and Holy town, then surely they have an easy target right? They can park their vote on Holy, and be totally fine since 80% of the thread is against Holy (unless they don't want to be the first ones to do it or some shit).
If the other guys I mentioned are scum (or rather, there is scum among them), then wouldn't this also be a good chance to park a vote on Holy? All the town "heavyweights" (who are pushing Holy) agree with a Holy lynch, so if you are austin scum, or WOS scum, or maybe sandro scum, or VE scum, etc, wouldn't you be VERY comfortable parking a vote on him? It's much more easier to pick Holy than to act "clueless town" and basically engage the thread in discussions and the like.
So, why is nothing like that happening?
I think this can make it more likely Holy is scum, based on how the thread is interacting with him. That would make sense, the townies find him scummy, and the scum are slightly bussing him (since Holy isn't even voted yet), or leaving the door open to bus him (if, for instance, VE or WOS are scum).
I'll see what you guys think. I think a Holy lynch might actually be a good D1 lynch....but then again I think a D1 Foo lynch seems good too, and I don't want to "save" a scum Foolishness from today's lynch (if he is indeed scum). I agree with what you said above and below the line ##Vote: Holyflarewhat now?
EHmm...we lynch Foolishness?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
gonzaw, your logic is, as always, infallible
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I dunno actually, I'm in some sort of standby. I think my own argument up there is convincing, and if Foo wasn't in this game with my read on him I'd have voted Holy a long time ago.
But then again, there is Foo, who is not doing anything to make me think he's town. I also have this "urge" to always catch a scum Foo.
Like, in Obs QT and the like, I catch a scum Foo, but everybody else in the game ignores him. Then I yell at them "BUT HES OBVIOUS SCUM WHY DO YOU KEEP HIM ALIVE!?". I have that same feeling of "catching" him, albeit slightly less (mostly because he has done less and made less posts and the game isn't fully developed).
I don't want to be hypocrite, and let a scum Foo live until LYLO or some shit, when I KNOW I want to lynch scum Foo right now.
But maybe it isn't optimal town play perhaps...I dunno.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Optimal townplay is simply lynching mafia, don't overthink that shiz
how much is "slightly less"? actually slightly less? no sarcastic response, you earned such a question :p
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On January 22 2014 22:53 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:49 kitaman27 wrote:
I'd much rather hear who marv is considering voting, rather than defending a player he thinks is town.
Wave looks better, for obvious reasons
Could you expand on this, even if it's brief? I didn't pick up on the obvious reason. Mine read was more based on the lack of anything wrong, rather than an abundance of anything he has done that is helpful.
Also, could you justify your Holyflare vote for me with specifics? You mention that you thought gonzaw's points were good. Is that what you're going by or is the vote mostly due to his absence from the thread?
I currently don't have a strong preference between sandroba and Holyflare and it seems like sandroba hasn't been inspired to rejoin the thread. I'll vote with you for the time being.
##Unvote
##Vote Holyflare
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EPT
